The 7.2 Frontline changes are EXCELLENT

From what little we've seen in preliminary patch notes and role actions, Frontlines is getting a ton of new options for aggressive play.

When Dragoon, Dark Knight, and all of the other "good" classes got their damage nerfed, we received no alternative options for offense. People have still found a way to make impactful plays, but it's just the same thing with a bit less oomph.

These new role actions, especially Rampage and Dervish, seem to promote new ways of attacking with and supporting your team. Combine that with the Battle High changes that allow the buff to spread more evenly across your team, and I think the devs are finally understanding that offense and aggression keep the game engaging.

I hope that the unseen role actions also encourage people to coordinate attacks with a group, and that Secure turns out to be a great place to play with my friends.

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Originally Posted by gidsonBrand

From what little we've seen in preliminary patch notes and role actions, Frontlines is getting a ton of new options for aggressive play.

When Dragoon, Dark Knight, and all of the other "good" classes got their damage nerfed, we received no alternative options for offense. People have still found a way to make impactful plays, but it's just the same thing with a bit less oomph.

These new role actions, especially Rampage and Dervish, seem to promote new ways of attacking with and supporting your team. Combine that with the Battle High changes that allow the buff to spread more evenly across your team, and I think the devs are finally understanding that offense and aggression keep the game engaging.

I hope that the unseen role actions also encourage people to coordinate attacks with a group, and that Secure turns out to be a great place to play with my friends.

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Are you not basically saying the changes will be great for premades? If so, I think you're probably right, which is a potential disaster given the vast majority of players queue solo.

However I'll withhold judgement until I've played a bit.

It's great for any team able to read the field and coordinate their attacks. Which is good for both solo queue players who want to fit in with the team, as well as premade parties that are going in with a plan.

If people being good at the game is bad for the vast majority of players, then I don't know what to say besides git gud.

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Originally Posted by gidsonBrand

It's great for any team able to read the field and coordinate their attacks. Which is good for both solo queue players who want to fit in with the team, as well as premade parties that are going in with a plan.

If people being good at the game is bad for the vast majority of players, then I don't know what to say besides git gud.

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Oh please don't say "git gud," I credit you with more intelligence than that.

If these changes raise the skill ceiling, I'm all for them.

My issue is that anything that increases the power of zerg+burst does the complete opposite. It means there's really only a single, monotonous strategy. Hence I was thrilled by the partial neutering of DRK+ light parties in 7.1.

We view what is good about FL differently. I recall you lauding the fact that FL is a rare game mode where you can kill 48 enemies at once. To me this is its central flaw.

I'd also note that coordination is abused in practice by some premades, simply because they are padders who are not prioritizing the victory of the team at all. Naturally by killing enemies the goals of the padders and the team can align, but often they don't. There's been an increase in this issue recently on Aether.

I look forward to discussing this with you further when we have some data.

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Originally Posted by gidsonBrand

From what little we've seen in preliminary patch notes and role actions, Frontlines is getting a ton of new options for aggressive play.

When Dragoon, Dark Knight, and all of the other "good" classes got their damage nerfed, we received no alternative options for offense. People have still found a way to make impactful plays, but it's just the same thing with a bit less oomph.

These new role actions, especially Rampage and Dervish, seem to promote new ways of attacking with and supporting your team. Combine that with the Battle High changes that allow the buff to spread more evenly across your team, and I think the devs are finally understanding that offense and aggression keep the game engaging.

I hope that the unseen role actions also encourage people to coordinate attacks with a group, and that Secure turns out to be a great place to play with my friends.

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Seems like a decent step in the right direction overall. Bringing back a faster or more explosive pace is needed in frontline. Will have to see how it pans out in game.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Are you not basically saying the changes will be great for premades? If so, I think you're probably right, which is a potential disaster given the vast majority of players queue solo.

However I'll withhold judgement until I've played a bit.

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You're underestimating the potential for solo players. I recognize by name most of the regulars and I tend to play around or with them, so I see a lot of value in these more "group-oriented" skills. And many solo players also tend to play that way so I'm rather optimistic for once. But we'll only see it when we see it. I'm withholding judgment too.

So then, what? We're just not supposed to encourage offense whatsoever?

Right now, the only way to consistently defeat another team is to go full 24v24, because you just NEED that much damage and sustain. No other strat is viable. If you want the zerging to stop and change into more 8v8 skirmishes followed by the occasional bloodbath, then 4-8 people need to have enough firepower to defeat an entire alliance.

