Rewards vs pvp integrity

All this talk about cutting rewards for losers in FL or not, about freeloaders for roulettes, people throwing on purpose, etc, made me think that you'll probably never solve this conundrum fully: adding rewards will essentially draw in people from other parts of the MMO that just want said rewards but hate the mode or just don't want to engage enough with it, and will also encourage people that actually enjoy the mode to "optimize" their investment to get to said rewards better or faster.

This is not a hazard that in current FL a lot of the population is just there to level up their jobs. It's not completely binary and black and white, some may hate the mode, some may like it, some may be okay with it and the xp is the motivator that makes them queue for it either way. Cut this out and FL becomes a dead mode, much like if you cut the crystal series and casual will peter out as well.

This is not a hazard either that the more rewards we have had in the competitive ranked pvp modes in XIV, the more win trading and obnoxious toxic behavior has happened, because rewards were limited in nature. Currently there is a lack of rewards to keep people engaged into ranked which is something that has been universally panned by the ranked pvp crowd, but I truly wonder what would happen were we to get seasonal top 100 mounts and unique gear and whatnot?

I'm not sure there is a true and serious answer there. This is a MMO community and it's inherently driven by rewards. Put this in stark contrast with a lot of multiplayer games where even if the multiplayer population still remains a minority (solo, campaign/story and co-op modes are always more populated than ranked no matter the game), the rewards are generally pathetic if there is even some, yet they do play ranked consistently. It's not the case with XIV, where people don't play the sport for the sport itself fully.

hmm, taking exp earnings (or "earnings") away would kill especially frontline.
some people afking and acting like tools because they're there only for exp are tradeoff for not dead pvp.

i prefer it this way. rather than having pvp being ghosttown, where very small group of veterans are killing each other day in and day -- without even some exp to show for it.

...we aren't talking CC muppets calling for Feast FOMO to make comeback, right?

Seem to recall there are some specific rewards/achievements that tend to encourage people to play badly. Like isn't there one for capping nodes on Seal? I assumed this was the reason some players head directly to a point as far from the battle as possible and just sit there.

You can't change attitude with a fingersnap solution, as that's what this is, an attitude problem. When the reaction is almost an abhorred shock that you're actually, and I mean actually, are playing a mode just for the mode upon being asked why. Attitude problem. Justification for that contempt typically includes something or rather "game has nasty netcode y u do", "pvp is bad in general". Acknowledgeable? Sure. But still all subjective. I think why does netball even exist when there's basketball? Which to me is just a better version of the same game, but if someone is getting enjoyment out of it who am I to judge? Some people might play both because they just happen to enjoy ball games (and netball is even on the rise where I live...) That's my stance with pvp, and why I partake of it even in this game. I like to fight people when it's an option, even if the venue is merely passable. At least it isn't p2w automated, that's a line drawn. I can still move freely and have real-time control over my actions even when there's a hardcoded delay.

Either way, personally, my motivation levels are very weakly influenced by rewards. I'll stop when I'm no longer having fun regardless of whether or not I've hit a milestone, much like how I've quit raiding and pve for the most part in this game (until it might pick up again in 8.0). That being a seeming minority take... to put it plainly, is flabbergasting (the playing for enjoyment angle). But you just can't change something inherent at the flick of a switch. It's frustrating that others can seem so fickle in their NEED for a tangible reward in order to do anything, but it is what it is. It makes everything more bland. But I guess that's a reflection of the mindset of someone that would... yeah, focus on clicking tomeliths and not actually fighting in a battleground just to make number go up on the "achievement" panel. Bland.

Game could always use more pvp variety too, that would help a bunch probably. Finally, as a sidenote... I'm also not sure why "playing for fun" and one's output being of a higher standard can't go hand in hand neither. That I can't be playing for fun simply for injecting some finesse (p.s. not in a premade). It's such a strange logic, but one I've seen invoked.

I think the main solution for these problems is giving multiple ways to get most rewards, surely it might depopulate some activities but it would be great for player enjoyment.

If I could grind MGP by playing PvP or level up Jobs by playing Mahjong for example, I would do it in a heartbeat.

