Koana will save the hhetso

He will save the hhetso

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Koana: I will save the hhetso!

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https://i.imgur.com/Fvcsu7p.png

They'll probably just eat it and turn the hide into a rug later, anyways.

These animals are Turali, just like my people! ...but not the other animals trying to eat them, those should all be killed.

did you know that he will save the hhetso?

Ahahahahahahaha I'm so glad I'm not the only one, Thank you xD

I keep thinking that the writing quality can't have any more cliffs off of which to fall, but if they won't surprise me with a good story, at least they're surprising me with unlimited cliff-generation.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

These animals are Turali, just like my people! ...but not the other animals trying to eat them, those should all be killed.

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We need more naturally energy shielded dinosaurs!

Shaaloani 7.1 arc is probably the most stupid moment in the game since that one interaction with Asahi in SB... I get the idea of this sub plot, but omg the delivery is not there. I don't understand who is TA of this writing. An elementary schooler?

Your beloved father is about to get murdered by a madman who has clearly cheated the rules of dueling

Koana: "I sleep"

Some random buffalo you didn't gave two craps about 2 hours ago is about to get natural selection'd by a very dangeroues to approach preadator

Koana: "Real sh1t!" *runs to intercept the beast Leeroy Jenkins-style*

If not for the thiccest coat of plot armor that only gave him cracked glasses, we would've had the singular Dawnservant once again. He may be smart and a machnist, but getting hit by such creature at such speed should incapacitate a person real good, if not killing them outright.

Dawntrail went full anime, I guess. That means, wave goodbye to your common sense, people.


There were at least 10 ways they could've played this cutscene out in a more sensible way while delivering the same idea, oh well...

Ah yes. The moment we're supposed to feel sympathy for his heroic act of rescuing a random animal.
Let's hope he'll never encounter an adventuring party doing FATEs I guess.

One of the cringest moments of the whole msq so far. We've gone full shounen now, and not the good kind either.

I can't shake the feeling this scene was originally planned for Wuk. But who's to say.

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Originally Posted by Duskleaf

I can't shake the feeling this scene was originally planned for Wuk. But who's to say.

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I had the same feeling. There was 2 points in the msq where I felt they brought change because of the feedback. This one and the "go alone to the outskirts", which I feel was supposed to be a "go with Wuk Lamat".

But this is a good example that the problem never has been Wuk Lamat, but the writing. If apply that writing to another character, it will be as bad. Once again, I fear that SE didn't get the right things from the complaints (but to be fair, the feedback from players focusing mostly on Wuk Lamat didn't help). I hope this is due to 7.1 being already too far in the production pipeline to massively change it, and not the answer to the feedback.

Wow! Thank you for pointing this out, I didn't even draw a link between Koana not being able to save his father and feeling eternally guilty for it and paying it forward to save this animal he'd only just bonded with. I think he doubly earned his moment and we'll see him push forth in protecting whatever he's able to, now.

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Originally Posted by glassflower

Wow! Thank you for pointing this out, I didn't even draw a link between Koana not being able to save his father and feeling eternally guilty for it and paying it forward to save this animal he'd only just bonded with. I think he doubly earned his moment and we'll see him push forth in protecting whatever he's able to, now.

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Ah yes, let's put someone with that mindset into a position of power to rule over two continents that comprise of around 1/3rd of the world's landmass.

Nothing could possibly go wrong.

#NotMyDawnservant

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Originally Posted by Yoshihara

Ah yes, let's put someone with that mindset into a position of power to rule over two continents that comprise of around 1/3rd of the world's landmass.

Nothing could possibly go wrong.

#NotMyDawnservant

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If you're expecting some sort of super interesting geopolitical intrigue out of Final Fantasy, that was your first mistake. I know that you know that consistently things have been tied up in a neat bow throughout the game. Why would they change that now?

And once again, you're just being obtuse. This post was not about whether or not he should be in the position of power, but about this supposed 'nonsense' of this particular story beat. When your logic is shown to be flawed, you go on to change your argument and say 'well it doesn't make sense that he's in a position of power!'. It also doesn't make sense that a literal dragon rules a country, either.