These changes to battle high & good offensive role actions are a step towards that. Coordinate with your team, find your role in the stack. And if an army comes at you in a stupid zerg way, bait it out and fire the artillery on them. Pull a 300 and hold your choke.

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Originally Posted by gidsonBrand

So then, what? We're just not supposed to encourage offense whatsoever?

Right now, the only way to consistently defeat another team is to go full 24v24, because you just NEED that much damage and sustain. No other strat is viable. If you want the zerging to stop and change into more 8v8 skirmishes followed by the occasional bloodbath, then 4-8 people need to have enough firepower to defeat an entire alliance.

These changes to battle high & good offensive role actions are a step towards that. Coordinate with your team, find your role in the stack. And if an army comes at you in a stupid zerg way, bait it out and fire the artillery on them. Pull a 300 and hold your choke.

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Make the mode 8v8v8 and shrink the map, then we wouldn't need massive DR values that allow a player to survive a multi-player attack, thereby requiring a larger multi-player attack, that leads to a greater DR modifier...

BH has a similar problem. If it just modified attack damage, it might do what you want it to, but it doesn't. So my fear is this will make the first 2 minutes the deciding factor in who wins the match.

(Edit: is that a reference to a tractor?)

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Originally Posted by Teno

You're underestimating the potential for solo players. I recognize by name most of the regulars and I tend to play around or with them, so I see a lot of value in these more "group-oriented" skills. And many solo players also tend to play that way so I'm rather optimistic for once. But we'll only see it when we see it. I'm withholding judgment too.

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Oh I agree with what you're saying. Good solo players tend to be in the right place because they're paying attention, and typically enough of them show up together that these changes will make them more effective.

Ironically it's the padding premades that tend to derail this, most noticeably on Onsal mid.

What I'm really dreading is the the BH and role action changes will return us fully to the banality of the pre-7.1 meta, but time will tell.

Do you really think that people would stop complaining about premades or "overpowered" tactics if the mode changed to 8v8v8? And the maps shrank? No, they'd die even faster since 8 people bursting 1 target is practically a guaranteed kill.

And then there would be more complaints and nerfs -- which is why the devs need to hear praise for their current direction of encouraging offense & rewarding a successful engagement. No premade boogieman is ruining the mode for you, it's the community's general lack of care for learning the game and finger pointing at those who do learn.

Give people tools to make the play. Let them figure out how to do it, since beating the crap out of someone who's had your number all game (and learning over time how to play) is so much more fun.

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Originally Posted by gidsonBrand

Do you really think that people would stop complaining about premades or "overpowered" tactics if the mode changed to 8v8v8? And the maps shrank? No, they'd die even faster since 8 people bursting 1 target is practically a guaranteed kill.

And then there would be more complaints and nerfs -- which is why the devs need to hear praise for their current direction of encouraging offense & rewarding a successful engagement. No premade boogieman is ruining the mode for you, it's the community's general lack of care for learning the game and finger pointing at those who do learn.

Give people tools to make the play. Let them figure out how to do it, since beating the crap out of someone who's had your number all game (and learning over time how to play) is so much more fun.

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I think 8v8v8 would be a much better mode, partly because FL jobs are "balanced" based on a 5v5 mode. The new actions are a good step precisely because they allow decoupling from CC and FL. 8v8v8 also allows matchmaking which is desperately needed, if only to put the significant people who are not making any effort into their own kiddie pool.

Outside of that, don't you think it's rather premature to praise the devs for the changes? Particularly since once again they were foisted upon us without anyone here asking for such changes, while suggestions we've made for years continue to be ignored?

If 7.2 produces a more enjoyable experience, I'll be saying so loudly and clearly in the desperate hope they won't get reverted.

No, there are three posts on the forums decrying these changes or a lack of nerfs. That you yourself have posted on.

Seriously, yall need some more positivity when it comes to PvP. It's literally the best part of the game right now, outside of Savage, but you wouldn't know that if you read the forums.
Like, I'm in the camp that FFXIV generally has an overly positive community and we could use more pain points. But come on, are you really trying to roast me for saying I'm excited to play the game?

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Originally Posted by gidsonBrand

No, there are three posts on the forums decrying these changes or a lack of nerfs. That you yourself have posted on.

