Feedback: FIX YOUR NETCODE!

It seems that Reddit and some influencers have asked posters to make new threads on the forums to "get the developers' attention", so I will do the same.

Across English and Japanese threads, there has been a main point of criticism regarding hitboxes in the first boss of Strayborough Deadwalk and the M2 raid. In particular, the "bullet hell"-style mechanic whereby particles fill the stage in a random pattern and players must dodge. Because it is random, they are not telegraphed and your "snapshot" area is invisible; and because they are numerous and fast, they cannot be easily dodged. This results in a greatly increased chance of being "clipped" by the "snapshot" from the particle than when we last saw this mechanic in the Nier raids. This is likely the reason why people are saying raids are "too difficult".

We have seen many other examples of "snapshotting" having a negative effect when a new mechanic is designed without mitigating it. See the Fall Guys thread for all the funny gifs of people missing yet being hit. "Clipping" does exist, and you would otherwise agree if this weren't July 2024.

Many people have lauded the new raids for "increasing the difficulty", but Square Enix has not improved the engine to accommodate. I am asking Square Enix Holdings Co., Ltd. to budget more staff to improve the netcode or reprogram hit detection accordingly. Specifically, you should not have to move out of a mechanic more than one second before it "snapshots". When you have 20 particles on the stage in a random pattern, the time it currently takes to avoid the "snapshot" is far too long. This was not as noticeable in Endwalker because content was easier and didn't have "bullet hell". I am not saying the mechanic needs to be removed, but either hit boxes or netcode needs to be fixed. The quickest fix would be to simply shrink the hit boxes of the particles. The best fix would be to see what the community has done to mitigate "clipping" and integrate that as an official patch.

Note regarding ping: The lowest-ping players in the world (JP) are having the same issues:
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/505795

Note regarding "skill issue": a video game requires two things: a controller and video output. The controls are supposed to match the video output. This is called responsiveness. If the video is not responsive to the controls, then it has failed to perform its duty as a video game. Countless video games have been criticized for this issue over the past 40 years. Final Fantasy XIV is not a magical exception to game design. Yes, you can use "skill" (wasting time) to beat a bad game, but it is still a bad game. There is no excuse for a game which cannot match controls to video output.

Feedback: LEARN HOW TO DODGE!

It seems that Reddit and some influencers have asked posters to make new threads on the forums to "get the players' attention", so I will do the same.

Across English and Japanese threads, there has been a main point of criticism regarding hitboxes in the first boss of Strayborough Deadwalk and the M2 raid. In particular, the "bullet hell"-style mechanic whereby particles fill the stage in a predictable pattern and players must dodge. Because it is predictable, they are telegraphed; and because they are somewhat numerous and not too fast, they cannot be trivially dodged. This results in a greatly increased chance of being hit. This is likely the reason why people are saying raids are "too difficult".

We have seen many other examples of snapshotting having a negative effect when players who have played for 10 years without understanding how the game works encounter it. See the Fall Guys thread for all the funny gifs of people getting hit and being confused. People being subpar in this game exist, and you would otherwise agree if this weren't July 2024.

Many people have lauded the new raids for increasing the difficulty, but the playerbase has not actually tried learning the game to accommodate. I am asking the player base to budget more time to improve their skills or complain less on the forums. Specifically, you should have to move out of mechanics. When you have 20 particles on the stage in a pattern, the player should use pattern recognition to dodge it. This was not as noticeable in Endwalker because content was easier, even though many players are complaining about M2 despite the mechanic being identical to Barbaricca which was required by the MSQ. I am not saying the mechanic needs to be removed, because the issue is with the players. The quickest fix would be to improve at the game. The best fix would be to improve at the game and stop complaining.

Note regarding ping: it's a non-issue.

Note regarding "skill issue": I don't have one.

I do agree that they need to make the netcode better.

I don't think you should post this in the "Dungeon Section"

Also "skill" (wasting time) ? Since when ? Or maybe I misunderstood what you mean there.

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Originally Posted by VioletCatastrophe

Deflection

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As I said, Final Fantasy XIV is not exempt from the basic principles of video games which have existed for over 40 years. I understand that people are fans of the game, as am I, but that doesn't change decades of solid design principles. You are asking FFXIV to be so beyond reproach that every single principle of good game design should be discarded just for this game.

