Hate Reset What are your Thoughts?

As title says what are your thoughts & opinions about the current constant use of hate reset in this game?

Do you like it, do you dislike it?

I don't mind it as a mechanic that's used sparingly. Or as a mechanic that triggers due to fault of a player. I severely dislike it as a spammable mechanic that isn't even tied to an ability.

I don't mind it if used very sparingly. Shouldn't really be something that happens out of the blue, though.

What I would like is more player control over who is on top of the enmity list so that you can then add encounters where the tanks switching mobs would be vital to the raid's success.

What the others before me have said, sparingly. There is a difference between something unique and a possible challenge vs........... disgruntling and annoying.

Sure, maybe one monster can do it as an ability, or its triggered by something, but to do it every 15 seconds.... <no thanks>

I like it in some fights, but when it's over used it becomes annoying.

I don't mind it, but it's often used way too much in the fights that have them.

i agree with you all
Altho my main reason why i dislike it is because 99% of the time i resets to the whm while no matter what you do as tank you cannot get hate back. then repeats over & over & over as you guys all said.

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Originally Posted by prymortal

i agree with you all
Altho my main reason why i dislike it is because 99% of the time i resets to the whm while no matter what you do as tank you cannot get hate back. then repeats over & over & over as you guys all said.

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Well, encounters with that are normally designed so that the aggro wipe tests the tank's reaction timing. The idea is that usually the tank has to taunt the boss/mob in time so that it doesn't plow through the healers/DPS, build up hate and go back to the business as usual. That's not exactly possible here because PLD and WAR lack taunts...

Its not a very fun mechanic. Not much else to add other then we would need more real taunts that tanks can use to make it acceptable. I'm all for keeping a tank on his toes but once you have a warrior lose hate its almost laughable on how long it takes for them to get it back if you catch them with no tp.

This is a common mechanic they use in XI to increase difficulty through chance, though often XI hate resets are single target instead of complete hate resets which are what usually occurs in XIV.

Either way, it's a bullshit mechanic and it's lazy from a development point of view.

Coincounter is the right way to use hate reset.

Golem is the wrong way to use hate reset.

This may just be my PLD rage talking, but I think they're used too damn much in this game. I think it's a cop out to be honest, like the battle team couldn't think of any other ways to spice up a fight.

There are just too many NMs that use it. It's like punishing you for bringing a job for each role.

I think Coincounter is ok, because the fight is otherwise cake. There's also the Magitek Vanguard in 'United We Stand'. It makes the fight more fun and makes you think about strategy involving the generators.

Then you have uses of it like with 'Keeping the Oath' where if the Ogre decides your WHM is unfit to live, it pursues them until they are a bloody stain on the mountainside.

There are acceptable and unacceptable battles for hate resets. I'm slightly concerned SE is simply going "More is better" for this mechanic. -.-;

I'd much rather see a reset that is in essense not a reset but lets say Cancels all hate for a few swings then brings it back as it was before. It would be a risk to anyone it attacks that is low on HP. But if everyones been careful with their HP (either WHMs have been healing well. DDs avoid damage/enviormentals etc)

This would give the tank a chance to grab it back immediately, but not cancel all the hate gen they've done through the fight while still giving some risk to anyone lagging behind in health should the tank be unable to get it immediately. May actually add some extra use to Featherfoot and such skills. If the DDs and healers are on their toes for something like this, they can show their skill by popping some of the one time defence skills.

All out hate resets like we have now slow everything way down when your waiting for the tank to get hate back. And if they happen alot the tank is doing nothing but mashing +hate buttons. In its current form its a quick healer kill mechanic if a heal is casted later (or lagged in). Not super fun.

Another one that could be interesting is if some bosses had a skill or AOE that Lowered current hate at a target area. This could be interesting that if it was somewhat random for the target it could help a healer or DD unleash more damage. And if it was AOE quick thinking DDs and healers could use that to their advantage.

I dont mind hate reset like others, as long as its not in everything. IMO hate resets is used to test entire party's survival ability, otherwise u'd have retarded DPS that only knows how to DPS and not take care of themselves, blaming WHMs for their faulty.

Ok he just hate reset, do i keep punching? do i press featherfoot? do i kite? do i need to eat pots? do i help establish hate so the mages wont die while tank is working his hate again? do i stun him? do i bind him? if he is bound, should i not break the bind?

