The old Monk rotation is back

From the patch notes:

The following adjustments have been made to Raptor's Fury and Coeurl's Fury:

Maximum stacks of Raptor's Fury have been reduced from 2 to 1.
Maximum stacks of Coeurl's Fury have been reduced from 3 to 2.

In accordance with this change, the display of the Beast Chakra Gauge has been adjusted.

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...ad4c636c9bd44e

I mean I was ready to adjust to the new flow, but I'm not gonna say no to retaining the old muscle memory.

Neat.

Does True Strike being stronger than Snap Punch change anything at lower levels?

I had put off trying to get the hang of the new rotation... glad I waited.

That's dumb

Thank frick'n god.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

That's dumb

---

they said in no uncertain terms that monk's core rotation in Dawntrail wasn't going to change. They messed up, and they're fixing it.

The rotation as it was before the adjustment took 36 GCDs to loop back around into itself, or more than 2 minutes. This is a good change.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wereotter

they said in no uncertain terms that monk's core rotation in Dawntrail wasn't going to change. They messed up, and they're fixing it.

The rotation as it was before the adjustment took 36 GCDs to loop back around into itself, or more than 2 minutes. This is a good change.

---

It took 12 chains to loop. And did make the rotation more interesting, now you can easily just reduce it back to the 123-123-123-123 Ad nauseam rotation.

And they gotta look for ways to move away from that 2min pattern <.<

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

It took 12 chains to loop. And did make the rotation more interesting.

And they gotta look for ways to move away from that 2min pattern <.<

---

It's bad job design to have only one job that doesn't fit the mold of the two minute timer that the developers have doubled down on this expansion. If you want monk to be played even less than it is now, advocate for it to be that one job that doesn't burst when everyone else is.

Also 12 loops = 36 GCDs that's exactly what I said. Though I'll admit I mathed it wrong, it doesn't take 2 minutes, it takes 72 seconds with a 2 second GCD which means the rotation will never loop as it was if you're using perfect balance when riddle of fire comes back up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by UNDEAD10000

After reading 7.01 patch notes and the 6.x monk is still not back.

---

Mechanically it is. The dots/buffs lined up into a 1-1-2 rotation like the orbs does... now...

I believe they speak of optimal drift, related to Demolish dot drifting for alignment. Correct me if I got the terminology wrong.

I hope this feels better to play now and more satisfying. I got used to the new rotation and it worked well as long i did not use perfect balance. Perfect balance made me trip half the time and i lost track of boss attacks or screwed up the opening of the Nadi i needed.
Over all i had a lot of moments where i needed 1-3 sec to reset my orientation, for me its just one class mechanic to much to follow. Respect to everyone that can play this class at max efficiency atm.

Please someone explain to me what the point of Monks AoE rotation is now?
I was hoping 7.01 would fix the AoE's in a different way.

As far as I understand Monks single target rotation is actually pretty complex with stances and stacks of fury management, but when it comes to the AoE's all you do is essentially:
Perfect Balance, AoE 1-2-3, Phoenix > repeat until you die of boredom.

Like, there's no way to get stacks of fury from any of your AoE moves at all, and they just buffed AoE's directly with 7.01???
Why not instead give the AoE's the fury buff from Demolish, Twin snakes and Dragon Kick instead of directly just giving a potency buff?
That way during a dungeon pull you actually have something to do and not just sit on your stacks of fury because AoE's don't use them.

I actually enjoy monks single target rotation alot with the fury management, but theres really no point in using Dragon Kick, Twin Snakes or Demolish when doing dungeon pulls.

Maybe I'm missing something, I'm not an endgame raider chasing the 1%, but this feels like a blatant oversight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

It took 12 chains to loop. And did make the rotation more interesting, now you can easily just reduce it back to the 123-123-123-123 Ad nauseam rotation.