If "clipping" was a classic gaming mainstay, then video games never would have become popular. This singular issue was enough to separate the good games from the bad for many years. Even Yoshida agreed that it is be an issue. You are alone in denying it.

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Originally Posted by Kiurt

I don't think you should post this in the "Dungeon Section"

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The forums are being raided by Reddit which is where there are a flood of new threads here. Also, the most nagging issue is in Strayborough Deadwalk as previously mentioned. Unlike M2, there is no AOE visible on the dolls, which means you could "dodge" it but get hit even without snapshotting being a factor--which, in my experience, has definitely been a factor.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

If "clipping" was a classic gaming mainstay, then video games never would have become popular. This singular issue was enough to separate the good games from the bad for many years. Even Yoshida agreed that it is be an issue. You are alone in denying it.

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I opened the link and read the interview, but I am kinda new to this, so not sure what you mean with "clipping" or which section of the interview you referred to (the formatting of the site isn't great so can't blame you there). Could you elaborate a bit as I want to understand the issue better?

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

The forums are being raided by Reddit which is where there are a flood of new threads here.

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No. The FF14 devs only listen to the forums. The forums are inhabited by and large by some of the most entitled and awful players in this game. I don't use reddit, I'm just tired of my voice, of the voice of basically the entire damn playerbase being overshadowed by the loudest and whiniest voices. If this is where I have to go to be heard then I go here. The healer strike was bad enough, but I didn't make an account for that because I genuinely didn't see that going anywhere. This topic on the other hand is extremely important to me.

I've had to deal with absolutely brainmelting trivial content when doing non-endgame stuff for two expansions. I've seen jobs gradually have identity and complexity eroded from them. I've seen the fruits of this forum's complaints manifest in the degradation of this game for multiple expansions. I've had friends quit because they just can't deal with another expansion of falling asleep while playing. These aren't toxic turbo hardcore players either. These are players who play for the MSQ and normal raids and alliance raids and that's it.

We FINALLY have a step in the right direction and we have the forums complaining and demanding SE backpedal. So I'm finally speaking up. You aren't being raided. Your expansions worth of monopoly over getting to say how the game goes is ending.

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Originally Posted by VioletCatastrophe

No. The FF14 devs only listen to the forums. The forums are inhabited by and large by some of the most entitled and awful players in this game. I don't use reddit, I'm just tired of my voice, of the voice of basically the entire damn playerbase being overshadowed by the loudest and whiniest voices. If this is where I have to go to be heard then I go here. The healer strike was bad enough, but I didn't make an account for that because I genuinely didn't see that going anywhere. This topic on the other hand is extremely important to me.

I've had to deal with absolutely brainmelting trivial content when doing non-endgame stuff for two expansions. I've seen jobs gradually have identity and complexity eroded from them. I've seen the fruits of this forum's complaints manifest in the degradation of this game for multiple expansions. I've had friends quit because they just can't deal with another expansion of falling asleep while playing. These aren't toxic turbo hardcore players either. These are players who play for the MSQ and normal raids and alliance raids and that's it.

We FINALLY have a step in the right direction and we have the forums complaining and demanding SE backpedal. So I'm finally speaking up. You aren't being raided. Your expansions worth of monopoly over getting to say how the game goes is ending.

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I mean, in this case, they're not talking about boss fights design. Just that they should improve their overall netcode.

Just to take the Fall Guys event : People thinking they're first and losing to someone that was behind them on their screen.

Also the bullet-hell mechanic, in itself isn't a problem if you're focusing on only dodging. If you're also focusing on uptime, and want to dodge when it gets nearby, well, sometimes it works, sometimes you get hit from 2 meters away and sometimes you can nearly hug the moving projectile. Is it gamebreaking ? Can be depending on how Savage will be. Is it annoying ? Yes. It was already an issue with the red balls in the Nier raid.

But nothing in OP post was about the "new" fights design and how impossible it is to do them.

