On this day a year ago, Plunge was taken from us (and other Job Identity)

Plunge, Spineshatter dive (and Endwalker Dragoon in general), could easily be restored in 7.3 in a couple of months. That's a good way to win back player trust. It will have to be done eventually so there's no reason not to spend a tiny amount of dev resource restoring these jobs to their true form now. We're also going to need Summoner back (including permanently deleting Solar Bahamut) by 8.0 release at latest.

There's a good lad

Screw Plunge, i want the 1200 mana added back into Blood Weapon

I liked Plunge but I understand why they did these things:

1. Opener on DRK is still busy enough as it is.
2. The animation delay on it meant you didn't necessarily jump right away, whereas the new version does. The new version doesn't bother with these animations so it can be more speedy. Was never a problem for me though.
3. I suppose a third reason from their perspective is if it's not doing damage, it doesn't make sense to look like you're plunging your sword into the enemy. I think they should stop caring about this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

1. Opener on DRK is still busy enough as it is.

---

This one is honestly quite understandable. Both Dark Knight and Gunbreaker already had issues fitting defensives in their weave slots if they coincided with burst windows in Endwalker.

But at the same time it is hilarious that they butchered Dark Knight's design in 5.0, seemingly due to Dark Arts spam, and then went on to introduce the exact same problem again but even worse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

2. The animation delay on it meant you didn't necessarily jump right away, whereas the new version does. The new version doesn't bother with these animations so it can be more speedy. Was never a problem for me though.

---

This has both negative and positive aspects. I would have to test the new gap closer in older fights but the way Plunge worked was what allowed you to, for example, negate being knocked off the train in O5S if timed correctly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mecia

Screw Plunge, i want the 1200 mana added back into Blood Weapon

---

I want spammable Abysall Drain :(

Jokes aside, yeah new gap closer is ass. For both DRK and GNB.

Having to save your movement utility to deal damage during your burst window was just awful design. While the new animations might not look as cool, removing the potency allows your movement utility to just be movement utility which is a huge W. They should do the same for PLD and WAR.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BigCheez

Having to save your movement utility to deal damage during your burst window was just awful design. While the new animations might not look as cool, removing the potency allows your movement utility to just be movement utility which is a huge W. They should do the same for PLD and WAR.

---

I dimly remember them saying that they were going to replace Intervene and Onslaught too, just that DRK and GNB were first in line because they had the busiest full burst windows. That being said, consolidating Blood Weapon and Delirium at the same time they removed Plunge left DRK with large timeframes between Delirium windows where it's almost nothing but 1-2-3-1-2-3 and whatever mitigation is needed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mecia

Screw Plunge, i want the 1200 mana added back into Blood Weapon

---

As much as I miss Plunge, THIS is the killer right here. Give me back my two extra stacks of Blood Weapon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daralii

I dimly remember them saying that they were going to replace Intervene and Onslaught too, just that DRK and GNB were first in line because they had the busiest full burst windows. That being said, consolidating Blood Weapon and Delirium at the same time they removed Plunge left DRK with large timeframes between Delirium windows where it's almost nothing but 1-2-3-1-2-3 and whatever mitigation is needed.

---

That was already the case before.
Delirium and Blood Weapon were already both on a 60s cooldown before the consolidation and while Plunge had two charges on 30s you wanted both of them in the 2-minute window anyway.

So Dark Knight in 6.X was suffering from way too crowded burst and nothing but 1-2-3 filler spam outside of it.

The two lost charges of Blood Weapon were the bigger issue with the consolidation, but that has mostly affected Dark Knight's TBN usage.

I'm enjoying my Ninja arc, but man I need Dragoon back so bad. Haven't touched the job (or what's left of it) since then.

No thanks, remove damage from all charge attacks
Add other abilities instead to make jobs more interesting. Mobility should never have to be sacrificed for damage imo
in drk's case i'd rather we see dark arts returned as its unique identity

i was heavily complaining when they changed plunge to shadowstride, atleast keep the plunge animation but no, they literally removed it except for pvp

the devs hate drk what can u do, just accept defeat and move on i m already planning to unsub after a certain incident happened in the new field operation content (was already mad how they implemented it) and i cant bother playing this game anymore since i mostly play drk, and visually drk looks hot garbage, heck rpr looks way flashier with those slash vfx and plays better thematically why bother playing drk anymore

Gap closers should have never been used to deal damage. Should we all have gap closers as tanks? Idfk honestly. But using them during burst to do more damage ruined the point of them being gap closers. I do think we should have more interesting class design, but this is the wrong hill to die on.

