Seriously, it's the white knights who should leave the game (not trolling)

I'm not trying to open a discussion with the following. This is a fire and forget diatribe in the truest sense of the word.

To the white knights:
The nature of people (humans) and how they react to stimulus, and how they behave socially at scale, that is not going to change. We are talking about genetics and instinct. We are talking about pools cultural inertia far larger than this game and your voices in it.
Unless the game changes adequately you will always have yesterday's new players, becoming tomorrow's jaded, bored, disillusioned veterans.
(If you are lucky. If you are unlucky, the new players will dry up, and then your game WILL die. I think there are many white knights who are actually fine with the game dieing, as long as it can stay their happy game until it does, because they have already reverse rationalised to themselves, that that's inevitable for every MMO. Which I agree with. The question is 'when'. WoW still isn't dieing yet. Not nearly. And it was. But they did what needed to be done. They changed, and it became a new game. My god did we learn nothing with 1.0 Vs ARR?!)

So I am quite serious in the point I am making. It is you who just need to get used to how the game is and that it makes people fedup, and that you will always have this in your community. It is the 'reality' of how XIV shapes it's community, or it is 'you' that needs to leave and 'go play other games', hopping from one game to the next, every time a game gets things wrong and the players start to complain. Because everyone gets it wrong sometimes.

Humans be humans.

Or you need to just stop complaining about people complaining (oh the irony) and stay in Island sanctuary, or keep soloing Khloes books, or standing around Limsa ostracizing the players you don't approve of, or getting back to progging ultimates with those 3trd party tools or what ever it is you've been doing for five or more years.

I'm not trying to piss you off (I just accept I will but you'll get over it because you don't respect my opinion much anyway). But I am trying to make a point that will hopefully, sow a seed in subconscious of just a few of the more mentally agile and flexible among you.
It might be that it's you that are the more resilient ones. It might that yours is the best way to lead a happy content life. But your not going to be able to make other people more resilient, and frankly you don't sound 'happy' about other people being unhappy.

Or maybe you can actually start to contribute to making things better and do a little bit of campaigning to make things better where they need to be (changing the bloody software) instead of just complaining about complaints.

But... I guess people don't change. Like I say I'm just trying to sow one or two seeds where 98 others will never grow. Making a big change needs more charisma than I have.

I doubt cider will read this properly if at all. It's too long and boring for any YouTube audience. I didn't come to the forums for you tube attention in the first place.

goober moment

XD
I don't entirely know what that means, but I think I know enough and it makes me laugh. Because I probably agree. This is just a game, it doesn't matter, so I'm not going to bother filtering what I think. I'm just gonna keep doing stuff. Because everything we've chosen to do and not do hasn't worked so far.
One thing that DEFINITELY WILL NEVER WORK is doing nothing. As far as I can see this forum is all we have if we don't have the charisma or sufficient lack of self awareness to be a YouTuber (it never both but sometimes I think it is the other).
Oh cider, you've got bags of self awareness, and a lot of charisma. Think your vids are great. I understand you can't afford to take all our shit seriously. Keep at the forums, your a leveling perspective, you question what you see, and you keep a mind of your own while taking stuff on board. (As far as I can tell)

And that's why you should never drink and post, kids :D

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

But I am trying to make a point that will hopefully, sow a seed in subconscious of just a few of the more mentally agile and flexible among you.

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And if this was indeed a try at being subtle, then... well... I see a lot of space for you to improve in that category ;)

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

...

The nature of people (humans) and how they react to stimulus, and how they behave socially at scale, that is not going to change.
...

Humans be humans.

...

But your not going to be able to make other people more resilient

...

Making a big change needs more charisma than I have.

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Back at you.

Some people are happy with the game. They don't see problems with it the way others do. Is it that hard to understand why those people are puzzled over why the complainers don't just quit the game?

Because it's clear the game is not going to change in the way the complainers would like. The developers have their own vision for the game that they're following. As players and paying customers, we need to be willing to follow along with them. Or to leave if we don't want to pay for what we're getting.

Change doesn't need charisma. Change needs courage, and seems like a lot of posters around here don't have the courage to change games.

I'd just rather people accept that others have different thoughts on different things and behave accordingly, put context to their reason, understand the other persons point of view. This goes for criticize and defend.