Don't stone me on the accuracy about this, but when you see orbs flying around it is something like this

https://i.imgur.com/V8R8ech.jpeg

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Originally Posted by Smoozie

I opened the link and read the interview, but I am kinda new to this, so not sure what you mean with "clipping" or which section of the interview you referred to (the formatting of the site isn't great so can't blame you there). Could you elaborate a bit as I want to understand the issue better?

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As Yoshida put it: "Every time you take an action in the game, the game will communicate with the server, check for cheating and come back afterwards. This creates a delay that an offline game doesn't have, since there's no need to check on the Internet."

FFXIV has some designs to mitigate this. One is called "snapshots". If you're in the telegraph (orange circle) zone when the enemy's cast bar stops casting, you are "snapshotted" to that zone. Then the boss animation plays, sometimes a few seconds afterwards. So it doesn't matter what the boss does, if you were in the AOE, you're hit even if you're not visibly "hit" by a boss animation.

This design works when telegraphs exist, a cast bar exists, and there is ample time to move. If there are no telegraphs or cast bars, such as in the Fall Guys event, people expect to be hit by the animation instead, leading to a few seconds' miscalculation per above. Or, as in the new raids: there are telegraphs but not a cast bar. If mechanics are too fast, you have to move in and out of AOEs quickly without time to deliberate the "snapshot" period per the cast bar, thus the Fall Guys effect.

Furthermore, there's an even worse issue when considering the lag between your movement and the server recognizing it. You move a second before the server recognizes it. This means that, even if you dodge the "snapshot", you can still be caught in the snapshot, called "clipping". When mechanics are fast, like the new raids, this can happen a lot more often. It's usually found with high ping, but even Japanese players are having an issue with the new content because of faster and overlapping mechanics.

Any and all design issues with the new content can be fixed with better netcode. The challenge would be seen as fair (improvable with practice) rather than unfair (random and not responsive to skill) with zero change to the fight design itself. Otherwise, changes to design would have to be made to reduce the complexity of mechanics. As a certain other poster said, we have had easy content for "two expansions" (actually longer) because of this. For Dawntrail, the dev team decided to remove their old precautions. The above problems are a result.

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Originally Posted by Smoozie

I opened the link and read the interview, but I am kinda new to this, so not sure what you mean with "clipping" or which section of the interview you referred to (the formatting of the site isn't great so can't blame you there). Could you elaborate a bit as I want to understand the issue better?

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In typical XIV parlance, "clipping" refers to potential uptime (the amount of time for which you could be using an action, especially a spell or weaponskill) lost.

One of the most significant reasons for this is that whereas other games compensate your internal skill delays for whatever time is taken to verify server-side that your skill activation is legit, XIV does not. This means your roundtrip ping is added to the time after using a skill for which you cannot use another.

For GCDs, this is mitigated somewhat, but oGCDs are not. Therefore, a low-ping player can potentially triple-weave where a moderate-ping player cannot quite even double-weave without losing uptime.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

Furthermore, there's an even worse issue when considering the lag between your movement and the server recognizing it. You move a second before the server recognizes it. This means that, even if you dodge the "snapshot", you can still be caught in the snapshot, called "clipping". When mechanics are fast, like the new raids, this can happen a lot more often. It's usually found with high ping, but even Japanese players are having an issue with the new content because of faster and overlapping mechanics.

Any and all design issues with the new content can be fixed with better netcode. The challenge would be seen as fair (improvable with practice) rather than unfair (random and not responsive to skill) with zero change to the fight design itself. Otherwise, changes to design would have to be made to reduce the complexity of mechanics. As a certain other poster said, we have had easy content for "two expansions" (actually longer) because of this. For Dawntrail, the dev team decided to remove their old precautions. The above problems are a result.

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You're conflating two separate things. The perceived rise in difficulty isn't because the server's response time to player input is too high - FFXIV has always had this issue. Even a 0.5 second delay is not going to make a difference fundamentally - if you are late to respond to a mechanic, you're going to get hit by it. That's how they all work. The difference in the case of DT content is that enemies will telegraph their attacks in ways we aren't used to seeing. I'm not even sure what design issues you're talking about with the new content, outside of the usual FFXIV snapshotting.