As for the PvP part of the issue that tends to lead to cheating, there's not many solutions beyond SQEX actually doing their job and properly moderating it. I think making most rewards eventually achievable would help a lot, letting practically any rank farm scaleable currency (based on rank) could help and if there's like Top 300 locked stuff, then allowing them to buy all the previous stuff if they have enough currency by reaching the Rank in current Season would probably help.

Most games do something like Mount A+ for ranked top300, and for all other they have Mount A. Like a more detailed or more capable version, e.g. dyeable for glamour sets. So there is still difference, that sets you apart for playing ranked. A mount could have more details to it, more places to ride, be faster, a special song or an animation skill, which the base version wont have.
So there is room to separate while making everyone happy, to get at least 1 version of the item.
This would disincentive cheaters, as they often would already be satisfied with a normal version, which isnt that much different... Still without gamemasters being able to monitor properly the reports..it is difficult to tell how it would end

The reward in ranked sucks... I like 5v5 But ranked is just not worth it. They can try what gw2 did. Put unique reward in ranked. Some of them just requires you to play, But if you win, you can progress like 3 times faster than a loss. Then, there are legendary reward you can earn. You don't have to reach a certain rank like ff14, But You have to win a certain number of games. Recent one l did was to win 4 conquests in a day... That was a challenge.

So, l guess add more reward But require winning Or severely curb the speed When losing might do it?

The fastest way to get series exp is to afk in CC casual - 700 exp in 1min vs. 900 exp for winning after 6min+...
They would need to change their systems to value winning more.
I still don't see why I should bother with ranked, if I can just play casual and get the same over time, even if slower. There is not really time pressure anyway then.
Same way I could not bother with Series Crystals right now - as it shows the mount and glamor pieces seem to be coming back for Crystals, which is good, because it was announced initially that way, but.. it also tells me I don't have to play each series now. When 1 series give me enough Crystals to buy several sets and mounts...It is just time exclusivity then.

If you play PvP anyway for fun sometimes, you won't have to play ranked, to get the items. If you don't play PvP for fun, you should play ranked to get it. Which is counter productive?! You want people that enjoy PvP to keep playing Ranked, not the opposite.

Some of that Aether matches on Onsal yesterday were the worst I can remember. Including the following:

My team was yellow in S spawn, blue was NE. As soon as the match started, I noticed two (possibly 3) green dots edging up the eastern border of the map. A couple of minutes later, the behavior was repeated, presumably after their first death.

I don't know if anyone on the relevant alliance attempted a vote kick since the offending players continued the behavior for the entire game (which we somehow narrowly won). Given both recorded 0/X/0 (along with a third player) K/D/A, and one did literally no damage and restored 0 HP, it's clear this was not some cunning scheme to disrupt the enemy. The players were running to an enemy base to die.

One can argue I guess that this is no big deal (we won after all), and that this kind of behavior is restricted to a small minority. The issue is that such people are queueing in as parties with a premeditated feeding plan. It may be I'm just attuned to it now, but my sense is this behavior is becoming more common.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

(And the skilled premades on their own team never cared what "NPCs" they were playing with anyway.)

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I wouldn't be so disheartened by being called an NPC, among some of those "skilled premades" it's more of a mark of prestige than you think~ especially when it's that whole group rallying to call ONE person that. Fear and/or misguided loathing does funny things to the mind!

Anyway... this phenomenon of "feeder premades", can't say I've observed it much if at all. It's usually one person tucking themselves into an obscure part of the terrain. If I notice that and they're not in my party I'll be rather direct, "/a Anyone with one <somebody> in their party? Suggest a votekick if I were you, they're afk/botting". Perhaps you mean the thuglife premades that selectively play based on who they see in their alliance (or know which fellow gangstas are on the other factions to further guide their actions)? /fakesmile Find that to be a bit more common, insular tribalism is a common thing... so it's much harder to weed out if it is proving to be a problem at times.

I digress somewhat though, however this is covering "integrity" so... eh.

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Originally Posted by ThreeBeastSmile

I wouldn't be so disheartened by being called an NPC, among some of those "skilled premades" it's more of a mark of prestige than you think~ especially when it's that whole group rallying to call ONE person that. Fear and/or misguided loathing does funny things to the mind!