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Well, encounters with that are normally designed so that the aggro wipe tests the tank's reaction timing. The idea is that usually the tank has to taunt the boss/mob in time so that it doesn't plow through the healers/DPS, build up hate and go back to the business as usual. That's not exactly possible here because PLD and WAR lack taunts...

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Yip, as its currently is
WARRIOR:
Sentinel: Temporarily reduces damage taken. Increases enmity generated by actions while effect is active.
Flash: Increases target's enmity.
Collusion: Redirects a portion of enmity generated by target party member’s attack to you. Target must be within 8 yalms.
Provoke: Increases target's enmity.
Antagonize: Increases enmity generated by all actions.
Heavy Swing►Skull Sunder (Increased enmity.)
+ emity materia equiped
Doesnt matter how you use them, stack them with or without hits inbetween, with or without combos inbetwteen, on there own, they are not enough at the best of times.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Ok he just hate reset, do i keep punching? do i press featherfoot? do i kite? do i need to eat pots? do i help establish hate so the mages wont die while tank is working his hate again? do i stun him? do i bind him? if he is bound, should i not break the bind?

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Then once you have done all of the above, the monster hate resets again and you have no other option than to eat a face full of death because the move has no cooldown timer, rhyme, or reason for happening other than the boss was in a bad mood that day.

Now if they could hate reset once every 30 seconds or something like that then I'm cool gives people time to be prepared for the next possible cluster**** of lost hate and be sure they aren't short that vital kiting/binding/hate generating skill that only 2-3 people have in your party on long cooldowns.

I like it on Coincounter.

Great Elm/Golem thing/stupid eyes in Skirmish are ridiculous with it though. Just turns the fight into "spam the crap out of spells since enmity resets every 5 seconds anyways." REALLY lowers the skill required to do the content.

I wouldn't mind it if it wasn't so frequent.

Moogle king's reset is faster than I'd like but manageable + 1 voke usually gets him back.

Skirmish Golem on the other hand is complete bullsh*t.

I would mind it a lot less if it were accompanied with some sort of audio or visual cue that took place at least a second or two before the hate reset went off.

This would still present an unusual challenge to new players yet those of us who have grown familiar with the content would still have a reasonable ability to deftly avoid the mechanic that does not break immersion (as vigilantly watching the chat log tends to do).

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Originally Posted by Viritess

I'd much rather see a reset that is in essense not a reset but lets say Cancels all hate for a few swings then brings it back as it was before. It would be a risk to anyone it attacks that is low on HP. But if everyones been careful with their HP (either WHMs have been healing well. DDs avoid damage/enviormentals etc)

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You mean something that temporarily removes the main tank from the fight? It might be a good way to encourage 2 tank strategies.

It's an OLD and boring mechanic that need to go away in 2.0..

It is the only thing that make some fights "kinda" difficult, only because the hate control in this game is the worst ever.

Every game has taunt that put you 1° in aggro. And everyone should stop dps till the tank make some threat.. Here not. And this at 99% of cases make useless to use Raise on a tank after he die for example.

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Originally Posted by Churchill

This is a common mechanic they use in XI to increase difficulty through chance, though often XI hate resets are single target instead of complete hate resets which are what usually occurs in XIV.

Either way, it's a bullshit mechanic and it's lazy from a development point of view.

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THIS. Simply THIS.

They used it a lot in XI, cuz i suppose that with his engine/client, they can't make difficult "Wow style fight" (different mechanics, phases, things to avoid, buffs/debuffs to pass to member/monsters etc.) and it was ok 10 years ago

And here in XIV in, 2012 it's simply boring... Yeah and i think too that the Dev Team was (is?) too lazy to bring more mechanics to "normal boss/monster" ... So what they could do to make fight not simply a tank and spank where everyone stand? HATE RESET yeah!

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Originally Posted by Dragonheart

And here in XIV in, 2012 it's simply boring... Yeah and i think too that the Dev Team was (is?) too lazy to bring more mechanics to "normal boss/monster" ... So what they could do to make fight not simply a tank and spank where everyone stand? HATE RESET yeah!