I agree with the sentiment behind this post, I'm just unsure that anyone who is asking for this is in network engineering or does back-end of any kind because if they were, they'd know it's likely a monumental ask that would require rewriting most of the game. If it's at all possible, I would love to see the FFXIV experience improved by having less latency and more responsiveness. It's not a likely prospect though so it might be worth taking the time to understand how to make the most of server ticks and snapshotting. Pretend you're a Time Mage or something

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Originally Posted by Arohk

Don't stone me on the accuracy about this, but when you see orbs flying around it is something like this

https://i.imgur.com/V8R8ech.jpeg

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This is how it feels in Strayborough, yeah. Those goddamn poppets.

I play with 150-200 ms roughly from south america, so any improvement to the Netcode is a win

Untill the SA data center comes I will stick to using the network... of cousin Alex

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

As Yoshida put it: "Every time you take an action in the game, the game will communicate with the server, check for cheating and come back afterwards. This creates a delay that an offline game doesn't have, since there's no need to check on the Internet."

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Not gonna lie, I laughed out loud when I read that. Because guess what, all MMORPGs work the same way. And yes, obviously it creates a delay (which can lead to horrendous pings - WoW's WOTLK launch says hi).

But that doesn't change the fact that FFXIV's netcode is garbage. Because of it, we get snapshotting, animation locks, animation queues, slidecasts and other stuff that has absolutely no business being in a 2024 MMORPG (or any game for that matter). WoW's client did that way better 10 years prior to 2.0 release.
I don't know whether it was because the devs had little experience in designing that stuff, or whether because they used a commercial protocol that wasn't designed for gaming in mind, but they absolutely need to change that. Problem is, they can't.

Some people have NEVER played on ps3 and it shows. Please never complain unless you played this game on ps3 where you had to leave every aoe 3 seconds before to not be hit. Ever since nothing has been a problem.

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Originally Posted by TDawnstar

Not gonna lie, I laughed out loud when I read that. Because guess what, all MMORPGs work the same way.

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They don't, though. There are differences, for instance, between how BDO, Aion, B&S, Tera, and the like handled these verifications and the uptime costs, errors, or other artifacts that might come from it.

Having to verify the feasibility of an action that the client requests is pretty much universally important and therefore done, yes (though, even doing so did not prevent speed-hacking in parts of ARR and HW, where some BLM logs showed casts going off far faster than was possible with available Spell Speed and Wolf's Den and later The Feast would see the occasional player moving at 200+% speed). HOW they do so, though, and at what costs, is not. Just like various multiplayer shooter games have their different ways of handling such things, so do MMOs.

works on my machine

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Originally Posted by Mooserocka33

Some people have NEVER played on ps3 and it shows. Please never complain unless you played this game on ps3 where you had to leave every aoe 3 seconds before to not be hit. Ever since nothing has been a problem.

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Nah, I don't think someone needs to have experienced something worse to have a valid complaint.

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Originally Posted by Raraka

I play with 150-200 ms roughly from south america, so any improvement to the Netcode is a win

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Seconding that. While it is perfectly possible to complete every piece of content in the game, the netcode issues force you to adjust in ways that are less than intuitive.

Some examples:

Mechanics that require you to touch another player to pass a debuff, the popularly called "rots", require you to purposefully stay with the player for at least a whole GCD, to ensure that debuff has been passed. Examples of this are the Nisi passes in TEA, Hello World debuff passes in TOP, and rot passes in P4S.

Mechanics that require you to be in a specific position in relation to another player + be moving can fail simply because the difference between the position you see in your screen is completely different than what your server registers. Examples of this are the Limit Cut in TEA and Grand Octet in UCOB.

Mechanics that rely heavily on timing cues to register the position of an AoE also suffer from having a significant difference between what you see on your screen. For example, Thordan's Earthquakes in DSR.

All of these mechanics are perfectly doable. However, you have to consciously adapt to the server-client communication issues. In some cases, the solution is ignoring visual and sound cues and using your own GCDs to measure when you have to move, for example, which is somewhat less intuitive.

If you play PVP, these issues compound, since PVP is not as predictable as PVE encounters. I think anyone who played with long enough has been through a situation where you put your guard up, your ability is spent, but you get hit anyway because the server registered your adversary's input before yours.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

In typical XIV parlance, "clipping" refers to potential uptime (the amount of time for which you could be using an action, especially a spell or weaponskill) lost.

