Feedback: Dawntrail MSQ dungeon difficulty

So I just wasted an hour in the Alexandria dungeon. I say wasted, because I spent most of that hour wiping with my NPC party on the first boss and then force closed the game mid-fight on the second one out of sheer frustration. Never before have I literally dreaded seeing a dungeon pop up in the MSQ the way I have in Dawntrail, but each one has gotten progressively more frustrating. I, like many others I imagine, play this game primarily to enjoy the story. And while DT's story hasn't exactly been my favorite, I have been enjoying the way it unfolded in the later half of the game yet having to struggle through increasingly difficult dungeons, I find myself questioning whether it's worth completing at this point.

I am admittedly an older gamer. My days of hardcore mythic/savage raiding are behind me, in part because I recognize that I just can't keep up with the increasing pace of fight mechanics. I'm completely capable of learning and reacting to mechanics, but there needs to be time to react. By the time you see the telegraph on the ground in these fights, it's already too late to get to where you need to be.

I have ZERO interest in playing Dark Souls or Elden Ring, but it feels like that's the direction the devs are pushing with these new dungeons. And while I recognize there is a portion of the playerbase that wants that, locking MSQ behind dungeons with that kind of difficulty punishes the rest of us.

I suggest that if these new fast-paced dungeons are indeed the direction Square Enix wishes to go with the game, that they add another difficulty setting to dungeons. By all means, give the hardcore action game folks their twitch reaction difficulty, but also make a normal level for the rest of us. You don't need to remove any mechanics, just increase the reaction time for them. Hell, I'd be happy if at least the NPC groups were altered to fit this, because right now, even the damn NPC's are struggling to keep up!

I bet you do the solo instances on very easy mode

I do them on normal actually, but thanks for your nonconstructive response.

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Originally Posted by Bearskjold

So I just wasted an hour in the Alexandria dungeon. I say wasted, because I spent most of that hour wiping with my NPC party on the first boss and then force closed the game mid-fight on the second one out of sheer frustration. Never before have I literally dreaded seeing a dungeon pop up in the MSQ the way I have in Dawntrail, but each one has gotten progressively more frustrating. I, like many others I imagine, play this game primarily to enjoy the story. And while DT's story hasn't exactly been my favorite, I have been enjoying the way it unfolded in the later half of the game yet having to struggle through increasingly difficult dungeons, I find myself questioning whether it's worth completing at this point.

I am admittedly an older gamer. My days of hardcore mythic/savage raiding are behind me, in part because I recognize that I just can't keep up with the increasing pace of fight mechanics. I'm completely capable of learning and reacting to mechanics, but there needs to be time to react. By the time you see the telegraph on the ground in these fights, it's already too late to get to where you need to be.

I have ZERO interest in playing Dark Souls or Elden Ring, but it feels like that's the direction the devs are pushing with these new dungeons. And while I recognize there is a portion of the playerbase that wants that, locking MSQ behind dungeons with that kind of difficulty punishes the rest of us.

I suggest that if these new fast-paced dungeons are indeed the direction Square Enix wishes to go with the game, that they add another difficulty setting to dungeons. By all means, give the hardcore action game folks their twitch reaction difficulty, but also make a normal level for the rest of us. You don't need to remove any mechanics, just increase the reaction time for them. Hell, I'd be happy if at least the NPC groups were altered to fit this, because right now, even the damn NPC's are struggling to keep up!

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Agreed on every point. I am the same way.
It is not too difficult. But the way they want me to learn is extremely frustrating and un-enjoyable.

They could have done a much better job.

As well there is no reason to lock themselves behind 1 difficulty setting. Why not just have a story mode? As well. Why not offer extreme/hard right away for those who want it? They are creating all of this discourse over difficulty for no reason. They could make everyone happy at once and they literally choose not to by believing they have to have 1 difficulty for all.

