M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xINq44-heQc

Please discuss.

....aaaaaaand post quick reply

https://i.imgur.com/WpnU88K.gif

-elite players

-not optimal comp

-PF too stupid to do this

-can you do it

Upvotes to the left thanks

(/s just for safety)

>YOU NEED TO PLAY SAVAGE THEY AMPED UP THE DAMAGE THE BOSSES DO, HEALING IS SO NEEDED NOW

SE: “If you want to have fun as a healer just play the ultimate content above this savage tier which literally doesn’t exist yet! Why are you complaining?’

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

(/s just for safety)

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The /s that carries the post :p

I'd like to see this with Drk Knights, Brd, MCH, Sam, Drg, Ninja, Viper and BLM dps lol

It's a specific comp where everyone has healing, carried specifically with the overhealing PLD/WAR does, given they are half the group.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I'd like to see this with Drk Knights, Brd, MCH, Sam, Drg, Ninja, Viper and BLM dps lol

It's a specific comp where everyone has healing, carried specifically with the overhealing PLD/WAR does, given they are half the group.

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‘All they had to do was bring the non-healers that can meet healing requirements literally just as easy if they had healers. If they brought this extremely specific comp that had no healing whatsoever they would’ve needed healers!’

Except people shouldn’t have to literally avoid certain jobs because the damage output is so low that bringing them straight up invalidates healers?

I mean, I don’t think we can really argue that ‘in most groups people will be taking tons of damage and making mistakes all the time.’In final tier of current savage at week 2 of release? . I think anyone reaching that point is going to be beyond the point of needing ‘healer babysitters’.

This doesn’t account for the fact that they likely don’t even have max Ilvl on all their party members . I mean, consider it’s week 2, I don’t think it’s possible for literally every single one to have a full set of perfected Ilvl 720 gear. Maybe like if each individual member had a separate dedicated static that prioritised them specifically for gear lol? If this is possible with gear now , can’t you see how severe this issue will become when people get even stronger ?

And what about normal content? If you can do stuff like this in what’s intended to be ‘high difficulty content’, think about what means for normal difficulty content? If damage in the final tier (or floor or w/e the raider lingo is these days, back in my day it was coil turns lol) of savage is low enough that not-healers can manage it all, then damage in normal content which is way below that is going to be laughably low (which, it generally is). I mean, I don’t think healers in normal content are somehow being expected to heal savage levels of damage, so it’s always going to be significantly lower for normals.

The fact this keeps happening, closer and closer to actual release week, is a pretty major indicator of how messed up the healing role is. And I strongly disagree that this essentially ‘means nothing’

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I'd like to see this with Drk Knights, Brd, MCH, Sam, Drg, Ninja, Viper and BLM dps lol

It's a specific comp where everyone has healing, carried specifically with the overhealing PLD/WAR does, given they are half the group.

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Tanks have more survivability than healers, can dish out (sufficient) healing without losing on damage AND have higher damage than healers.

Maybe it's time for Healers to be able to deal more damage than tanks to compensate for their frailty.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I'd like to see this with Drk Knights, Brd, MCH, Sam, Drg, Ninja, Viper and BLM dps lol

It's a specific comp where everyone has healing, carried specifically with the overhealing PLD/WAR does, given they are half the group.

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They posted the logs and I would like to point out that the Paladins were *not* spamming clemency as one might think looking at it. They just used their regular oGCD tools and look at that it was enough to meet the healing requirements.

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Originally Posted by All_Nonsense

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xINq44-heQc

Please discuss.

....aaaaaaand post quick reply

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"Mr. President, M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2."

