The Raise Tax, and how to address it.

So Far: Not Good Idea lol! It happens!
Thinking on some of it, reconsidered my position. =]

Thread is essentially closed.

why do people find it an issue, i will never understand it cost a ton of mp for them, to use and it drops their dps alot its mostly only there as a last resort when both healers are dead... there are a bit more issues than dps having rez, the ressuractions isnt the proplem its the over healing on hp thats the proplem, and the only caster with that issue is rdm with vercure, not verraise.



want healer rez to matter more, make them have 0 weakness when used and rez a player at 70% hp instead of base amount

Ehh...

If I'm playing RDM or SMN, I'm already taking a DPS hit to raise someone. Even with using Dualcast or Swiftcast, that's a full GCD of no DPS, and if for whatever reason I can't use those abilities, then it's way longer cast that takes 4 GCDs and a ton of MP. Sure, it would be nice if those classes did more DPS, but too much of a raise tax will make players not want to use the raise ability at all. I dunno, I just don't see a problem with the way it currently is, but I've never cared about playing "top DPS" jobs. I just play to have fun and get the clear.

The idea came from a player I recall talking about how they would Prog as a RDM due to being able to raise so well in order to see more mechanics and thus making the RDM a Prog Mage, and then when they were ready to clear, they would switch to BLM or a strong DPS class in order to push the clear.

But if it's a bad idea, its a bad idea lol. :-P Such is life.

The raise tax does or doesn't exist, that is to say the raise tax is more of a suggestion than a fact. Many times Summoner and or Red Mage did more damage than other DPS jobs, including Black Mage. They currently are not the worst DPS in the game.
Anyway, I don't think this game is going to improve by taking away or lowering utility away from jobs so they could in theory (if they balanced damage perfectly) all do exactly the same DPS. All it does is take identity away from these jobs. Especially Red Mage, one of the core reasons this job is valued is for its raising ability.

Every jobs DPS is good right now but we're getting to hear how there's a problem with DPS. Why are people getting so fixated on the funny numbers site, with numbers driven by speed runners? And what has been demanding balance changes based on speed running got us? The 2 minute meta, abilities being designed for burst, less utility and choices, more homogenization. Maybe we should just not talk about dps being a problem unless a job is actually having trouble clearing content.

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Every jobs DPS is good right now but we're getting to hear how there's a problem with DPS. Why are people getting so fixated on the funny numbers site, with numbers driven by speed runners? And what has been demanding balance changes based on speed running got us? The 2 minute meta, abilities being designed for burst, less utility and choices, more homogenization. Maybe we should just not talk about dps being a problem unless a job is actually having trouble clearing content.

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That idea escaped me for the moment, thanks for the feedback <3
Definitely do not want to suggest optimizing fun out of the game as that is not my intention.

You don't need to look at the website that makes yoshida sad to notice that even with your keyboard literally on fire you're 6th in aggro coughing blood because your dps job has a garbage mathematical cap.

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Originally Posted by SalamanderIX

The raise tax does or doesn't exist, that is to say the raise tax is more of a suggestion than a fact. Many times Summoner and or Red Mage did more damage than other DPS jobs, including Black Mage. They currently are not the worst DPS in the game.
Anyway, I don't think this game is going to improve by taking away or lowering utility away from jobs so they could in theory (if they balanced damage perfectly) all do exactly the same DPS. All it does is take identity away from these jobs. Especially Red Mage, one of the core reasons this job is valued is for its raising ability.

Every jobs DPS is good right now but we're getting to hear how there's a problem with DPS. Why are people getting so fixated on the funny numbers site, with numbers driven by speed runners? And what has been demanding balance changes based on speed running got us? The 2 minute meta, abilities being designed for burst, less utility and choices, more homogenization. Maybe we should just not talk about dps being a problem unless a job is actually having trouble clearing content.