Anyway... this phenomenon of "feeder premades", can't say I've observed it much if at all. It's usually one person tucking themselves into an obscure part of the terrain. If I notice that and they're not in my party I'll be rather direct, "/a Anyone with one <somebody> in their party? Suggest a votekick if I were you, they're afk/botting". Perhaps you mean the thuglife premades that selectively play based on who they see in their alliance (or know which fellow gangstas are on the other factions to further guide their actions)? /fakesmile Find that to be a bit more common, insular tribalism is a common thing... so it's much harder to weed out if it is proving to be a problem at times.

I digress somewhat though, however this is covering "integrity" so... eh.

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Some matches only make sense if you recognize one padding/assassin premade is going after another. I'd say that's a pretty clear game integrity issue.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Some matches only make sense if you recognize one padding/assassin premade is going after another. I'd say that's a pretty clear game integrity issue.

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We're reading from the same page. If the inverted commas on integrity made that unclear I apologize, I wasn't speaking with disdain there. Was just detailing on that type of premade and that it's a more common fixture than it's been made out to be. Given that it can be driven by far more unsavoury elements (let's just say pettiness) than mere sloth, it's a more eminent thing too. Just my opinion of course.

Bit of personal trivia, but I believe I was removed from one bunker discord on the basis of questioning that behaviour. Was told, "fuck honour" and not that long after that I was no longer a member. So yeah, it's kinda a thing yannoooooow.

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Originally Posted by ThreeBeastSmile

We're reading from the same page. If the inverted commas on integrity made that unclear I apologize, I wasn't speaking with disdain there. Was just detailing on that type of premade and that it's a more common fixture than it's been made out to be. Given that it can be driven by far more unsavoury elements (let's just say pettiness) than mere sloth, it's a more eminent thing too. Just my opinion of course.

Bit of personal trivia, but I believe I was removed from one bunker discord on the basis of questioning that behaviour. Was told, "fuck honour" and not that long after that I was no longer a member. So yeah, it's kinda a thing yannoooooow.

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Understood, and I completely agree with you.

PvP Discords definitely do some good, like keeping Rival Wings sort of alive. But some servers have a culture that that is highly counter-productive to PvP integrity, and frankly attracts people I'd rather avoid.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

As long as the rewards aren't FOMO, having a high win requirement seems perfectly acceptable because while players don't have to rush to try and win, they're still obligated to TRY and WIN when they do finally dive in to claim those rewards, no amount of AFKing will get them there.

It's why the Feast is such a subject of contention. Not because of the skill barrier per say (because there are plenty of skilled PVPers), but rather the fact that it came and went like the breeze and there's a lot of newer folks who could likely win if given the chance ...but a lot of old wolves from back then are fat and toothless these days it seems, and the exclusivity matters more to them than having competition again.

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Yeah, that's what gw2 did. The legendary amulet l got Few months ago will never go away. It is just that the requirement of winning 120 ranked games to obtain a certain crafting Material can take you a long time if you suck. But that doesn't need to be done in one season.

This reads like bait. Nobody but trolls who actually barely do pvp want to cut rewards for losers, especially not pvp players.

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Originally Posted by Teno

This reads like bait. Nobody but trolls who actually barely do pvp want to cut rewards for losers, especially not pvp players.

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Idk, I think frontline was better when there was no exp yet. Because people only joined to win and PvP, not to do their roulettes or freaking moogle event fast losing grinding sessions. You maybe don't have to go down to 0 exp or moogle tomestones, but you could reduce it, so losing isn't so attractive.
It still popped regularly, just not the other less played modes where you had to wait hours or days to get a pop, but this is solved now anyway with the daily rotation. But maybe there should be a 48 mode too?

I don't like how the discussion about rewards always shifts to old feast rewards being made available again, as if SE has no other power than to reuse assets that already existed before. It is like acknowledging that someone sees PvP as nothing more than it could be, that they only care about past rewards but not about the future game mode.