If someone has attached themself to this game so hard that any negative talk against it is seen as a personal insult then that's on them, it's most definitely an unhealthy thing to make a game part of your very identity to the point where saying something bad against the game is the same or worse than saying something bad about them.

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

It is you who just need to get used to how the game is and that it makes people fedup, and that you will always have this in your community.

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I'm aware of that from playing other MMORPGs. All MMORPGs have things to be negative about. The difference is always that the happy players just focus on the aspects they enjoy and that make them happy, rather than expecting everything to be perfect.

It's a bit like life. Most people would say that life is not perfect and they just deal with their circumstances - such as living in a bad neighborhood, high taxes, high bills, laws they don't agree with, products they need but that are badly designed and annoying. But many of those people just focus on the aspects of it that they do like and that make them happy, such as their friends, because the alternative is perpetual depression.

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Or you need to just stop complaining about people complaining

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For me personally, it's about providing scrutiny of the complaints. Conspiracy theories are a common thing these days, but if those conspiracy theorists tried to disprove their own conspiracy theories they often would. For example, the 5g thing is ridiculous. On the other hand, the Wuhan lab explanation had merit. Scrutiny of the scrutiny is important.

Instead, it is typical for humans to live in echo chambers - communities of people who share the exact same view. They perpetuate eachother's view, such that it becomes the normal and accepted viewpoint. It's made worse by websites like Facebook where they simply remove friends that don't see things the same way, or join groups where everyone thinks the same thing.

So you see, people of opposing views posting on these forums is good. Seeing things from an alternative perspective can make you consider an alternative way to perceive it that you hadn't considered because of being so deep in this echo chamber.

The problem is really when none of the posts are constructive, and don't have any depth whatsoever. Whether someone is being positive or negative, if the post lacks depth and doesn't explain why, how, bullet point issues, reasons and examples, it doesn't contribute anything really.

TL:DR
People don't change, you can’t win arguments online, OP is an insufferable douche

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Originally Posted by CVXIV

goober moment

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Damn, you did my reply better

Ideally..

Nobody should leave the game... This is just needless finger pointing of "No u"

Realistically all they need to do is find a solution that benefits all categories of players, e.g., finding that middle-ground without reducing the content to a husk, relic progression in Endwalker is a perfect example of this.. Or without giving people mountains to climb.. They can reach this balance.. Stormblood, IMO, was this balance.

It's healthy for people to have a contrary thought, e.g., thinking the game is good, the issue is just solely that some people will just outright dismiss or attack, rather than actually trying to understand.. If some people merely asked or tried to prod people then everything would be much easier.. But sometimes winning an argument on the internet, or trying to 1-up someone on the internet is far, far more important than trying to have a proper discussion.. Now this isn't exclusive to one side, but it's the far bigger problem than telling 1 group of people to leave.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Back at you.

Some people are happy with the game. They don't see problems with it the way others do. Is it that hard to understand why those people are puzzled over why the complainers don't just quit the game?

Because it's clear the game is not going to change in the way the complainers would like. The developers have their own vision for the game that they're following. As players and paying customers, we need to be willing to follow along with them. Or to leave if we don't want to pay for what we're getting.

Change doesn't need charisma. Change needs courage, and seems like a lot of posters around here don't have the courage to change games.

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Back at you.

Some people are unhappy with parts of the game that are being changed constantly, in their eyes, for the worst. They still cling to the game for many different reasons, like being satisfied or entertained by other types of content, or the community, or whatever. The usual "just quit the game if you don't like it" is not only offensive but misinformed. I may be especially scathing with what SE has done with a product that I have by now probably poured more than a thousand bucks in subscription alone into, that I used to be the audience for, and that is now considering me as an inconvenient thing that they would rather discard or alienate away. I do feel that I have a right to make myself heard because a game that's been a non negligible part of my life, that I pay for, have supported for years through many other means even, is slowly being butchered for another audience.

The real issue is that a lot of happy customers feel like we, older players, are a threat to their game and enjoyment, or our existence and opinions are somehow offensive to theirs. In reality it's become exactly like politics. We do not see eye to eye on what the game should be, and just because the developers suddenly swing your way doesn't mean I'm going to shut up. "White Knights", or who the word truly is aimed at, aren't just content to "be puzzled over why complainers dont quit". White knights will consistently show up, start up ad hominem replies because they cannot actually address the points being made. White knights will bait discussions out of constructive criticism into flamebait and mudslinging. And I'm perfectly happy to accept that the other side will also show up in happy bubbly threads about the game and constantly crap over their posters in the same fits of rage, because yes it goes both ways.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Ideally..