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Right now statistically the average melee or non raise caster is putting out just shy of enough damage to overcome the 1% the physical ranged bring

If that threshold gets crossed then you are actually losing DPS to bring a physical ranged; that’s a serious balance Concern because if the physical ranged don’t have the protection of bringing the 1% they are just fighting for a spot with classes that do 15% more damage than they do. That’s not an issue of homogenisation that’s an issue of when nobody is allowed to have any utility besides damage artificially taxing classes on their damage leads to them struggling to justify their existence

The raise casters are in the same position when a party doesn’t need a raise that can’t be covered by a healer but they are technically worse because you can just sub them out for a PCT and not even lose the 1%

If a class is getting excessively taxed for “utility” that doesn’t justify the tax that should be fixed even if other party members can “compensate” for their lower DPS so they can still clear

I think the very existence of the Raise tax is stupid. You're already missing out on damage by virtue of missing some GCDs. If Mana management actually mattered, that would also be a limiting factor. Right now, it is only limiting if you are having to Raise a lot. Jobs with lots of utility being punished for said utility with less damage output just has the consequence that they are basically prog-only job, especially Red Mage. Once you learn the fight and don't need the Rez, you are better off with something like a Pictomancer every time.

The raise tax indeed makes no sense.
Back in Pandemonium we had too many body check, TOP also straight up caused a wipe if someone got KO'd
In no world the res tax is of any value, even if you have your 2 healers KO, their heals would be nerfed for a little while.

The KO'd player should be the one paying the tax, not the casters.
Make the KO debuff last longer if a caster ressed or limit the number of res.

I wish ranged physical had a raise to justify the tax.

Fun fact, did you know that DNC and MCH are a (small) loss for party -wide damage in the current patch on average...even accounting for the 1% buff they bring by existing?

Bard is very very slightly ahead of bringing a melee, Black Mage, Or Pictomancer.

The damage is so little of a difference that it doesn't matter, ultimately, and no content has a damage check worth noting... But even so Physical Range jobs are in a really terrible state.

Same story than it has been since ShB. In ShB BRD was behind by over 10% for the first tier. In EW and DT it's MCH with 12-14%.

What is the reason behind this repeating itself until they rebuff them for x.1 and the second tier later as they have done every time? idk

Often time in these kind of topic I think people just miss the point. And it's probably due to the min/max mindset that people try come up with all different angle and logic to justify the "I should be able to do more damage!!", which is what it always come down to. And it's not just the raise tax, but the range tax, the melee tax .etc


For me it's simple if you just view it as a point buy system. Every job has the same point in the pool, and it doesn't matter what you put the point, a point more put into one area (raise, mobility) is a point less you can point less you can put in another area (DPS). It doesn't matter you think that point is well spent or not, it doesn't change the fact it's a point that spent there and you can't spent at other places. It's like if you build a DnD Paladin and decide to put a few points in INT since you don't want to be stupid, but a smart PLD naturally gonna has less STR or CHR and that fact won't change no matter how much you want to argue a Paladin should not have low CHR.

For RDM specifically, I think that Verraise is constricting its design space both as a specialist support job, and as a DPS job. I think I would rather they replace Verraise with with something that is more of a general use support GCD like Vermedica or Verstoneskin or something, and then buff its damage a little more. I'm a little unsure how healthy it is for RDM's identity in the long term to be pigeonholed as 'rezmage.'

As for SMN, I think it has some grounds to keep its rez, and it's only because it can summon Phoenix, the rebirth primal. I think they could rework Phoenix to be a cooldown that is separate from its damage rotation, and make rez available when it's summoned. Summon Phoenix could be like this turbocharged Phoenix Down ability, as well as setting the precedent that summons have meaning.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

For RDM specifically, I think that Verraise is constricting its design space both as a specialist support job, and as a DPS job. I think I would rather they replace Verraise with with something that is more of a general use support GCD like Vermedica or Verstoneskin or something, and then buff its damage a little more. I'm a little unsure how healthy it is for RDM's identity in the long term to be pigeonholed as 'rezmage.'