One of the most significant reasons for this is that whereas other games compensate your internal skill delays for whatever time is taken to verify server-side that your skill activation is legit, XIV does not. This means your roundtrip ping is added to the time after using a skill for which you cannot use another.

For GCDs, this is mitigated somewhat, but oGCDs are not. Therefore, a low-ping player can potentially triple-weave where a moderate-ping player cannot quite even double-weave without losing uptime.

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There is skill clipping and there is hitbox clipping. They both exist since all races have the same hitbox regardless of size. This is where my confusion over what you were saying because of the context of the rest of the post.
It is 100% impossible to get a triple weave with 0 clip without 3rd party tools. The only people who can triple weave without clipping are people using 3rd party tools. the reason is below.
Every Ogcd is given a minimum amount of time b4 the next one can be triggered essentially giving the netcode time to work and allowing players to plan what they are gunna do based on that information. it is part of the equation to try and create balance amongst dps output so that low ping players aren't putting out more damage, and high ping players aren't being banned from partyfinder.. If you have 0 ping(not feasibly possible), or similitude 0 ping through a 3rd party tool there is enough time to fit 3 in. This is because the intention is for double weaving so this extra time allows for above average ping players to still double weave. It requires a rather high amount of ping to not be able to double weave without clipping. this is made worse with bad ping that takes longer to register the entry late thus preventing your from getting a second weave. They recently changed the way the timer on pots, to allow for double weaving with pots, because previously they had wanted to restrict the pots to taking up a whole window. Something that would be in the way of doing a modern rotation on some jobs. This is not bad net code or unexpected. it is an intentional design to try and create a fair playing field between low and higher ping individuals. I used to play on country internet, and while my ping was awful I could still, just barely double weave without clipping 95% of the time. Dodging mechanics on the other hand was very challenging. This has no relationship to the snapshots of mechanics in the game and weave clipping, except that both them are effected by the players ping. Which exists in every mmo.

This is not to say there isn't an issue with snapshotting in this game, cause there is. it just has nothing to do with skill clipping.

And when the particles start to stop and move randomly it becomes a fucking nightmare.

I have an avarage of 12ms and that happened three times in a row where the game was full responsive before getting that shit.

Side note, it seemed not to be an issue related to a spike on my connection since the ping was normal (12ms).
Ot last until the end of the dungeon where the effect were more pronounced during the first fight.

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

This is not to say there isn't an issue with snapshotting in this game, cause there is. it just has nothing to do with skill clipping.

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Yep, my bad. I had never before heard hitbox "clipping" used at any meaning more than "hitbox overlapped with hurtbox, therefore counting as a hit". It doesn't strictly mean an 'unintuitive" or "unfair" hit taken, just... a hit. When complained of, that's usually from an AoE bearing player or unit moving across another player's hitbox, but at that point the specific term carries no specific use or value; you may as well just say "hit".

I'd had the thread opened for a while before responding and forgot to scroll back up first. My apologies.

Tangent:

That said, for a near-zero ping 2.5s GCD player to be unable to triple weave would mean that the average ICD of the skills used across that global is above 6.2 seconds. Non-movement animations with such high ICDs have been increasingly pruned from the game, pushed towards a more standard 0.5s (+ rtp), so it seems unlikely that a 2.5s player would necessarily need a 3rd party tool to do so. When playing on JP servers, JP friends regularly reported that they could triple-weave (and not merely mudras, which briefly had an especially low ICD) without drifting their GCD whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Yep, my bad. I had never before heard hitbox "clipping" used at any meaning more than "hitbox overlapped with hurtbox, therefore counting as a hit". It doesn't strictly mean an 'unintuitive" or "unfair" hit taken, just... a hit. When complained of, that's usually from an AoE bearing player or unit moving across another player's hitbox, but at that point the specific term carries no specific use or value; you may as well just say "hit".

I'd had the thread opened for a while before responding and forgot to scroll back up first. My apologies.