There are so many rare items in the game from 1.0 and obscure methods like quick venture and item codes from stuff that you can no longer buy. Items that were released on some datacenters in some regions but not elsewhere. Items that already exist but are not dyeable yet after more than a decade of requests, like the sealrock glam. Nobody ever talks about these anymore.

There should be an item that needs dozens of wolf collars, or even hundred for a single piece
e.g. Having a turnin for 50 wolf collar to change the seal rock glam into a dyed version.
e.g. A stand alone PvP themed armor set that needs a fckton of wolf collars - like really grindy like a hunt mount.

otherwise series crystals still have no value, once you played 1 series to 30, you can almost buy everything you really want. Besides all the reskin glam.
While I liked the upgrades to hellhound weapons, they introduced a new item that you need for it, so crystals are still in high supply...Maybe 10000-15000 crystals should let people buy 1 of those red upgrade items directly...
What about a hellhound armor that can be upgraded with subtle red effects too?

Players would be busy a whole year if they make it grindy. PvP Relic... Still a lot of untouched potential for PvP, for a crowd that is maybe done with PvE.

It'll end up a ghosttown cause it seems like recently theres a ton more pvp static teams joining the FL and mowing through us that yes, want the rewards, but also try but havent done all the youtube watching to learn what buttons to push when and at what cycle during certain times and stuff. If it werent for malmstone rewards, I would never do pvp as im not much into it to begin with. But what would make it more enjoyable to play is 1.This is for roulette anyways, not queuing specifically up for it, but you must queue as a random so it is mixed up entirely between teams. I think people can do one 5-10min session without friends. 2. Take away pullin and knockback skills. Gets old when there isnt any fighting at all. Its just player getting tied down and cheap killed. Or make FL roulette just like signing up for a dungeon, you enter as the class you entered with and the teams are evened out like a dungeon. No more everyone being the same class so people get yanked around till killed. I have no problems with friends playing together like a lot of people keep arguing about. Its the ones that play together like a static team. Yes, I suck, you can all sit there and tease me about it. But I'd at least like to fight in a pvp FL instead of getting pulled around and then tied down and killed with no possibility of defending myself. So to me its either must sign up as a solo rando for FL roulette or it get treated like signing up for a dungeon run. Getting to a point where if i even make it to the mount right now on the malmstones, its the last I play for pvp. FL is not fun at all with it being just running into battlefield just to get yanked around 50 times.

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Originally Posted by Goldolds1972

<snip cuz gonna ramble>

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Do you go as RPR when you play FL? Generally you will be focused unless you get good with the teleport and use it to joust better when attempting dives. RPR is treated as one of those spooky jobs (no pun intended) that gets held down asap normally. Might be worth switching to a different job like DRG until you can handle being the likely focus. RPR should be just fine when you notice the return teleport is 30y, it's actually really really good at hit and runs.

You're really not as disadvantaged as you think queuing alone, but I suppose if you don't enjoy the pvp for pvp then you're not going to improve much. Passion tends to kindle gitting gudder faster. Take this from someone who regularly runs at smaller groups alone and skirmishes without dying, job pick permitting. You can learn to play around knockbacks and draw-ins with just a bit of instinct, which you'd start picking up by not declaring the pvp as a total write-off in your mind. It's a pity so many yield to the more thuggish groups though, and decide it's not worth it outside of the rewards and never return.

Thus we return to the vibe of the topic, why do we have so many queuing up "just for the reward", while also bringing in these "I cba" defeatist (or downright dismissive) attitudes? Why are most of all the attitudes concerning pvp motives right now negative? That's the quandary. Sometimes I'll hang out at various instances of WDP, and see some sprouts seemingly having fun in the dueling area. I'll occasionally cut in to gauge interest in pvp as a whole, and things tend to go from there. It's nice when there's enthusiasm. There needs to be more of that. (Maybe WDP can start by looking a bit more presentable for one, after so many years...)

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Originally Posted by ThreeBeastSmile

Thus we return to the vibe of the topic, why do we have so many queuing up "just for the reward", while also bringing in these "I cba" defeatist (or downright dismissive) attitudes? Why are most of all the attitudes concerning pvp motives right now negative? That's the quandary. Sometimes I'll hang out at various instances of WDP, and see some sprouts seemingly having fun in the dueling area. I'll occasionally cut in to gauge interest in pvp as a whole, and things tend to go from there. It's nice when there's enthusiasm. There needs to be more of that. (Maybe WDP can start by looking a bit more presentable for one, after so many years...)

