My problem with FF 14

1. Holiday events are the most boring events I seen in FF14. We wait a whole year just to get a 10min quest line... really???? In other mmos you get content that last for weeks and get more than 1 reward.. FF14 is the weakest

2. Leveling has gotten extremely boring in FF14.. All you do is Read for 2 hours and get to do a dungeon that last for 15 mins and back to reading for another 2+ hours.. Zones feel bland and boring. mobs dont pull a threat..

3. Dungeons, 2 packs, 1 boss and repeat.. how is this fun? Its the same thing over and over... WoW dungeons are fun because anything can happen and getting to the boss can be challenging



Fix those issues

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miguel85NYC

1. Holiday events are the most boring events I seen in FF14.

---

I agree and I think the reason is because they are yet more story in this story-driven game, when they could just be more gameplay-oriented. The worst part is the events used to be better sometimes.

The best ones I remember involved a haunted house with tricks you had to work together to overcome and find the password and there was a higher prospect of failure than any normal dungeon content in the game. The same happened the first time they released the Valentione's two-person dungeon, where again, you could actually fail it and feel salty toward your partner, and in that moment, know that you aren't a match. :p For the Rising, we once did a recreation of the 1.0 calamity which was a duty. Before Bard music, we had an early preview of that system in one of the events.

Yet often they are an afterthought and sometimes they don't let us re-run these older, successful versions of the event and they don't make any new versions of them anymore really. Just some little sob story. The sob stories are alright, it's just, we get plenty of them from all the other quests in the game and the events could just be, events, instead of stories. "The event is now, want to go hunt some eggs?" We don't need a story attached to that, and I dread bothering with the little sob story when I've got other stuff to do in the game.

But here is the thing. It's a minor issue. The events aren't running most of the time and it is only a frustration for the few hours I'm doing it. So this is really a minor issue to me.

Quote:

---

2. Leveling has gotten extremely boring in FF14.. All you do is Read for 2 hours and get to do a dungeon that last for 15 mins and back to reading for another 2+ hours..

---

I don't really agree with this. Leveling is something I look forward to each expansion. I get to play all the jobs again, being put into random dungeons I've not done for ages, with random players of varying skill levels, juggling rotations and mechanics I'm not used to. Even leveling through FATEs can be fun honestly, especially if it's in a party where you're chilling talking to them.

Quote:

---

Zones feel bland and boring. mobs dont pull a threat..

---

I think the zones look amazing. I agree that mobs could be more threatening, but they only made them threatening in Eureka (pre-Echo btw) because it was trying to recreate the feel of traditional MMO design and they didn't want the modern design outside it to be like that. So it is how it is. They don't want to go back to the "open world mobs are threatening" thing.

Quote:

---

3. Dungeons, 2 packs, 1 boss and repeat.. how is this fun?

---

Well it's consistent. It can be fun while still using that formula. It's just making the trash mobs have interesting mechanics like they have in older dungeons, and making the bosses fun, really.

Quote:

---

Its the same thing over and over... WoW dungeons are fun because anything can happen and getting to the boss can be challenging

---

The difference is that WoW is not realistically getting new players because of its reputation of being too neckbeardy to get into (install 4347858954 required addons and grind for eternity just to keep up). Their focus is on returners that understand the game.

In contrast, FFXIV gets new players all the time and SE's aim is to make sure a new player, who has no idea what they are doing, can get through the dungeon and progress the story, since many people literally just play for the story then quit.

I liked the zones this expansion, honestly. But yes, they are devoid of all threat which sucks... Flying also ruins the exploration element... I understand the convenience of flying for side content like gathering, FATEs, and Hunts... But that isn't going to stop me from disliking it.

Holiday events need to be a lot more substantive, even if it is just padding it out more.

Dungeons... Honestly the community are largely in part the reason for this.

1. Holiday events used to take longer, usually due to a token system that you had to do special fates or some sort of repeatable quests to get. There was even a Moonfire Fair event where you had to craft fish and chips to turn in with actual crafting. However, people complained that it took to long, and like most times when CB3 listens, the cursed monkey paw's finger curled and we got what we got.

2. Do you mean leveling, or MSQ? There's a difference. As far as zones go, you're nuts. DTs zones have been the most interesting geographically since... ever, really. Totally agree on the lack of danger in the open world, though. Caves and stuff should be no fly zones. They got the tech. It's in the game now. They could have at least a little area in each zone be a bit spicy. Would have to have a reason to go there. Maybe special token drops to buy stuff with or something.