And they gotta look for ways to move away from that 2min pattern <.<

---

All things being equal, 2-3-4 Dawntrail Monk with formless Dragon Kick giving you a fury ball also meant that you'd basically ride the flank for ages so this at least makes what few positionals we have left have a little more influence on how we play.

I like the Change with the fury system don't feel so tedious now. However unless my brain is just dumb, the potency changes seem odd to me. Twins snakes and demolish(rear) have the same 420. Yet pouncing coeurl (flank + fury 520) is weaker then raising raptor(Fury 540), feel odd to me that the 3rd ws in the combo is either same or weaker potency. I know in end we will do 2 Pouncing to 1 demolisher and alternating the 1+2 ws, overall it prolly just make sense dps wise. but looking at it made me question it.

Let's be honest here, the 2 minute meta has nothing to do with this. Every 2 minutes you do things outside your standard rotation (Fire's Reply, 2 PB windows and either Wind's Reply or Opo-Opo), The Odd minutes, you still have the PB window and Fire's Reply, you then have guaranteed 2 Opo-Opo forms, which leaves 3 GCDs for you to rotate through. These extra GCDs are replaced by Wind's Reply when it lines up. With that said, the change only affects the periods in between the RoF phases.

Going back to 112, in my opinion is bad. 2 weeks really isn't enough tome for people to adapt to a new rotation flow, especially since it has been the same for 10 years. Now, I understand that too many Pouncing Coeurls in a row was an issue, which is fine, however, they should have made Raptor the 3 rotation instead, making it a 132. And no, Monk doesn't have a '36 GCD rotation'. It is getting interrupted by RoF before you even complete a loop, so thinking about it like that is stupid.

As was evident here, I was looking forward to getting to know Monk's new rotation and having a different flow, where the underpinning knowledge was the same. This was a bad move in my opinion.

Yeah, it was too hasty of another rework for monk. Should have let it stay past the first savage end then see from there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wereotter

It's bad job design to have only one job that doesn't fit the mold of the two minute timer that the developers have doubled down on this expansion. If you want monk to be played even less than it is now, advocate for it to be that one job that doesn't burst when everyone else is.

Also 12 loops = 36 GCDs that's exactly what I said. Though I'll admit I mathed it wrong, it doesn't take 2 minutes, it takes 72 seconds with a 2 second GCD which means the rotation will never loop as it was if you're using perfect balance when riddle of fire comes back up.

---

I'm confused. Are MNK's filler GCDs supposed to perfectly align to a 2-minute rotation? I thought the point of PB was you could interrupt the combos at any time to deal the big burst before returning to the standard rotation, with the new Fire/Wind Replies also adding more big damage that fills GCDs in the 2-min burst window.

Black mage doesn't align with a 2-min burst either, technically. It has buttons that are pressed every 2 minutes, but it's not like the beginning of fire phase perfectly aligns with the start of a burst window.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pyitoechito

I'm confused. Are MNK's filler GCDs supposed to perfectly align to a 2-minute rotation? I thought the point of PB was you could interrupt the combos at any time to deal the big burst before returning to the standard rotation, with the new Fire/Wind Replies also adding more big damage that fills GCDs in the 2-min burst window.

Black mage doesn't align with a 2-min burst either, technically. It has buttons that are pressed every 2 minutes, but it's not like the beginning of fire phase perfectly aligns with the start of a burst window.

---

The addition of the beast charkas alongside a core skill rotation that will never loop back into itself means you will have a difficult time having the same resources available to you in the burst window each time you enter it. Sure you'll have perfect balance, but you may be lacking charged up skills unless you over cap on those resources.

Also not sure that black mage is the best comparison? I'm not an expert on the job, but it seems to me black mage is more about steady high damage than big burst phase damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wereotter

they said in no uncertain terms that monk's core rotation in Dawntrail wasn't going to change. They messed up, and they're fixing it.

The rotation as it was before the adjustment took 36 GCDs to loop back around into itself, or more than 2 minutes. This is a good change.