As for SMN, I think it has some grounds to keep its rez, and it's only because it can summon Phoenix, the rebirth primal. I think they could rework Phoenix to be a cooldown that is separate from its damage rotation, and make rez available when it's summoned. Summon Phoenix could be like this turbocharged Phoenix Down ability, as well as setting the precedent that summons have meaning.

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I doubt that SE gives a damn about "precedence". where is the "precedence" for War having an AOE heal?

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

I doubt that SE gives a damn about "precedence". where is the "precedence" for War having an AOE heal?

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Gonna be a broken record about PVP jobs again, but PVP SMN has a choice of two limit breaks, Summon Bahamut, and Summon Phoenix, and they have different uses with Bahamut being a damage summon, and Phoenix being more of a support summon. Even the the more on demand actions which are based on the the primal actions that PVE SMN preforms have different effects, and gameplay considerations. So the idea of having a choice between summons, and those choices mattering for SMN does seem to be on their radar, but why this isn't being explored in PVE is another story. These ideas are in the game right now.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Often time in these kind of topic I think people just miss the point. And it's probably due to the min/max mindset that people try come up with all different angle and logic to justify the "I should be able to do more damage!!", which is what it always come down to. And it's not just the raise tax, but the range tax, the melee tax .etc


For me it's simple if you just view it as a point buy system. Every job has the same point in the pool, and it doesn't matter what you put the point, a point more put into one area (raise, mobility) is a point less you can point less you can put in another area (DPS). It doesn't matter you think that point is well spent or not, it doesn't change the fact it's a point that spent there and you can't spent at other places. It's like if you build a DnD Paladin and decide to put a few points in INT since you don't want to be stupid, but a smart PLD naturally gonna has less STR or CHR and that fact won't change no matter how much you want to argue a Paladin should not have low CHR.

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This whole “everyone gets points but you don’t have to agree with if they are spent fairly” argument implies that everyone’s “utility” is getting taxed as number of points. If phys ranged have to suffer 10-15% as a damage penalty for their ranged why is VPR not taxed the same, hell why is ranged as a concept even taxed when the melees can drop dozens of GCD’s and still out DPS the ranged. Same as the tanks vs healers. What did the healers “buy” with their 40% less damage than the tanks when the tanks can heal with no penalty

This isn’t hush people unhappy with the allocation of points for their class this is a mathematical imbalance that isn’t remotely justified because it’s intentional balance decisions they force on the classes while providing no justification

My idea is to make Resurrection a caster's role ability. Lore doesn't matter at all.

Resurrection
Lv50 Instant GCD
Recast: 120 seconds

This will equalize all casters in term of raise tax. Job mechanics and playstyles will be what separate caster jobs, just like all other roles. The current 3k DPS difference between rdm/smn and blm/pct is just too much. This change addresses the current disparity in DPS contributions, fostering a more balanced environment where players can choose their preferred caster without feeling pressured to switch jobs post-progression.

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Originally Posted by Ayden

My idea is to make Resurrection a caster's role ability. Lore doesn't matter at all.

Resurrection
Lv50 Instant GCD
Recast: 120 seconds

This will equalize all casters in term of raise tax. Job mechanics and playstyles will be what separate caster jobs, just like all other roles. The current 3k DPS difference between rdm/smn and blm/pct is just too much. This change addresses the current disparity in DPS contributions, fostering a more balanced environment where players can choose their preferred caster without feeling pressured to switch jobs post-progression.