3. Given what they give, I don't want dungeons to be super difficult. DT dungeons are rightly where they need to be. Mildly engaging. What they need to do is have a Eureka/Bozja area right at the start at the endgame for an expansion and added to every patch That way folks that have time to no life the game have something to chew on (no shade, I used to play that way, back in the day)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RaideDuku

1. Holiday events used to take longer, usually due to a token system that you had to do special fates or some sort of repeatable quests to get. There was even a Moonfire Fair event where you had to craft fish and chips to turn in with actual crafting. However, people complained that it took to long, and like most times when CB3 listens, the cursed monkey paw's finger curled and we got what we got.

2. Do you mean leveling, or MSQ? There's a difference. As far as zones go, you're nuts. DTs zones have been the most interesting geographically since... ever, really. Totally agree on the lack of danger in the open world, though. Caves and stuff should be no fly zones. They got the tech. It's in the game now. They could have at least a little area in each zone be a bit spicy. Would have to have a reason to go there. Maybe special token drops to buy stuff with or something.

3. Given what they give, I don't want dungeons to be super difficult. DT dungeons are rightly where they need to be. Mildly engaging. What they need to do is have a Eureka/Bozja area right at the start at the endgame for an expansion and added to every patch That way folks that have time to no life the game have something to chew on (no shade, I used to play that way, back in the day)

---

The DT zones are pretty and well proportioned unlike some of the giant bowl zones from HW/SB/ShB but there is still nothing to do in them

There is like a rotation of 10 fates, maybe a world boss and like 2 of those 2 fates are a chain. Then there is nodes for crafting that work exactly the same as they always have

Then there is………..nothing

Why do we even have an open world if it’s nothing but a pretty backdrop for an MSQ that barely uses a 10th of it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

There is like a rotation of 10 fates, maybe a world boss and like 2 of those 2 fates are a chain. Then there is nodes for crafting that work exactly the same as they always have

Then there is………..nothing

---

They added hunts, treasure maps and sightseeing logs for this reason in ARR and continued this in expansions. And they are used for hunts and maps regularly.

Quote:

---

Why do we even have an open world if it’s nothing but a pretty backdrop for an MSQ that barely uses a 10th of it

---

Sidequests usually cover the rest of the map.

I haven't really played any other MMOs to compare FF14 Holiday events to, but in other live service games like gacha games they have huge events that would blow anything FF14 has out of the water. FF14 does that occasionally but wish it would do it more often. Maybe much more decorations and outfits/weapon transmog to buy with exclusive tomestones sort of like moogle events but more often.

I'll also agree leveling is very boring up until you get to the field operations. Not sure how great Eureka is for leveling, but Bozja is a blast, even having maxed multiple jobs. Before you take a level 71 job into it it's just spamming dungeons and roulettes which is pretty boring. Challenge logs until level 30, dungeon spam until 71, then Bozja until around 90, then Aglaia until like 95. Endwalker's missing field operation is sorely felt, can't wait until Dawntrail's so leveling jobs from 91 to 110 next expansion is way less excruciating and dare I say fun again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miguel85NYC

1. Holiday events are the most boring events I seen in FF14. We wait a whole year just to get a 10min quest line... really???? In other mmos you get content that last for weeks and get more than 1 reward.. FF14 is the weakest

2. Leveling has gotten extremely boring in FF14.. All you do is Read for 2 hours and get to do a dungeon that last for 15 mins and back to reading for another 2+ hours.. Zones feel bland and boring. mobs dont pull a threat..

3. Dungeons, 2 packs, 1 boss and repeat.. how is this fun? Its the same thing over and over... WoW dungeons are fun because anything can happen and getting to the boss can be challenging



Fix those issues

---

While I agree they're over too fast, some of the holiday events in other games go to far to the opposite extreme and end up very grindy with a lot of RNG involved. They also don't always release new rewards so when you've already gotten everything, there's no reason to do them the following year. MMORPGs in general need to find a better middle ground for seasonal events.

You're not talking about leveling. You're talking about the MSQ. There's a lot of different content to choose from when it comes to leveling (provided you've advanced far enough in the MSQ to have unlocked it). This being a story driven game, the formula isn't likely to change.

Strange how I've heard the opposite about normal dungeons from content creators that play both FFXIV and WoW. They find normal WoW dungeons excessively easy compared to FFXIV. It's only once they reach the middle keys in M+ that they start finding the WoW dungeons more challenging. And by the time you get to those, you're done leveling and focused on the end game gear grind.

Anything can happen was true of many of the original Vanilla WoW dungeons but they're just a memory now. Blizzard ended up streamlining them and later dungeons (unless they changed dungeon design since I quit at the end of Legion). Even when I was still playing, you knew what was going to happen for boss mechanics and players had figured out a most efficient route (including what trash had to be pulled and what could be skipped). They weren't anymore engaging than FFXIV dungeons by the time I quit.