---

Except, at higher Skill Speed, we've actually been able to run two True Strikes per Twin Snakes outside of Demolish/Twin durations with formless GCDs (Blitz, Fracture, Touch of Death) from ARR through to Endwalker (though its advantage was at its most pitiful in Endwalker). So the ammo change still doesn't very well emulate what we used to have. And it still lacks any interaction with our CDs, be they soft (old Demolish) or hard (PB → Blitzes).

Also 36 GCDs is at most 72 seconds for Monk. No one takes more than 120 seconds to do 36 GCDs. Even the base GCD takes a mere 90s to do 36 GCDs. EDIT: He already corrected himself.

Imo, the change again misses the point. A "72s" loop (it wasn't, as you had PB, Blitzes, and Fire's Reply) was fine. That it didn't necessarily loop per or around RoF or Brotherhood (i.e., per 60 or 120s) was fine. Requiring new muscle memory (for those using standard loop instead of any adjustment) is fine. What wasn't fine was the lack of interaction or nuke-GCD besides Opo-spender, and that remains unchanged.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Imo, the change again misses the point. A 72s loop was fine. New muscle memory (for those using standard loop instead of any adjustment) is fine. What wasn't fine was the lack of interaction or nuke-GCD besides Opo-spender, and that remains unchanged.

---

Also the fact that you as a player have to set up your UI to make tracking the orbs more manageable. Like "weak auras". Since otherwise you could quickly end up staring at the UI to check for what you had to press.

But now that's not an issue since at least for me with a controller i can just set up 6 cross hotbars that cleanly loops through the entire rotation turning the abc-123 into just 123-123...

Still hate that those two HUD elements are glued together, was hoping they would separate them when they mentioned having to update it for the reduced ball factor, but oh well.

I'm not a progger or hardcore raider or etc., but I rather liked how MNK entered Dawntrail. Not at first, but around levels 95-96, it clicked and my muscle memory went away. I really liked using Pouncing Coeurl x3 for my Solar, then 1-2-3 for my Lunar. I liked having two charges of Rising Raptor. Also, I really liked how I could DK/TwS/Demolish pretty much when I wanted to refill charges/max out charges to perform PB right then and there (sure, it was literally mid-rotation which felt off at first, but it grew to be fun for me.)

Now it's back to MNK level 60 post Nadi Gauge and I'm just over learning new playstyle for nothing and feeling extremely constricted in gathering charges of chakra for PB use. I understand I sound obtuse, but I liked MNK a lot better with how it started DT.

why is 2 couetl fury good?

I liked the 1,2,3 stacks more than the 1,1,2 stacks tbh. With 1,2,3 you just had to follow the flow of your stacks, no matter what. But with 1,1,2 one tiny mistake with PB and your DK-TS muscle memory will betray you until you use PB again or waste a stack on purpose.

Oh man, new monk felt kinda fun after i got used to it, not really the job i play though, so what ever, at least they removed the 15% damage buff, that was probably the best change of all.

I'm scratching my head at this honestly. Was there really an issue outside of relearning muscle memory? Of what consequence was the rotation not neatly looping into your 2 minute window if there are no timers to refresh, outside of hyper-optimization in burst windows?

It kinda felt like a new job and was somewhat enjoyable.

They should have kept the previous caps with these changes. That way you can cap your furys and then people who like EW Monk can do 1-1-2 and people who liked the new Monk can just freestyle all day. Also creates opportunity for decision making with Raptor and Courel stance; "Do I want to cap my furys to prep for the 2 minute burst window, or do I have enough time to cash out my furys now?". It's at least something compared to now where there is no decision making. Also more positional.

The only problems that I am having with the current state of Monk is how using DK as a starter isn't giving me an Opop-opo's Fury stack and the fact that you can store 2 Coeurl's Fury despite not being able to utilize it...properly? Not sure if properly is a good word to use, but I am finding it hard to be able to find a use for the second ball without breaking the 4-5-6 combo (Leaping Opo, Rising Raptor and Pouncing Coeurl).