Tangent:

That said, for a near-zero ping 2.5s GCD player to be unable to triple weave would mean that the average ICD of the skills used across that global is above 6.2 seconds. Non-movement animations with such high ICDs have been increasingly pruned from the game, pushed towards a more standard 0.5s (+ rtp), so it seems unlikely that a 2.5s player would necessarily need a 3rd party tool to do so. When playing on JP servers, JP friends regularly reported that they could triple-weave (and not merely mudras, which briefly had an especially low ICD) without drifting their GCD whatsoever.

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What I ment by my original statement, is not guarantee consistency/every weave can be triple weaved. which is generally what u want out of a rotation cause u don't wanna risk a drift causing u to miss a skill at a phase change.
In a live letter once upon a time it was stated that everyone under a certain amount of ping should have the same rotation by the games design. It' s been forever I do not remember which live letter. The intentions in the design are to limit it to double weaving. However if they make those restrictions too harsh, it is harder for players with bad ping to double weave. This does leave spare time for triple weaving to be possible on extremely good ping. However. Animation locks are also built into skill, with different skills having different animation locks and as per usual with 14 server tics also come into play. So not every skill combo has the ability to achieve a triple weave under perfect conditions. This could have changed with DT no clue I'm under the assumption it is the same. Even on a certain website that people use to compile fight information, there are very few true non clipping triple weaves recorded, even on the JP servers, because most of them still cause a barely noticeable clip. Anything with excessive non clipping triple weaving is flagged and reviewed. allegedly through testing with various "consistent" pings, it can only be guaranteed with 0 ping/3rd party tool that simulates it. The rest of it is luck and can not be done with 100% guarantee each and every time. So it is possible to do a triple weave successfully if you have amazingly good ping, but not enough to be able to guarantee it will happen each and every time without 3rd party tools to lock it. I think its somewhere around 20-40 to have a chance of a non clipping triple weave.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

They don't, though. There are differences, for instance, between how BDO, Aion, B&S, Tera, and the like handled these verifications and the uptime costs, errors, or other artifacts that might come from it.

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Re-read YoshiP's answer. He was comparing a single-player game where everything goes on your device vs an MMO where the information travels to the server and back and is checked.
Also, I like how you left out WoW, which has a much more reactive netcode despite being 10 years older than ARR. :)

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Having to verify the feasibility of an action that the client requests is pretty much universally important

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Of course, it's important, no one is arguing about that. The problem is that SE's specific netcode introduces visible latency in the exchange between the client and the server, and therefore, when an attack lands, you may see yourself as outside of it and still inside of it server-side. And when you move, you are still standing still and casting for the server, hence slidecasting. That is a problem that is unique to FFXIV and most other MMOs handle it just fine.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Just like various multiplayer shooter games have their different ways of handling such things, so do MMOs.

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Shooters are a different beast, you cannot afford full server authority in an FPS because the generated latency would be too great. Which is why the client is given quite a bit of leeway, and that's how we get all the "wonderful" stuff that hackers and cheaters abuse.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

Don't stone me on the accuracy about this, but when you see orbs flying around it is something like this

https://i.imgur.com/V8R8ech.jpeg

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This is actually correct. In any bullet hell mechanics in this game assume that the actual hitbox is one pace in front of it. This is because of a combination of ping and snapshot, but it is always consistently in front of the actual bullet itself. You can even assume you can run through bullets from sideways to dodge it.

I wonder if this netcode is also one of the reason why I keep mashing my E button to make sure my ability to go off. When a single press don't work and you wonder "Why did my tactician/bloodbath/second wind didn't go off?"

I feel like you gain alot more responsiveness on a controller over mouse and keyboard and it kinda shows.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

Don't stone me on the accuracy about this, but when you see orbs flying around it is something like this

https://i.imgur.com/V8R8ech.jpeg

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I think it's more like this -


https://i.imgur.com/3wBmtJo.png

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Originally Posted by Jokerz_93

And when the particles start to stop and move randomly it becomes a fucking nightmare.

I have an avarage of 12ms and that happened three times in a row where the game was full responsive before getting that shit.

Side note, it seemed not to be an issue related to a spike on my connection since the ping was normal (12ms).
Ot last until the end of the dungeon where the effect were more pronounced during the first fight.

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Connection quality and latency are separate things. You can have low latency and lots of packet loss, or high latency and a very stable connection, or any combination of the two.