It's doubtful that anything here is going to change substantially when it the game appears to be mostly meeting expectations in the JP player base. It is a JP game, not a western game after all. My advice will always be to seek out the game a provides what you enjoy instead of expecting a game to change to please you. Paying for and playing games that aren't enjoyed sends the wrong message to the gaming industry about what games players want to be seeing on the market.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Why do we even have an open world if it’s nothing but a pretty backdrop for an MSQ that barely uses a 10th of it

---

Imagine the lag and other issues if the open world zones were packed with content so huge amounts of players were always congregated in them. What is common at hunt trains now would be a minor irritation in comparison.

That's why MMORPGs began turning to instanced content instead of having everything open world. The game would literally (for a change) become unplayable for many players and that would cut deep into the revenue stream for the gaming corporations as those players quit.

It's the technology available and affordable to the average consumer that holds things back for MMORPGs. WoW really isn't any better when it comes to the amount of content available in open world zones, they just do it differently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

In contrast, FFXIV gets new players all the time and SE's aim is to make sure a new player, who has no idea what they are doing, can get through the dungeon and progress the story, since many people literally just play for the story then quit.

---

I don't think an unchanging formula has much to do with new player retention... Especially when even Yoshida said it was not likely to change specifically because it's a matter of chain productivity to be able to churn more in less time than anything else?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RaideDuku

1. Holiday events used to take longer, usually due to a token system that you had to do special fates or some sort of repeatable quests to get. There was even a Moonfire Fair event where you had to craft fish and chips to turn in with actual crafting. However, people complained that it took to long, and like most times when CB3 listens, the cursed monkey paw's finger curled and we got what we got.

---

They were a boring, uninteresting grind. Glad they're not anymore. I'd rather have the devs put their resources elsewhere if it's just to get this.

The only good ones were the haunted manor events, and especially that one that got us into a modified spooky instance of Tam Tara with special objectives, which truly felt like a new dungeon with different gameplay on its own.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

The best ones I remember involved a haunted house with tricks you had to work together to overcome and find the password and there was a higher prospect of failure than any normal dungeon content in the game. The same happened the first time they released the Valentione's two-person dungeon, where again, you could actually fail it and feel salty toward your partner, and in that moment, know that you aren't a match. :p For the Rising, we once did a recreation of the 1.0 calamity which was a duty. Before Bard music, we had an early preview of that system in one of the events.

---

The haunted house was really cool, and I like that they’ve been bringing back the mansion area with the NPC masquerade each year. It’s a great gpose spot! I would’ve loved to play that Rising duty, but that was before my time. Those are the kinds of things I like to see in the events, along with new emotes, furnishings and outfits. The outfits could use some more variety though… I think we have like 4 variations of a traditional Santa suit now. The upcoming All Saints Wake event is a step in the right direction.

I’m not really sure what else they could add to make it more interesting… I think they’re trying to strike a balance between those that want to just get it over with quickly so they can collect their rewards and those who would rather have a more involved event.

Maybe they could have different mini games with 7 days worth of rewards, but you could earn them any time over the usual 2 weeks or so of the event. So it would encourage you to log in more often during the event, but you still wouldn’t miss anything if you couldn’t be there every single day. And to be clear, I don’t mean taking a five piece outfit and spreading each piece out over the event either. More like day 1 - outfit, day 2 - emote, day 3 - furnishing, day 4 - fireworks, etc.

It's funny, with holiday events, once you have something pretty good made, most players are fine with repeating it every year if you just add a couple new items to it. Especially when compared to "talk to 3 NPCs".

I'm genuinely looking forward to Shadow of the Mad King (Halloween) and Wintersday (Christmas) in Guild Wars 2 and I don't even play the game that much. I still haven't bough Janthir Wilds. There are plenty of different events on relatively short timers, all of which give rewards. That way it's easy to skip one thing you don't like and focus on something else. Or if you're going for achievements/weeklies, just do that thing a few times then focus on other stuff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miguel85NYC

1. Holiday events

---

Man.. if you knew about the festive bells

I do wish they'd have a bit more consistent charm with the holiday events. They've had them now and then, but there are clearly some years where I guess they don't have the resources and it's just a basic quest, which is a shame. I still fondly remember the year the christmas quest was about getting a choir good enough to play for this little elezen kid, and it was the same rhythm minigame as the one from Ishgard restoration but super funny if you failed it. I really liked that one. I wouldn't mind if they reused some of those older minigames but with new stories, just not to the point over overuse obviously.

I'm also probably in the minority, but I was really sad when they super-simplified/streamlined a lot of the older ARR dungeons for one of the post 6.0 patches. The older dungeons may have been annoying to some because they didn't all flow the same, but that's exactly why I liked them; they weren't all just the same tunnel-vision experience that current ones always are now. Some of them actually branched around to other things to see/do or had mechanics that you had to think about and not just faceroll.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

I don't think an unchanging formula has much to do with new player retention...