I actually logged in to post because I feel so strongly about this I can't really stay quiet. I've been playing FFXIV for a fair few years now, I consider myself average at best but I'm also a disabled gamer who has built up an FC with a partner I met within the game itself. I've tackled Extremes and tried Savages despite my disabilities and I've pulled my own weight even if I have struggled. I've had my daily roulettes to go to for casual content and it's been fun, running as a Healer I will say I've actually found myself a little bored at times however I've never had a problem because I understood if I wanted more difficult content I have access to it, everyone does outside maybe the most recent Ultimates, Extremes and Savages can be tackled in Party Finder so easily.

Which is why when I was greeted with Dawntrail and it's new difficult curve I gotta say it's pushing me away. I can handle the mechanics after a spot of failure up until the optional dungeon Strayborough Deadwalk. This single Dungeon has exhausted me not only because of it's sheer difficulty spike but because it's uninventing, its unfriendly and downright far too punishing for for casual content. Even if I can get behind the mechanics, even if I get them down and can push through with my disabilities it's so exhausting to play through on a daily basis if I do get it because I don't just have to worry about myself but other new players, other casuals or players with disabilities worse than my own.

What am I met with when I bring up how unfun this content difficulty is? "Use Trusts" "Get Good" "You don't need to do this content lol." even when I do offer actual criticism. This difficulty is misplaced, it's not welcome by quite a number of players, players that are worried that the upcoming Raids will be just as harsh and unforgiving. We've had Extreme and Savage difficulties for so long now, why are we bothering to put this level of difficulty into the casual side of the game? Funny thing is I actually agreed things should be made more difficult, ShB and EW Extremes were easy as it is... but that's where the difficulty should be, not in our daily Expert Dungeons.

Personally I hope this content gets nerfed, I hope it becomes more accessible to more players because if they double down on the difficulty you'll be seeing a lot more casuals drop the game over time.

Yes, it is really incentivizing me to deploy my counter measure to ensure l don't have to deal with these dungeon, so l can have a smooth leveling roulette.

I am posting in agreement to the original poster. I play this game as something to enjoy/relax after work, but starting with the first Trial (Valigarmande I think it was called) and onward anything involving a group has been more frustrating than enjoyable. I've had points where I failed multiple times trying to just get through to enjoy the story. I understand there was an extremely vocal minority that was complaining it was "too easy." I call them a vocal minority because from my experience if you queue up for trials / raids for anything that is Stormblood or later you will see a good number of people wiping to supposedly "too-easy" mechanics, which is an indicator to me difficulty was already high enough. This is not me trying to invalidate the opinion of those who did ask for higher difficulty, but merely using observation from my experiences to determine logical incorrectness in their statement of "too easy."

"Get good" does not always work and is not a valid response in all cases, there are literally past mechanics from older expansions I continue to have problems with even after encountering them at least 20 times, and I don't foresee practice making any difference on these. These are some examples of mechanics I will never be able to "get good" at:

1. Zodiark "Astral Eclipse" from Endwalker.
2. The Neir raid fight with the black and white blocks
3. Ultima the high seraph has some weird off-screen mechanic that kills me and I never see where it comes from.
4. Tower of Zot's Sanduruva, specifically Manusya Confuse. I'm on the autism spectrum, and have some difficulty picking up body language and facial expressions. The differences in the poses are too subtle for me to pick up and process this mechanic. To me they all just look the same. I'm unable to do this mechanic on my own, and have to follow the trust NPC's or follow a player and hope they run to the right spot.

What I ponder is since they seem to have caved into the demand for more difficulty, how much bigger is this red list going to get?

If the difficulty of a dungeon or raid is too easy then at best the "hurt me more" folks go into autopilot mode, and at worst they find it boring and won't like doing that particular raid or dungeon. If the difficulty is too high on the other hand then the "chill" folks will find it makes the game frustrating at best, or if it's an MSQ piece and required it becomes a brick wall at worst and makes the game feel unbeatable, to a point they feel they may as well quit since they cannot progress. The difference here is that in the case of too easy the "hurt me more" folks can finish it and be done with it then eventually move onto their extremes/ultimates where they will be hurt more from mechanics and difficulty. But the "chill" folks hitting a brick wall in MSQ trials/dungeons literally aren't going to complete the game, and quit.

I finally did them (I took my time) and I think, for the most part, they are just fine in terms of "keeping you awake" and engaged. Leonogg is obnoxious and they probably have to do something about those add hitboxes or how long the beheaded status lasts.