Nobody should leave the game... This is just needless finger pointing of "No u"

Realistically all they need to do is find a solution that benefits all categories of players, e.g., finding that middle-ground without reducing the content to a husk, relic progression in Endwalker is a perfect example of this.. Or without giving people mountains to climb.. They can reach this balance.. Stormblood, IMO, was this balance.

It's healthy for people to have a contrary thought, e.g., thinking the game is good, the issue is just solely that some people will just outright dismiss or attack, rather than actually trying to understand.. If some people merely asked or tried to prod people then everything would be much easier.. But sometimes winning an argument on the internet, or trying to 1-up someone on the internet is far, far more important than trying to have a proper discussion.. Now this isn't exclusive to one side, but it's the far bigger problem than telling 1 group of people to leave.

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Lots of good points from many posts above, including about this BS being "insufferable". I'm marking that as a win. It was meant to be as insufferable as the 'white knights' tells us to just leave.
And yes 'thank you'! It is so stupid to tell people, they need to do what you want, be you, or leave. That was my point. It is the worst thing that has been going on.
Really, really unpleasant, really toxic.
"your unhappy, I don't care, F off and quit spoiling my buzz, me and my interests first!"
If the logic is stay away, (then apart form the goobers like me) why are 'white knights' (not an adequate name but its understood) coming to the forums and reading these negative posts. 'leave!' why? Because that's not how people work. And its not just my fellow goobers telling people to leave.
And that was the whole point of my post. I had an agenda, I was being a little bit manipulative. We've clearly got some seeds above that aren't going to grow. Or on other occasions one good goober deserves another.
It's not my idea of how to make friends. Influence people? It could be about 1/50. The ones that aren't influenced? Well, its my arrogance that they aren't going to be the least influenced my my post at all. Positively or negatively.

I originally said this post wasn't a discussion it was a diatribe. But I have accidentally opened up a discussion with myself.
For most of the current problems I've held Yoshi responsible only by virtue of him having the most power and opportunity to bring about change for the good. No 'blame' involved. Just repsonsibility.
But the whole 'you should leave' schism that's going on, that was badly inflamed when idol Yoshi, declared "[if you don't like it] please play other games"
He is to 'blame' for how bad this has got.
And I do think, if he were to care about what's been going on (and frankly he may not even know) that he should make a public statement expressing
'disappointment that community are telling each other they should leave, its not an outcome he would hope for, his wish for it to cease, and apologising for the part his ill judged words have personally played in that'
He has just set such a bad example. He has emboldened.... (I'll be more diplomatic), the people who are inclined not to compromise even the smallest bit of their own well being, if they thinnk their is an other option, that better suits them or the needs of those to whom their benefits are better aligned.
Yoshi, these people admire you.
They follow you.
They listen to you.
If you tell us to F off an enjoy other games.
They are going to go "my daddy Yoshi said you should F off! So F off!"

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Originally Posted by Valence

The usual "just quit the game if you don't like it" is not only offensive but misinformed. I may be especially scathing with what SE has done with a product that I have by now probably poured more than a thousand bucks in subscription alone into, that I used to be the audience for, and that is now considering me as an inconvenient thing that they would rather discard or alienate away. I do feel that I have a right to make myself heard because a game that's been a non negligible part of my life, that I pay for, have supported for years through many other means even, is slowly being butchered for another audience.

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Thank you for very much for that - it encompasses my own feelings much better than I could have. Its also a fact that is so often neglected by those that say that we can leave. Of course, a live service game evolves during its life, and it grows with the players. The changes of this game for the past few years however were more often more on the puzzling side than not.

Get off your cross honey, someone might need the wood.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Back at you.

Some people are unhappy with parts of the game that are being changed constantly, in their eyes, for the worst. They still cling to the game for many different reasons, like being satisfied or entertained by other types of content, or the community, or whatever. The usual "just quit the game if you don't like it" is not only offensive but misinformed. I may be especially scathing with what SE has done with a product that I have by now probably poured more than a thousand bucks in subscription alone into, that I used to be the audience for, and that is now considering me as an inconvenient thing that they would rather discard or alienate away. I do feel that I have a right to make myself heard because a game that's been a non negligible part of my life, that I pay for, have supported for years through many other means even, is slowly being butchered for another audience.

