why every FF14 healer is berserk healer

i played World of Warcraft healer only do healing

FF14 healer must be battle mage FF14 has no pure healer job all healer in FF14 are berserk healer like Yuuki Asuna

I just wish we had a DPS rotation that could at least be on the same level as Tanks.

I am of the opposite opinion and agree with Solitum, I want to play a healer when I want to heal, if I want to just deal damage I can already do that on a whole lot of jobs, the most of jobs per role actually.

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Originally Posted by St0rmy

I just wish we had a DPS rotation that could at least be on the same level as Tanks.

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Trust me a tank it's really not much better for us rotation wise.

spamming 1, 2, 3 and burst buttons is not interesting compared to things that could be added to healers like Procs, more dot timers ect.

Unless you’re basically not playing, there isn’t a single healer in retail WoW that isn’t also doing damage.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

I am of the opposite opinion and agree with Solitum, I want to play a healer when I want to heal, if I want to just deal damage I can already do that on a whole lot of jobs, the most of jobs per role actually.

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The CNJ questline literally tries to get people to drop that line of thinking.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Trust me a tank it's really not much better for us rotation wise.

spamming 1, 2, 3 and burst buttons is not interesting compared to things that could be added to healers like Procs, more dot timers ect.

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We just need to go back to how SB was. It was so much more engaging. :(

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Originally Posted by Canadane

The CNJ questline literally tries to get people to drop that line of thinking.

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Yes, many old questlines are bad, news at 11.

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Originally Posted by Solitum

i played World of Warcraft healer only do healing

FF14 healer must be battle mage FF14 has no pure healer job all healer in FF14 are berserk healer like Yuuki Asuna

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We had at some point very heal intensive fight but we have some players rejecting this type of play and dev want to lower difficulty

So here we are everyone just dps, dps with slightly bigger number, dps with better defence and hp pool and dps that could heal

It was both and it should be both. They need to vary the healing needs a lot more by fights and comps and not stick to the same regularly scheduled ddr damage patterns, and also provide more damage tools for the fights with less healing. Remove some of the oGCD healing if needed to force more casted heals.

DPS loss from healing needs to be normalized, aiming to reduce overhealing should be rewarded with more dps. A 100% dps uptime shouldn't be achievable with this role, even in normal content.

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

It was both and it should be both. They need to vary the healing needs a lot more by fights and comps and not stick to the same regularly scheduled ddr damage patterns, and also provide more damage tools for the fights with less healing. Remove some of the oGCD healing if needed to force more casted heals.

DPS loss from healing needs to be normalized, aiming to reduce overhealing should be rewarded with more dps. A 100% dps uptime shouldn't be achievable with this role, even in normal content.

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In fact, if need I'd rather have all healing be GCDs and all damage be oGCDs. At least that way around it'd "feel" more like you're a healer, even if the net result were entirely the same output.

If all healing was GCD and all damage was oGCD, all you've done is make me not use any GCDs for minutes at a time and making me wait until I can do a thing that's actually conducive to party success. That doesn't "make me feel like a healer", that just makes me feel like dead weight until the oGCD comes off cooldown.

In order to feel like a healer, there needs to be enough incoming damage to warrant having to spend time healing. At that point, it doesn't matter if you have 50 DPS buttons or 5 DPS buttons, healing will take priority and as such, you would "feel" like a healer even if you only had 2 healing spells.

The feel of a job is about what gets regularly used in a kit, not whether or not it says Spell or Ability. Stormblood really was the high point for healing; enough incoming damage, not too many oGCD heals to replace the GCD heals, and a healthy amount of attack variety when you didn't need to heal (or felt you could risk another hit).

It feels like we’re deliberately made to not need to heal constantly so that it’s easier to get into healing, especially in msq/normal content. The skill floor in content without dps checks is to press a heal once in a while. And then in raids, optimization is in how well can you keep your gcd rolling (which is relevant at all times when the boss is targetable) and then how much you can minimize your gcd heals, (which is only relevant when damage it going out).