Seriously, yall need some more positivity when it comes to PvP. It's literally the best part of the game right now, outside of Savage, but you wouldn't know that if you read the forums.
Like, I'm in the camp that FFXIV generally has an overly positive community and we could use more pain points. But come on, are you really trying to roast me for saying I'm excited to play the game?

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I suspect our views of what constitute FL improvements are bordering on mutually exclusive, hence it's inevitable that when you're excited I'm likely to be worried.

Based on your posts, my impression is you're more interested in a conventional MOBA than the multi-objectives of FL, hence when FL changes seem likely to emphasize snowballing aggression, you'll enjoy them more than me.

But I'm happy for you that you're excited to play the game.

One technical point. Once again, the devs have committed the cardinal sin of making two potentially significant changes at once. This is really frustrating when multiple posters here pointed this out after the last fiasco.

Specifically, making a massive change to BH while simultaneously adding a potentially major change with duty actions is... Mind-numbing. Irrespective of whether matches become better or worse, it will be difficult to untangle the reason why.

8v8v8 is a mode I really long for. This "sweet spot" is really missing between CC and super large-scale matches and I do agree with the point that PvP classes are heavily designed around CC, a mode with small teams with lots of individual responsibility, so I think many current jobs would be very suited for 8v8v8 team fights. You'd have the thrill of larger battles against two teams but more of an individual "burden" (in a good way). Because of the latter you could probably get more complex gameplay out of your class than "group enemies, delete enemies with big bursts" (I'm oversimplifying of course, I know FL, esp. with premades and coordinated teams, require lots of strategy but on the flip side when there are a lot of randos who don't take the game seriously it's also very, very easy to play like garbage without anybody being able to pin it on you because you get lost in the crowd - so matches can very quickly turn into simple "go in, go boom").

Some role actions like fetterward sound like a godsent especially for melees, and reward skill play. Casuals are probably not going to take advantage of it because they couldn't back in ShB when fetterward was a thing already, so this will probably cement good melee play into the hands of good pvp players more than anything.
I forgot what rampage or dervish do (but I do remember feeling underwhelmed by dervish comparatively), I have seen phantom dart peeking in which I think is going to destroy melees when used well by casters, depending of course of its vulnerability potency (it was 20% back in Feast).
I do not understand the design idea behind role actions like comet. Are we trying to blanket the field with nukes? People are just going to spamm that crap and I don't even want to imagine what it's gonna result in with pull-ins, but we'll have to see I guess. I just don't think the role actions is the place to go for offensive damage AoE actions...

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Originally Posted by gidsonBrand

So then, what? We're just not supposed to encourage offense whatsoever?

Right now, the only way to consistently defeat another team is to go full 24v24, because you just NEED that much damage and sustain. No other strat is viable. If you want the zerging to stop and change into more 8v8 skirmishes followed by the occasional bloodbath, then 4-8 people need to have enough firepower to defeat an entire alliance.

These changes to battle high & good offensive role actions are a step towards that. Coordinate with your team, find your role in the stack. And if an army comes at you in a stupid zerg way, bait it out and fire the artillery on them. Pull a 300 and hold your choke.

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There will never been any skirmishes like back in HW/SB as long as mount speed remains increased and map design and objectives don't push more seriously for team splitting. And if this ever happens, then the innate DRs will not be needed anymore or will be able to be dialed down. We never had them until half ShB precisely because of this meta shift (+ the lower damage output overall) and SE had to find a solution in a hurry (and also got rid of the 8v8v8 in the process, because of course 50% DR would make it impossible to kill anyone in that format).

Ad for the zerg tactics or not, if we go back to the premade meta where one premade can just play the game for the whole team? As a solo veteran player, I'm out. This was so depressing back then. Being on the receiving end, at least you could take some anti meta jobs and delete their BH5 players just to piss them off (even if it wouldnt change the outcome of a game ending within 5min), but being on the same side? Felt like playing a healer in pve...

Premade players are just unhappy because they lost their godmode meta that was not only easy to pull off, but required enemy teams to pull the same to fight fire with fire. No thanks I'm good with what we have now, and frankly I still see regularly some premades moving around and seriously denting enemy teams, just not wiping the floor, and that seems a lot healthier in terms of balance to me.

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Originally Posted by Valence

There will never been any skirmishes like back in HW/SB as long as mount speed remains increased and map design and objectives don't push more seriously for team splitting.

