Dawntrail is a good Story but not a Great Story. (SPOILERS)

Dawntrail is a good Story and it is better than Sormblood. It has parts that are great and parts that are bad. Wuk Lamat has a good development and if you pay attantion you see how she grows. Just read and listen to evreything in the MSQ (She is Part of the Dungeons/Trials) and you understand it.

Why is Dawntrail not a great Story?

Because the part with the succession was to short. It should have lead us to Shaaolani to meet Erenvile's Mother and get Keystones there. the 95 Dungeon should have been 97 dungeon and from there on the Start of the Alexandria part with evreything how it went down. It would have had a bigger impact on the story and for the characters.

There are like.. 5 threads right now discussing the MSQ and how the writers did a piss poor job at writing it. I dont think you are gonna find too many who agree with you..

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Originally Posted by Xellith

how the writers did a piss poor job at writing it.

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If you compare it to HW, ShB and EW its not good. If you compare ist to ARR and SB it is good and better.

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Originally Posted by Xellith

There are like.. 5 threads right now discussing the MSQ

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There only should be one thread if people wouldn't be like they are.

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Originally Posted by Xellith

I dont think you are gonna find too many who agree with you..

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I don't realy care. Just want to say how i see the Story.

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Originally Posted by Xellith

There are like.. 5 threads right now discussing the MSQ and how the writers did a piss poor job at writing it. I dont think you are gonna find too many who agree with you..

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Truth be told, the vast majority in those threads got annoyed and skipped some cutscenes, and even those who didn't were so annoyed at the story that they couldn't even tell the basic theme of the narrative.
As OP said, it is not a great story, but all the people freaking out and even trying to say people should read books are being very disingenuous, even more as they praise all other stories XIV had as the pinnacle of gaming writing while it's just a little bit above of what was given to us in Dawntrail.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

I read someone somewhere say... "it's a good story that's very poorly written".

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For some parts of the Story its true.

Personally I think it has a boring story thats badly written

Goddamn man I feel sorry for you...The Wuk Lamat tempering got you hard. I guess this is proof that love bombing works for other people I guess.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Personally I think it has a boring story thats badly written

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Not the story as a whole. Parts of it, yes. Badly written, not entirely. Some parts are too long-winded, others too short. But overall the story is good.

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Originally Posted by OMGJesuis66

Truth be told, the vast majority in those threads got annoyed and skipped some cutscenes, and even those who didn't were so annoyed at the story that they couldn't even tell the basic theme of the narrative.
As OP said, it is not a great story, but all the people freaking out and even trying to say people should read books are being very disingenuous, even more as they praise all other stories XIV had as the pinnacle of gaming writing while it's just a little bit above of what was given to us in Dawntrail.

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So now the argument it's that it's too deep for us plebs to understand?
https://i.imgur.com/l8tBCOb.gif

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Originally Posted by Mnemy

Goddamn man I feel sorry for you...The Wuk Lamat tempering got you hard. I guess this is proof that love bombing works for other people I guess.

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What tempering?

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Originally Posted by Midare

So now the argument it's that it's too deep for us plebs to understand?
https://i.imgur.com/l8tBCOb.gif

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If you see yourself as one who skipped or ignored the story, then probably yes, but i don't say that. If you pay attantion to the story then you'll probably be surpised that its actually good and not as bad as some say.

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Originally Posted by Kasasagi

Not the story as a whole. Parts of it, yes. Badly written, not entirely. Some parts are too long-winded, others too short. But overall the story is good.

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It's somewhat true that not all parts of the story were bad, but in my honest opinion, there were significantly more bad parts of the story than there were good parts.

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Originally Posted by Kasasagi

If you see yourself as one who skipped or ignored the story, then probably yes, but i don't say that. If you pay attantion to the story then you'll probably be surpised that its actually good and not as bad as some say.

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It's a very weak argument to suggest everyone who dislikes the story or parts of it is a skipper, lacks reading comprehension, or didn't pay attention. It comes off as rather arrogant if you ask me.

There are plenty of people in this forum who have gone in depth about how and why the story missed its mark with them. Maybe go and read some of the many threads that have been made about the topic and you'll see a wide range of opinions and explanations.

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Originally Posted by Aniise

It's a very weak argument to suggest everyone who dislikes the story or parts of it is a skipper, lacks reading comprehension, or didn't pay attention. It comes off as rather arrogant if you ask me.
Maybe go and read some of the many threads that have been made about the topic and you'll see a wide range of opinions and explanations.