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The semi-facetious answer is "because it's an MMO."

That said, the "gimme summat or I won't play" seems to me to be particularly bad in 14.

But there's a lovely breeze coming in from my balcony, and thus I am optimistic. I report non-participants. Over the last six weeks, I've been contacted by GMs on four occasions who seem genuinely interested in discussing my concerns. They have encouraged me to continue to report those breaking ToS. I get the feeling there's a little PvP enclave at SE (NA at least), where GMs care about FL.

I hope I'm not fooling myself.

You want change? Vote kick and report.

I suspect there are many players "just there for the rewards" who avoid combat and don't know they're doing anything wrong. Or they figure FL is a joke mode.

Let's change that belief. Olivia tried to remove this element of the player base through her exceptional skill. Hasn't worked. Suspended accounts may be more effective than getting the snot kicked out of you by a French Maid.

Vive la résistance! Mort aux détracteurs!

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

Eh... I'm pretty sure she's been trying to remove more than just AFKers and leechers though, given her "my way or the highway" attitude towards casual and solo players who won't bend the knee to her playstyle.

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As you know, I didn't care for that. Equally I understand her frustration. I just offer a different solution.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

The semi-facetious answer is "because it's an MMO."

That said, the "gimme summat or I won't play" seems to me to be particularly bad in 14.

But there's a lovely breeze coming in from my balcony, and thus I am optimistic. I report non-participants. Over the last six weeks, I've been contacted by GMs on four occasions who seem genuinely interested in discussing my concerns. They have encouraged me to continue to report those breaking ToS. I get the feeling there's a little PvP enclave at SE (NA at least), where GMs care about FL.

I hope I'm not fooling myself.

You want change? Vote kick and report.

I suspect there are many players "just there for the rewards" who avoid combat and don't know they're doing anything wrong. Or they figure FL is a joke mode.

Let's change that belief. Olivia tried to remove this element of the player base through her exceptional skill. Hasn't worked. Suspended accounts may be more effective than getting the snot kicked out of you by a French Maid.

Vive la résistance! Mort aux détracteurs!

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Can you ask them to talk to their EU fellows? Our GMs here are the worst offenders when it comes to lethargic play. I've never once in my life been contacted by a GM for a report I made. And I've made a lot of them.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Can you ask them to talk to their EU fellows? Our GMs here are the worst offenders when it comes to lethargic play. I've never once in my life been contacted by a GM for a report I made. And I've made a lot of them.

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Uhm. Sure! Sorry your lot are lagging. FWIW this is a somewhat recent (past 3 months) development, but I'll happily encourage an expansion to EU.

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Originally Posted by Goldolds1972

It'll end up a ghosttown cause it seems like recently theres a ton more pvp static teams joining the FL and mowing through us that yes, want the rewards, but also try but havent done all the youtube watching to learn what buttons to push when and at what cycle during certain times and stuff. If it werent for malmstone rewards, I would never do pvp as im not much into it to begin with. But what would make it more enjoyable to play is 1.This is for roulette anyways, not queuing specifically up for it, but you must queue as a random so it is mixed up entirely between teams. I think people can do one 5-10min session without friends. 2. Take away pullin and knockback skills. Gets old when there isnt any fighting at all. Its just player getting tied down and cheap killed. Or make FL roulette just like signing up for a dungeon, you enter as the class you entered with and the teams are evened out like a dungeon. No more everyone being the same class so people get yanked around till killed. I have no problems with friends playing together like a lot of people keep arguing about. Its the ones that play together like a static team. Yes, I suck, you can all sit there and tease me about it. But I'd at least like to fight in a pvp FL instead of getting pulled around and then tied down and killed with no possibility of defending myself. So to me its either must sign up as a solo rando for FL roulette or it get treated like signing up for a dungeon run. Getting to a point where if i even make it to the mount right now on the malmstones, its the last I play for pvp. FL is not fun at all with it being just running into battlefield just to get yanked around 50 times.