Also, i find it strange how everyone misses "plunge" but i dont see anyone talking about rough divide. Literally the same ability, but it gets no attention.

The suggested reasons for removing GNB/DRK jump were always incredibly weak. If they wanted to remove it from the basic rotation, just make it do no damage. Jumping on your target and doing 0 damage doesn't seem any weirder than Reprisal's 0 damage "stab your target and rip it out" debuff animation.

However, if damage was still super important to keep for these skills in particular, the alternative solution: keep GNB/DRK's jump with the potency, and simply make it unusable if you are too close to your target. It can function as an intended gap-closer, but running away from the boss to get the distance to use it again should be a DPS loss, and therefore not viable for rotations anymore.

I am sure the devs could have considered this solution. That they went ahead anyway and put resources to making inferior looking/sounding abilities, with worse animations, and less appropriate class theming, has me wondering if it wasn't a dev's personal pet project or something.

I don't think plunge was particularly unique, and I rather think all gap closers should be movement-only. I do miss dark side being a stance and requiring management though. That was absolutely a cool job identity.

If I had to pick between old Plunge or new Shadowstride, I'd go for the former. Wanna use it for dps? Go ahead. Wanna keep it for gapclosing? Do it. The options are there.

I very much dislike SE's tendencies to be a control freak on that front & resort in minimizing options... for what, exactly?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daralii

I dimly remember them saying that they were going to replace Intervene and Onslaught too, just that DRK and GNB were first in line because they had the busiest full burst windows. That being said, consolidating Blood Weapon and Delirium at the same time they removed Plunge left DRK with large timeframes between Delirium windows where it's almost nothing but 1-2-3-1-2-3 and whatever mitigation is needed.

---

Honestly they need to remove the damage from all the gap closers and could probably get away with adding something else to them to make it a use case. Like another minor short duration barrier/mit or a utility like an interrupt or stun so they still have some thinking in their use.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reimmi

No thanks, remove damage from all charge attacks
Add other abilities instead to make jobs more interesting. Mobility should never have to be sacrificed for damage imo
in drk's case i'd rather we see dark arts returned as its unique identity

---

It's the damage that has to be sacrified for mobility, and not mobility that you sacrifice for damage. If you're doing the latter you're playing the job wrong.
It's exactly like a BLM telling you they're going to keep their mobility tools for burst when they actually need them outside to move... Oh wait, they made triplecast being a damage gain irrelevant last patch. Well I guess there is other examples like Energy Drain...
Opportunity cost design and all that. Has pros and cons for sure, when fights turn into big memorization spreadsheets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

3. I suppose a third reason from their perspective is if it's not doing damage, it doesn't make sense to look like you're plunging your sword into the enemy. I think they should stop caring about this.

---

Well, I guess they completely forgot about BRD's Repelling shot still named like a damaging action while just a leap.

I was going to comment my own take, but it kind of became a mini rant of job design in general. So here is just my view on plunge nothing else.

Plunge wasn't a dash for me. It was an attack button that was fun. I liked mixing in plunge because it was fun. Plunge is fun while Shadowstride isn't.
To be honest if they really want to give every job a dash than make a universal dash skill in the Role Actions that just moves you forward.
I just miss doing a helm splitter with a giant sword instead of just sliding along the floor.

Still don't get the argument about busy opener regarding Plunge.

All in all, it was a thematically fun ability that felt satisfying to use. Same with shoulder tackle for monk.

But they removed them in favour of abilities that are both less visually interesting and lacks any form of impact.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TKMXIV

I was going to comment my own take, but it kind of became a mini rant of job design in general. So here is just my view on plunge nothing else.

