Job identity, simplification and balance in general

If I remember correctly, wasn't there an interview or post by YoshiP where he mentioned changing the original plan to give jobs their unique identity back—or at least starting that work in 7.1 and beyond? I just can’t seem to grasp their balancing philosophy.

First, we got a post about the balance of Pictomancer and how it's clearly outperforming jobs like Black Mage (which is in a really sad state right now). Then YoshiP again promised adjustments, saying that other jobs would be balanced around Pictomancer so they'd be on a similar power level. But then the 7.1 patch dropped with the most minimal changes ever. Don't get me wrong, the Dark Knight changes were nice and needed, but aside from that, it was just a few minor tweaks. And what was that Dragoon change? The Nastrond adjustment was something no one asked for. If anything, we've been asking to remove the second stack from Life Surge to make it easier on the hands. Also, why remove Nastrond stacks if we could just ignore Mirage Dive altogether? Since the expansion changes, it's just a weak oGCD that no one cares about.

I really hate the approach they've taken for the past two expansions, which just seems to oversimplify things. I understand that healers will be happy with the Esuna change, but healers who didn’t use it before the patch aren’t going to start using it now. The Ninja change to TCJ also removes the need for planning. I don’t know what’s going on with the balancing team, but it’s like they don’t know what they’re doing half the time.

Sorry if this reads like a total rant, but I’m just getting really frustrated with their approach, which seems to cater to “beginner/sprout” players and avoids nerfing anything so players won’t be disappointed. It doesn’t work. I know there are 21 jobs now, and maybe it’s starting to overwhelm them—or at least that’s how it seems to me. But we need more frequent balancing patches between big updates. It baffles me that they had four months for 7.1, only for the balance patch to be the most minimal ever.

Just my thoughts. I’m curious if anyone else feels the same way.

You are just the latest person to realize that PR for this game is just a load of ****.

You can't seem to grasp their philosophy because they openly lie to you about what it is. Judge by actions, not words.

The primary gameplay design philosophy is to avoid backlash, rather than being built on a specific design vision. That's why jobs like PCT stay in power for extended periods of time. The devs seem to think that if a job is highly represented as a function of being overpowered, then offending that segment of the playerbase by issuing balancing nerfs will cause them to lose players. What they don't realize is that for that job to retain that power, players who don't like that aesthetic will lose interest in that role and eventually the game itself, which is a bigger loss in the long term.

They try to mollify players on underpowered jobs using a system of supposed 'upward buffs', but we know that these are generally are insufficient and don't result in balance before the end of the expansion cycle, at which point everything is reset back.

There's also the issue that the job design team is small and the people involved haven't changed over the years. So there's a lot of static thinking around job design and I suspect very little oversight to ensure that balance issues are rectified. Like what do you do if the main tank designer prefers WAR and the main caster designer prefers PCT, all on a five person team? You either like the top job's aesthetic for that role or you quit. I'm getting the feeling that the inertia in this system will eventually drive players out of the game.

Good luck with that.

I mean on paper it's easy to see, many MMORPGs go for moderate homogenization and unspecific fight design. FFXIV went the opposite way, high homogenization (this includes a loss/lack of identity and even a lack of personal expression) but in return highly specialized and specific raid fight design (the "ballet" we all know as the way FFXIV raids work compared to other MMOs).

The downside, this loss of job identity, is crippling though. It's expected, the fight designers need more and more space to use as the game ages, and as a result egg on job design more and more, which has to fit into a very specific and very narrow band of options that allow little enough differentiation, we can barely make the 5 roles feel different to each other. There's just no design space to meaningfully make jobs unique within their role. The most extreme outlies you'll see are things such as Dancer (the only job not based on "Static Rotation" as its core combat foundation) and Pictomancer. In theory also Viper but the job in itself is too broken and underdeveloped to showcase its newness in a positive way.