With how the game is designed these days, more healing-intensive fights can cause problems since mitigation is a big deal but you can’t trust your teammates in Savage party finder to actually know what Feint and Addle are for. Abyssos Savage was rough partially because of that, and it seemed like less people played healer in that tier than usual.

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Originally Posted by Voryn

With how the game is designed these days, more healing-intensive fights can cause problems since mitigation is a big deal but you can’t trust your teammates in Savage party finder to actually know what Feint and Addle are for. Abyssos Savage was rough partially because of that, and it seemed like less people played healer in that tier than usual.

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Sounds like raidwide mitigation isn't something that should be every role's responsibility.

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

Sounds like raidwide mitigation isn't something that should be every role's responsibility.

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Kind of...? I mean mitigation in a vacuum isn't a problem, it's only becoming an issue if you can efficiently align tank & dps raidwide mitigation if it effectively has no gaps + the incoming damage is too infrequent and coordinated in bursts.

Same also applies to tank damage taken and kitchen sinking being something you can do due to how busters are spaced.

Realistically it would take the following to make healing requirements go up to warrant healer presence more:

• Tank busters (occasionally with DOTs too) being thrown more regularly and as part of raidwide damage (see Emerald Weapon EX p2 buster) or part of mechanics (see Neo-Exdeath "Delta Attack", Eden Prime savage "Delta Attack" inverted, Eden Leviathan savage "Black Smokers", DSR p6 "Wyrm's Breath" and many more).
• Raidwide damage and/or regular tank damage being much more frequent and also uninterrupted and less condensed in bursts (i.e. can't cover everything in 3+ layers of mitigation), slap bleeds in there for good measure.

Simply put, more damage that can be reasonably reacted to, can't be covered by bloats of mitigation forever and can't be covered by tanks & Dps healing alone.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Kind of...? I mean mitigation in a vacuum isn't a problem, it's only becoming an issue if you can efficiently align tank & dps raidwide mitigation if it effectively has no gaps + the incoming damage is too infrequent and coordinated in bursts.

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The (lack of) frequency is the big issue tbh. If we had near-constant raid damage, both widespread and targetted, then the ability of lots of jobs to produce and stack lots of mitigation would be less of a problem, as it'd only cover some comparatively brief moment of damage.

I feel every single fight in this game, including dungeon bosses, should have one or a combination of these mechanics:

* Constant DoT damage on the group.
* 360° cleaves on the autoattack timer that damage melee DPS and tanks.
* Random untelegraphed line or AoE attacks on people.
* Random individual hits on non-tanks.

None of these would be lethal (hence the lack of telegraphing). They would produce a steady and not insignificant (you can survive 2-3 hits, then you'd die if you get another one, so you need healing ASAP) and genuinely happen constantly, every 2.5s somebody suffers damage basically.

Then sure, give people lots of mitigation to stack.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Yes, many old questlines are bad, news at 11.

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Or good in that sense, at least, because how tf else would one deal with varied damage intake without going idle?

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Originally Posted by Carighan

The (lack of) frequency is the big issue tbh. If we had near-constant raid damage, both widespread and targetted, then the ability of lots of jobs to produce and stack lots of mitigation would be less of a problem, as it'd only cover some comparatively brief moment of damage.

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Mostly agreed on the whole, but...

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Constant DoT damage on the group.

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This seems the dullest possible way to provide that, especially without a thematic reason for that (e.g., being visibly toasted/frozen/electrified constantly).

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360° cleaves on the autoattack timer that damage melee DPS and tanks.

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This just screws melee disproportionately. I'd far rather they be involved in de-pressuring the tank by baiting briefly-telegraphed attacks off them (think Caudal Swipe) and the tank autos (or energy built from them to be spent on raidwides) be significant enough to make that extra-role gameplay near-obligatory.

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Random untelegraphed line or AoE attacks on people.