Plunge wasn't a dash for me. It was an attack button that was fun. I liked mixing in plunge because it was fun. Plunge is fun while Shadowstride isn't.
To be honest if they really want to give every job a dash than make a universal dash skill in the Role Actions that just moves you forward.
I just miss doing a helm splitter with a giant sword instead of just sliding along the floor.

---

Precisely. It was just fun to use. After all DRK is about as borderline insane as warrior, so leaping into the fray was right up their alley.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Precisely. It was just fun to use. After all DRK is about as borderline insane as warrior, so leaping into the fray was right up their alley.

---

It was. https://imgur.com/a/XlAzC7q Short clip of 40+ DRKs using Plunge all at once, taken a few weeks before DT came out. Who DOESN'T want to fly into battle sword-first? Way more fun than teleporting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TKMXIV

I was going to comment my own take, but it kind of became a mini rant of job design in general. So here is just my view on plunge nothing else.

Plunge wasn't a dash for me. It was an attack button that was fun. I liked mixing in plunge because it was fun. Plunge is fun while Shadowstride isn't.
To be honest if they really want to give every job a dash than make a universal dash skill in the Role Actions that just moves you forward.
I just miss doing a helm splitter with a giant sword instead of just sliding along the floor.

---

Straight up, all dashes should just be omni-directional at this point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atreus

Straight up, all dashes should just be omni-directional at this point.

---

It's probably for the best that a tank can't accidentally (or "accidentally") drop a tankbuster into a crowd of players by fat-fingering a dash. As funny as that would be. Have to do it the old-fashioned way and use sprint.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Astronis

It's probably for the best that a tank can't accidentally (or "accidentally") drop a tankbuster into a crowd of players by fat-fingering a dash. As funny as that would be.

---

Who would do that haha not me...

But on the real, doesn't Rescue hold the same kind of power? Or a DNC/RPR deciding to bring their mechanic to another player?

Plunge is still in pvp by the way and it even has Sole Survivor baked into it. What's not to like?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

Plunge is still in pvp by the way and it even has Sole Survivor baked into it. What's not to like?

---

Everything, unless that was sarcasm. Your movement tools being tied to a major function of the job is extremely limiting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atreus

Everything, unless that was sarcasm. Your movement tools being tied to a major function of the job is extremely limiting.

---

Its not just a movement tool in PVP - it can be used to either initiate a fight, or as an execution skill (potentially even both), since if your target dies, the cooldown of Plunge gets refunded. The PVP version of Plunge is very fun and satisfying to use.

Blood weapon stacks are the real issue here. Taking 1200 mana from DRK effectively slighly lowers mitigation possibilities and upgraded Shadow Wall is not enough considering all the other tanks got a better 40%.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atreus

Everything, unless that was sarcasm. Your movement tools being tied to a major function of the job is extremely limiting.

---

Pvp is all about choices. You can't have your cake and eat it, and it's a core thing in many job toolkits.
PLD has a dash that stuns: the player uses its brain to decide whether or not they need to dash outside of kill/burst opportunities, or if there is a target that needs being stunned right now, and the dash provides the gap closing to apply damage just after and it's the same for Plunge.
DNC generates its procs by dashing as well: dash too much and you'll overwrite things and lose firepower.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

Pvp is all about choices. You can't have your cake and eat it, and it's a core thing in many job toolkits.
PLD has a dash that stuns: the player uses its brain to decide whether or not they need to dash outside of kill/burst opportunities, or if there is a target that needs being stunned right now, and the dash provides the gap closing to apply damage just after and it's the same for Plunge.
DNC generates its procs by dashing as well: dash too much and you'll overwrite things and lose firepower.

---

Phew, thank god I had you two to explain that to me and not the years of competitive LP! It still can be designed better. EW PLD dash was better. Separating stun into shield bash was better. GNB dashes are better, full stop.

If a job action, in concert with encounter design and players' abilities, encourages on-the-fly considerations of trade-offs, that's a good thing.

That's what separates playing a game from impersonating a simple-minded robot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BigCheez

Having to save your movement utility to deal damage during your burst window was just awful design. While the new animations might not look as cool, removing the potency allows your movement utility to just be movement utility which is a huge W. They should do the same for PLD and WAR.