---

Consistency (such as same markers, etc) makes it smooth for new players to get through the MSQ. After the MSQ, many of them will break until the next patch or expansion and SE knows that. Obviously, it's always going to be a minority that want to play the game hardcore / do raids and social content and stuff like that.

The reason for 2 packs of trash always is because there used to be more, but it was deeply unsettling for everyone and still is in some ARR dungeons. You can literally pull like 10? 20? packs in Amdapor Keep! They die really fast now, but they can still potentially wipe everyone if all 4 people are not good players and well-geared and that was much worse in the past before battle system changes.

As a tank there is an anxiety of how many to pull and a pressure to pull them all because most parties want that. Yet doing so carries a huge risk. So SE started enforcing a wall every 2-3 packs and it's been smooth ever since. This makes it better for the whole party and reduces anxiety, but as a cost, it's less exciting.

Quote:

---

Especially when even Yoshida said it was not likely to change specifically because it's a matter of chain productivity to be able to churn more in less time than anything else?

---

It has a lot of benefits, including for chain productivity. The consistency of 3 bosses mixed with 2 sets of 2 packs of trash before them makes it consistent and smooth and easy for them to plan ahead. It makes it consistent for players, who know what to expect and know how long a dungeon will take. It reduces anxiety of "how much should I pull" that ARR dungeons still create.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

It has a lot of benefits, including for chain productivity. The consistency of 3 bosses mixed with 2 sets of 2 packs of trash before them makes it consistent and smooth and easy for them to plan ahead. It makes it consistent for players, who know what to expect and know how long a dungeon will take. It reduces anxiety of "how much should I pull" that ARR dungeons still create.

---

To play devils advocate, why even bother having trash mobs then?

Part of the problem with streamlining everything and removing every little hard edge that someone could hurt themselves on is that you get a super boring end product.

If there's no threat to dying to trash and we know it'll always be two pulls before the boss then truly, what is the point?

Additionally, given that all dungeons are largely the same format now (ie: hallway with 2 pulls, boss fight, hallway with 2 pulls boss....) we should at the very least get more dungeons.

I pointed this out in another thread but we got more in a shorter period of time in earlier expansions when the game had less resources/income vs now. The influx of players, which should result in more revenue and should result in more content for the game has simply not happened.

It's one of my biggest frustration points as a long term player.

Why does the field exploration content take so long to implement (when its the only grindy aspect left for current content outside of tomes/savage drops), why do we only get one dungeon per patch (is it even one per patch now? is it every other? I forget...), why isn't there more smaller scale events put into the game so these long droughts for the main content doesn't feel so long? Why are holidays so quick and boring now when they used to have more substance?

Honestly this all comes back to them being lazy and getting comfortable with the status quo for how they do things.

They really felt like they gave a damn back when they were trying to revive the game from its death in 1.0 but now it seems they are just happy to let things continue as is, player satisfaction be damned.

Oh and lastly .. . they put a TON of effort and resources into dumbing down all the old content to make it soloable with NPCs; why not have that be the way for people scared of tanking/healing content to clear it without having to have anxiety and make full party player dungeons (and other content) more challenging?

Not saying I have all the answers but yeah the games boring and stale and the DT story didn't do that fact any favors.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KurenXIV

To play devils advocate, why even bother having trash mobs then?

---

The trash does sometimes have interesting mechanics, SE just goes back and forth on it. For example, in Shadowbringers they added a lot of interruptable casts that, if interrupted, made it easier for the healers. This can also be the case occasionally in ARR, HW and Stormblood. For example, the mobs in Sirensong Sea, the bees in Neverreap, the petrify mobs in Haukke Manor, various Morbols, swings from Cyclops and the many casts of Chimeras. There are also a lot of proper interactions with the trash there such as placing them on stones in Qarn, dragging mobs to chains in Halitali HM or the vents in Sohm Al HM or ignoring treasure coffers that might be mimicks etc.

Quote:

---

Part of the problem with streamlining everything and removing every little hard edge that someone could hurt themselves on is that you get a super boring end product.

---

I agree and SE acknowledged this mistake shortly before Dawntrail so their intention is to change that through Dawntrail. Whether that is or becomes a success I'll leave for you to judge.

Quote:

---

If there's no threat to dying to trash and we know it'll always be two pulls

---

I disagree that there's "no threat". Definitely still seen people wipe to trash. Of course, it's usually fine with good players, but if you actually just queue with random players instead of 3 veteran friends, you can find yourself having a whole lot more fun precisely because of the varying skill and experience levels.

Quote:

---

we should at the very least get more dungeons.