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I'd argue they don't even have to be untelegraphed. As long as the damage is increased enough to already put (barely buffed) leads in on-demand healing at parity, this would just disproportionately hurt %miti and other time-sensitive preemptive sustain.

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Random individual hits on non-tanks.

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Sure. Though I'd love for some of them to be more actively interceptible by tanks as well. No need to forgo gameplay elsewhere when we could just tune averages around it.

wait healer are needed now? I tho it wasn't needed since they keep clearing the hardest content without one?

but on all seriousness they should remove all healing from DPS and lower healing on tanks like other then blackmage all DPS have a 500 potency aoe heal all Melee and ranged have a second wind with 1000 potency gunbreaker and darknight heals are fine because they fill balanced take warrior and pal tho and it's a whole new story. Paladin magic DPS phase that heal is fine it's 400 per hit but clemency need to be removed or tuned down. warrior well is warrior if you cue with one just leave you are literally pointless

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Originally Posted by Nero-Voidstails

wait healer are needed now? I tho it wasn't needed since they keep clearing the hardest content without one?

but on all seriousness they should remove all healing from DPS and lower healing on tanks like other then blackmage all DPS have a 500 potency aoe heal all Melee and ranged have a second wind with 1000 potency gunbreaker and darknight heals are fine because they fill balanced take warrior and pal tho and it's a whole new story. Paladin magic DPS phase that heal is fine it's 400 per hit but clemency need to be removed or tuned down. warrior well is warrior if you cue with one just leave you are literally pointless

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I want you to explain, in proper sentences and with proper grammar, why Bloodbath on Melees is a problem. Nothing else. Specifically Bloodbath. I want you to detail why Bloodbath needs to be removed. I want numbers. I want reasoning. I want scenerios that you have seen and experienced.

You called for all dps heals to be removed, and I'm asking about 1 specific one. I'd like your reasoning. Can't wait to hear it.

Shurrikan, the whole point is to forcible deal constant damage to non-tanks.

Not lethal damage, but "some" damage (depending on the type and AoE pattern we're talking anywhere from 10% to 40% of someone's average HP here, so that 2 hits will *barely* not kill you, but a third one would. With this being near-unavoidable (flat DoT, untelegraphed, 360° cleaves, etc), it forcibly causes near-constant damage input into the raid, and not evenly to everyone. Hence semi-constant healing is required, and utilizing single-target heals, too. Hence also sometimes bosses specifically going more for the melee (or the ranged~), to make just spamming group heals inefficient.
And as long as these mechanics briefly (3-5s) stop before major raid hits, it's fine, there's one last chance to re-heal before the big AoEs.

And yeah of course something like a flat DoT is boring, hence why I said fights should employ any or all in combination. Could even vary throughout the course of fights. Could be anything. But like the idea is that you have 1-X mechanics between flat damage, specific damage (say, just melee), various AoE patterns or random targetted shots, all of those constantly require healer attention to re-heal the damage as the damage just cannot be avoided.

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

I want you to explain, in proper sentences and with proper grammar,

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Looking at that post, aren't you setting the bar a little high there?

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Originally Posted by Canadane

We just need to go back to how SB was. It was so much more engaging. :(

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Man, I wish we would go back. Can the modern audience handle it though?

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

Looking at that post, aren't you setting the bar a little high there?

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Its half of the reason why I've asked them, and only them, to defend their position.

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Originally Posted by CSX

Man, I wish we would go back. Can the modern audience handle it though?

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You children and your modern game designs.

I want to go back to how Everquest was designed. With specific for-solo-play classes, required group classes like Warrior, Cleric and Enchanter you needed for every single group, and multiple-hour CD skills. Not this lame for-kiddos stuff like 30 seconds cooldowns and not even losing XP and delevelling when you die. Modern MMORPGs are just designed for weaklings...

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

Sounds like raidwide mitigation isn't something that should be every role's responsibility.