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Maybe weak but it's also seemingly true. I have read many of the comments and many are disingenuous, openly admitting they skipped critical story moments (claiming something wasn't explained) or even claiming things like "Wuk Lamat should understand the culture of her people when they all live in Tuliyollal " even though we literally have a cutscene of her father saying she doesn't truly understand anything cause all she's ever experienced is the capital. So yeah there are some criticisms, fair, but then there are a hella lot more bad actors for the sake of.

Objectively looking at majority of the criticisms within the context of the story, MOST don't even make sense. That's a fact. There's a crap ton of subjective bias sprinkled throughout as well.

The most legitimate argument that has been made is the sound VA quality of all the ENG cast, that drops randomly at different points of the MSQ. Some parts where there's more of a yell or intense reaction sound muffled or you simply can't hear or the music is overshadowing the speech etc.

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Originally Posted by Aniise

It's a very weak argument to suggest everyone who dislikes the story or parts of it is a skipper, lacks reading comprehension, or didn't pay attention. It comes off as rather arrogant if you ask me.

There are plenty of people in this forum who have gone in depth about how and why the story missed its mark with them. Maybe go and read some of the many threads that have been made about the topic and you'll see a wide range of opinions and explanations.

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You are right, but moste people who complain about the story did indeed skip if you belive some other people said. I did read the Posts about the Story and those who are realy worth reading and considering are few. Those people i can respect their opinion on the story.

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Originally Posted by Kasasagi

If you compare it to HW, ShB and EW its not good. If you compare ist to ARR and SB it is good and better.





There only should be one thread if people wouldn't be like they are.





I don't realy care. Just want to say how i see the Story.

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Don't you dare compare this garbage to Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by Palladiamors

Don't you dare compare this garbage to Stormblood.

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I dare and do you one better. It is better then Stormblood in my opinion.

Which parts specifically did you like? Because I found problems with many aspects of the story and characterisation.

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Originally Posted by Kasasagi

If you compare it to HW, ShB and EW its not good. If you compare ist to ARR and SB it is good and better.

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I don't remember being even half as angry as I am with DT than I was after finishing ARR or SB.

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Originally Posted by Xellith

Which parts specifically did you like? Because I found problems with many aspects of the story and characterisation.

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All the Claiments i liked for diffrent reasons. The 1st part of Shaaolani i liked very much. The story in Yak T'el was good. The Pelopelo could have been shorter and with the Hanu could have been a bit longer. The Moblin part was ok. The story with the the Yokhui was good and i hope we get more. The same goes for the Story with the Mamool Ja. Alaxandria was for the most part ineresting. Living Memory and the Endless were interesting and especialy the paart with Namika.

The death of Galool Ja Ja im neutrel. I like it from the perspektiv of japanes kulture but i understend why for us it is complicated.

The character grwoth of Wuk lamat is done better then Lyse in Stormblood. You can see evreything and how and why she lerns and gets better. It could have been longer like i said in the beginning.

I liked that Koana looked, for the 1st part, to good to be true and i got the vibe he could be the real villian.

Bakool Ja Ja's Storyarc i liked. Maybe we see more of him.

Thats more or less what i liked.

Zoraal Ja was good but only as a secondery Villain.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

I don't remember being even half as angry as I am with DT than I was after finishing ARR or SB.

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I remember feeling hella whiplash in SB due to two stories not being given time to simmer at all before being sent across the sea to the next area and rinse and repeat the entire starting MSQ. I remember not giving a crap about any character but Yotsuyu or Zenos. I remember these forums grilling the MSQ for terrible pacing (and choppiness of the story) and Lyse with vitriol nonstop. DT definitely handles the two story halves FAR better than SB (pre - postMSQ patches) ever did. It's fascinating that the forums are actually defending SB MSQ and Lyse after all the shit talking that occurred back then.

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Originally Posted by Midare

So now the argument it's that it's too deep for us plebs to understand?
https://i.imgur.com/l8tBCOb.gif

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No. It is that's very shallow and you still don't understand.

I wouldn't even call it a good story. A good story wouldn't have its entire world building fall apart the moment you take a step back and really think about its inner workings. Or how characters like Wuk Lamat must have been born like yesterday and only learned about peace & tacos and nothing else. Imagine growing up in a multi-cultural city, actually developing a friendly relationship with the citizens, but having absolutely no clue how hanuhanu greet each other.

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Originally Posted by Kasasagi

The character grwoth of Wuk lamat is done better then Lyse in Stormblood. You can see evreything and how and why she lerns and gets better. It could have been longer like i said in the beginning.

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Im very curious. In which way did Wuk Lamat grow? I get she had a lot of screen time. But I didnt really see much in the way of growth.