Were in absolute brainrot Shonen level of writing now people. I switched to JP and what Koana yells Ive heard from every anime protag ever in shonen animes that have surface level writing. Word for word.

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Originally Posted by Remember_The_Name

Your beloved father is about to get murdered by a madman who has clearly cheated the rules of dueling

If not for the thiccest coat of plot armor that only gave him cracked glasses, we would've had the singular Dawnservant once again. He may be smart and a machnist, but getting hit by such creature at such speed should incapacitate a person real good, if not killing them outright.

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Is he, though? Is anyone in Dawntrail?
I dare anyone to point out one moment where we actually SEE him being smart. Not solving things off-screen and hearing about it later, not suddenly turning up with a solution to a problem from somewhere, not characters saying "Koana is smart". Actually doing or saying something that shows us he is smart.

Or better yet, try to do the same with any supposedly smart character in Dawntrail.

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Originally Posted by chizLemons

Is he, though? Is anyone in Dawntrail?
I dare anyone to point out one moment where we actually SEE him being smart. Not solving things off-screen and hearing about it later, not suddenly turning up with a solution to a problem from somewhere, not characters saying "Koana is smart". Actually doing or saying something that shows us he is smart.

Or better yet, try to do the same with any supposedly smart character in Dawntrail.

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For 'anyone', I'll raise you Erenville. His emotional intelligence toward animals as well as knowing their habits and patterns is undeniably a mark of his intelligence that we see repeatedly throughout 7.0 and the patch. As for Koana, I can agree that we don't see his moments on screen, though I'd venture he's pretty intelligent just by, I dunno, the whole fact we're meant to give suspension of disbelief to the fact that he's able to use the abilities we see in the instance.

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Originally Posted by glassflower

If you're expecting some sort of super interesting geopolitical intrigue out of Final Fantasy

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Yes I do expect it. Stop being content with consuming sewage.

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Originally Posted by glassflower

I know that you know that consistently things have been tied up in a neat bow throughout the game. Why would they change that now?

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The flaws of Endwalker resolving everything without leaving room for further development is irrelevant to this case, at least in Endwalker's case it resolved them, and in a way that left enough people content.

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Originally Posted by glassflower

And once again, you're just being obtuse. This post was not about whether or not he should be in the position of power, but about this supposed 'nonsense' of this particular story beat. When your logic is shown to be flawed, you go on to change your argument and say 'well it doesn't make sense that he's in a position of power!'. It also doesn't make sense that a literal dragon rules a country, either.

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No, you're the one being incredibly obtuse and disingenuous in this case, to the point of trying to conflate the events of Endwalker and previous expansions, where it made sense for Vrtra's trials and tribulations that mirrored Heavensward, OVER the fact his size, species and demeanour was preventing him from being a public figurehead for his island nation fits the setting of FF14. In fact what you're doing is worse, you're trying to downplay and insult the integrity of acceptable writing, even if not stellar, to defend and or lower our standards to accept Dawntrail's writing.

What you stated is on the same level of saying "FF14's story has always been shit and will always be shit you're an idiot for ever thinking it was any good, Dawntrail's just more of the same!"
If you genuinely can't tell the difference, and not merely pretending then I'm not even sure why we're even having a conversation in the first place because I'd get more out of talking to Wuk Lamat.

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Originally Posted by glassflower

For 'anyone', I'll raise you Erenville. His emotional intelligence toward animals as well as knowing their habits and patterns is undeniably a mark of his intelligence that we see repeatedly throughout 7.0 and the patch. As for Koana, I can agree that we don't see his moments on screen, though I'd venture he's pretty intelligent just by, I dunno, the whole fact we're meant to give suspension of disbelief to the fact that he's able to use the abilities we see in the instance.