---

Well the reason we had more dungeons made before was because we didn't have many compared to WoW. We have somewhere close to (or abouts) 100 now, so SE decided we have plenty now and to focus development on other things. I don't mind the development shift, but I would like Expert roulette to have more variety - so I would like Expert and Level 100 roulette to just be merged so we aren't getting 2 dungeons for most of the expansion.

It's worth pointing out that they did start making more dungeons, called Variant and Criterion. They may not be exactly what you're wanting and maybe they need feedback to steer them in the direction you want, but they are still a form of dungeon.

Quote:

---

I pointed this out in another thread but we got more in a shorter period of time in earlier expansions when the game had less resources/income vs now. The influx of players, which should result in more revenue and should result in more content for the game has simply not happened.

---

I feel like I disagree with this. Just because the content isn't what you're into doesn't mean it's less content. We didn't used to get Variant, Criterion, Ultimate, Chaos Raids, Cosmic Exploration and Shades' Triangle in ARR! We didn't actually even get the normal modes of the 8-person raids in ARR since they were just the high-end content as they were.

Quote:

---

Why does the field exploration content take so long to implement (when its the only grindy aspect left for current content outside of tomes/savage drops)

---

It just does? And there's plenty of stuff to grind such as Extremes for the mount, FATEs, hunts, leveling all jobs, TT cards etc. if you're into grinds.

Quote:

---

Honestly this all comes back to them being lazy and getting comfortable with the status quo

---

I don't agree with the lazy part. But comfortable with the status quo is absolutely their intention. It makes it consistent for both them and players. Wouldn't be fun if some patches were 1 month apart and others were 11 months apart at complete random like I heard WoW used to be before they bought out a company with 100 spare developers. Knowing what I'm getting months in advance makes it easy to just get a 6 month subscription.

Quote:

---

Oh and lastly .. . they put a TON of effort and resources into dumbing down all the old content to make it soloable with NPCs; why not have that be the way for people scared of tanking/healing content to clear it without having to have anxiety and make full party player dungeons (and other content) more challenging?

---

I do agree that it presents an opportunity to make the version done by players more challenging. To a degree, it's more likely that they will do single pulls with Duty Support though, so it's already less challenging, but they could make other changes with players or allow players to vote on making it harder in exchange for more rewards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Why do we even have an open world if it’s nothing but a pretty backdrop for an MSQ that barely uses a 10th of it

---

It's to gpose in, of course!

...

...

Yeah, that's about it. Wish I had more to do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jojoya

Strange how I've heard the opposite about normal dungeons from content creators that play both FFXIV and WoW. They find normal WoW dungeons excessively easy compared to FFXIV. It's only once they reach the middle keys in M+ that they start finding the WoW dungeons more challenging. And by the time you get to those, you're done leveling and focused on the end game gear grind.

Anything can happen was true of many of the original Vanilla WoW dungeons but they're just a memory now. Blizzard ended up streamlining them and later dungeons (unless they changed dungeon design since I quit at the end of Legion). Even when I was still playing, you knew what was going to happen for boss mechanics and players had figured out a most efficient route (including what trash had to be pulled and what could be skipped). They weren't anymore engaging than FFXIV dungeons by the time I quit.

WoW really isn't any better when it comes to the amount of content available in open world zones, they just do it differently.

---

Translation: WoW did this thing a decade ago, so we made it worse and you're supposed to like it because...come on, who likes WoW, am I right fellas? FFXIV might be lacking in a certain area, but...look at WoW!

Quote:

---

the game appears to be mostly meeting expectations in the JP player base. It is a JP game, not a western game after all.

---

Translation: You see, in the Land of the Rising Sun, the mysterious Japanese do things differently. Learn the ways of the samurai, baka gaijin.

https://files.catbox.moe/kg9jsv.gif

If 75% of the playerbase is non Japanese and we pay the same subscription as they do calling it a Japanese game is just a cop out for ignoring your playerbase

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

I don't think an unchanging formula has much to do with new player retention... Especially when even Yoshida said it was not likely to change specifically because it's a matter of chain productivity to be able to churn more in less time than anything else?

---

I would stop arguing with that person, really. They are as apologetic to CBU3 as Striker44 is to the point where I wonder if they are being paid by Square Enix.

The thing is - you are right here. Yoshi-P himself admitted that the reason we are so formulaic is that it helps keep the game running with little to no input from the producer. If nothing changes and the devs grind out the same content as always, there is nothing to control or to innovate, leaving the producer free to do other things (like direct FF16, go to board meetings, etc etc).

At this point, its painfully obvious that most people don't criticize the ever unchanging flow of expected content, but are bemoaning the fact that there is nothing new added to that. A solid combination of traditionally working content, new, exciting innovations, and gameplay content with a long shelf life would make for banger content drops.