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I'm fine with mit being everyone's responsibility. My issue is that 99% of raidwides are one big hit - which just needs a lot of mit and makes shield healers superior. DoTs are snapshotted, so mitigation also affects them (this should straight up not be a thing, imo), which lead to problems in Abyssos. DPS wouldn't mit the snapshot, healers then had issues healing through the unmitigated DoT and got blamed when people died.

add a holy knight healer with more then one button of damage and i'd actually wanna play this game

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

add a holy knight healer with more then one button of damage and i'd actually wanna play this game

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Equip Paladin-looking gear on your Warrior, done. :P

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Originally Posted by Carighan

I am of the opposite opinion and agree with Solitum, I want to play a healer when I want to heal, if I want to just deal damage I can already do that on a whole lot of jobs, the most of jobs per role actually.

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You're in the wrong game, and it's been repeated countless times, in this game healers are green dps, end of the line. If you want a pure healer you gotta find another game.

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Originally Posted by CSX

Man, I wish we would go back. Can the modern audience handle it though?

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There was nothing complex. The current audience handles tanks and dps just fine, it can handle healers from back then. After all, it went from a normal gameplay akin to tanks/dps, to pure 111.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Equip Paladin-looking gear on your Warrior, done. :P

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Nah it gotta have a sword and shield axe aren't cool, war also doesn't have cool light holy animations.

Closest I'll get is putting armor on my white mage but armor on casters isn't allowed :(

Yeah, let's beserk that one button and actually deal no damage.

Because 95% of the content only needs light heals (if any heals at all) and standing there doing nothing is wasteful & boring. I cant imagine just sitting there in ffxiv and wait for somebody to take damage (long pulls with bad players). But healers are stupid broken for most content due to them farming out our abilities to others. Most Tanks can self sustain though most fights w/o heals at all. With the right dps classes you can leave the healer on the bench and add a 3rd dps. I am NOT a top tier raider and neither are my friends and we run w/o a healer quite often. Which sucks because I enjoy playing support classes. But to answer your question they are not berserk they are just bored to death and trying to stay awake, yet sadly with that complicated rotation for dps 111111111113111111111111 most of them end up taking a nap anyways.

I argue that the charm/appeal of FFXIV's healer design was finding the balance between doing DPS and Healing. Knowing your healing kit rewards you (Or at least should reward you) with more time to deal damage thus contribute further to the party's progress.
In themselves healing kits in general are very very bland. Mechanically they barely have interesting mechanics: GCD healing is as basic and simple as it gets. Cast spell, it heals target. Cast AoE spell it heals party. It's always point blank/targeted spells. Same cast time, almost identical potency between healers. In terms of of GCD usage, healers are very boring. Sustain healing would be as dull as DPS is.
That's why a lot of people point out the over abundance of powerful oGCDs that can take the brunt of the healing to be a design problem.

The tragedy of healer design is that your reward for healing optimally and efficiently making use of all your tools is more Glare spam.

In any case, I still personally want some more filler dps GCD variety. The pruning of our DPS kit is honestly unacceptable. They removed interesting interactions/trade offs and replaced them with more redundant tools, which incidentally only free our healing GCD tools to replace them with more Glarebroil spam. I find balancing DPS and Healing to be the best showcasing of a healer's ability. I wish this gameplay was more interesting rather than always defaulting the one boring and repetitive single damage attack we have.

I used to feel like doing more dps was a reward for being good at healing but after a few years and tanks increasingly taking my job away it's flipped, healing has become my reward for people doing stupid stuff and the tank being incompetent, it's anathema to the role of "healer".

I think that some healers need a rework sage is one of them to fit a offensive healer sch should have more debuff to give to enemies, whm should have more buff defensive one and be stronger against undead and astro should be a mix better sch and whm but with more dots

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Trust me a tank it's really not much better for us rotation wise.

spamming 1, 2, 3 and burst buttons is not interesting compared to things that could be added to healers like Procs, more dot timers ect.

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Way more interesting than what healers have.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

In fact, if need I'd rather have all healing be GCDs and all damage be oGCDs. At least that way around it'd "feel" more like you're a healer, even if the net result were entirely the same output.