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One of the few good parts of Secure was the ability to shadow capture the enemy's nodes when the teams go to the middle, or if you're just feeling cheeky. That came with the risk of getting 24 players coming after you, but it could possibly result in a 4v8 or 8v8 situation if maps are designed like this in the future.

My main point is, more firepower from role actions, battle high, even the Secure point's damage buff means that kills and progress can be made without the entire alliance present. And I LOVE that!

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Originally Posted by Valence

Ad for the zerg tactics or not, if we go back to the premade meta where one premade can just play the game for the whole team?

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Honestly, if we had to split into more skirmishes (and have the ability to win by doing so) then the meta might turn into 6 premades on a team, just for the added coordination. Which would be awesome -- right now, either the entire alliance succeeds or nobody does. If I'm going in with 3 of my friends, I at least want us to say we did something cool rather than getting anchored.

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Originally Posted by gidsonBrand

Honestly, if we had to split into more skirmishes (and have the ability to win by doing so) then the meta might turn into 6 premades on a team, just for the added coordination. Which would be awesome -- right now, either the entire alliance succeeds or nobody does. If I'm going in with 3 of my friends, I at least want us to say we did something cool rather than getting anchored.

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Which would be quite interesting.

But arguably the meta should have already evolved into six premades per team. And it hasn't for obvious reasons.

I like the direction Frontlines is going in but the server tick needs to be addressed as well. We can enhance actions all we want but until we can read the abilities/damage we are giving and receiving we will continue to see the same complaints. Skill is not always the answer or excuse we can throw as the problem. I see many threads say "You can't go by the animations" However there is never an answer to what to go to instead. Changes that I think need to be addressed are.

-Make Recuperate more expensive for non-support roles. Instead of 2500MP, make it 4000MP peruse. Non-support class sustainability is a little too good.

-Give us stun/silence vulnerability cd's. We should get a 30-second or longer immunity after being stunned or silenced consecutively. Frontlines has become someone who can hit you with stun/silence consecutively long enough so you can't act until your health bar is depleted.

While we'll have to see how it functions in action before jumping to conclusions, battle high changes will probably result in more battle high across the board, especially among jobs that didn't have strong kill potential. This change is going to effect solo queuers and teams playing catch-up more than premades, I suspect. I personally look forward to not having to prioritize killing blows as much.

I'm really looking forward to role actions: more diversity of options in PvP is always a good thing.

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Originally Posted by FALCSMASH

I like the direction Frontlines is going in but the server tick needs to be addressed as well. We can enhance actions all we want but until we can read the abilities/damage we are giving and receiving we will continue to see the same complaints. Skill is not always the answer or excuse we can throw as the problem. I see many threads say "You can't go by the animations" However there is never an answer to what to go to instead. Changes that I think need to be addressed are.

-Make Recuperate more expensive for non-support roles. Instead of 2500MP, make it 4000MP peruse. Non-support class sustainability is a little too good.

-Give us stun/silence vulnerability cd's. We should get a 30-second or longer immunity after being stunned or silenced consecutively. Frontlines has become someone who can hit you with stun/silence consecutively long enough so you can't act until your health bar is depleted.

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1) Nerfing recuperate like this will only make Frontline even more rDPS and more premade reliant in practice: suddenly it's going to matter more if you're queuing up with a dedicated healer, and we're going to return to the pocket healer era. mDPS and tanks are perfectly killable as is with smart use of CC and burst damage.

2) 30 seconds sounds very long, but I could agree with some form of CC resistance outside of purify and similar support abilities: we actually had this for a while in ShB! 10s immunities for each type of CC and it being applied again. This was sorely missed when 6.1 came around.

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Originally Posted by WutWut

1) Nerfing recuperate like this will only make Frontline even more rDPS and more premade reliant in practice: suddenly it's going to matter more if you're queuing up with a dedicated healer, and we're going to return to the pocket healer era. mDPS and tanks are perfectly killable as is with smart use of CC and burst damage.

2) 30 seconds sounds very long, but I could agree with some form of CC resistance outside of purify and similar support abilities: we actually had this for a while in ShB! 10s immunities for each type of CC and it being applied again. This was sorely missed when 6.1 came around.

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I think CC resistance is precisely the sort of thing that role actions could address effectively. I really like the idea of individual players having the choice to add such a defensive tool, or skip it in favor of an offensive one.