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Originally Posted by Barachim

I wouldn't even call it a good story. A good story wouldn't have its entire world building fall apart the moment you take a step back and really think about its inner workings. Or how characters like Wuk Lamat must have been born like yesterday and only learned about peace & tacos and nothing else. Imagine growing up in a multi-cultural city, actually developing a friendly relationship with the citizens, but having absolutely no clue how hanuhanu great each other.

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it is explaind in the msq how and why wuk lamat does know so little abaout the other peopel of Tural.

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Originally Posted by Kasasagi

it is explaind in the msq how and why wuk lamat does know so little abaout the other peopel of Tural.

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That makes sense for something like the hanuhanu festival, she wouldn't understand the historical significance. But you can't tell me with a straight face she's never seen how hanuhanu greet each other, when she is constantly running around the city. Heck, she visited their festival as a child. Unless she fell on her head or grew up chained up inside her bedroom, there's no excuse how she wouldn't know a simple greeting.

The story telling is awful with dialogue frequently the same. Contradictions abound. At best, it was written for very young readers and heavy with 'tell, don't show, and do it quickly" but no rational person has attributed this as good writing.

Even the JP forums, long know for being more defensive of FF than other regions, is tearing this dialogue and story telling apart (I encourage you to use google translate and read anything with 50+ upvotes/likes, not just the mega threads). No matter how you parse things, separating the story beats from the story telling and dialogue written and cutscene editing, there is very little that withstands even basic, common sense levels of logic and what does past muster tends to require heavy amounts of supposition and reader assumptions to help it out. People have noted that you can remove the names of the characters, read the dialogue, and you'd never be able to tell any NPCs apart from on another; and I agree with this assessment.

Good on those who, as they say "dont think about it" and "dont think, just consume". Personally I find that sentiment disgusting, to turn blind eye to problems, but they say ignorance is bliss.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

I remember feeling hella whiplash in SB due to two stories not being given time to simmer at all before being sent across the sea to the next area and rinse and repeat the entire starting MSQ. I remember not giving a crap about any character but Yotsuyu or Zenos. I remember these forums grilling the MSQ for terrible pacing (and choppiness of the story) and Lyse with vitriol nonstop. DT definitely handles the two story halves FAR better than SB (pre - postMSQ patches) ever did. It's fascinating that the forums are actually defending SB MSQ and Lyse after all the shit talking that occurred back then.

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Considering review scores, I'm gonna go ahead and say thus isn't accurate. DT doesn't even have characters as compelling as the ones you mentioned, and characters are something expansions can live or die by even if other things are nonsense. SB was slow and kinda boring but it still made sense thematically. DT just throws a bunch of shit at the wall and prays you won't think too hard.

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Originally Posted by Xellith

Im very curious. In which way did Wuk Lamat grow? I get she had a lot of screen time. But I didnt really see much in the way of growth.

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The more you go thru the msq you see how she lerns on evrey part of her journey. She goes from the young "shelterd" Girl who only knew about the diffrent cultures of Tural thru tales and what she expirienced in Tuliyollal to a leader who understands her peopel. She lerns evry step of the way.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Considering review scores, I'm gonna go ahead and say thus isn't accurate. DT doesn't even have characters as compelling as the ones you mentioned, and characters are something expansions can live or die by even if other things are nonsense. SB was slow and kinda boring but it still made sense thematically. DT just throws a bunch of shit at the wall and prays you won't think too hard.

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I'd love for you to point to which claim I made being inaccurate or the sentiment being as such. Luckily for us, the forums can easily be searched and the threads linked. So please, which comment did you say was inaccurate?

MSQ being messy?
Lyse not being popular?
Villians not being liked?

Every single complaint being thrown at DT, we have an SB counterpart thread/s. Every single one.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Considering review scores, I'm gonna go ahead and say thus isn't accurate. DT doesn't even have characters as compelling as the ones you mentioned, and characters are something expansions can live or die by even if other things are nonsense. SB was slow and kinda boring but it still made sense thematically. DT just throws a bunch of shit at the wall and prays you won't think too hard.