The real issue is that a lot of happy customers feel like we, older players, are a threat to their game and enjoyment, or our existence and opinions are somehow offensive to theirs. In reality it's become exactly like politics. We do not see eye to eye on what the game should be, and just because the developers suddenly swing your way doesn't mean I'm going to shut up. "White Knights", or who the word truly is aimed at, aren't just content to "be puzzled over why complainers dont quit". White knights will consistently show up, start up ad hominem replies because they cannot actually address the points being made. White knights will bait discussions out of constructive criticism into flamebait and mudslinging. And I'm perfectly happy to accept that the other side will also show up in happy bubbly threads about the game and constantly crap over their posters in the same fits of rage, because yes it goes both ways.

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Frankly, you should just quit the game. Because the game is dogshit and will never improve.

80% of the active characters are not even playing. They are just ERP, alts, or bots. This game is basically already dead - if you check the [forbidden stalking plugin] numbers it shows that most characters logged by LuckyBancho ain't even real people.

Vote with your wallet, and do your best to let disaster companies and studios shut down.

Now that's actually truly funny. Both sides actually telling me to unsub?

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Originally Posted by Valence

Now that's actually truly funny. Both sides actually telling me to unsub?

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No one can force you to do what you want to do, but do you really want to spend more time and money on this cesspit? On a company that doesn't care about you?

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

It's a bit like life. Most people would say that life is not perfect and they just deal with their circumstances - such as living in a bad neighborhood, high taxes, high bills, laws they don't agree with, products they need but that are badly designed and annoying.

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This comparison fails. These are things we can not avoid. This game is an optional service that we pay for willingly. Thus, the service must be worth the money, thus, the lack of that service must be criticized. In fact, it is rather stupid to accept a bad service and even go all the way out to defend it.

I'll say the same thing I say about any game, if you like it, play it, if you don't, don't play it. It's as simple as that. For the white knights, constructive criticism is a good thing, it lets the devs know what's wrong with the game and allows them to make changes. For you doomers, constant hate on this game isn't helping anything and you need to take a break for your own mental health. Speak your peace and walk away until the game gives you what you want.


"We'll if I unsub I'll lose my house!" Unless you have FC house, your house is worthless, how much time do you actually spend inside your house? I know I only spend about 5 minutes per month in mine.

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Originally Posted by Xapapetsu

For you doomers, constant hate on this game isn't helping anything

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Actually, it helps. There's a reason why Dawntrail has fewer new players than Heavensward and Stormblood, and it's because of its atrocious reputation.

For every doomer loudly hating on a game, we save a soul from having to experience this slop of a game. Players don't just have the power of the wallet, they also have the power of influencing reputation.

https://i.ibb.co/gbfcHKjg/Screenshot...-21-083437.png

Look at Civ 7, a horrendous, half-baked, pseudo-live-service game in the Civ franchise, that is now below Civ 5 in concurrent player count. Consumers complaining about the atrocious UI, the unreasonable content pipeline (that is a live service model in all but name), the idiotic AI has worked and dissuaded other players from wasting $70 on this game (which let's be realistic will not even get you half of the full experience since they plan on releasing DLC after DLC for years).

Consumers have the power to inflict pain and damage on billion dollar companies and their studios if they band together and loudly criticize the company. Negative reputation works: Assassin's Creed's disastrous reputation has threatened Ubisoft with financial meltdown and failure, and they now put far more effort into quality and AC Shadows seems to be one of their better games in a long time, at least I hope so (it sits at 82% on Steam right now and that is with the culture war sword of Damocles hanging over its neck in the form of Yasuke.)

When game studios are afraid, and think this is their last chance before they get shut down, they will go full steam ahead and pour their souls into the game. That is what happened with Final Fantasy I.

For-profit game companies are fundamentally, in this sort of economic system, locked in an antagonistic relationship with you, the consumer. If you don't fight against them they'll just exploit you over and over again.

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Originally Posted by Valence

- snip -

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This is really well put.