I'm still beating my head against Vanguard. I've got gimpy hands from a stroke and I've gotten a little better at remembering that the trust members will run out of an AoE at the last possible second which will squash you if you're a step behind but haven't gotten past the second boss before getting booted from the instance. And they're programmed to screw up and just eat the hit in multiple places, so sitting on top of them just kills you immediately

Can I ask what it is about the first boss of Alexandria that people struggle with

If it’s his attack where he puts out 6 doughnuts or cross shaped AOE’s then does either a side or front cleave it’s about understanding his rhythm as only the first and last of the 6 doughnuts/cross shaped matter as they are the ones that will fall inside his potential side cleaves

1) if his first attack is a doughnut it will go off before his side cleave, so stand in the doughnut then immediately move out
2) if his first attack is a cross shaped AOE simply preposition closest to the first doughnut
3) if his last attack is a doughnut the cleave goes off first, preposition for the cleave closest to the doughnut, don’t be afraid to press sprint
4) if the last attack is cross shaped then you are already golden

As for the first boss of strayborough his adds are annoying and the punishment for them is too long but the adds don’t actually hurt that much so don’t be afraid of them

If worse comes to worst you can also do these fights on a tank, the tanks are near immortal so if you get hit by one or two AOE’s you’ll be fine

These sort of threads really p*** me off because 9/10 times SE listens to them. The gap between msq dungeon difficulty to Ex Savage has gotten wider and wider over the expansions. There needs to be a more consistent rise in difficulty as you progress through the game and the only time lower dungeons should be nerfed is when the next expansion comes out.

I'm not a Savage/Extreme player as such, but I do like to dabble and challenge myself at them every so often. Nerfing them just makes the end game content harder as it's more of a shock to the system when you reach them.

"Use Trusts" "Get Good" "You don't need to do this content lol."

You know what kind of players will dominate this game if this trend continues. I have seen many a game experiencing this.

It is simple: more grinding and unforgiving mechanism -> competitiveness and toxicity prevail; less grinding and unforgiving mechanism -> collaboration and friendship grow.

Yoshi-p has a choice, so do we all.

To those who mock casual players who have better things to tend to in real life: What are you afraid of?

The falsehood of the sense of superiority? From a Small Small dungeon? Your refusal to understand the Main Story?

You are entitled to enjoy the game your way, but not entitled to talk about other players in such a mean fashion.

Get good in your etiquette, please. How other players play the game is none of your business.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Can I ask what it is about the first boss of Alexandria that people struggle with

If it’s his attack where he puts out 6 doughnuts or cross shaped AOE’s then does either a side or front cleave it’s about understanding his rhythm as only the first and last of the 6 doughnuts/cross shaped matter as they are the ones that will fall inside his potential side cleaves

1) if his first attack is a doughnut it will go off before his side cleave, so stand in the doughnut then immediately move out
2) if his first attack is a cross shaped AOE simply preposition closest to the first doughnut
3) if his last attack is a doughnut the cleave goes off first, preposition for the cleave closest to the doughnut, don’t be afraid to press sprint
4) if the last attack is cross shaped then you are already golden

As for the first boss of strayborough his adds are annoying and the punishment for them is too long but the adds don’t actually hurt that much so don’t be afraid of them

If worse comes to worst you can also do these fights on a tank, the tanks are near immortal so if you get hit by one or two AOE’s you’ll be fine

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I play WAR primarily, and I can assure you, if you fail the mechanics of these new fights enough times, you are still going to die. Granted I had a lot more trouble with the NPC groups than actual players, but still, sprint has a cd and if you don't happen to notice the new, more subtle boss prompts at just the right time, you are going to get hit.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

These sort of threads really p*** me off because 9/10 times SE listens to them. The gap between msq dungeon difficulty to Ex Savage has gotten wider and wider over the expansions. There needs to be a more consistent rise in difficulty as you progress through the game and the only time lower dungeons should be nerfed is when the next expansion comes out.