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I would also add in agreement with Turtle that the writing (that is to say the wordy dialogue AND the way story telling was presented other than dialogue) was on point in Stormblood, even if slow and at times a wall of text, as you say.
An example of why DT is crap and SB was good is articulated well by Ankior in a post about worldbuilding and Show vs Tell, particually in reference to the field trip lectures where we are simply told what the beliefs are and largely removed from any discovery or exploration ourselves (remember that even the electors are for this occasion only, we rarely interact with anyone going about their usual day to day in DT: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...might_be_seen/

Now, back in Stormblood, we also meet different cultures and tribes, and one of them is the Undying ones in the Azim Steppe. The striking difference here is how we are exposed to information. Accompany with Gosetsu, we found two hunters fighting some beasts and one of them gets killed, later, after Gosetsu is uncomfortable with the way they disregard the body, we learn from Sadu that it doesn’t matter, because the person who died was a great warrior that will be reborn. From this we learn of their beliefs of reincarnation, that their great warriors don’t fear death. Even their names may be from a past reincarnation. This prompts Gosetsu to seek out the body, and there we sit with him as he reflects on all of this.

Gosetsu - “Pardon me. When first I heard the tales, I could not help but scoff. "Another queer tribe," I thought, "with still queerer customs." Yet having borne witness to their rites, I cannot deny there is a certain logic to it all. A samurai will die for his lord without hesitation or regret. But this is not because he delights in such sacrifice. It is because he has faith that his death will serve a higher purpose. There is an awakening in that instant, when the heart sings and the blood burns, and his soul...his soul finds peace. There is comfort in that…”

There is a similar parallel in Shadowbringers when we participate in the funeral with the Night's Blessed. Show, dont tell.

Both of these are just examples, one of which from SB, of the difference. I 100% agree with Trutledeluxe that "DT just throws a bunch of shit at the wall and prays you won't think too hard", and would add that what IS thrown at you is given no second thoughts regarding consistency or continuity because it will never be revisited, so they didn't even try.

I think it’s reasonable to think SB was the weakest link MSQ wise at the time and then have something worse come along to make you realize “Oh if this is bad then I guess SB wasn’t that bad.” It was the halcyon days and we didn’t know it.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Considering review scores, I'm gonna go ahead and say thus isn't accurate.

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Review scores from users are relatively worthless here, since they tend to come from a very specific portion of the gaming population (which both *isn't* the general FFXIV population and *isn't* the kind likely to find stories about positivity and growth their thing). Critics who reviewed both DT and ARR back in the day tend to put them very close to each other, which makes sense to me given their similar nature coupled with DT having sharpened things since the ARR days but following ShB and EW vs. following 1.0.

The thing you're responding to is also an opinion, so the concept of one thing being "better" than another literally can't be "accurate" or "inaccurate."

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DT doesn't even have characters as compelling as the ones you mentioned, and characters are something expansions can live or die by even if other things are nonsense.

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This is an opinion. What is the obsession with the negative echo chamber around here trying to tell people their opinions are wrong?

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SB was slow and kinda boring but it still made sense thematically.

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Also an opinion.

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DT just throws a bunch of shit at the wall and prays you won't think too hard.

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Ditto.

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But you can't tell me with a straight face she's never seen how hanuhanu greet each other, when she is constantly running around the city. Heck, she visited their festival as a child. Unless she fell on her head or grew up chained up inside her bedroom, there's no excuse how she wouldn't know a simple greeting.

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She only knows the hanuhanu that moved to Tuliyollal. I know in my own interactions with the various hanuhanu NPC's in the capital, I never saw any of them give the "traditional" greeting. I could easily see something like that going by the wayside among the group that moved to Tuliyollal, especially given how other aspects of hanuhanu culture have gradually receded from memory.

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(I encourage you to use google translate and read anything with 50+ upvotes/likes, not just the mega threads).

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(I encourage you to go to Youtube and poke around a bit; you'll find comments talking about the story being meaningful and impactful getting hundreds of upvotes.)

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I think it’s reasonable to think SB was the weakest link MSQ wise at the time and then have something worse come along to make you realize “Oh if this is bad then I guess SB wasn’t that bad.” It was the halcyon days and we didn’t know it.

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I'm sensing rose-colored glasses instead. People naturally tend to view the past as better than it really was. Then again, this forum has said every expansion is the worst ever when it was current, only to go back and praise them later.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

(I encourage you to use google translate and read anything with 50+ upvotes/likes, not just the mega threads).
(I encourage you to go to Youtube and poke around a bit; you'll find comments talking about the story being meaningful and impactful getting hundreds of upvotes.)

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How is this relevant?
I have no doubt there are people saying the story is impactful and meaningful. There are people here doing that (you dont have to go to Youtube for that).
There are also Youtube videos expressing frustration over the poor story with thousands of likes.