I do hope the devs keep their eye on the ball as the players experiment with these role actions, though. One of the main problems in 6.X was that they basically left it alone for way too long, despite the obvious shortcomings once the meta had stabilized.

I also hope everyone involved in matches actually has the role actions on their UI, but I'm not optimistic.

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Originally Posted by gidsonBrand

One of the few good parts of Secure was the ability to shadow capture the enemy's nodes when the teams go to the middle, or if you're just feeling cheeky. That came with the risk of getting 24 players coming after you, but it could possibly result in a 4v8 or 8v8 situation if maps are designed like this in the future.

My main point is, more firepower from role actions, battle high, even the Secure point's damage buff means that kills and progress can be made without the entire alliance present. And I LOVE that!

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I do remember it being a thing before the mount speed buffs, but as it stands, I think we're just gonna go back to ShB+ secure which was blobs moving between points because people were fast enough. Base > Mid for nodes > side 1 > side 2 > side 1 > side 2 > etc. Skirmishes sometimes do emerged, but I never really bothered because it was clear that a blob was on its way as soon as you were noticed, and odds were you were going to die. I do understand that the capture point buff will help alleviate this, but with the added teleporters? Nah, people are gonna blob the crap out of this map.

I do hope I'm proven wrong though, but why would people play it differently than what it was after the mount changes? Now you can even mount on the run to shave off some more seconds between travels.

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Originally Posted by gidsonBrand

Honestly, if we had to split into more skirmishes (and have the ability to win by doing so) then the meta might turn into 6 premades on a team, just for the added coordination. Which would be awesome -- right now, either the entire alliance succeeds or nobody does. If I'm going in with 3 of my friends, I at least want us to say we did something cool rather than getting anchored.

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I think if we had maps with clear alliance split directions, ending up basically with full parties or even light parties everywhere, premades would just butcher everything as well. Maybe less of a total impact on the game's outcome, yeah I could see that. But on the other hand, if you're solo with your little group of randos, are you seriously going to engage a group of 4 BH5 players on the other side?

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Originally Posted by FALCSMASH

-Make Recuperate more expensive for non-support roles. Instead of 2500MP, make it 4000MP peruse. Non-support class sustainability is a little too good.

-Give us stun/silence vulnerability cd's. We should get a 30-second or longer immunity after being stunned or silenced consecutively. Frontlines has become someone who can hit you with stun/silence consecutively long enough so you can't act until your health bar is depleted.

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1) Support jobs are already S tier... And even if that's only within the realm of FL, what is the goal exactly? So that green and blue jobs have an easier time surviving compared to red jobs? Do they truly need this, with all the tools already at their disposal for this?
2) So basically, I bait any CC coming my way first, and once I get stunned by some random crap, I can run in unimpeded and cause havoc without being punished? I'm like everyone, I hate the CC chain stuns in FL. It can already be borderline obnoxious in crystalline conflict, so in FL? It's awful. But let's see what fetterward does first to alleviate the problem? Alternatively a 5s immunity after one crowd control I could also agree with as long as it remains simple and down to one universal immunity and not the obnoxious cc dependent immunities of ShB that were an absolute nightmare to track (does the target has stun immunity? heavy maybe? bound? knockback?... urg).

Alright so, a few thoughts now that the patch is out.

- Swift + Sky Shatter is absolutely terrifying
- Chiten and Bloodbath gives you a functional 4 second invuln
- Full Swing is WAY too goofy

All in all, lot of very weird options were added in this patch, and oh my god they feel so unbalanced in the best way possible.

7.25 is going to adjust it for sure, but I've never had this much fun in Front lines. GG devs.

Couple of observations:

- Tanks : Rampart makes you near invincible, much more valuable than I anciticipated. With GNB and the circle it's so many free counter attacks. On warrior you can rotate bloodwhetting+aoe, rampart and guard for dozens of seconds of near invincibility. Full Swing is also a blast as expected, after monk's stun removal I am satisfied.

- Melees : swift is very very strong. You can already see plenty of vipers just diving in and juggling anti-cc, scales, guard and whatnot. on top of the hp regen. And then get out with swift after the last scales because of the slightly delayed regen so you have time to retreat. The dash to any friendly also helps now. Bloodbath and ninja/samurai works very well.

- Ranged : the guard pierce attack is good.

- Casters : the meteor is good, but with the modifiers it sometimes feel a bit underwhelming.