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Fair point about Erenville, I remember that one quest. Not in detail, but fair, it counts. Erenville was honestly one of the better written characters in the expansion. Most of my problems around him are actually how everyone else acts about him instead of his own actions. Though I do remember a few out of character moments, but anyway.

For Koana and everyone else though...no, I'm sorry, but I don't buy the "suspension of disbelief", or am I supposed to suspend disbelief about everyone and everything, whenever anyone acts weird or out of character? That'd be a lot.

I've been bothered ever since EW patches that any "smart" character just...never acted smart on screen, ever again. During the Zero arc, Y'sthola solves everything off-screen and then comes up with the solution at the start of the patch and makes us follow her. This happens over and over again through 7.0. Koana "protected" Tullyolal from the attack, but we don't ever see him doing anything. He is supposedly knowledgable and built a ton of stuff, but whenever he was on screen, he was either fanboying Sharlayan or his sister. She kept repeating over and over about how he was her smart brother...but I never see it.

And now, he is supposedly the HEAD OF REASON and a leader, and suddenly he is ready to throw his life away for one single animal he only got to know in the last few hours or so? How is that smart? Wouldn't a smart leader of a nation be able to put his emotions in check and think of a better way to deal with the situation?

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Originally Posted by chizLemons

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I dislike Y'shtola as well and audibly groaned when I found out that we would be having to spend a 'significant amount of time with her' this patch. I do think they should expand more on how these characters are actually solving these problems and don't like that they are off-screened, for whatever reason that might be. We also have to look at like, the interaction here though -- he's her older brother, and he studied in Sharlayan, a naive Wuk Lamat is going to praise her doting older brother as smart.

I can see where you're coming from in regards to him being able to reel in his emotion -- but it's not inconsistent with his character. He's originally presented as calm, detached and reasonable, but we learn very quickly that this is not all that there is to him. Underneath of that mask, he is hot-headed and passionate, especially when it comes to protecting others that he cares about. I think it's pretty disingenuous to be like 'he was going to throw his life away for some cows', even though, yeah, it was honestly a pretty dramatic act. But given that he likely blames himself for his father's death, plus his newfound duty as Vow... He's just connected with a culture that he knows is his own, but one he has an utter disconnect with. He realizes that these people treat these animals as beings part of their community instead of 'just animals', and realizes that, for the Hhetsarro, this is no different than if their beloved sister were harmed.

It's also worth noting that the... yes, relatively shonen-esque way that he speaks in Japanese does say something different than the English. Instead of saying, "I will say the hhetso!", Koana says "皆を護ってみせる……！", essentially, "I will save everyone!" Now, since I didn't read the entire thing for context, he could be referring to all hhetso, but it's also very possible he is talking about a collective everyone under his rule here. I think given that, it's easier to contextualize his feelings in that moment and see the full picture more clearly. And perhaps someone will take notice that Koana does do reckless things when he's faced with someone or something precious to him being harmed -- it could be another point of growth to learn to control that. We've seen G'raha do much the same in the past, albeit he had much more time as a ruler, perhaps he was similar when he began? I would love to see Koana and G'raha interact and see what growth they can lend each other.

I thought him bodyblocking for the buffalo and then whipping the sniper rifle out of nowhere was kinda narmy and fun, but the straightforwardness of the story up until that point sent mixed signals. Overall that moment alone wasn't bad. Main problem with the patch MSQ as a whole is that it is yet another 3 hours of visual novel with little to no tension up until the last 5 minutes with the imposter reveal and Wuk being cowed by the crowd into leaving rather than getting into an altercation in the middle of a foreign country.

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Originally Posted by glassflower

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No, you misunderstand. I don't dislike Y'shtola. I disliked how she was written in the EW patches forward. She used to be much more interesting. We actually saw her being intelligent and curious many times before...but that was never shown again since the main writer change. If things stay as they are, I can bet that we're going to give her the Mcguffin at the end of a patch and the next one she will show up with the answers already.