Unfortunately, CBU3 are so trapped in their almost robotic schedule that there is no way to inject new things and ideas into the mix. One would need to upheave and redesign their approach if we wanted things to improve.

When I played other MMOs, while the holiday events lasted longer, they also repeated every year with sometimes not even having new items to obtain. Now, I'm not saying FF14's events are good. If anything, they've gone downhill since ARR launched. I remember the old events having more than just a single reward and a piece of furniture and required you to do special FATEs or minigames to earn those rewards instead of just talking to a few NPCs and watching some forgettable cutscenes.

I think a lot of the simplifying and cutting things down is due to player feedback. Unfortunately, a lot of players wanted shorter events, easy levelling, and simplified dungeons so that's what we got now. This forum only represents an extremely small part of the playerbase, and those that are unhappy are the ones most likely to voice their opinions.

I think SE/Dev team thinks "if ain't broke don't fix it". There has been little innovation the past decade, minor here and there.
But I guess this applies to most live service games.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Consistency (such as same markers, etc) makes it smooth for new players to get through the MSQ. After the MSQ, many of them will break until the next patch or expansion and SE knows that. Obviously, it's always going to be a minority that want to play the game hardcore / do raids and social content and stuff like that.

The reason for 2 packs of trash always is because there used to be more, but it was deeply unsettling for everyone and still is in some ARR dungeons. You can literally pull like 10? 20? packs in Amdapor Keep! They die really fast now, but they can still potentially wipe everyone if all 4 people are not good players and well-geared and that was much worse in the past before battle system changes.

As a tank there is an anxiety of how many to pull and a pressure to pull them all because most parties want that. Yet doing so carries a huge risk. So SE started enforcing a wall every 2-3 packs and it's been smooth ever since. This makes it better for the whole party and reduces anxiety, but as a cost, it's less exciting.
It has a lot of benefits, including for chain productivity. The consistency of 3 bosses mixed with 2 sets of 2 packs of trash before them makes it consistent and smooth and easy for them to plan ahead. It makes it consistent for players, who know what to expect and know how long a dungeon will take. It reduces anxiety of "how much should I pull" that ARR dungeons still create.

---

Aren't we moving the goalposts here? I never said anything about opening wall to walls or even less to make dungeons more hardcore. The point was that it's an unchanging formula and that I don't see anything hinting at that it helps player retention. If anything once players aren't new anymore, some will fall into the lot that's happy about it because it's predictable fast food duties with no player interaction, and the rest will become bored very quickly.

There is many ways to change the formula and introduce new and interesting things without making the game hardcore. CLL had prisoners spread randomly across rooms. 8 man raids used to have some trash, gate bosses or more environment to go through than just an arena with a boss. We used to have actually different endgame dungeons (a lot with frankly mediocre experimental mechanics don't get me wrong), and yet it was 3 of them per major patch in ARR vs the 1 every major patch today.

Creativity has gone quite bankrupt for the sake of predictability and I quote "reducing player stress". Everything since ShB has been about reducing player stress.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

Aren't we moving the goalposts here? I never said anything about opening wall to walls or even less to make dungeons more hardcore.

---

Sorry, I assumed that because that's one of the main things most people cite when saying dungeons are the same. "It's just 2 packs always".

Quote:

---

There is many ways to change the formula and introduce new and interesting things without making the game hardcore. CLL had prisoners spread randomly across rooms. 8 man raids used to have some trash, gate bosses or more environment to go through than just an arena with a boss.

---

I agree that would be nice but dungeons are also just meant to be a way to tell the story and a nice visual spectacle. They could have stuff like saving prisoners since arguably there is that in Sastasha, but it would need to be really easy for the MSQ-only players.

Quote:

---

Creativity has gone quite bankrupt for the sake of predictability and I quote "reducing player stress". Everything since ShB has been about reducing player stress.

---

True. They have been trying to go back somewhat though, because in the expert dungeons you have the maze mechanic, the dolls that do lots of AoE, the boss with dolls running around like crazy and the last boss in that dungeon is really more interesting than what they normally do.

They haven't parted with the 3 bosses and trash formula, but it is a start with going backwards to the older design philosophy you could see with bosses in Heavensward, I just wonder if they will actually keep it up because all the next expert roulette dungeons will be required for MSQ.

I've often wondered when doing Praetorium why they don't do the mount riding thing more. My assumption has always been that they want players to fight themselves as their chosen job, not all do it the same in a mount, but it would still shake dungeons up a bit to have mounts with unique attacks sometimes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miguel85NYC

1. Holiday events are the most boring events I seen in FF14. We wait a whole year just to get a 10min quest line... really???? In other mmos you get content that last for weeks and get more than 1 reward.. FF14 is the weakest

2. Leveling has gotten extremely boring in FF14.. All you do is Read for 2 hours and get to do a dungeon that last for 15 mins and back to reading for another 2+ hours.. Zones feel bland and boring. mobs dont pull a threat..