I'm not a Savage/Extreme player as such, but I do like to dabble and challenge myself at them every so often. Nerfing them just makes the end game content harder as it's more of a shock to the system when you reach them.

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I'm not advocating for nerfing the dungeons per say. I'm saying that MSQ should not be locked behind dungeons that the average player will struggle to get through. Many of us play this game primarily for that story, because we have been enjoying these stories in the single player Final Fantasy games for years. When you reach a boss in a single player FF that you're incapable of defeating, you go out and grind levels and/or get better gear and come back. You might research different strategies that utilize abilities you hadn't previously used. That isn't an option with these MSQ dungeons, because there are limits to how far you can level/gear, and strategies for clever spell use in the single player games don't work here. So instead, your option is to continue pounding your head against the wall in frustration, go with a group and hope you have a damn good healer and someone who knows wtf they're doing (preferably the healer), or give up and miss out on the sole reason you were playing in the first place: the story.

It's disappointing to me that over the years, SE has followed Blizzard's example of increasing dungeon difficulty by simply making more crap you have to dodge. Only SE takes it one step farther, by limiting the use of predictive addons and making many "warnings" extremely subtle and easy to miss. There are most definitely ways to increase the challenge in dungeons beyond "dodge the crap". It's group content, engage the whole freaking group. It doesn't have to just be tank gets smacked, healer heals, and dps stand there smashing their heads against the keyboards as fast as possible. Design encounters where the mage has to use his magic to tank something, or the ninja has to sneak past something to unlock a buff, or the bard has to shoot something that debuffs the boss. There's countless ways to add challenge beyond dodge the crap as fast as you can or die, but it is the easiest way for companies to please the young folks looking to turn MMORPG's into the next Elden Ring so they keep on doing it.

So if they really must continue down this path, then all I am asking is that another difficulty is added to dungeons. Let those folks looking for that Dark Souls action have their super fast-paced dungeons, and then make a second difficulty with a little slower pace for the rest of us.

I think the chance of failure in a dungeon is good and healthy. I think no matter what, there are going to be people who find the content too easy, and people who find the content too difficult.
Maybe there could be an "echo" option added for trusts? Like in old high-end content. It could make all the NPC's do the mechanics correctly, and buff the player's hp/damage/healing. They could even limit this to the first play-through, and have it as an option after you die, encouraging people to tackle the normal difficulty later for more drops.
There are ways to make it so people that aren't as good at the game can still participate, without punishing people who have played enough to have gotten better at it.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Can I ask what it is about the first boss of Alexandria that people struggle with

If it’s his attack where he puts out 6 doughnuts or cross shaped AOE’s then does either a side or front cleave it’s about understanding his rhythm as only the first and last of the 6 doughnuts/cross shaped matter as they are the ones that will fall inside his potential side cleaves

1) if his first attack is a doughnut it will go off before his side cleave, so stand in the doughnut then immediately move out
2) if his first attack is a cross shaped AOE simply preposition closest to the first doughnut
3) if his last attack is a doughnut the cleave goes off first, preposition for the cleave closest to the doughnut, don’t be afraid to press sprint
4) if the last attack is cross shaped then you are already golden

As for the first boss of strayborough his adds are annoying and the punishment for them is too long but the adds don’t actually hurt that much so don’t be afraid of them

If worse comes to worst you can also do these fights on a tank, the tanks are near immortal so if you get hit by one or two AOE’s you’ll be fine

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I think the issue is because of the timing between the O/X AoE and the Immune Response AoE. It’s timed to catch players out by playing on the fact aoes have generally taken longer to resolve.

Which, personally I think is a pretty interesting way to change things up, by subverting our expectations. Once you work out the timing you’ll rarely ever get hit by it unless you stop paying attention (collective you lol).

As for Strayborough I do agree that despite how annoying the mechanics are the damage is tuned fairly low. Which likely is exactly why the mechanics are more obnoxious than usual lol. Though, that still won’t stop me from hating those little shits that yeet themselves at you out for no reason, attach themselves to you, refuse to elaborate further. lol

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Originally Posted by Xurias

4. Tower of Zot's Sanduruva, specifically Manusya Confuse. I'm on the autism spectrum, and have some difficulty picking up body language and facial expressions. The differences in the poses are too subtle for me to pick up and process this mechanic. To me they all just look the same. I'm unable to do this mechanic on my own, and have to follow the trust NPC's or follow a player and hope they run to the right spot.