It depends on what you want, though. I mean it's a tradeoff, in return for loss of job identity we get this fight design, and even if the devs would be willing to inverse that decision, there's no telling whether we wouldn't end up in a situation where FFXIV is like other MMOs, and hence why not just play those. A minor upside of this is how easy it is to play job Y instead of job X, since they're all largely identical within a role and can largely use the same hotbar setup, casters excepted of course (the only role that shows strong intra-role differentiation, though sadly only in ability design not combat flow, it's still all static rotation, yes even Red Mage).

I've always given them the benefit of the doubt with what they say but at this point I have zero faith in this supposed complexity overhaul in 8.0. They've done nothing but double down on making every job as mindless as possible every chance they get. They'll probably prune the jobs even more but add something really inane like talent trees to give the illusion of depth. 5% more damage on my one attack button, oh boy.

Was the Nastrond change requested on the japanese side? Because I can't ever recall anyone complaining about nastrond ever.

The Ten Chi Jin also makes little sens. Not moving for 3s every 2min wasn't such a big deal. If the issue was "unfortunate movement input throwing off the burst", well a compromise could have been done like making Ten Chi Jin a very tiny leyline. This way it would retain its identity while adressing minor issue. I've heard people talk about drifting controller making them unable to play the job. That's to me a very poor reason because this would imply all caster should stop being caster since you can't play them on a drifting controller.

The BLM change makes sens with the addition of Flare Star. You can be for or against but it clearly attempts to fix a problem about the new BLM rotation which is extensively complained about. But Ten Chi Jin and more especially, Nastrond? Can't ever recall a single forum post about those. (especially Nastrond)

It took me a day of playing dragoon to realize something was off, and when I noticed it, it really broke me.
More than any other job, dragoon has been like, *the adhd job*, and it's genuinely some of the most fun I've had mastering any class in a video game. Taking away shatterspine dive was okay, because we got two weaves to make up for it, and we got to keep our gap closer. Losing dragon sight was alright... I guess... even if it was cool getting both eyes, and felt good handing out a 5% buff, it was definitely inconvenient.
But losing two weaves for more damage potency? I feel stronger, sure... but I'm having less fun...
This isn't the kind of thing I'd like to shrug off and get used to. I understand that they want the difficulty to come from the fights, but as someone who's already mastered dragoon movement, weaves and rotations over the past few years, this just comes off as a slap to the face, as if they don't trust us to know how to play our favorite jobs.
I can only PRAY that enough people talk about this to get them to do a full revert, damage potency and all, because frankly, I don't care if I'm doing less damage than a bard weaving peloton, dragoon is fun, and this game needs more of that, not less.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Good luck with that.

I mean on paper it's easy to see, many MMORPGs go for moderate homogenization and unspecific fight design. FFXIV went the opposite way, high homogenization (this includes a loss/lack of identity and even a lack of personal expression) but in return highly specialized and specific raid fight design (the "ballet" we all know as the way FFXIV raids work compared to other MMOs).

The downside, this loss of job identity, is crippling though. It's expected, the fight designers need more and more space to use as the game ages, and as a result egg on job design more and more, which has to fit into a very specific and very narrow band of options that allow little enough differentiation, we can barely make the 5 roles feel different to each other. There's just no design space to meaningfully make jobs unique within their role. The most extreme outlies you'll see are things such as Dancer (the only job not based on "Static Rotation" as its core combat foundation) and Pictomancer. In theory also Viper but the job in itself is too broken and underdeveloped to showcase its newness in a positive way.

It depends on what you want, though. I mean it's a tradeoff, in return for loss of job identity we get this fight design, and even if the devs would be willing to inverse that decision, there's no telling whether we wouldn't end up in a situation where FFXIV is like other MMOs, and hence why not just play those. A minor upside of this is how easy it is to play job Y instead of job X, since they're all largely identical within a role and can largely use the same hotbar setup, casters excepted of course (the only role that shows strong intra-role differentiation, though sadly only in ability design not combat flow, it's still all static rotation, yes even Red Mage).