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For me, Healers would receive a damage rotation. Not very complex, something like what SMN does. And its damage should be on par with the weaker DPS (something tanks also should be able to do). But all heals, all support (mits, shields, regens, buffs, etc) are now GCD. And all spells uses MP, specially attacks (alas, I think everyone should use MP to do their attacks, even melee DPS should go OOM if he's too aggressive, but that is another talk).

It will make every heal DPS negative, true. But it's the heal price.

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Originally Posted by Towns

Unless you’re basically not playing, there isn’t a single healer in retail WoW that isn’t also doing damage.

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That's false. You can admit where WoW is better than FFXIV. Healers in WoW do damage as a secondary function. They are primarily healing, and they squeeze in some DPS when they can for optimization and fun. You cannot do an instance in WoW without a healer. And I mean in general, so please don't come at me with 0.0001% edge cases where a WoW healer isn't needed.

On the other hand, people regularly discuss how FFXIV is the reverse and healing is considered optimization. You can fairly easily do FFXIV instances without a dedicated healer. FFXIV doesn't have a trinity. It has a dyad. If you play as a tank or DPS, this game can be a lot of fun!

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Originally Posted by NYCLouisGamer

That's false. You can admit where WoW is better than FFXIV. Healers in WoW do damage as a secondary function. They are primarily healing, and they squeeze in some DPS when they can for optimization and fun. You cannot do an instance in WoW without a healer. And I mean in general, so please don't come at me with 0.0001% edge cases where a WoW healer isn't needed.

On the other hand, people regularly discuss how FFXIV is the reverse and healing is considered optimization. You can fairly easily do FFXIV instances without a dedicated healer. FFXIV doesn't have a trinity. It has a dyad. If you play as a tank or DPS, this game can be a lot of fun!

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This is true, and I wouldn't even mind it if they steered the game hard into a GW2-like direction where everyone is just "DPS-and-X". But that also means that like in GW2, the vast majority of each job's arsenal should be devoted to DPS. Something the tanks get to enjoy, just not the healers, who are saddled with 20+ healing buttons when - given some rebalancing - 3-4 would easily be enough given the anemic healing requirements even the tougher raids have.

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Originally Posted by Towns

Unless you’re basically not playing, there isn’t a single healer in retail WoW that isn’t also doing damage.

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Originally Posted by NYCLouisGamer

That's false.

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It's not. I've played each in all but mythic raids. We do damage whenever able. 3 healers' heading kits can't even access anywhere from a large portion to a majority of their functionality without said damage-dealing.

I realize that your response to what you started your post by quoting has little to do with the majority of your post, and I could agree with that remainder easily enough, but why even bother with the non-sequitor, let alone one that's obviously wrong?

Even then, though, healing (as with any other output) is never considered an "optimization" except in terms of the long-term / least-capped output thereby possible, which is virtually always damage because virtually all fights are ended through damage. I.e., unless the encounter ends from healing something or straight up surviving for X time or moving from A to B, etc., optimizing healing can only ever produce, and have its value measured by, increased damage. That can be my letting someone greed, buffs, uptime, direct damage, or whatever other means, but it's still about damage. (Even keeping people alive... is for the damage. And if you'd clear faster by letting someone die at a certain point, that becomes optimal per the point of healing, which is still that longest-term output.)

That's the case for every MMO, so long as the win conditions are the same.

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

I want you to explain, in proper sentences and with proper grammar, why Bloodbath on Melees is a problem. Nothing else. Specifically Bloodbath. I want you to detail why Bloodbath needs to be removed. I want numbers. I want reasoning. I want scenerios that you have seen and experienced.

You called for all dps heals to be removed, and I'm asking about 1 specific one. I'd like your reasoning. Can't wait to hear it.

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sorry if English isn't my first language there and I also never mention bloodbath because well it is no broken in the slightest but again I forgot that most of this community isn't really great so I will pass and please learn to be kind instead. Not everyone is perfect at everything