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That’s something I don’t want because when I play BLM or PCT I don’t want to be the backup support. I already hate how this game forces all healers to be casters and all tanks to be melee I don’t want all 8 casters to be raisers. Let some of the casters just be raw damage dealers and give them the damage to reflect that. You shouldn’t be forced to be a melee just to do good damage in this game

RDM and SMN are excessively taxed for their raise but raise provides an interesting point of difference amongst the casters. What needs to go is the soft enforced 2/1/1 design

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

This whole “everyone gets points but you don’t have to agree with if they are spent fairly” argument implies that everyone’s “utility” is getting taxed as number of points. If phys ranged have to suffer 10-15% as a damage penalty for their ranged why is VPR not taxed the same, hell why is ranged as a concept even taxed when the melees can drop dozens of GCD’s and still out DPS the ranged. Same as the tanks vs healers. What did the healers “buy” with their 40% less damage than the tanks when the tanks can heal with no penalty

This isn’t hush people unhappy with the allocation of points for their class this is a mathematical imbalance that isn’t remotely justified because it’s intentional balance decisions they force on the classes while providing no justification

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Because you missed about half the point I was making.

You're talking as if every point is equal. A mage who has 20 pts in STR doesn't mean they gonna swing their stave as hard as a war who has 20 pts in STR.

You can argue that it's dumb to put 20 pts in STR on a mage, I'm just saying you're not gonna get a refund on those points no matter how dump you think it is.

The point is, to have Raise on their bar, a certain number of points was invested there, and those points had to come from somewhere else. It doesn't matter how much you want to argue the merit of verraise, even if going as far as you never gonna use it, you still not gonna get a refund on those point unless the ability is actually removed from the job.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Because you missed about half the point I was making.

You're talking as if every point is equal. A mage who has 20 pts in STR doesn't mean they gonna swing their stave as hard as a war who has 20 pts in STR.

You can argue that it's dumb to put 20 pts in STR on a mage, I'm just saying you're not gonna get a refund on those points no matter how dump you think it is.

The point is, to have Raise on their bar, a certain number of points was invested there, and those points had to come from somewhere else. It doesn't matter how much you want to argue the merit of verraise, even if going as far as you never gonna use it, you still not gonna get a refund on those point unless the ability is actually removed from the job.

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If your point is “equal distribution of points leads to unequal results” then you are basically just advocating for built in mathematical advantage for no other reason than the devs like the advantaged jobs

For example why is there no “tax” for the “points” VPR “invested” in its incredible ranged utility, why is there no tax for the “points” tanks “invest” in healing, why are healers “taxed” on damage for “points” they never invested in the first place

UF is the highest potency attack in the entire toolkit outside of the last three steps of Reawaken. That should help you understand the 'why' around its prioritization a bit better.

I take it that this is your new strategy from distracting the focus from PCT, which is effectively the new SMN job stone upgrade complete with:

• no downtime tax due to motifs
• 50% sprint uptime due to one of the strongest mobility tools in the game
• raidwide shielding and healing in excess of some physical ranged jobs
• non-existent MP management
• minimal/instant cast times on standard spells

They probably could have classified it as a physical ranged job given the lack of MP dependence/cast time dependance, but for the fact that it's privileged by being Yoshi-p's new favorite job. And we know now that the dev team was afraid of nerfing PCT despite knowing that it is overpowered, because it's popular.

I guess we'll have to wait for after FRU for PCT's motif system to be fixed into something more sensible. Or perhaps the more likely result is they'll be forced to swing to the other extreme for the Welterweight division after the backlash really ramps up during FRU.

I’ve already told you I’m fine with PCT nerfs I’m simply opposed to changing how the motif system works as a reactive balance decision because of FRU. This has nothing to do with if I think PCT does too much damage or not, fact is I simply like the class more than I care about ultimate only balance decisions. I have zero opposition to nerfing PCT’s raw damage in full uptime fights and I have even suggested multiple ways you could nerf PCT

You are the one who seems to think that VPR is giga brained because it has high APM despite having the rotational complexity of a SMN. UF being high priority to stick in burst doesn’t change the fact that it can be used as an incredibly powerful movement tool with only minor loss in DPS via not having it in the burst phase. Going by raven’s point system analogy it should be taxed for that (and before you say anything I’d also say smudge is strong enough to warrant taxes on its DPS if we played along with this system), I’m simply saying that system is flawed as a representative concept because it generates mathematical dominance for no other reason than being a favourite job (a problem you yourself have with PCT)