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I completely agree but as a small note DNC does have a static rotation, goes through the same 1min and 2min bursts than other jobs do. It's a bard without the song layer to add variety.

I don't beleive they'll change fight design. This would invalidate all the fights that have come before. They're stuck in a corner and it's a stinky one.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

\Not moving for 3s every 2min wasn't such a big deal.

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I think this might have just been pre-emptive stuff. The fight designers asking for such instances to be removed from melee DPS. Next up with be Oblatio.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Was the Nastrond change requested on the japanese side?

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Yes, it's common for the JP player base to complain about the amount of weaves. I've seen suggestions of making Nastrond have 1 charge, removing Life Surge or Mirage Dive, further reducing the animation lock of jumps or even making them not move you anymore... it's not the majority but it happens often alongside other asks such as having a 1000 potency action or the job becoming selfish.

In fact, several posts over there are already praising some of the changes but others are concerned.

They have openly stated to have made adjustments while completely ignoring player feedback (e.g., Viper adjustments, which had a great many of people loudly asking Square not to do). Those changes still exist even as of 7.1. If they are willing to admit that, then imagine what they patronizingly think they know better than the playerbase regarding much older jobs?

While I'd like to think otherwise, there is a very big reason why whenever they announce job reworks, it fills those players with dread. They have a track record- and it's bad. However it seems that instead of analyzing why people tend to be more afraid of reworks rather than excited for them, they'll just start to not announce the rework beforehand until it is too late for the players to offer feedback. But I mean, it's not like they would listen to it anyway, right, given their history? I hope I'll be wrong.

They stated, that they wanted to use 7.... to clean up the classes, what will them look alike a lot. And want than to use 8.... to give the jobs more uniqueness again.

Mean, you have to wait around 3 years (and even than is it questionable, if they are able to manage it and how that will be looking).

I mean ,and they couldn't have either removed or reworked life surge.

Like I dunno, remove the +damage part (fold that into the main potency), then make it heal for 200%-300% of the damage dealt but only a single charge, so it's a big healing ability for when needed. In fact I'd take it as a trait replacement for Bloodbath for more unique identity!

*Laughs in Machinist*
But in all seriousness; they did state that in 7.x would be about bringing the jobs down and balancing them and 8.x would be about bringing the uniqueness and flavor back to the jobs. While its annoying, it does make sense to spend the next 3 years, planning and testing and working jobs and doing them all at once instead of trickling them down over patches. It is frustrating though, but MCH has been pretty much dumbed down since shadowbringers.

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Originally Posted by Alice9

They have openly stated to have made adjustments while completely ignoring player feedback (e.g., Viper adjustments, which had a great many of people loudly asking Square not to do). Those changes still exist even as of 7.1. If they are willing to admit that, then imagine what they patronizingly think they know better than the playerbase regarding much older jobs?

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Now without disagreeing at all that the current job designs are tepid, annoying and pointless, this particular point (ignoring player feedback) is genuinely not a bad thing. You do *not* want players to be listened to in MMORPGs, history has shown that. But also importantly, you want them to be heard. That's a big difference, and right now the devs aren't doing either.

Players in MMOs are ~okay at telling you if something is problematic or unproblematic. They are ~so/so at telling you why it is (usually it comes down to "it's underpowered", "it's overpowered" or "it's bad", which are all unusable input), and they're terrifying bad at explaining what to do instead.

But the first part still has to be heard. Player feedback is important in its relative quantities to find the hotspots and to okay changes afterwards. Just not at figuring out whether and even if yes, what to do when looking at changing things.

I do so not envy game devs. I work in business software development and I hate our customers already. But they're not gamers. >.>

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Originally Posted by Keichi

They stated, that they wanted to use 7.... to clean up the classes, what will them look alike a lot. And want than to use 8.... to give the jobs more uniqueness again.

Mean, you have to wait around 3 years (and even than is it questionable, if they are able to manage it and how that will be looking).

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They stated that they wanted to use 5 to clean up the healers. It's been almost 6 years and they are more homogenized than ever.