After my favorite game City of Heroes was shut down, FFXIV became my new home. I once no-lifed this game, but I have kids now. Steam informs me that I have clocked 5,691 hours of game time. There are 8,760 hours in a year (8,766 adjusted for leap years, or an additional 0.25 days in a year). When I mathed this out, it showed that I have spent 65% of a year playing this game. I have multiple alt characters (I know, I know, I can be all jobs on one character so why... yadda yadda yadda). I've spent more time in FFXIV than I ever spent in COH (which I now play again thanks to community-run servers popping up starting in 2019).

This isn't to say "look at me, I'm a veteran, so my opinion is the most important ever!" but to stress that when I say I love this game, I mean that I ADORE FFXIV. The most disingenuous response to criticism I see is "if you hate this game so much, go play something else." It is predicated on an assumption about my intent and motivations, on an assumption that criticism is born out of hatred. I feel so angry when people tell me how I feel, or make assumptions about my intents and motivations, because it shows a fundamental disinterest in understanding my point of view. After all, it's much easier to write me off if you assume that I don't care about something or hate it.

And it goes the same in the other direction. Assumptions are being made about why "white knights" are white knighting the game, which leads to ad hominem attacks happen. I cannot speak for why white knights are currently on the warpath against criticism but, as a former white knight myself, I ultimately realized that my responses came from a place of defensiveness and fear. After all, I had found a new home in FFXIV. I was afraid to lose another home. Whether I liked it or not, I had made this game a huge portion of my identity; in some ways it still is, but my relationship with it is healthier than it used to be. I was afraid that the complainers were right, that FFXIV was going downhill, and that it would die. Ultimately, many concerns the community had about the trajectory the game was headed - as far back as Stormblood/Shadowbringers - turned out to be remarkably prescient.

I am not here because I hate this game. I have way too much on my plate to add pointless, empty hatred to it. There aren't enough hours in the day and it's not worth it to waste my life hating a game. If I hated this game, I wouldn't be here.

I am here because I love this game so much. I am here because of the stories I have lived and created during my time in this game and the community. My frustrations with the parts of the game that I think need some serious attention and care come from my love of this game. I think about what this game has been, and what it could be, and I want to offer my support to it.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Now that's actually truly funny. Both sides actually telling me to unsub?

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Really this is my one big issue. Trying to emotionally appeal to people to quit. Knowing damn well they have like 20 alts and play more than anyone they're telling to quit.

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Originally Posted by Xapapetsu

I'll say the same thing I say about any game, if you like it, play it, if you don't, don't play it. It's as simple as that. For the white knights, constructive criticism is a good thing, it lets the devs know what's wrong with the game and allows them to make changes. For you doomers, constant hate on this game isn't helping anything and you need to take a break for your own mental health. Speak your peace and walk away until the game gives you what you want.


"We'll if I unsub I'll lose my house!" Unless you have FC house, your house is worthless, how much time do you actually spend inside your house? I know I only spend about 5 minutes per month in mine.

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Lady, if you hate the doomers, stop paying all your attention to them. Besides, not everyone who offers critique equals a doomer. ^^

Telling people to quit a game they might be playing for 10 years isn't productive. Those people are invested in the game and they don't like the direction its changed to. It makes way more sense to fight back instead of leaving.

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Originally Posted by Kazuke_Miso

Actually, it helps. There's a reason why Dawntrail has fewer new players than Heavensward and Stormblood, and it's because of its atrocious reputation.

For every doomer loudly hating on a game, we save a soul from having to experience this slop of a game. Players don't just have the power of the wallet, they also have the power of influencing reputation.

https://i.ibb.co/gbfcHKjg/Screenshot...-21-083437.png

Look at Civ 7, a horrendous, half-baked, pseudo-live-service game in the Civ franchise, that is now below Civ 5 in concurrent player count. Consumers complaining about the atrocious UI, the unreasonable content pipeline (that is a live service model in all but name), the idiotic AI has worked and dissuaded other players from wasting $70 on this game (which let's be realistic will not even get you half of the full experience since they plan on releasing DLC after DLC for years).

Consumers have the power to inflict pain and damage on billion dollar companies and their studios if they band together and loudly criticize the company. Negative reputation works: Assassin's Creed's disastrous reputation has threatened Ubisoft with financial meltdown and failure, and they now put far more effort into quality and AC Shadows seems to be one of their better games in a long time, at least I hope so (it sits at 82% on Steam right now and that is with the culture war sword of Damocles hanging over its neck in the form of Yasuke.)