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Unless they've changed the way it works, I can help you with this one. If you look at the quest list, at the top should be the Duty tasks and it should have the boss name with a health bar. If you click on that, it should target the real boss out of all the fakes, and you can run to safety. That's how I have to do it, because otherwise it's the same for me, I'm too slow at seeing which one isn't doing some sort of emote. It takes my brain too long to process them all. :(

Also throwing in my agreement on here after the final story Trial. It was all enjoyable except for the one mechanic where the room was absolutely covered in crap to dodge. It reminded me of Eparch in GW2, and there's a reason I refuse to do that map meta ever again. It's rage-inducingly frustrating trying to dodge so many mechanics that I can't tell them apart, and a LOT of people over there, including one of the best raiders in that game, absolutely loathe that fight.

And now it seems SE is doing the same damn thing, except it's the final, MANDATORY fight of an expansion.

Also, apparently the optional unlock dungeons are the same way, 'cause I saw someone mention a dungeon I hadn't even heard of yet? Which means I'm going to absolutely dread roulettes. Guess after I finish leveling what classes I want, I'll do my first deliberate unsub, 'cause this whole mess ain't it for me.

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Originally Posted by Bearskjold

I am admittedly an older gamer. My days of hardcore mythic/savage raiding are behind me, in part because I recognize that I just can't keep up with the increasing pace of fight mechanics. I'm completely capable of learning and reacting to mechanics, but there needs to be time to react. By the time you see the telegraph on the ground in these fights, it's already too late to get to where you need to be.

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It sounds like the issue here is you're assuming that the split-second aoe flashes here are meant to be dodged with hardcore gamer twitch-react skills, when they're not at all. When you see a split-second aoe indicator flash like boss 1 of Alexandria, you should take it as a sign that there's something else you're supposed to be paying attention to to tell you where to go, because indicators like that are always just meant as a way to show you where the range of the attack is in case you get hit, so you can learn where the edges of the aoe actually are.

"When you see the telegraph, it's already too late" is the point, you're supposed to already be in position to dodge the aoe before it shows up. Stand on the donuts before they explode, and stand diagonal of the plus signs before they explode. When they do, move into position for the next one. It's a learning mechanic, not a reaction one.

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Originally Posted by Akonyl

It sounds like the issue here is you're assuming that the split-second aoe flashes here are meant to be dodged with hardcore gamer twitch-react skills, when they're not at all. When you see a split-second aoe indicator flash like boss 1 of Alexandria, you should take it as a sign that there's something else you're supposed to be paying attention to to tell you where to go, because indicators like that are always just meant as a way to show you where the range of the attack is in case you get hit, so you can learn where the edges of the aoe actually are.

"When you see the telegraph, it's already too late" is the point, you're supposed to already be in position to dodge the aoe before it shows up. Stand on the donuts before they explode, and stand diagonal of the plus signs before they explode. When they do, move into position for the next one. It's a learning mechanic, not a reaction one.

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That was one specific example, and even that has little margin for error. Fights where you are looking for some subtle move the boss is making or difference between one lightning orb and another are much harder to figure out in time to be useful, and heaven forbid you have to look down at your bars for any reason at the wrong time. And like others have mentioned, there are several fights where there is literally so much ground clutter/lights effects that it's almost impossible to even make heads or tails of what's going on at your feet. I have no problem with wiping to new content while learning, but it's difficult to figure things out when there's nothing obvious to learn from and mistakes are swiftly punished.

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Originally Posted by Bearskjold

So I just wasted an hour in the Alexandria dungeon. I say wasted, because I spent most of that hour wiping with my NPC party on the first boss and then force closed the game mid-fight on the second one out of sheer frustration. Never before have I literally dreaded seeing a dungeon pop up in the MSQ the way I have in Dawntrail, but each one has gotten progressively more frustrating. I, like many others I imagine, play this game primarily to enjoy the story. And while DT's story hasn't exactly been my favorite, I have been enjoying the way it unfolded in the later half of the game yet having to struggle through increasingly difficult dungeons, I find myself questioning whether it's worth completing at this point.