I wouldn't be surprised if they removed Holy's stun next with "since the case time is reduced you can weave a heal now"

Remember when Lilys actually had a purpose

Ah good times

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Originally Posted by Calysto

They stated that they wanted to use 5 to clean up the healers. It's been almost 6 years and they are more homogenized than ever.

I wouldn't be surprised if they removed Holy's stun next with "since the case time is reduced you can weave a heal now"

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At last for me are the healer separated enough.
White mage is a pure healer, who take care, after the dmg happens.
Scholar is barrier healer, who prefent dmg (is the healer, i like the most).
Sage is the most offensive one and the mixed child of the first 2. He allows you to adjust you, based on the co-healer (barrier focus, if no scholar is there, and pure healer, if a other barrier healer is there).
Astro is the only problem child, who is a buff support healer. But had bigger changes over time (didnt tested the current one, he was the one, where i had the biggest problem in DT).
They are similary, because the heal spells are the ones, everyone needs and make sense (Single heal, stronger heal spells with more cost, HoT, group healing, Esuna, and maybe barriers for tank buster/big aoe). That reduce the room for individuality.

But yeah, they stated to want to improve individuality to the next expansion. But personaly have i my doubts to. For me, are the classes differently enough.

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Originally Posted by Keichi

At last for me are the healer separated enough.
White mage is a pure healer, who take care, after the dmg happens.
Scholar is barrier healer, who prefent dmg (is the healer, i like the most).
Sage is the most offensive one and the mixed child of the first 2. He allows you to adjust you, based on the co-healer (barrier focus, if no scholar is there, and pure healer, if a other barrier healer is there).
Astro is the only problem child, who is a buff support healer. But had bigger changes over time (didnt tested the current one, he was the one, where i had the biggest problem in DT).
They are similary, because the heal spells are the ones, everyone needs and make sense (Single heal, stronger heal spells with more cost, HoT, group healing, Esuna, and maybe barriers for tank buster/big aoe). That reduce the room for individuality.

But yeah, they stated to want to improve individuality to the next expansion. But personaly have i my doubts to. For me, are the classes differently enough.

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This just reads like what the healers are “supposed to be” even when it makes no sense or is pointless

Like can anyone point to a mechanic in the last like 5 years where people went “damn I sure am glad I had a WHM on my team”

The 4 healers are basically “WHM”, “WHM but better in every way”, “shield WHM” and “shield WHM but better in every way”

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Originally Posted by Keichi

They stated, that they wanted to use 7.... to clean up the classes, what will them look alike a lot. And want than to use 8.... to give the jobs more uniqueness again.

Mean, you have to wait around 3 years (and even than is it questionable, if they are able to manage it and how that will be looking).

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Yoshi-P also said they were done with oversimplifying jobs, and yet here we are.
His words are absolutely worthless at this point. We'd all do well to fully prepare that the "new style of content" supposedly coming in 7.2 will just double down on everything we have come to loathe.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

This just reads like what the healers are “supposed to be” even when it makes no sense or is pointless

Like can anyone point to a mechanic in the last like 5 years where people went “damn I sure am glad I had a WHM on my team”

The 4 healers are basically “WHM”, “WHM but better in every way”, “shield WHM” and “shield WHM but better in every way”

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There is no direct content where you say "good that whe had that specific class with us". That would exclude other classes and would lead more to situation, like in WoW, where people with specific classes wasnt invited in group content anymore.

There are only sometimes situation, where it was good, to have a certain class with you. And that happens mostly, when players failing the mechanic ("good that whe had a paladin, who protected and healed the dd, after the other DD and healer died by the boss", "good that whe had a Red mage/summoner with us, who ressurected the healer or other party member, after the healer died/leaved the battle field").
The only difference should be, how the classes are played. But even that should be only small differences to each other (be it fast meele [monk, ninja, reaper -with his shroud-; Viper] vs agil meele [dragoon, Reaper -like drg for his mobility, and dislike reaper a bit, because his reach feels short-] vs slower, but stronger meele [samurai, who feels slower, has barely any mobility and feels to have a short reach], or differently Flair of caster [classic wizard in Form of blm, using summons as summoner or be a painter] or tank with differently focus [paladin, to protect other vs dark knight, who is doing dmg] or differently stil of healing [remove dmg or prefent dmg]).
But it should be never happens, that you need a specific class for the specific content (like, that you NEED specific the white mage, because the dmg is so fast, that only he could heal it away).