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Courage, mon brave!

If you're playing at melee distance, be aware the competent enemies are using "target nearest."

Don't be nearest. It's like that business when you're getting chased by a bear. You don't need to be faster than the bear. Consult a Canadian for details.

Through the iterations I have played, FL boils down to moving fast and kicking the enemy in the teeth before they lock onto your teeth.

Playing solo is fine. Over 8,000+ matches, I have always queued solo. I have to. I'm convinced joining Discord premades gives you STDs.

You may die. Oh well. Rub some dirt in it, get back in there, and smack the yahoo who got you.

Or just play green dps or ranged and avoid all that fisticuffs and ping-ponging! AST and WHM are wonderful. You get to wear pretty frocks, twirl elegantly, cause chaos, then drop a courtesy heal as you run away essay a tactical retreat.

Exit stage left, smiling, as your cooldowns... er... cool down. Then unleash the cats of war again. Preferably behind a tank.

It's digital ballet.

Poetry in motion.

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

Idk, I think frontline was better when there was no exp yet. Because people only joined to win and PvP, not to do their roulettes or freaking moogle event fast losing grinding sessions. You maybe don't have to go down to 0 exp or moogle tomestones, but you could reduce it, so losing isn't so attractive.
It still popped regularly, just not the other less played modes where you had to wait hours or days to get a pop, but this is solved now anyway with the daily rotation. But maybe there should be a 48 mode too?

I don't like how the discussion about rewards always shifts to old feast rewards being made available again, as if SE has no other power than to reuse assets that already existed before. It is like acknowledging that someone sees PvP as nothing more than it could be, that they only care about past rewards but not about the future game mode.

There are so many rare items in the game from 1.0 and obscure methods like quick venture and item codes from stuff that you can no longer buy. Items that were released on some datacenters in some regions but not elsewhere. Items that already exist but are not dyeable yet after more than a decade of requests, like the sealrock glam. Nobody ever talks about these anymore.

There should be an item that needs dozens of wolf collars, or even hundred for a single piece
e.g. Having a turnin for 50 wolf collar to change the seal rock glam into a dyed version.
e.g. A stand alone PvP themed armor set that needs a fckton of wolf collars - like really grindy like a hunt mount.

otherwise series crystals still have no value, once you played 1 series to 30, you can almost buy everything you really want. Besides all the reskin glam.
While I liked the upgrades to hellhound weapons, they introduced a new item that you need for it, so crystals are still in high supply...Maybe 10000-15000 crystals should let people buy 1 of those red upgrade items directly...
What about a hellhound armor that can be upgraded with subtle red effects too?

Players would be busy a whole year if they make it grindy. PvP Relic... Still a lot of untouched potential for PvP, for a crowd that is maybe done with PvE.

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It's asinine to me that almost every old pvp reward can't be obtained anymore, not even a redyed version. And the only thing they added this patch is one not so old set. Crystals and collars are piling up in my inventory too. I certainly wouldn't mind very grindy rewards in exchange for those.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Can you ask them to talk to their EU fellows? Our GMs here are the worst offenders when it comes to lethargic play. I've never once in my life been contacted by a GM for a report I made. And I've made a lot of them.

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I had an opportunity to fulfil your request this evening and did so.

FWIW I've noticed that when lethargic players also type something in chat that is negative or defeatist, I'm far more likely to get a follow-up from a GM. I guess part of this may be that chat logs are easy to check, plus the overall focus on protecting players against chat harassment.

Yeah ok but I mostly report from CC games. It's all about quickchat BM, ignore marks or silence.
But this should be equally as easy to check anyway.
So I don't know if it's GMs actually not giving two fucks about CC (especially ranked?!), or it's just an EU problem.

I think they would like to care, but they are not allowed and limited in their power to check out stuff and it costs manpower - in an age where WoW already fallsback to AI GM support. Where you get banned for weeks, because some people mass reported you etc.
If PvP ranked has duty record active by default, saved on their cloud server, kept for like 48hrs online before deleted. GM's could at least check the file and determine what to do then...