---

You didn't have to, though. If you could legitimately use it as a mobility tool, it was a damage LOSS to waste that opportunity by saving it for raidbuffs and instead walking back.

On a 200p skill, using your gap-closer under raidbuffs could net you an extra 25 potency, tops. Each GCD for which you were forced to use a ranged filler instead of continuing your optimal damage would cost most tanks over 300 effective-potency.

Removing the potency only simply offers, in effect, one extra charge of mobility (since you would otherwise face damage loss from overcapping it), negligible when already at 2 charges. The primary changes were to APM and cognitive load (no longer being rewarded for knowing whether there was a gap to close within your skill's recast time).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atreus

Phew, thank god I had you two to explain that to me and not the years of competitive LP! It still can be designed better. EW PLD dash was better. Separating stun into shield bash was better. GNB dashes are better, full stop.

---

Guess we'd better separate that self-heal/barrier from Brutal Shell, the 4s miti layer and excog each out of Heart of Corundum, the parry chance from the base mitigation of Camouflage, etc.

If we keep having any two effects not perfectly alike (not necessarily sharing exactly the same optimal timings even if separated) together under a single skill to make gameplay more than "monkey see gap, monkey close gap", we'd certainly cause ourselves cognitive fatigue before we can hit our daily PvP fix.

Thinking that could possibly weigh multiple factors together -- what an abomination! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

/s to be clear.

I don't mind having discrete gap-closers, but they're no more needed than for a %DR and barrier to be separate, or damage and healing, etc.. There's extra control in having those as separate tools, certainly, but having the most streamlined, straight-foward path to every capacity (as to reduce any value for/in componential strategy, etc.) isn't always for the best. And as PvP aims to be button-efficient, it makes all the more sense that flavor sometimes bundles in some extra cognitive load rather than all that is not discrete and plain being pruned.

I have zero problem with the GNB gap closer not having damage. It sucked having to have Rough Divide in the rotation and not having it for movement ability. And we have a really good flowing rotation now that allows some flexibility. I would like the name and the animation back, though. I don't care if it looks silly that I zoom at something and don't hit it. I twinkle over to something now by sounding like I'm stepping on pixies and apparently still don't hit it so I just want Rough Divide's animation and ability name with no damage back. We finally had all of Squall's Limit Breaks and now we lost one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atreus

Everything, unless that was sarcasm. Your movement tools being tied to a major function of the job is extremely limiting.

---

Most of cool abilities are tied to just pvp sadly. Plunge is very important in pvp because of Sole Survivor debuff that decreases healing on an enemy. Pretty cool name and mechanic. I'm not saying plunge is bad or anything for pve, but why then Warrior can have dps on charge? Why Warrior still deals damage on a dash?

If you ever wondered, Warrior has a 3 dash that deal damage which you might think is nothing but in areas such as deep dungeons, this can easily kill mobs or get you that extra dps. Even in dungeons this alone can deal nice damage x3. So removing dps from plunge effects deep dungeons as well. It also looks kinda whack that you jump on someone with a sword but deal nothing, yet Warrior is just charging but deals damage. I don't get how that works.

I just wish pvp combat was more involved in pve because some of abilities are much better and cool.

All the posts asking for every gap closer to become exactly like Thnderclap coming back to haunt everyone, eh-?

Frankly, I miss HW steel peak sometimes. Wonder why they got rid of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Astronis

It's probably for the best that a tank can't accidentally (or "accidentally") drop a tankbuster into a crowd of players by fat-fingering a dash. As funny as that would be. Have to do it the old-fashioned way and use sprint.

---

Look! This guy likes to have LESS options and LESS decision making!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BigCheez

Having to save your movement utility to deal damage during your burst window was just awful design. While the new animations might not look as cool, removing the potency allows your movement utility to just be movement utility which is a huge W. They should do the same for PLD and WAR.

---

How would it work for PLD? I like shield charging an enemyfrom afar even funnier when i use it to negate knock back and deal some extra damage

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Astronis

It's probably for the best that a tank can't accidentally (or "accidentally") drop a tankbuster into a crowd of players by fat-fingering a dash. As funny as that would be. Have to do it the old-fashioned way and use sprint.

---

I mean gotta make sure the party pays attention and not tunnel vision