When game studios are afraid, and think this is their last chance before they get shut down, they will go full steam ahead and pour their souls into the game. That is what happened with Final Fantasy I.

For-profit game companies are fundamentally, in this sort of economic system, locked in an antagonistic relationship with you, the consumer. If you don't fight against them they'll just exploit you over and over again.

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There's a difference between criticism to improve the quality of a game, and intentionally hating a game to cause it's downfall. I wouldn't call ffxiv slop, it's got it's flaws but it's still a good game especially from a new player perspective.

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Originally Posted by yesnt

Lady, if you hate the doomers, stop paying all your attention to them. Besides, not everyone who offers critique equals a doomer. ^^

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I said constructive criticism is a good thing for the game. Also the argument applies to people with a doomer attitude, if you don't like the game don't play it and don't consume content about it.

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Originally Posted by Xapapetsu

I said constructive criticism is a good thing for the game. Also the argument applies to people with a doomer attitude, if you don't like the game don't play it and don't consume content about it.

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Obviously, every single person who bought the subscription likes the game enough to pay for it. Thus, to assume people don't like the game just because their criticism is phrased in a way that hurts your white knight feelings is just: dismissive.

Or the people I assume you talk about are SO rich they don't care about the monthly fee and pay only to complain (who would do that tho), but you know what, a white knight should be happy about that since it supports their holy game and the company behind it.

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Originally Posted by yesnt

Obviously, every single person who bought the subscription likes the game enough to pay for it. Thus, to assume people don't like the game just because their criticism is phrased in a way that hurts your white knight feelings is just: dismissive.

Or the people I assume you talk about are SO rich they don't care about the monthly fee and pay only to complain (who would do that tho), but you know what, a white knight should be happy about that since it supports their holy game and the company behind it.

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You've never seen prior posts of mine pointing out all of the flaws I've seen in the game, or the feedback I gave when I saw the changes to blm have you? There's a proper way to express your concerns with the state of the game. Is it really necessary to nail your points to a coffin set it on fire and send them off on a viking funeral? Then again if you can't complain what else can you do in this content draught since there's obviously nothing better for you to do with your time.

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Originally Posted by Gunz_Zbestest

Really this is my one big issue. Trying to emotionally appeal to people to quit. Knowing damn well they have like 20 alts and play more than anyone they're telling to quit.

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I'll say it again, I'll leave and complain with my wallet the day there is nothing left for me to enjoy in this game. It is definitely true that things I do enjoy have been thinning, but not all of them are gone.

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Originally Posted by Xapapetsu

I wouldn't call ffxiv slop, it's got it's flaws but it's still a good game especially from a new player perspective.

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Unfortunately I am way past being a new player. I probably became a veteran before ShB was a thing. Perhaps even in mid HW if we count casual content.
XIV is definitely a great game for new players. It may also have lost some of its luster at lower levels due to job dilution through level progression and homogenization, but that's not what matters the most for new players. They have a crazy amount of good content to go through, the novelty is still there, and they have enough to be kept busy until the true endgame at max level. Maybe if they actually do start raiding or taking things more seriously, they may stumble on XIV's problems sooner than expected, but that's about it.
The problem is more at the level of player retention.
The new player experience is definitely not the issue there, even if it has its (growing) flaws.

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Originally Posted by Xapapetsu

You've never seen prior posts of mine pointing out all of the flaws I've seen in the game, or the feedback I gave when I saw the changes to blm have you? There's a proper way to express your concerns with the state of the game. Is it really necessary to nail your points to a coffin set it on fire and send them off on a viking funeral? Then again if you can't complain what else can you do in this content draught since there's obviously nothing better for you to do with your time.

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No, I don't stalk profiles. My bad.

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Originally Posted by yesnt

No, I don't stalk profiles. My bad.

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Then you shouldn't make assumptions, I have no problem calling out issues with the game, but I'm also not going to lock myself in an echo chamber feeding my frustrations with the game. I'll say my peace, and move on. If changes aren't made, I'll take a break and come back when the game offers me what I want from it. I've done it in the past and in the end it was beneficial for me to see the game in a new light when I came back.