Wuk Lamat saying he is smart is NOT the problem. The problem is that the story doesn't give me a reason to BELIEVE her. I don't want characters telling me what I need to think about a character, I want to see their actions and reach that conclusion myself. They can talk about them being smart, sure. But if I don't see them being smart, it is bad writing, it is forced, and not believable. It tells me that the writer doesn't know how to make it true.

I understand that yes, this IS what they were GOING FOR. But can you truly say the execution was good? This is a problem all over Dawntrail. There's a lot of interesting themes and messages they were trying to convey, but the execution was clunky, and I'm not going to say it's good because I can see what they were TRYING to do. We used to have actual good writing, and that's important. It's not like people can't understand that's the message and why he wanted to protect the hetsarro. It's how he is doing it, which is not very well done, not in character, and bad shonen-esque.

And again, what he is actually saying in that scene isn't the problem, it's his actions. I play with JP audio, and he does say during that part that he will save them even if it costs him his life, wich is overly dramatic and unnecessarily reckless even for him. Specially because we are also supposed to believe he's been working as the Vow of Reason for a while, meaning he should know the importance of being alive and how he's got better ways to help than that.
I don't buy it. If it was supposed to be a point of growth of his recklessness, then the writing should be pointing out towards that, not immediately having someone congratulate him for risking his life for the rroneek and moving on.

I understand why someone said it looked like a Wuk Lamat moment, because it would be in character for her to do that, because she did a lot of reckless stuff like that throught 7.0...but I don't think she was replaced by Koana, I just think they didn't think it through before writing this scene, since it is supposed to be Koana's "I now accept and want to protect the culture I come from!" kinda thing. But it still feels out of character and juvenile.

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Originally Posted by chizLemons

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I've already conceded that I think they need to do better with showing intelligence, but it's been an issue for a while.

I think that the execution of this patch, in conjunction with Dawntrail proper, was pretty good, yes. I think, in an expansion that has been nothing but bombastic and over-the-top, why not just... play into it? Does it have to be slow-burn and cerebral to resonate? I am not taking 7.1 as a standalone patch, I'm taking it in conjunction with Dawntrail proper, what we learn about Koana there -- given his prior actions, jumping forth to protect Wuk Lamat... this is a callback to that. I struggle to believe the "he's been Vow for a while now", because there is no concrete timeline for the game. Am I then supposed to believe that they've been leaving Alexandria hanging for months while doing... nothing? I don't think so. I also didn't say that it was a point of growth, but that it could be one that they develop in further patches. These characters are presumably around to stay, I think they will be changing more as time goes on.

How would you have preferred he acted in that situation? What would have made it 'well-executed' to you?

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Originally Posted by Yoshihara

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What's not sewage to you BTW? Please name some examples.

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Originally Posted by Remember_The_Name

If not for the thiccest coat of plot armor that only gave him cracked glasses, we would've had the singular Dawnservant once again. He may be smart and a machnist, but getting hit by such creature at such speed should incapacitate a person real good, if not killing them outright.

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His gun diddn't even get bent from a hit that sent him flying lmao

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Originally Posted by Hypnotic13371337

His gun diddn't even get bent from a hit that sent him flying lmao

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Please understand, modeling a bent version of his gun would take artist time that could be used on Unnamed CS3 Project 4.

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Originally Posted by glassflower

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They try to show Wuk Lamat's growth for being "Vow for a while", and there's an effort of showing her being a little more responsible and a leader after the coronation. She also appears in this patch saying it's been a while, so some time passed there between 7.0 and 7.1 ingame.
Why would (the very little we see of) character development be limited to her? Characters shouldn't be paused like they don't exist offscreen, they should still be existing and doing stuff in the world. In fact, they love to make important stuff happen off-screen in Dawntrail, so what would make me believe Koana wouldn't be keeping his duties during that time?
And even during the coronation and 7.0, he was vow of reason for...a reason. He stayed behind instead of going to Solution 9 during the second because of that, even. I'd assume that the vow of reason, the guy constantly being called smart, that's been left behind to take care of people as a leader because someone had to be there, that even from the very beginning was supposedly trying to make his country better by building technological stuff from Sharlayan around, would at least briefly understand the importance of...being a leader, or searching for other solutions.