- Healers : diabrosis is good, you can definitely feel the impact but it's not overbearing either, people just back off earlier.

Very fun skills all around, some very strong, near op stuff on paper, yet in practice it's perfectly fine.

We use have 8v8v8 opportunities a long long time ago, and the premades back then curb stomped. To be fair, it was easier to spawn camp as well. What I'm saying is, 8 uncoordinated players will be worse than 4 - 8 coordinated players. There's a lot less sticking together in 8v8v8 if you aren't a premade.

Every game has been >20 ranged and and 4 "melee" jobs.

Battles devolved into throwing an AoE for freebie battle high and then running away.

They need to cut the healing from recuperate on ranged jobs in half and make it so sprint falls off and goes on cooldown when taking damage.

Since they've decided to remove CC from the melee jobs and leave most ranged jobs with access two 2, killing ranged jobs has been nothing but aggravating.

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Originally Posted by Teno

Couple of observations:

- Tanks : Rampart makes you near invincible, much more valuable than I anciticipated. With GNB and the circle it's so many free counter attacks. On warrior you can rotate bloodwhetting+aoe, rampart and guard for dozens of seconds of near invincibility. Full Swing is also a blast as expected, after monk's stun removal I am satisfied.

- Melees : swift is very very strong. You can already see plenty of vipers just diving in and juggling anti-cc, scales, guard and whatnot. on top of the hp regen. And then get out with swift after the last scales because of the slightly delayed regen so you have time to retreat. The dash to any friendly also helps now. Bloodbath and ninja/samurai works very well.

- Ranged : the guard pierce attack is good.

- Casters : the meteor is good, but with the modifiers it sometimes feel a bit underwhelming.

- Healers : diabrosis is good, you can definitely feel the impact but it's not overbearing either, people just back off earlier.

Very fun skills all around, some very strong, near op stuff on paper, yet in practice it's perfectly fine.

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100% agree about Rampart. Once I got bored of the Full Swing punt, this felt like way the best tank option.

Diabrosis is my AST default. I was frustrated by the long cooldown at first since you really want it before doublecast gravity, but realistically much shorter would make it OP. You really have to stay ranged with the squishy classes - any foray into the melee gets you deleted. Oh and I want my 4s back on Epicycle, dammit.

Still too much CC for my liking.

My main worry is that when the zerg splits, an enemy on full zerg just annihilates the smaller numbers. I think this will only get magnified as premades find the ideal stack.

The meteors need a graphics detune IMO, there is already too much mess even on "some effects" and this just gives me a headache.

I must say I hate the battle high changes. You don't feel rewarded for getting it at all, especially in Borderlands because pve actually rewards a lot of it too.
I wish they could dial it down back to 2 per assist. If I had my way I'd actually do it 10 per kill divided by the amount of assist, down to 2.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I must say I hate the battle high changes. You don't feel rewarded for getting it at all, especially in Borderlands because pve actually rewards a lot of it too.
I wish they could dial it down back to 2 per assist. If I had my way I'd actually do it 10 per kill divided by the amount of assist, down to 2.

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I don't hate the BH change, but see your point, plus I don't really understand the motivation.

Pre-change, if I got BH5 and we won I'd be pretty sure I played decent. Yesterday, getting anything other than BH5 either meant I played poorly or the team got steamrolled.

More generally I feel anything like this that is easily capped just indicates a tuning issue.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I must say I hate the battle high changes. You don't feel rewarded for getting it at all, especially in Borderlands because pve actually rewards a lot of it too.
I wish they could dial it down back to 2 per assist. If I had my way I'd actually do it 10 per kill divided by the amount of assist, down to 2.

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If anything it feels more rewarding now to try and sync with teammates and not go for the "ks". More freedom to coordinate with people you recognize in an fl since you're not competing for bh as much.

Though it means that every bard and their mother is bh5 now.

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Originally Posted by Teno

If anything it feels more rewarding now to try and sync with teammates and not go for the "ks". More freedom to coordinate with people you recognize in an fl since you're not competing for bh as much.

Though it means that every bard and their mother is bh5 now.

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Yeah in one match yesterday a bard's couerl kitten in their house got BH5 and beat the snot out of a black hayate.

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Originally Posted by gidsonBrand

From what little we've seen in preliminary patch notes and role actions, Frontlines is getting a ton of new options for aggressive play.