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

It is so stupid to tell people, they need to do what you want, be you, or leave. That was my point.

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I'm not seeing anyone telling you that you need to do what they want or to be as they are. Suggestions to leave are usually done in good faith,

Ask yourself this: what benefit do you gain by continuing to pay for and play a game you no longer enjoy?

In case you're wondering, I'm on the way out myself. I am not enjoying the current game so I'm not going to spend any more money on it until it's back to a state I can enjoy. I just finished stripping two of my houses so I can relinquish them before the next lottery entry period starts and I'm waiting for a response from my friend that's trying to decide if he wants my personal FC house (that's going to get stripped and relinquished as well if not).

I'm not so delusional that I think things will change just because I keeping paying to complain. I don't know why so many others are still here after a couple of years of complaints about the state of the game. They're still unhappy and SE is USD180 (or more) richer from each and every one of them.

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Originally Posted by yesnt

In fact, it is rather stupid to accept a bad service and even go all the way out to defend it.

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It is also stupid to continue to pay for a bad service when you don't need it.

Basically op saying in sum up. If your shelling for SE your the problem and should leave. Thats like telling you guys in so many words if you suck at ff14 leave lol

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Originally Posted by Xapapetsu

There's a difference between criticism to improve the quality of a game, and intentionally hating a game to cause it's downfall. I wouldn't call ffxiv slop, it's got it's flaws but it's still a good game especially from a new player perspective.

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We need more games, studios, and companies to fail, actually. There's a reason a lot of publishers and studios all stopped working on live service games and cancelling their live service projects. These games failing is the clearest signal of player preferences, because certainly the marketing and product departments at these companies share less than half a necrotized neuron collectively.

If everything somehow manages to succeed even when no one asked for it, then game companies will never care about what you want to play. Because they can just pump out the lowest effort garbage slop and succeed anyways!

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Originally Posted by Kazuke_Miso

We need more games, studios, and companies to fail, actually. There's a reason a lot of publishers and studios all stopped working on live service games and cancelling their live service projects. These games failing is the clearest signal of player preferences, because certainly the marketing and product departments at these companies share less than half a necrotized neuron collectively.

If everything somehow manages to succeed even when no one asked for it, then game companies will never care about what you want to play. Because they can just pump out the lowest effort garbage slop and succeed anyways!

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That's true and they proper way to allow those companies to fail is by not supporting them, don't buy the game, don't pay your sub. Money talks I don't say take a break from the game and cancel your sub for no reason. If in the end sqex can't retain enough players to keep the game alive, it dies, if it can make good enough content to keep the game afloat or even better thriving, then it deserves to stay around.

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

I doubt cider will read this properly if at all.

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Who or what is cider?

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Who or what is cider?

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https://youtu.be/64SES-MnLwc

Does really good content. This is not the best or typical of his content either. But fans of the game are interested in the discussions going on in the game because noone, not even the white knights now, deny that there 'are' issues.
He really hates my posts though. They do wind him right up. So much he has to try and pretend I don't exists.
He says it's because I talk about leaving and never do. Not true. I started leadup to Xmas, and did leave by 3rd day of chaotic. Now I've left again. (2 weeks grace before lockout spreads to forum access).
I actually think he probably read one of my unhinged vents about high end players. Which were actually not ok if me. That's my guess. I'm also hard for some people to work me out because they assume people are one dimensional. Everyone is either a troll, or not, and that everyone has a fixed and immovable opinion. (I come to the forums for lots of reasons and how I react depends upon what I read and whats happened since the last time I considered my own opinion. Some shits funny. And everything is funny to someone. Thank god. )

Yeah cider does great content. He's one of the few positive XIV streamers 'creating' actual XIV content, that is constructively interested in how players interact with their feelings on the game, and has high emotional intelligence about it. To me at least cider is not at all a stupid guy. But he keeps his content entertaining, there is a balance to be struck. Most of the other content creators are just pretty much pure high end gamers, doing their best analyse player sentiment the same way they analyse their Ultimate prog and job changes. They usually don't get very far with fully empathising, and so fall at the last hurdle.
I strongly doubt this post is going to change his mind about my being a goober XD.
(But I've had some really hostile shit from 'some' highend players, stemming from their focus on highend, that I won't go into, and I was too invested in the game to leave and also not give shit.)