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

why is there no tax for the “points” tanks “invest” in healing, why are healers “taxed” on damage for “points” they never invested in the first place

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Are we gonna pretend that tank is doing as much healing as healer can? Because that sound like what you're doing. Just because both tank and healer can heal, doesn't mean their heal is equal. Again, even if a PLD dumb all their point into CHR and WIS, they still won't out heal a Cleric or Priest, just like vice versa you can put all the STR or CON, they won't out DPS or out tank a PLD. And if you think I'm saying the "build" or point distribution in FF14 is good or optimal, you're missing the point.

They said third time is the charm so I'll try to make it clear again, but if you miss it yet again I'll just give up.

- First, I'm NOT the one who using the word "tax", you do. If anything, part of what I'm saying is I'm arguing "against" the use of such concept as tax because I think it misconstrue the issue.

- Second, if you want use healer as example, one can say too many point is being dump into healing aspect, more than neccessary - hence some would argue the healing kit is overbloat. One can say FF14 healers are built like a Holy Priest, whether a Battle Cleric (less heal, more DPS) seems to be what people are advocating for. And that would be a correct way to look at the issue. Trying compare Healer to Tank is just nonsense masquerading as a tax. If the healers want DPS, if they are given more DPS, it should come at the reduction in healing. I would really hate it if one day if they decide to give healers more DPS while keeping the same overbloat healing kit because that seems to be a good way to make the job even more braindead than it is now.

- And that's my point with issue like Verraise. It's not a tax, it's an investment. You can make a point that it is a BAD investment, you can argue that the point toward that investment should be used some place else (like DPS). I'm simply saying you can not use the excuse "verraise bad" to demand a refund on its investment yet still keep the benefit of that investment. That's called double dipping. But if someone say Verraise should be abolished in favor of more DPS for Redmage, at least that would be an objectively fair argument. However, at that point you also have to consider should that be a allow from an RP/Lore respective. It would be like trying to turn a goblin into a Paladin.

Melee jobs have always been about mechanical execution, in a game that has always been entirely focused on mechanical execution within fixed encounters. You're not typing a dissertation. It's like learning to play the piano. It really doesn't matter if you read the rotation in a book and understand the theory behind the buttons. You can either play or you can't.

The primary PCT issue is motifs and the lack of a downtime tax. That's what makes it broken in fights with intermissions. PCT's current level of dominance, where it has pretty much 100% usage rate in the caster slot for speedruns, is nothing compared to what we would see in a fight with actual downtime. You will see other casters get locked out from the caster slot in FRU. People have been seeing the writing on the wall for a very long time now.

You could rebalance Smudge so that it has less sprint uptime and so that it's recast is more on par with Aetherial Shift if you like. You could give the job some actual casts on its non-motif spells as well as some MP management, while toning back all the on demand instant casts used for free movement. You could rein back Tempera Coat/Grassa and remove the healing from Star Prism if you felt like it. And you know what, it still would be all for naught if you refused to just rebalance muses by making them usable only in combat with a target present.

To achieve the balance approach that you're suggesting currently, PCT would likely have to be tuned even lower than Raise Casters and Physical Ranged currently are on full uptime fights. And my guess is, that's the solution that they will opt for after the backlash on FRU. Honestly, just balance muses and cap the DH/Crit variance on PCT's burst. It's so much more sensible, and you'll actually get to see some variety in what casters people are playing again.