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...42/135/d81.jpg

and yet the majority of the playerbase couldnt even pass the heal checks, if they were able to bring 4 heals

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

and yet the majority of the playerbase couldnt even pass the heal checks, if they were able to bring 4 heals

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There are no heal checks in this game, there are mit checks. Which everyone in the group is responsible for. Then it's up to the healers to press a singular ogcd to resolve the actual healing part of it. wowza

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

and yet the majority of the playerbase couldnt even pass the heal checks, if they were able to bring 4 heals

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playerbase incompetent, make whole role into training wheels

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

playerbase incompetent, make whole role into training wheels

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Devs: ‘Best we can do is entire game on training wheels, Please Look Forward To Ittm

Here is an idea:

Make the DMG output of the bosses so negligible that people can clear current tiers and ultimates without tanks or healers.

obvious /s

What is there to discuss? There will always be top-tier players able to do things that the overwhelming majority of the playerbase have no chance at doing. It's happened in practically every game to ever exist. FF1 *has* been beaten with a party of only white mages (heck, it's been beaten with a *solo* white mage). FF9 has been beaten with all characters still at Level 1. There's an entire community dedicated to "speedrunning" games. Those feats are all impressive. They also mean absolutely nothing when it comes to the "design" of the game itself, because they're nowhere near the typical experience of normal players.

In a case like this, throw a DF group together into M4S (or any of the Arcadion fights) without a healer and watch what happens. What the "elite" can do isn't even worth discussing outside of a "congratulations to them."

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Originally Posted by Stabegabe

There are no heal checks in this game, there are mit checks. Which everyone in the group is responsible for. Then it's up to the healers to press a singular ogcd to resolve the actual healing part of it. wowza

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I mean, this isn't strictly true. This game actually has a recurring mechanic where everyone in the party will be reduced to 1 HP and given a Doom debuff which must be cleansed by healing to full. The only oGCD which can resolve that entirely on its own is Macrocosmos, and prior to level 90 content that mechanic does not trigger it, I assume because it's probably setting health to 1 manually rather than actually applying damage in older fights or something. (Fun fact you discover if you do Seat of Sacrifice EX unsynced to mount farm.)

Now, I'm not saying that is a difficult mechanic by any stretch of the imagination. (Or that healing in this game is remotely in a good place.)

But I am saying I've had to Vercure myself to safety as a RDM in Orbonne Monastery before because the healers couldn't make TG Cid's heal-to-full check due to seemingly thinking "I can just cast a single heal and call it good." So...

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

Tanks have more survivability than healers, can dish out (sufficient) healing without losing on damage AND have higher damage than healers.

Maybe it's time for Healers to be able to deal more damage than tanks to compensate for their frailty.

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I'm in favor! :D

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I'd like to see this with Drk Knights, Brd, MCH, Sam, Drg, Ninja, Viper and BLM dps lol

It's a specific comp where everyone has healing, carried specifically with the overhealing PLD/WAR does, given they are half the group.

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This used to be my exact mentality, but at this point it's happened with too many different fights, not to mention only on week 2.

Between this, the 2 min meta and job homogenisation, the whole system is a mess and needs to be redone from the ground up

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

-elite players

-PF too stupid to do this

-can you do it

(/s just for safety)

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Originally Posted by Striker44

What is there to discuss? There will always be top-tier players able to do things that the overwhelming majority of the playerbase have no chance at doing. It's happened in practically every game to ever exist. FF1 *has* been beaten with a party of only white mages (heck, it's been beaten with a *solo* white mage). FF9 has been beaten with all characters still at Level 1. There's an entire community dedicated to "speedrunning" games. Those feats are all impressive. They also mean absolutely nothing when it comes to the "design" of the game itself, because they're nowhere near the typical experience of normal players.

In a case like this, throw a DF group together into M4S (or any of the Arcadion fights) without a healer and watch what happens. What the "elite" can do isn't even worth discussing outside of a "congratulations to them."

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SE white knights remain as predictable as usual.


As a side not imagine comparing the balance and self imposed challenge of a single player game and think its a valid example to justifiy the glaring issues of a multiplayer one

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Originally Posted by Packetdancer

I mean, this isn't strictly true. This game actually has a recurring mechanic where everyone in the party will be reduced to 1 HP and given a Doom debuff which must be cleansed by healing to full. The only oGCD which can resolve that entirely on its own is Macrocosmos, and prior to level 90 that mechanic does not trigger it. (Fun fact you discover if you do Seat of Sacrifice EX unsynced to mount farm.)

Now, I'm not saying that is a difficult mechanic by any stretch of the imagination. (Or that healing in this game is remotely in a good place.)

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The thing is I don't even know if I would call those a heal check for the healers. Unless it's meant to check "do you actually have a healer".