3. Dungeons, 2 packs, 1 boss and repeat.. how is this fun? Its the same thing over and over... WoW dungeons are fun because anything can happen and getting to the boss can be challenging



Fix those issues

---

I'd go one step further and say the game is just getting stale at this point. What big changes have we really seen to it since Shadowbringers? The game itself has become so formulaic. I just got done playing Endwalker, and after suffering through Dawntrail's story, the game is just Endwalker with a packet of taco seasoning dumped on it. Great. I get not wanting to take risks, but after a while not changing things becomes risky in and of itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drimn

I'd go one step further and say the game is just getting stale at this point. What big changes have we really seen to it since Shadowbringers? The game itself has become so formulaic. I just got done playing Endwalker, and after suffering through Dawntrail's story, the game is just Endwalker with a packet of taco seasoning dumped on it. Great. I get not wanting to take risks, but after a while not changing things becomes risky in and of itself.

---

I'm kinda wondering if it's a severe misallocation of funding/talent. We're pretty confident that talent is being taken away from XIV and put on other projects. But I'm wondering how much of it is funding being put into the wrong projects. Looking at DT (minus graphics update, but I'll get to that) from a purely technical/cost view, at least from an outsider's perspective who has done PM work for games, that corners were cut in a lot of places. Sure, Living Memory was pretty...for about 45 minutes and so was the lower half of Yak'tel, and I'm sure there are plenty of people who like Solution 9, but there wasn't a whole lot that really stood out. Compare that to ShB and EW where the majority of zones were interesting and creative. Even the amount of voiced cutscenes seemed to be reduced (which isn't a bad thing since it was all Wuk anyways), or the amount of cutscenes which used novel camera angles or emotes. Everything felt stock, plain, safe, and boring.

This makes me wonder if a lot of the budget for the story, cutscenes, zone design, job design, etc.... was siphoned away so it could be put into the graphics update, temporary server capacity for launch, hiring unionized American VAs, etc... and the XIV team expected to just be able to get by using the same formula they have been for years?

I dont know, I find DT's areas the best we've had so far in terms of mood and flavor. But maybe that's the environment artist in me talking. Plot wise... may be a different story and we're not exactly going back in time exploring the wonderland of the Ancients, although the world building was A+ for me in this expansion, probably its biggest redeeming feature.

I actually didn't find living memory pleasing at all, it was very disagreeable visually to me.

Either way, I don't think there is a budget issue on creative resources, visual, sound, music, etc. But on the side of programming and game design, I'm really, really wondering what the hell they're doing. Viera/Hrotgar hats? Glamour slots? Job design? Encounter design? And so on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Sorry, I assumed that because that's one of the main things most people cite when saying dungeons are the same. "It's just 2 packs always".
I agree that would be nice but dungeons are also just meant to be a way to tell the story and a nice visual spectacle. They could have stuff like saving prisoners since arguably there is that in Sastasha, but it would need to be really easy for the MSQ-only players.
True. They have been trying to go back somewhat though, because in the expert dungeons you have the maze mechanic, the dolls that do lots of AoE, the boss with dolls running around like crazy and the last boss in that dungeon is really more interesting than what they normally do.

They haven't parted with the 3 bosses and trash formula, but it is a start with going backwards to the older design philosophy you could see with bosses in Heavensward, I just wonder if they will actually keep it up because all the next expert roulette dungeons will be required for MSQ.

I've often wondered when doing Praetorium why they don't do the mount riding thing more. My assumption has always been that they want players to fight themselves as their chosen job, not all do it the same in a mount, but it would still shake dungeons up a bit to have mounts with unique attacks sometimes.

---

It could be one pack, two packs, or even ten, what matters is their damage output and combined level of threat. Hell it could even start with a single mob and slowly fill the room with more and more until a specific objective is achieved or you die of mob snusnu (something they almost did in Alzadhal actually...). Remember the first boss of Dusk Vigil? You used to need to get rid of the adds, it was a matter of party resources and healing past a point. Now we just bruteforce through it like all old content because we have lost most of the battle system on the way... They've started adding back some adds timidly in DT leveling dungeons during bosses but they die in 2 hits. Like... come on, really?

It could be one more boss like in brayflox, or maybe one less, or maybe there is no fucking boss, as long as the rest is fresh and fun idk. Not like we don't have enough bosses in the game already... everything is turning into bosses those days, even solo instances.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drimn

I'd go one step further and say the game is just getting stale at this point. What big changes have we really seen to it since Shadowbringers? The game itself has become so formulaic. I just got done playing Endwalker, and after suffering through Dawntrail's story, the game is just Endwalker with a packet of taco seasoning dumped on it. Great. I get not wanting to take risks, but after a while not changing things becomes risky in and of itself.