No I understand your point I’m saying it’s a pointless analogy because “investment” vs tax really doesn’t mean anything different in the context being spoken of. If verraise was worth say 3 “points” of investment and it gets taxed 5 “points” on damage whether you say that’s an “inefficient investment” or a “tax” it doesn’t change the fact that the investment is not equivalent to the same outcome. And since we can’t control the “investment” being made it just leads to mathemcial dominance by the classes that allocate points “efficiently”. Using the healer example the tanks don’t heal more than the healers But there HPS is more efficient, then they have very powerful defensives, if healers lower damage is caused by “over investment” in healing CD’s they don’t need that’s no different than just saying healers are being taxed

So the analogy is rather pointless because so called inefficient investment is not being adequately compensated so saying “verraise is an investment” is a rather pointless statement that doesn’t get to the heart of the issue

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Melee jobs have always been about mechanical execution, in a game that has always been entirely focused on mechanical execution within fixed encounters. You're not typing a dissertation. It's like learning to play the piano. It really doesn't matter if you read the rotation in a book and understand the theory behind the buttons. You can either play or you can't.

The primary PCT issue is motifs and the lack of a downtime tax. That's what makes it broken in fights with intermissions. PCT's current level of dominance, where it has pretty much 100% usage rate in the caster slot for speedruns, is nothing compared to what we would see in a fight with actual downtime. You will see other casters get locked out from the caster slot in FRU. People have been seeing the writing on the wall for a very long time now.

You could rebalance Smudge so that it has less sprint uptime and so that it's recast is more on par with Aetherial Shift if you like. You could give the job some actual casts on its non-motif spells as well as some MP management, while toning back all the on demand instant casts used for free movement. You could rein back Tempera Coat/Grassa and remove the healing from Star Prism if you felt like it. And you know what, it still would be all for naught if you refused to just rebalance muses by making them usable only in combat with a target present.

To achieve the balance approach that you're suggesting currently, PCT would likely have to be tuned even lower than Raise Casters and Physical Ranged currently are on full uptime fights. And my guess is, that's the solution that they will opt for after the backlash on FRU. Honestly, just balance muses and cap the DH/Crit variance on PCT's burst. It's so much more sensible, and you'll actually get to see some variety in what casters people are playing again.

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Like I said I don’t have a problem nerfing PCT but not its motif design. There are multiple ways you can also tax its downtime without just straight changing its muses

-applying silence during downtime (also affects the healers ability to heal during downtime)
-applying massive slow to cast times (would also affect healers ability to raise or use skills like soulsow)
-apply benefits for constant movement like damage ups

Like I said I don’t mind nerfing PCT but FRU’s balance is not worth the entire class design in my mind. Imagine say farming Bozja for mettle and dealing with only being able to use motifs in uptime during combat, the class would feel like a lead shoed nightmare. Is that less important than FRU

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Often time in these kind of topic I think people just miss the point. And it's probably due to the min/max mindset that people try come up with all different angle and logic to justify the "I should be able to do more damage!!", which is what it always come down to. And it's not just the raise tax, but the range tax, the melee tax .etc

For me it's simple if you just view it as a point buy system. Every job has the same point in the pool, and it doesn't matter what you put the point, a point more put into one area (raise, mobility) is a point less you can point less you can put in another area (DPS). It doesn't matter you think that point is well spent or not, it doesn't change the fact it's a point that spent there and you can't spent at other places. It's like if you build a DnD Paladin and decide to put a few points in INT since you don't want to be stupid, but a smart PLD naturally gonna has less STR or CHR and that fact won't change no matter how much you want to argue a Paladin should not have low CHR.

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Alright then tell me, if this is all about points, why does SMN do output as much damage as ranged physical jobs (and more than MCH even), when it puts point into mobility, uptime AND raise AND heavy party healing? Meanwhile on BRD or MCH, I only have points in uptime. Not in raising, not in healing, and certainly not in mobility. By that logic SMN should be doing 30% less damage than every ranged physical job. I took SMN as the most extreme example but it also works for RDM which offers way better support than rphys, but I could also take DNC that has actual support compared to the pitiful options we have on BRD/MCH, and yet it does the same party damage contribution.

Similarly on the melee's end, why does MNK output the same damage than other melees in spite of investing points into Mantra?

The reality is that there is no rational rule behind this like points and investment into feats. It's just arbitrary.