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I like to think that, provided 2.0's engine is superior to 1.0's engine, we will see more involved and interesting encounters once 2.0 hits. Hopefully those gameplay demos at gamescon will show this rather than more of the same. 1.0's engine really is lacking mechanics-wise. >.>;;;

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I like to think that, provided 2.0's engine is superior to 1.0's engine, we will see more involved and interesting encounters once 2.0 hits. Hopefully those gameplay demos at gamescon will show this rather than more of the same. 1.0's engine really is lacking mechanics-wise. >.>;;;

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We are in the era where mmorpg are turning in action.. If SE wants to succeed with 2.0 , it should be much more fast paced.(not like tera of gw2 btw) With fun and dynamic mechanics! (garuda and ifrit are a good point to start to work on)

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Originally Posted by Duelle

You mean something that temporarily removes the main tank from the fight? It might be a good way to encourage 2 tank strategies.

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Something like that but not permanently. my though was:
Tank gets initial hate. Lets say 200 Hate (Theoretical numbers just for illustration.)
Boss does Temp Hate cancel: Tank 0 hate
DD has 180 hate.
Boss takes 2 or 3 swings at DD.
Boss Temp hate cancel wears off
Tank has 200 hate.
Boss runs after Tank again. (assuming DD didnt add more hate then tank had originally)

Temp hate loss. Then its up to how they want it to work if the Tank has no chance to build additional hate. Or if whatever he puts on during that time adds to the past total. I think it would be a positive to allow the tank to add more hate while the "cancel" is active. It will keep people on the toes, but keep repeatitive hate resets from being rediculas since its not a complete hate wipe.

I think something like this could work to bring a second tank into fights and/or allow skilled groups who are good at managing their hate to bring one tank and add extra total damage.

While i don't mind 2 tank or 1 tank dungeons i'd much prefer Hate resets to allow the interchanging of both when possible. We already seem to have some Job specific dungeons, it would be a step in the right direction in my opinion to help allow some ability for groups to vary depending on who is available when possible. Hate mechanics can help or hurt such options depending on how and when they work.

It's cheap.

In large MMO battles where a single enemy attack can wipe out all mages, everything depends on correct hate management. If we take the time to limit our DPS, use hate resetting abilities, or allow tanks to build up enough hate before we start attacking, a move that leaves tanks with 0 hate and no possibility to reclaim it unless people start dying is absolutely cheap.

I am going to side with the its ok in small doses crowd.

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Originally Posted by Dragonheart

We are in the era where mmorpg are turning in action.. If SE wants to succeed with 2.0 , it should be much more fast paced.(not like tera of gw2 btw) With fun and dynamic mechanics! (garuda and ifrit are a good point to start to work on)

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Very true, ppl are in an era where they wanna see action and are very impatient to wait for it to happen ppl have short attention spands. that decade old system from XI along with other past mmo's mechanics arent gonna work in this era, back then yes but not now! ppl dont wanna sit around for forever just for the character to do something. xiv needs a system thats fast, fun, effective that slow battle pace and with same boring tank and spank & hate reset its old we need something new.

Maybe we could have mutli targets on a single enemy you attack the legs it cant move then is at disadvantage against ranged or each body part has different defense stat taking more dmg(heck maybe on one part is weak againt melee other is magic) but this system with boss and just a bunch of trash add mobs is lame, as long SE are creative/open minded the possiblities are endless what they could come up with for 2.0

as for the battle pace I see that auto attack needs to be improved having multi hits, its just boring to sit and wait for your character to do the same move everytime to build tp then finally do a combo and move around thats if your combo lands if you miss then you have to wait all over again. I along with some others would like to see multi hits in auto attack, each hit would build tp and do dmg of course(not just for show) and when finally done the set of hits you wait the few secs for the weapon dealy and it starts again with the mutli hits.

example gla level 1-19 does a thrust, level 20-39 thrust & slice, 40-59 thrust,slice, shield punch, 60-79 thrust,slice,shield punch, plummel with back end of sword,so on so on... you get the idea. the player obviously could change that set up to either random set of hits or exact/preffered string of hits as they please.

maybe auto attacks & multi targets on mob will allow players to start hitting one body part and then switch to other mid auto attack. weither or not this is possible will be determined by how fast your chararter executes thier auto attack. but it would be neat for say gla to attack a mob chest area with a slice then switch to arm and thrust, then shield punch the head just wanna throw it out thier.

right now the battle pace is fair and thats due to combos, take that out and you will see just how slow/boring it would be without it. thats why i say auto attacks with multi hits will make it even faster which ppl want and honestly most ppl will probably dislike any weapon delay past about 4secs espeically when its a one hit attack its too slow and boring. now come time for 2.0 combos along with better auto attack and battle regimens(hopefully thats good) and better battle methods/tactics will make 2.0 good.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

I like it on Coincounter.