When we have a DPS check, it means not only the DPS have to hit button, they need to have certain level of competency and optimization to meet the check.

On the other hand, most of the healer check is more like a "are you moron?" check. Every healer check can be overcome easily as long as the healers care enough to just spam their GCD. Most of the time when a healer check is fail it's usually because the healer try to sneak in damage GCD during the mech.

Is that how much of a joke the DPS check is? But congrats to the team that pulled it off in such a short span of time.

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Originally Posted by Derio

Is that how much of a joke the DPS check is? But congrats to the team that pulled it off in such a short span of time.

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I was under the impression tanks dealt more damage than healers.

That's awesome, congratulations to them. I'm guessing they're some fairly high skilled players!

https://media.tenor.com/yABLIcHuIXoA...n-burgundy.gif

ok cool story, gamers be gameing. love it

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Originally Posted by Derio

Is that how much of a joke the DPS check is? But congrats to the team that pulled it off in such a short span of time.

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Its not like the PLD were playing clemency gaming.
They got one of the 25 fastest kill at the time of their kill.

And onto the speedrunning argument, there is a big difference between breaking a 10+ year old game where speedrunner know every bug exploit and tricks possible and a live game currently being balanced / patched / fixed, done on the second week since this content released

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Originally Posted by All_Nonsense

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xINq44-heQc

Please discuss.

....aaaaaaand post quick reply

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And what's the issue? 99% of people can't do that

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

And what's the issue? 99% of people can't do that

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The issue is it being possible at all on week 2 of content release.
Pretty sure 99% of players haven't cleared M4S yet.

healer are already useless in most form on content, and know, in the hardest content in the game, on the second week, we are already shown that it is better to play with tanks instead.
Healers do the least damage in the game, are the most fragile role in the game, and their niche isn't even useful to the group since tank can do it + do better damage and be safer, what more do you need ?

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

-elite players

-not optimal comp

-PF too stupid to do this

-can you do it

Upvotes to the left thanks

(/s just for safety)

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"it's not a problem i swear guys"
point to any other mmo's endgame raids final boss being cleared without healers week 2, i'll wait.

I am not discredeting the skill of the players involved, but this should never be possible ever.

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Originally Posted by All_Nonsense

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xINq44-heQc

Please discuss.

....aaaaaaand post quick reply

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I appreciate them posting the evidence.

Once again proving the healers are just treated the worst in this game and they don't want to make them fun or fix the problems with the jobs. Amazing.

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Originally Posted by Wyti

Pretty sure 99% of players haven't cleared M4S yet.

healer are already useless in most form on content, and know, in the hardest content in the game, on the second week, we are already shown that it is better to play with tanks instead.

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Uh ... aren't you contradicting yourself here?

This is like saying there is a problem with automatic transmission because professional drivers and racers use manual to get better efficiency, ignoring the fact most normal driver will be better off with automatic.

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what more do you need ?

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I say you need more perspective so the comparison can make sense.

This isn't "A good chess player can beat you moving only his knight! Ooo, Wow! Congratulate him!"
This player would legitimately deserve praise, and that's all there is to it.

This is closer to "This player just beat a grandmaster level challenge without moving a single pawn."
This player would still deserve praise, but it immediately makes one stop and look at the games balance.

Now imagine paying a Sub and dishing out additional charges per expansion for chess, only to be given the second scenario. The dev's tell you "we'll revisit pawn balancing in the future, look forward to it" But they said that in the renaissance as well and nothing came of it. Everytime you look over a knight is hopping by preening on his new flex. So you start moving your knights instead, for now, only it turns out if you don't start moving your pawns you can't move your bishops and rooks, so bishop and rook players are getting upset that they are struggling to enjoy the game as much: It takes longer to find a match, and even when they do it's not particularly enjoyable. But all you have to do is wait, right?

But the situation is fine. 1 hour wait-times to play a rook or bishop are entirely normal: They should fix the queues you see, and how roullettes work, class balance has nothing to do with it. You hear people complaining in the distance, errantly, about things like story but you keep your head down and focus on what's important. "Look forward to it," you hear, "8.0." You hear exciting new things they are offering pawns, like the ability to turn 18° in place. Sure, no one ever asked for it, but they're getting it and that's cool right? You've heard they're going to update the graphics on all the pieces that counts for something right? 8.0 is a long way away, but all you have to do is wait.