Maybe lowering it to one may be better, but that just might be my opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Volcannon

using DK as a starter isn't giving me an Opop-opo's Fury stack

---

Form Shift before pull. It's a dumb requirement, but it's been (ever since it was implemented HW) what allows DK to actually give its stated buff without a prior loop.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arohk

Oh man, new monk felt kinda fun after i got used to it, not really the job i play though, so what ever, at least they removed the 15% damage buff, that was probably the best change of all.

---

Removing the need to maintain the damage buff broke most of the interaction between our PB-Blitz strings and their surroundings. It was, to be short, for the worse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Volcannon

The only problems that I am having with the current state of Monk is how using DK as a starter isn't giving me an Opop-opo's Fury stack

---

This is because when you start a fight you're not in Opo form. Opo requires completing the previous form which is Coeurl, like all forms require completing their previous form as well. You need to start with Form Shift to get the Formless buff so that it counts the form no matter which skill you decide using (like after using a Blitz or Fire's Reply).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Volcannon

... and the fact that you can store 2 Coeurl's Fury despite not being able to utilize it...properly? Not sure if properly is a good word to use, but I am finding it hard to be able to find a use for the second ball without breaking the 4-5-6 combo (Leaping Opo, Rising Raptor and Pouncing Coeurl).

---

Monk doesn't have a traditional combo system where action 1 combos into action 2. Instead, it rotates through Opo-Opo > Raptor > Coeurl > Opo-Opo ...etc.

In each form, you gain access to specific weaponskills (the exception is Opo-Opo as they are always available, they just don't get their additional bonus) and you can use whatever after whatever.

So, starting With Dragon Kick in Opo-Opo, you gain 1 Opo-Opo fury, then Twin Snakes for 1 Raptor Fury, then Demolish for 2 Coeurl Fury. You then spend 1 Opo-Opo Fury when you use Leaping Opo, then spend 1 Raptor Fury on Rising Raptor, then spend 1 Coeurl Fury on Pouncing Coeurl.

Back to Opo-Opo, Dragon Kick for 1 Opo-Opo Fury, Twin Snakes for Raptor Fury, then Pouncing Coeurl to spend the last Coeurl Fury. Leaping Opo then Rising Raptor to spend the fury then Demolish to gain 2 Coeurl Fury etc.

If you really want to a loop:

DK > TS > Dm
LO > RR > PC
DK > TS > PC
LO > RR > Dm
DK > TS > PC
LO > RR > PC

Repeat. Things will change around after blitzes so really, all you need to worry about is, do I have Fury for the form? If yes, spend it, if no, build it.

You could argue that Monk has a fixed combo, it's just broken into three buttons that alternate a press each. Technically 6 buttons, but mechanically it's Opo->Raptor->Coeurl, and each has a move that for the next 1-2 times it is used upgrades into a different one, although mechanically you perform the same button sequence.

I wish they'd remove a lot of this "veneer" of complexity. Just make it three buttons that automatically alternate, or even better, remove the whole alternating thing and just give a potency boost if the fury is up. Since I also think positionals have lost all mechanical and job-design value with modern melee design and in particular modern fight design, I honestly could not care less if either positional is lost or both or whatever. And honestly if anything Monk ought to have face positions, in particular for our kick!

But it's a shame how little space for actual depth and complexity in job design there is, because everything is buried under this thick layer of "here, have 16 excess buttons that have no meaningful gameplay depth but we keep them around to pretend this is difficult to play". Monk is actually not the worst offender here, but it annoys me because the setup could be so cool if there were actual player decisions involved in each step of the combo, not just a fixed-and-slightly-hiddenbut-still-fixed rotation that could actually be 1-buttoned without loss of functionality (since Perfect Balance has no player decisionmaking either and could just itself become the 1-1-1 or 1-2-3 you next need to press when you hit it).