It doesn't have to be "all slow-burn and cerebral" to resonate, it never really was, but it must be written in a way that makes sense to the situation, to the character, and that gets the message across.

He could've protected the rroneek in any other way instead of just jumping in front of him yelling I WILL SAVE EVERYONE EVEN IF IT COSTS MY LIIIIIFE. He just didn't need to risk his life for it like that, because the only reason he was risking his life away like that was to add stakes to the scene.
If somehow it was important for him to throw his life away, then make the link between his father's death, as you were trying to claim there was, ACTUALLY emotional. Show me him bonding with a rroneek before it, getting attached to the culture, in a way that makes me feel that losing that rroneek, seeing them killed would mean something to him - we don't see that. We go around a 0/4 quest and when we're back, he's completely "I love hetsarro culture and will die for it". It feels out of nowhere.

By the way, remember how right at the beginning of 7.0, he only ever opened his mouth to speak of Sharlayan, then we learned his backstory and suddenly he only ever talked about Wuk Lamat? Or how Bakool Ja Ja changed personality out of nowhere because we learn of his backstory and now he's a good guy and even speaks differently? It's the same writing issue. There's no gradual development.
Gradual doesn't necessarily mean SLOW as in taking a long time, by the way, but we have to see the path from point A to B, not teleport to it after getting one single lore fact.

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Originally Posted by chizLemons

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I think regardless of if he didn't need to risk his life, it's in line with his character. It's not the first time he's acted like that. We do get screentime of him bonding with the rroneek, as well as this being his culture that he doesn't know anything of. Yes, it was short. I can't debate that. I bring you a counterpoint in that we don't need to see the rroneek specifically because this is something more than just 'the rroneek' for Koana. It is also immediately apparent that this is parallels with the fact that his parents did the same. It is in his blood to protect what he cares for fiercely with his life. I'm not saying someone needs to be crying tears for Koana jumping in front of the rroneek, but the scope is much larger than 'it's just some dumb animal that we didn't even see on screen for more than a few seconds'. It's not about the rroneek. This animal means something to his culture, and the Hhetsarro themselves are part of his kingdom. I also don't really think it's fair to say he's happy and loves them all of a sudden.

The exact text there is "I understand the significance of the hhetso. They nourish the Hhetsarro as they grow, and provide warmth and companionship in a harsh and unpredictable world." This links to Koana's own feelings toward the Pelu who saved him as well as Gulool Ja Ja. Again, it's symbolism at play here and what the rroneek represents for Koana that causes him to act in that way, and I can't really understand the viewpoint that it's out of character for him. I think for both Wuk Lamat and Koana, we are only at the beginning of their journey. That gradual development may yet happen. I don't think this was meant to be a 'look how much he's grown' moment by any means.

I agree that Bakool Ja Ja was not earned, by the way. It would have been better if he'd just stayed comically evil villain but of course we all just wanna hold hands and play on the playground with our friends.

The patch gave me more that I liked than disliked, I'll say. But having been able to read the writing on the wall that we were going to have koana interact with the hhestarro to resolve his childhood issues, it's wild that it was done and resolved in like. Two questlines. I think the biggest problem is still the dialogue. If Koana is struggling upright from having been injured and runs in front of a creature to save it, he doesn't need to Also shout "Even if it kills me, I will save the hhetso--" I'm watching him do it!

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Originally Posted by glassflower

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Did you really, actually feel, while watching the scene, the strong attachment he had to his culture during that very brief moment, that was strong enough to make him jump in front of a rroneek dramatically saying he'd save it even it costs his life? You're saying what they were TRYING to convey. Did they succeed? I don't think they did. The scene isn't good because of what they were trying to do, it's bad because of what they failed to. Without the proper buildup, the scene falls flat.