When Dragoon, Dark Knight, and all of the other "good" classes got their damage nerfed, we received no alternative options for offense. People have still found a way to make impactful plays, but it's just the same thing with a bit less oomph.

These new role actions, especially Rampage and Dervish, seem to promote new ways of attacking with and supporting your team. Combine that with the Battle High changes that allow the buff to spread more evenly across your team, and I think the devs are finally understanding that offense and aggression keep the game engaging.

I hope that the unseen role actions also encourage people to coordinate attacks with a group, and that Secure turns out to be a great place to play with my friends.

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We found a way to make a few job works together, it is way more fun than it used to be in HW, SB, ShB and EW, this is peak FL we have right now.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

My main worry is that when the zerg splits, an enemy on full zerg just annihilates the smaller numbers. I think this will only get magnified as premades find the ideal stack.

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Already been found, sort of. Me and my friends did a simple 2 Dragoon + Dark Knight + Dancer comp last night. It was great for mid-fights, especially on the Tower and Stack mechanics.

The best part though, was fighting for the side objectives. Baited a ton of people onto the objective with Dark Knight LB, then Dancer LB + 2 Dragoons managed to net us 10ish kills thanks to the Sheer Will buff.
Which was awesome, seeing as how before a 4v10 would have just been GG for us. Now we can actually fight back if we have a plan.

Hard agree, I only did some yesterday to try new Secure and it's giga fun. Changing it from boring "kill adds mid" to playing DDR WHILE fighting off two alliances was an inspired change and with how it works you're more incentivised to go in which solves the issue people had with being slapped off the cliff by MCH/MNK constantly. The jump pads and on-screen timer completely mitigate the excuse people had for ignoring mid in the old version and the new actions are super fun to use. They cooked with this update for PvP.

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Originally Posted by gidsonBrand

Already been found, sort of. Me and my friends did a simple 2 Dragoon + Dark Knight + Dancer comp last night. It was great for mid-fights, especially on the Tower and Stack mechanics.

The best part though, was fighting for the side objectives. Baited a ton of people onto the objective with Dark Knight LB, then Dancer LB + 2 Dragoons managed to net us 10ish kills thanks to the Sheer Will buff.
Which was awesome, seeing as how before a 4v10 would have just been GG for us. Now we can actually fight back if we have a plan.

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O_o

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How do Healers feel about the role actions? I tried stoneskin my first go but having a shield doesn't feel that impactful but it is probably really hard to gauge the impact it has. Diabrosis seems like it will always be useful. Not too sure about the Haelan one but I don't think I'll be using it.

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Originally Posted by St0rmy

How do Healers feel about the role actions? I tried stoneskin my first go but having a shield doesn't feel that impactful but it is probably really hard to gauge the impact it has. Diabrosis seems like it will always be useful. Not too sure about the Haelan one but I don't think I'll be using it.

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Ha, was about to ask the same question. Diabrosis is really good, but I'm wondering on some maps if Stoneskin adding survivability might better benefit the team.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Ha, was about to ask the same question. Diabrosis is really good, but I'm wondering on some maps if Stoneskin adding survivability might better benefit the team.

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Stoneskin benefits the DRK, at least. Any extra Shielding your front liners can get is always a good thing, but I think Diabrosis is better.

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Originally Posted by St0rmy

How do Healers feel about the role actions? I tried stoneskin my first go but having a shield doesn't feel that impactful but it is probably really hard to gauge the impact it has. Diabrosis seems like it will always be useful. Not too sure about the Haelan one but I don't think I'll be using it.

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Harlan is great for sage since it currently lacks a spammable punchy heal. It uses your MP and has no cooldown, so if you're in a position on the backline and see an ally getting ganged up on, it allows you to buy them time to make their escape.

Diabrosis with scholar is very powerful. It compliments scholars existing aoe dot. Since sch has two stacks of adlo and great aoe healing, I don't think Haelan or Stoneskin fill any gap in their toolkit, but I haven't tried them.

My plan is to try Stoneskin for White Mage because it lacks group shield. I tend to play whm as a super feisty hit and run so don't know if diabrosis would be compatible with how I play the job.

Much needed change, feel rewarding for participating now for battle high gains instead of people just getting last hits and not spreading BH out, people also actually die instead of seeing 20 people whale on a melee or tank like in EW for 30 seconds to kill them and seeing nothing die.