Do anyone fall for Yoshi PR talk?

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Originally Posted by ovIm

Yoshi-P also said they were done with oversimplifying jobs, and yet here we are.
His words are absolutely worthless at this point. We'd all do well to fully prepare that the "new style of content" supposedly coming in 7.2 will just double down on everything we have come to loathe.

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I think you should put less stock into statements taken out of context that are being twisted into a narrative by a third party news article. They haven't "oversimplified" any job recently. There is a big difference between the word "OVERsimplification" and the concept of streamlining. One by definition is taking things too far, one is just making things play smoother and better without being too far. Ability bloat piling up over several expansions has caused this game to feel like a mess to play, and we're at the point where streamlining the way jobs play has become necessary.

Yoshi-p knows how he wants his game to feel, and that's really all that matters. He has access to way more data than any subjective opinion posted on the internet, and a way more broad perspective over the subject than people who prefer it being so complicated that it is offputting for the average player. Let alone the below average player.

I also agree with Keichi in that every job in this game feels incredibly unique, and that's what matters. There is homogenization of utility(a good thing), and then homogenization of identity(a bad thing). We get a lot of homogenization of utility in this game, so every job is completely viable in every situation, but to imply that there is homogenization of identity is just laughable and disingenuous. It has never occurred, and likely will never occur. The jobs are too different for one, but the way they play and feel is all incredibly unique.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

I think you should put less stock into statements taken out of context that are being twisted into a narrative by a third party news article. They haven't "oversimplified" any job recently. There is a big difference between the word "OVERsimplification" and the concept of streamlining. One by definition is taking things too far, one is just making things play smoother and better without being too far. Ability bloat piling up over several expansions has caused this game to feel like a mess to play, and we're at the point where streamlining the way jobs play has become necessary.

Yoshi-p knows how he wants his game to feel, and that's really all that matters. He has access to way more data than any subjective opinion posted on the internet, and a way more broad perspective over the subject than people who prefer it being so complicated that it is offputting for the average player. Let alone the below average player.

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I think you should put less stock into trying to falsely understand statements and look the reality in the eye my guy.

Yoshi-P says they make jobs too simple, and that DT is not going in that direction. Then, they make jobs even simpler. You can call it "streamlining" all you want, does not erase what it is. Either Yoshi-P is lying or he is not directing the game anymore.
Or you can keep huffing your copium, you do you.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

I think you should put less stock into trying to falsely understand statements and look the reality in the eye my guy.

Yoshi-P says they make jobs too simple, and that DT is not going in that direction. Then, they make jobs even simpler. You can call it "streamlining" all you want, does not erase what it is. Either Yoshi-P is lying or he is not directing the game anymore.
Or you can keep huffing your copium, you do you.

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None of the jobs were made simpler in dawntrail though, they all got added complexity.

Why would I be huffing copium too, what a weird way of twisting my perspective lol. I love the direction they have been taking the game. I think they should streamline it even further, and they have with 7.1.

Technically, sandpaper actually streamlines things too. Still is sandpaper though.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

None of the jobs were made simpler in dawntrail though, they all got added complexity.

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Every single job was either made simpler in Dawntrail, or kept their status quo. Not a single job got any added complexity whatsoever. Some that weren't simplified in 7.0 were given the simplification pass in 7.05 or 7.1. There's also examples like Reaper which were actually just made more clunky by adding a new high potency GCD which doesn't generate gauge. I'm not even sure how that passed testing.