I can also repeat that I'd like to SEE him bonding and being attached to them and not telling us, but even the phrase you pointed out feels not at all justification for risking his life. I really can't see how it's linked to the Pelu. It could make sense, but it's not there... you can argue that Koana would forget reason and risk his life for what's important to him, but I didn't feel the attachment. Unless you are saying that he would defend absolutely anything he kinda likes, which I wouldn't say it's in character for him. It was more justifiable during 7.0 when he wanted to protect Wuk Lamat - it also felt a little bit out of nowhere, since he barely even spoke to her and then all of a sudden he just tells us all of his life story and how he always loved his little sister - but we knew they had a family bond and WL cared about him, so there was SOMETHING.

The way this part was written, we get there to solve a problem, and he was hesitant to go because of his past. We have lore dumped on us during a 0/4 quest away from him, that we go to learn about them to solve said problem. We come back, and Koana says he understand that culture and wants to protect it (in that short time!!!!!!!). Then, next moment, he is in front of a rroneek risking his life for it. We kill the crystal dinosaur, then, conveniently, someone talked about a couple 20 years ago that coincidentally happened to be his parents. He gains the trust of the people there because he was willing to risk his life for the rroneek, which is the game's writing telling us "look, he did the right thing!".
Now not only he loves his culture that he used to despise, but he's got no problems at all with his past and parents anymore. From that little time we spent there, his whole view and attitude on his entire past changed completely.

I don't think that's good writting at all for this game. I understand you enjoy it with your interpretation, I just hope I could convey some of the reasons why me and a lot of people don't. The game's narrative wasn't like that before Dawntrail. We didn't need to come up with symbolisms that weren't inteded, justifications and suspend disbelief for main character's actions to make sense.

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Originally Posted by chizLemons

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I mean, you're talking about the writing, and I'm also talking about the writing, because presumably I feel incredibly different than you did. I love Koana and find him one of the best written characters in the entirety of XIV, certainly one of the best in Dawntrail. I have explained ad nauseam here my reasons that are supported by the text itself why I think this was in character for him and a good choice. By the way, the hyperbole there makes your point make less sense -- I don't think Koana ever hated his culture. I think he was, understandably, upset and hurt by the fact that his parents left him behind as a child, and also obsessed with what he thought was 'progress'. But as he learns, technological advancements don't have to mean overlooking cultural ways. The black and white thinking, taking out these nuances seems like a skill issue, personally.

I liked the scene, a lot, actually. "Showing" does not have to be literal actions, it can be in the subtext surrounding a matter as well, which we get plenty of here, and I think you're overlooking that in order to get internet brownie points for fighting the 'cringe Dawntrail enjoyer' on the forums.

I think most people have nostalgia glasses on for this game and are averse to change, if you ask me. I never connected with any of the characters in previous iterations beyond feeling a little bit sorry for them, if we want to play that game. If we want to talk about something with no build up, how about the fact that we killed the gods that were the unique belief system in Eorzea.

We're deep in the anime arc now, please look forward to more of it.

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Originally Posted by glassflower

(...) and I think you're overlooking that in order to get internet brownie points for fighting the 'cringe Dawntrail enjoyer' on the forums.

I think most people have nostalgia glasses on for this game and are averse to change, if you ask me. I never connected with any of the characters in previous iterations beyond feeling a little bit sorry for them, if we want to play that game. If we want to talk about something with no build up, how about the fact that we killed the gods that were the unique belief system in Eorzea.

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...uh, a bit agressive there. I thought we were just having a normal internet discussion here. I didn't offend you in any way during any of my posts - or at least I didn't have any intention to. I guess I was wrong. And I wouldn't consider posting in the official forums getting internet points, if you ask me.

If you think there's any kind of subtext in Dawntrail's writing, if you think any of the characters are actually well written, and if you can connect to the one-dimensional Dawntrail characters more than you can anyone in Shadowbringers, then I can only suggest you to go back and play it again. Have a nice day!

PS: I assume you're talking about The Twelve? That was also current writing team's work. Confirmed to be a novice one, at that. No, I don't like it either.