Great Elm/Golem thing/stupid eyes in Skirmish are ridiculous with it though. Just turns the fight into "spam the crap out of spells since enmity resets every 5 seconds anyways." REALLY lowers the skill required to do the content.

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The Ahriman eyes?
They have never reset hate for me. I think it's just the stuns and other few CC they spam preventing your tank from generating and keeping hate.

The mobs in this game that have hate reset spam it as an ability which really just leaves the tank feeling defeated/annoyed because they can't do their job like they know they can just because the mob is resetting hate every 10 seconds.

If this is going to be in the game it shouldn't be an ability that gets spammed; It should be something that happens when a certain requirement is met (that can be avoided by using proper tactics).

Example: A mob will use hate reset if you are killing it too quickly, or even too slow. Or perhaps it will use it during HP% phases where you can expect it to happen and act accordingly.

But this nonsense where the mob is doing Hate Reset -> Beat down a BLM -> Back to tank -> hate reset -> beat down a WHM -> back to tank -> etc. Just because the game is rolling the reset dice constantly is redundant, annoying, a terrible mechanic that really just leaves everyone with a bitter taste in their mouth because their ability to keep hate, or in DPS/healers case make sure they never have it becomes completely pointless.

I know I hate it when I can't show my ability in battle due to shitty mechanics.

I..(Dare I say it?) Hate it, it gets tedious and annoying.

Iirc hate reset moves resets entire party's hate. Except great buffalo if you are not in his sonorous blast range, but it was tanaka's creation.

as a tank................i hate it so much, Today i built enough hate just to be reset not even the min i got it back, then it tanks so long to get back that hate, just to be reset again.


coincounter is a good mechanic fight, but the rest of hate reset needs to go.

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Originally Posted by neorei

as a tank................i hate it so much, Today i built enough hate just to be reset not even the min i got it back, then it tanks so long to get back that hate, just to be reset again.


coincounter is a good mechanic fight, but the rest of hate reset needs to go.

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/nod , or make taunt works like other mmos.

Definitely agree that it's okay - even great - if used sparingly, or in a tactically interesting way - the hate mechanics of the United We Stand fight were pretty interesting, although it wasn't really a hate /reset/.

If we had a different set of abilities, and tanks had more hate tools, it might not suck- but right now it just makes a lot of fights incredibly annoying and fake-difficult.

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Originally Posted by prymortal

As title says what are your thoughts & opinions about the current constant use of hate reset in this game?

Do you like it, do you dislike it?

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Honestly, i'm tired of it because of FF11. It was also a recent trend with SE and it seems to have carried over to FF14.

I'm not against the idea, but it would be nice if they could change it up a bit more. Even if it's just that the monster stops using the reset once you reach 50-75%~.

The randomness of it though is just too annoying, even if it does make people think on their feet.
Maybe when we have more enfeebs this won't be a problem. We could always bind, gravity, freeze, entangle etc...


The direction i would rather see is more mechanics over just monster abilities used at random all the time (for bosses & regular monsters).
It was one interesting thing i liked about Diablo 3 later on. Just when you thought it was the same old monster, BAM! Walls, Lasers, Poison, Fire etc...

So in other words, i would say i dislike it.

A bit semi ot, but the whole system to build aggro have to change... Provoke and flash (provoke mostly) shouldn't be used to build aggro, but to raise you on the top of the "aggro list" , and then you should have a rotation (more ws than the ones that we currently have) to stay always on the top of the aggro.. Imho.

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Originally Posted by Dragonheart

A bit semi ot, but the whole system to build aggro have to change... Provoke and flash (provoke mostly) shouldn't be used to build aggro, but to raise you on the top of the "aggro list" , and then you should have a rotation (more ws than the ones that we currently have) to stay always on the top of the aggro.. Imho.

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It's a shame we couldn't just "merit" our abilities to have additional effects (a skill tree basically, but for abilities).

stupid and lazy. really hope this phases out.

i'm in the group that dislikes it because it's used too much, but would be ok if it was conditional and not spammed over and over. i wouldn't mind it if it was used like as a special it does at % hp or damage dealt in a set time frame, but just repeating it and then getting hate back repeatedly is just a lazy way for the dev staff to make content. they need to have an imagination and make each fight unique and not just rehash the same basic fight over and over with a few different abilities, but the same basic strategy.