I don't know how you've somehow convinced yourself that removing mechanics and button presses = "streamlining". There are 14 DPS jobs in FFXIV, and all but 2 could be played, through an entire 10 minute fight, with a single button macro. The only reason they are not is because the game literally doesn't allow for actual cast sequence macros. This also applies to all the tanks as well. You really don't see that as an issue? Outside of movement the player isn't actually a required part of the gameplay equation. And even movement in 99% of fights is completely scripted.

If you give me your character's current GCD and pick literally any fight I could tell you to 100% accuracy which button you should be pressing at minute 4 second 23. That's atrocious design for a medium built on agency and interaction.

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Originally Posted by jonimated

That's atrocious design for a medium built on agency and interaction.

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Uh?????? Interact with the boss fight primarily. I don't understand this agency and "interaction" argument. That's what you want, not the devs or most of the players. FFXIV has always been about scripted optimized rotations. Always. You want it to play like WoW, so go play WoW. This game is about adhering to a rotation that makes sense and flows naturally. Always has been.

"ACSHUALLY SANDPAPER STREAMLINES THINGS TOO" rofl.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

I think you should put less stock into trying to falsely understand statements and look the reality in the eye my guy.

Yoshi-P says they make jobs too simple, and that DT is not going in that direction. Then, they make jobs even simpler. You can call it "streamlining" all you want, does not erase what it is. Either Yoshi-P is lying or he is not directing the game anymore.
Or you can keep huffing your copium, you do you.

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As much as I am unhappy with several job changes in DT, I think it's a bit unfair to jump the gun and start immediately accusing devs and suits of dishonesty. Yes, PR talk is mostly bull, however the devs are several patches ahead of us. These job changes have probably been decided a while ago. If YoshiP is truthful, and he only realised this recently, then we will have months until we see any noticeable change in job design. It's just easier to not have that hope / assume malice in the first place.

Regardless, even if the decisions have been made a while ago, they can still backtrack or address some things based on how much backlash they get. The more backlash, the more likely it'll be moved up in the priority list.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

That's what you want, not the devs or most of the players.

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I'm sure you have statistic to back up what you believe most players want?

Why are you acting like anyone who wants a little bit of complexity added back into job design immediately means they want it to be like WoW? There's a chasm of difference between what the community frequently touts as peak FFXIV job design era, and Wow during any era. And the fact that your go-to is WoW when people talk about complexity in FFXIV really says a lot about your knowledge of the game from past expansions and even now.

You're acting like player feedback has never changed anything before, and player backlash has never reverted changes before. Does it happen all the time? Certainly not, but it's non-zero. Scholar has Aetherflow because of player backlash at it's removal. Ninja has a single Raiju stack following Raiton because of player feedback at the beginning of Shadowbringers.

It's completely possible to love a thing, and also push for it to change/improve. The two aren't mutually exclusive and you really need to understand that. Your pretentious "love it or leave it" attitude does nothing, helps no one, and serves no purpose outside of your own inflated sense of misplaced self-righteousness. People wanting a thing to be better =/= disliking the thing.

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Originally Posted by Schan

As much as I am unhappy with several job changes in DT, I think it's a bit unfair to jump the gun and start immediately accusing devs and suits of dishonesty. Yes, PR talk is mostly bull, however the devs are several patches ahead of us. These job changes have probably been decided a while ago. If YoshiP is truthful, and he only realised this recently, then we will have months until we see any noticeable change in job design. It's just easier to not have that hope / assume malice in the first place.

Regardless, even if the decisions have been made a while ago, they can still backtrack or address some things based on how much backlash they get. The more backlash, the more likely it'll be moved up in the priority list.

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Usually I would agree with you, but consider this - Yoshi-P is the producer of this game, the one that is supposed to have the vision and who controls what goes. If the interview I linked earlier was the information he himself has provided as of june of this year, then that means this should have been the intention for longer. And even if it was not, 5 months is a lot of time, more than enough to adjust potencies and buff stack amount. They were able to adjust things from Viper because of 3 weeks worth of feedback from the players. So clearly, they can be a bit quicker with adjustments for jobs.