And they gave us this cool new feature where we can look at a game board and pick movements trying to reach checkmate: if we unlock all the pre-determined paths, we will be gifted with our pawns having little pixie wings on them. You figure you'll get those pixie wings for now - It's all the rage on the otherside of the pond, you've heard. All you have to do is wait.

People don't move pawns: in lieu of substantial difficulty people created it, somewhat unintentionally, by no pawn-runs. We're busy people, you see, and must rush through his at optimal speed. The creators need us to complete this 300 times to unlock our new relic pieces, and speed is the key-word, so if you can't no-pawn run me you're just griefing me and wasting my time. No one has moved pawns since 7.2, are you dense? Yeah, technically it's not against TOS to move a pawn, but if you do I'll know you're trolling immediately. Maybe you should just beg the dev's to make pawns worth a #)*%? Beg and beg, and beg: and then? All you have to do is wait.

Why are you wasting time? Get to waiting, you pay a sub for the priviledge after-all.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I'd like to see this with Drk Knights, Brd, MCH, Sam, Drg, Ninja, Viper and BLM dps lol

It's a specific comp where everyone has healing, carried specifically with the overhealing PLD/WAR does, given they are half the group.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

What is there to discuss? There will always be top-tier players able to do things that the overwhelming majority of the playerbase have no chance at doing. It's happened in practically every game to ever exist. ...

What the "elite" can do isn't even worth discussing outside of a "congratulations to them."

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I know, right? Why do people spend so much time watching the Olympics and talking about those athletes?

It's almost like they inspire folks to be their better selves. Because we're all human. Because we all have the same potential.

And it's dispiriting to find out that, actually, you're not needed when others give it their all. That you're just holding everyone else back. That you're replaceable.

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

And what's the issue? 99% of people can't do that

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Let's be honest you know I didn't post this in favor of any stance. I just knew that a bunch of people would start fighting and I think that's entertaining :p

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Originally Posted by Wyti

The issue is it being possible at all on week 2 of content release.
Pretty sure 99% of players haven't cleared M4S yet.

healer are already useless in most form on content, and know, in the hardest content in the game, on the second week, we are already shown that it is better to play with tanks instead.
Healers do the least damage in the game, are the most fragile role in the game, and their niche isn't even useful to the group since tank can do it + do better damage and be safer, what more do you need ?

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yeah because a highly coordinated team doing something cool is comparative to the rest of the player base. sure it is, anything is possible with enough effort. this is so cool and i commend them for doing it. i hope week one of Eden ultimate is cleared with no healers aswell, its cool to see. but you cant compare these raid teams to everyone else, that's just plain ol silly.

All I ever see is people admitting these devs basically don't know how to design an RPG anymore so they can either watch or engage in "challenge runs". You're just ignoring that this game is fundamentally broken and even creatively bankrupt at this point because it's a symptom you conveniently enjoy for whatever reason.

But challenges are formed around any given environment. I'm sure there would still be challenges if say, at least the hardest content in the game was designed around healers being necessary like tanks are.

Very cool video. The comp makes a lot of sense. Pretty strong evidence that healers need more of a GCD-based DPS kit.

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Originally Posted by alfarini

yeah because a highly coordinated team doing something cool is comparative to the rest of the player base. sure it is, anything is possible with enough effort. this is so cool and i commend them for doing it. i hope week one of Eden ultimate is cleared with no healers aswell, its cool to see. but you cant compare these raid teams to everyone else, that's just plain ol silly.

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No, I disagree. First of all, we're talking about savage, something that's supposed to be high end content. If I choose to play a healer, and then enter high end content, I would expect to be challenged on my ability to heal. And the fact that people are able to clear this content with no healers should paint a very, VERY clear picture that square is failing to do that at all. Seriously, this is supposed to be the hard content. It should literally be mathematically impossible to do it without a healer. It's not about the fact that "oh this is a case of exceptional players clearing a challenge run," it's about the fact that it's even possible for them to do that in the first place

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

playerbase incompetent, make whole role into training wheels

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thats how it works