---

I completely agree, the game needs to evolve already

I’ve invited more than 10 friends to this game, and they all quit because of the same things

Do the bosses have randomized mechanics in WoW? I'm curious what you mean by anything can happen because I've never played it before. I think it'd be fun and would have players look at the enemy cast bar more which is useful in a lot of fights without AoE telegraphs

I do like a lot of the old ARR dungeons, since quite a lot of them had unique mechanics or other things to watch out for other than the boss

The first example I can think of is Aurum Vale and the mechanic to eat fruit to get rid of debuffs. It's especially handy if anyone gets hit by bad breath during the last boss
Playing more with the environment would be fun

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CVXIV

Do the bosses have randomized mechanics in WoW? I'm curious what you mean by anything can happen because I've never played it before. I think it'd be fun and would have players look at the enemy cast bar more which is useful in a lot of fights without AoE telegraphs

I do like a lot of the old ARR dungeons, since quite a lot of them had unique mechanics or other things to watch out for other than the boss

The first example I can think of is Aurum Vale and the mechanic to eat fruit to get rid of debuffs. It's especially handy if anyone gets hit by bad breath during the last boss
Playing more with the environment would be fun

---

WoW fights are still scripted, they don't just throw random things at you. I haven't played since MoP but I remember not seeing long casts or huge telegraphs because they expect people to use add-ons to track these things, something SE doesn't allow. Boss abilities seem to be a bit more themed and frequently repeated and don't have generic abilities like stacking or spreading thrown into every single fight.

You definitely see more done with the environments, though. Most rooms are not circles nor rectangles and look more like they fit into the environment, instead of being some floating platform or area surrounded by deathwalls. Some bosses patrol large areas and where you decide to pull them to is where you fight them, they do not have a room designed for the fight. At lot of this has to do with how dungeons and raids are designed however. WoW has gigantic instances filled with several enemies and bosses, where as FF14 either follows the same formula of 2 double packs then a boss then repeat 2 more times for every dungeon, and raids are broken down into single encounters with no trash (at least not since Alexander).

They definitely use the vertical axis a lot more too, something I don't think works too well with FF14's delayed server ticks. When you get thrown into the air in FF14, you lose complete control of your character as you flip over and over until hitting the ground or dropping off the edge. I remember a couple fights in WoW where you're thrown into the air and will die from fall damage if you didn't use something to save yourself or the raid did something to save you. There's even a few fights that require you to fly through the air due to some mechanic.

Could do what WoW does and have a mount drop at like 0.1% chance. You get 1 try each day of the event to get said mount.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krojack

Could do what WoW does and have a mount drop at like 0.1% chance. You get 1 try each day of the event to get said mount.

---

Eww

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Espon

WoW fights are still scripted, they don't just throw random things at you. I haven't played since MoP but I remember not seeing long casts or huge telegraphs because they expect people to use add-ons to track these things, something SE doesn't allow. Boss abilities seem to be a bit more themed and frequently repeated and don't have generic abilities like stacking or spreading thrown into every single fight.

You definitely see more done with the environments, though. Most rooms are not circles nor rectangles and look more like they fit into the environment, instead of being some floating platform or area surrounded by deathwalls. Some bosses patrol large areas and where you decide to pull them to is where you fight them, they do not have a room designed for the fight. At lot of this has to do with how dungeons and raids are designed however. WoW has gigantic instances filled with several enemies and bosses, where as FF14 either follows the same formula of 2 double packs then a boss then repeat 2 more times for every dungeon, and raids are broken down into single encounters with no trash (at least not since Alexander).

They definitely use the vertical axis a lot more too, something I don't think works too well with FF14's delayed server ticks. When you get thrown into the air in FF14, you lose complete control of your character as you flip over and over until hitting the ground or dropping off the edge. I remember a couple fights in WoW where you're thrown into the air and will die from fall damage if you didn't use something to save yourself or the raid did something to save you. There's even a few fights that require you to fly through the air due to some mechanic.

---

This sounds so much more RPG than what we have... You know, the second part of MMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KillaKilala

I’ve invited more than 10 friends to this game, and they all quit because of the same things

---

yeah, over the years i have been unsuccessful in making any of my IRL friends stick with the game. no1 is the leveling as a group sucks a$$. they are used to group up and smash stuff in wow together

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krojack

Could do what WoW does and have a mount drop at like 0.1% chance. You get 1 try each day of the event to get said mount.

---

so ex trials on realease ?