I've given the devs the benefit of the doubt for years now, and after a while, my own well of goodwill has run dry, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

Usually I would agree with you, but consider this - Yoshi-P is the producer of this game, the one that is supposed to have the vision and who controls what goes. If the interview I linked earlier was the information he himself has provided as of june of this year, then that means this should have been the intention for longer. And even if it was not, 5 months is a lot of time, more than enough to adjust potencies and buff stack amount. They were able to adjust things from Viper because of 3 weeks worth of feedback from the players. So clearly, they can be a bit quicker with adjustments for jobs.

I've given the devs the benefit of the doubt for years now, and after a while, my own well of goodwill has run dry, unfortunately.

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The interview specifically stated that the more major changes were coming in 7.2 and onwards. The changes to Viper and Monk (among other jobs) are just knee jerk reactions that shouldn't have happened, but they are also quick changes so it isn't fair to point at those and say, look, they didn't do what they claimed they would.

Changing jobs more drastically takes time, they have likely already started with the 7.2 changes, so, like it or not, you will have to wait.

You also have to remember they take feedback from many many places. What do the JP forums say? How about the other languages? Are there other sites that other languages use that are similar to Reddit? Youtube? How about feedback from the ingame systems? Just because the forums specifically do not like a certain change, doesn't change the fact they might have had a massive amount of feedback to the contrary.

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Originally Posted by jonimated

You're acting like player feedback has never changed anything before, and player backlash has never reverted changes before. Does it happen all the time? Certainly not, but it's non-zero. Scholar has Aetherflow because of player backlash at it's removal.

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Scholar never lost Aetherflow, they did lose Energy Drain though, which was quickly given back.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Scholar never lost Aetherflow, they did lose Energy Drain though, which was quickly given back.

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Right that's what it was. My bad.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

The interview specifically stated that the more major changes were coming in 7.2 and onwards. The changes to Viper and Monk (among other jobs) are just knee jerk reactions that shouldn't have happened, but they are also quick changes so it isn't fair to point at those and say, look, they didn't do what they claimed they would.

Changing jobs more drastically takes time, they have likely already started with the 7.2 changes, so, like it or not, you will have to wait.

You also have to remember they take feedback from many many places. What do the JP forums say? How about the other languages? Are there other sites that other languages use that are similar to Reddit? Youtube? How about feedback from the ingame systems? Just because the forums specifically do not like a certain change, doesn't change the fact they might have had a massive amount of feedback to the contrary.

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yeah wait a second, that is not what my post is about at all. We are not talking about possible reworks for classes, that is a different topic altogether which does take time, which I agree.

What I am saying is - if Yoshi-P tells media outlets, just weeks before DT release, that he and CS3 believe that job simplification went too far, and now half a year later CS3 are still simplifying jobs, then something does not add up.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

yeah wait a second, that is not what my post is about at all. We are not talking about possible reworks for classes, that is a different topic altogether which does take time, which I agree.

What I am saying is - if Yoshi-P tells media outlets, just weeks before DT release, that he and CS3 believe that job simplification went too far, and now half a year later CS3 are still simplifying jobs, then something does not add up.

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I remember in 5.2 they rework Ninja ninjitsu system, and it didn't require wasting 2.5 years to see meaningful changes.

We are in a point where we know nothing about next changes and the only thing we have is hope,
Which is not helping with 7.1 changes

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Scholar never lost Aetherflow, they did lose Energy Drain though, which was quickly given back.

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Better example:
Star cross has reach now.
Ice Paradox came back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ovIm

I've given the devs the benefit of the doubt for years now, and after a while, my own well of goodwill has run dry, unfortunately.

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I don't blame you. People have different levels of goodwill and SE keeps messing up. Quite a few people are running out of goodwill by now.

I will be here complaining about job design but I am also aware that:
A) their job isn't easy
B) they're the dev group most at risk of taking the brunt of the community's outrage.