Neither of those observations (the fact that Youtube exists and there are videos for and against the DT story) change the fact that, as I stated, "Even the JP forums, long know for being more defensive of FF than other regions, is tearing this dialogue and story telling apart (I encourage you to use google translate and read anything with 50+ upvotes/likes, not just the mega threads)." Looking at anything with 50+ is just qualify volume of JP sharing the frustration (read every post if you'd like) while avoiding regarding a single mega thread as reflective of all the players.

The point being that even what is usually the more polite and defensive voices of the JP forums have expressed frustration with the DT story (which I encourage you to verify for yourself, dont just take my word), so any claim that "DT is fine because X was also bad" or that "People saying DT story is bad has no merit and should stop saying that!", appears to be ignorant and ill-informed.

For me DT was about on part with SB. Better in some ways but worse in others. Ultimately it could have been a lot better if other characters besides Wuk Lamat got more moments to really shine before the final zone. For me it was a big step down from SHB/EW but not terrible or anything. Enjoyable to go through once but I'd probably skip the cutscenes if I leveled another character through it.

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Originally Posted by Kasasagi

The more you go thru the msq you see how she lerns on evrey part of her journey. She goes from the young "shelterd" Girl who only knew about the diffrent cultures of Tural thru tales and what she expirienced in Tuliyollal to a leader who understands her peopel. She lerns evry step of the way.

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How did it change her though? She started out very naive, thinking she knew everything about her people, and wanting peace, love, and happiness for them. She finished being naive, knowing a few facts of her people, and wanting peace, love, and happiness for them. Apart from "learning of other peoples cultures", what exactly did she learn? How did these experiences shape who she became? Because from where I'm standing shes very much the same person she was before her journey. Her experiences didnt really shape her. You can almost see Koana and Wuk Lamat as two sides of the same coin. Where Koana learned to understand and accept the different cultures of Tural, Wuk Lamat didnt really learn to accept that some things need to change. She just filled in the culture gaps in her head that she already thought she had filled.

It would have been a strong moment of growth for her to throw in the towel to let Koana win the rite. Saying "I understand that you are a changed man. I believe you understand the type of leader that Tural needs. We both know that I dont have what it takes to lead a nation. My dream of being dawnservant, with my aspirations for the Turali people of peace, love and happiness are so childish. They arent a strong foundation for national policies". But no. The smart one throws in the towel.. which I dont think he would do since Wuk is a bit of an airhead. Not what Tural needs at all after his own personal growth. Tural is lucky enough that Wuk Lamat recognises this, so she offers him the job of Head of Resolve.

It just feels so.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXWmgX-V02k

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Originally Posted by Xellith

Tural is lucky enough that Wuk Lamat recognises this, so she offers him the job of Head of Resolve.

It just feels so.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXWmgX-V02k

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And here it is. You say it yourself. But she didn'T offer him the position of Head of Resolve out of nowhere. She had it planned ahead of time.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

I'm sensing rose-colored glasses instead. People naturally tend to view the past as better than it really was. Then again, this forum has said every expansion is the worst ever when it was current, only to go back and praise them later.

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My bad for speaking is if for everyone, but big disagree. I can still see the negatives that SB had, I just realize that it wasn’t the worst. I loved Zenos, Fordola, Yatsuyu, Alisaie becoming part of the crew more, and I felt nothing towards Lyse. Comparing this to DT, I feel nothing for most of these new character, and straight up hate Wuk lamat. I've also personally realized SB wasn’t the worst for the last two expansions combat wise, not story wise tho because I think shb and endwalker were peak for ffxiv. So for me it’s the halcyon days, I didn’t know how good I had it at the time.

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Originally Posted by Ketojan

My bad for speaking is if for everyone, but big disagree. I can still see the negatives that SB had, I just realize that it wasn’t the worst. I loved Zenos, Fordola, Yatsuyu, Alisaie becoming part of the crew more, and I felt nothing towards Lyse. Comparing this to DT, I feel nothing for most of these new character, and straight up hate Wuk lamat. I've also personally realized SB wasn’t the worst for the last two expansions combat wise, not story wise tho because I think shb and endwalker were peak for ffxiv. So for me it’s the halcyon days, I didn’t know how good I had it at the time.

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All that you said is a personal opinion. Zenos, Fordola, Yotsuyu to me were vastly irrelevant in SB.
And I would argue almost every single character in DT is better represented and more human than even the Scions, which are with us 99% of the time.
But that's my opinion, soooo... We both know ours means as much as nothing.

Isn’t this forum post a personal opinion? Or are you and OP stating a fact? Also do you deny that Thancreds story of grief and how he handled that with Ryne in SHB was not human? Because while I didn’t care for the man, it was written in a way that made me actually feel something for him. Or do we not care because it’s my opinion?