This has nothing to do with the game's 'netcode'. I recommend investigating your routing to the server, or the quality of your wireless environment if you're playing on something like wi-fi.

The problem with Strayborough 1 is not netcode. It's not difficulty. (I have never seen it wipe). It's just not fun. Nier was fun. M2N's been fun. Leonogg is just a bad fight. Having good netcode won't make it fun.

The code they need to fix is the clipping/ unresponsiveness of skills for people with high ping.

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Originally Posted by Mlem

The problem with Strayborough 1 is not netcode. It's not difficulty. (I have never seen it wipe). It's just not fun. Nier was fun. M2N's been fun. Leonogg is just a bad fight. Having good netcode won't make it fun.

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I find it fun :D

Not sure if it's possible for them to improve the netcode like people seem to desire. Though if it did, it may also end up messing up a lot of players that are used to how aoes and getting hit or not hit works atm. Like 10 years of being used to how it works suddenly getting changed. Not sure if that's worth doing, if it's even possible.

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Originally Posted by Chyro

I find it fun :D

Not sure if it's possible for them to improve the netcode like people seem to desire. Though if it did, it may also end up messing up a lot of players that are used to how aoes and getting hit or not hit works atm. Like 10 years of being used to how it works suddenly getting changed. Not sure if that's worth doing, if it's even possible.

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It is possible. Using the same solution the third-party tools use, which is subtracting your latency from animation locks, is very within the realm of possibilities. A bit more difficult to implement in the case of server side stuff, I imagine, but very much possible.

As for "people being used to it", it's not an argument. Get used to the new stuff. If you move to a place with different latency, you need to get used to it. If your job gets reworked and you get a different rotation, you need to get used to it. People's inability to adapt should not be an argument to not make improvements to the game.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

Don't stone me on the accuracy about this, but when you see orbs flying around it is something like this

https://i.imgur.com/V8R8ech.jpeg

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Honestly, that's basically it. It's surprising that people are figuring out how jank mechanics like that are despite it being the case since ARR with things like the clouds in WoD. It's funny too, because they even brought back those same exact clouds in e9(s) and they worked the exactly same way where you'd stand like 2 or 3 ft in front of them to slow them. They were even overly used in the Nier raids with all of the orbs that Yoko Taro loves in his games. It's also probably why so many people eat dirt in those raids, because they don't understand just how far out the hitbox actually extends compared to how it appears visually.

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Originally Posted by TDawnstar

Re-read YoshiP's answer. He was comparing a single-player game where everything goes on your device vs an MMO where the information travels to the server and back and is checked.

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I wasn't referring to Yoshida's answer, but to XIV's handling of a common issue -- per the context in which and intent for which the quote was mentioned. That every MMO has the same fundamental problem does not mean that, as you put it, "all MMORPGs work the same way". They don't, and those differences have different compromises and net losses. XIV's way of handling server checks is especially poor.

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Also, I like how you left out WoW, which has a much more reactive netcode despite being 10 years older than ARR. :)

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...Because my interest was in obvious differences in handling and types of artifacts/errors. They're a whole lot more noticeable in games with far shorter minimum internal cooldowns.

I'm not sure why you're trying to make my response out as a cherrypicked defense of XIV; I merely pointed out that the HOW by which MMOs handle this shared problem is important, and that XIV's way of handling it is sub-standard in how it impacts the player experience.

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Of course, it's important, no one is arguing about that.

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Nor did I. You literally cut the quote before "yes" (my agreeing with you) and its main point (that despite this, games handle things in different ways).

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Shooters are a different beast, you cannot afford full server authority in an FPS because the generated latency would be too great. Which is why the client is given quite a bit of leeway, and that's how we get all the "wonderful" stuff that hackers and cheaters abuse.

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Neither can you in a PvP-centric action MMO with ICDs as short as, say, 60 ms, tbf. And despite XIV's uptime-crunching way of handling action verification, it's still had cases whereby it could obviously be hacked (see early Wolf's Den / Feast matches, with people moving and casting at triple speed and shooting through cover).

As it relates to shooters, moreover, XIV's case of projectile hitboxes not being where they appear, moreover, is similarly mostly a matter of (lacking) client-side predictive animation (too much, and corrections are jarring; too little, and the constant disconnect is likewise jarring).