I am admittedly an older gamer. My days of hardcore mythic/savage raiding are behind me, in part because I recognize that I just can't keep up with the increasing pace of fight mechanics. I'm completely capable of learning and reacting to mechanics, but there needs to be time to react. By the time you see the telegraph on the ground in these fights, it's already too late to get to where you need to be.

I have ZERO interest in playing Dark Souls or Elden Ring, but it feels like that's the direction the devs are pushing with these new dungeons. And while I recognize there is a portion of the playerbase that wants that, locking MSQ behind dungeons with that kind of difficulty punishes the rest of us.

I suggest that if these new fast-paced dungeons are indeed the direction Square Enix wishes to go with the game, that they add another difficulty setting to dungeons. By all means, give the hardcore action game folks their twitch reaction difficulty, but also make a normal level for the rest of us. You don't need to remove any mechanics, just increase the reaction time for them. Hell, I'd be happy if at least the NPC groups were altered to fit this, because right now, even the damn NPC's are struggling to keep up!

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As a player who loves high-end content the new Dawntrail dungeons have been enjoyable and engaging .
I love the new difficulty but I think there can be an option to have something like the echo present when doing these SOLO with NPCs (Duty Support/Trusts). I have not played with NPCs but it sounds like they could do a better job at making sure you live. That way players like you can enjoy the story.

I don't feel that the Elden Ring / Dark Souls comparison is apt for current dungeon difficulty. From where I'm sitting, as someone who wears many hats and tries as many game genres as possible, FF14's current dungeons are still easy. Sure, I've died in a few dungeons, but then after the first death I learned the mechanic and proceeded to "not do the thing that got me killed".

That said, considering the few threads that have popped up I'm not going to ignore the complaints. Seeing as there are people who dislike the increased difficulty enough to consider unsubbing, and then there are people like me where if the game suddenly becomes easier than it currently is I might fall asleep and accidentally hit the unsub button myself... MSQ dungeons clearly need variants for both casual players and players desiring a more "expert" mode experience. Could even separate them out so only the normal variant appears in leveling queues, and the "expert" variant appears in another tier of queue (an expert difficulty dungeon only queue).

...And then while they're at it they could make trust NPCs more reliable in terms of moving out of the way of mechanics + DPSing. While I haven't used Trust for DT, I recall the Trust NPCs (when I was kicking around leveling them for fun) sometimes failing mechanics or snapshotting mechanics- neither of which helps someone who needs the Trust.

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Originally Posted by Alyx-Greywind

-snip in order to match character length limits-

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I kind of fail to see how the dungeon category called Expert should be entry level casual- i.e. something that can be rolled through without too much thought, concern, or general attention given to the things happening on screen. There's a word in the name that should mean something. If the bare minimum level of control manipulation and brain power to kill a random world mob isn't enough to beat the expert dungeon: we're getting somewhere in terms of making expert dungeons what they should be. MSQ dungeon difficulty is one thing, because everyone has to do them and they will gate you from the rest of the game. Expert dungeon difficulty is an entire different subject matter. Combining the subjects will, in all likelihood, destroy any capacity for two portions of the playerbase to see eye to eye on potential changes to difficulty and difficulty option variety.

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Originally Posted by Khutulun

I kind of fail to see how the dungeon category called Expert should be entry level casual- i.e. something that can be rolled through without too much thought, concern, or general attention given to the things happening on screen. There's a word in the name that should mean something. If the bare minimum level of control manipulation and brain power to kill a random world mob isn't enough to beat the expert dungeon: we're getting somewhere in terms of making expert dungeons what they should be. MSQ dungeon difficulty is one thing, because everyone has to do them and they will gate you from the rest of the game. Expert dungeon difficulty is an entire different subject matter. Combining the subjects will, in all likelihood, destroy any capacity for two portions of the playerbase to see eye to eye on potential changes to difficulty and difficulty option variety.

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It's honestly mislabelled, we used to get optional dungeons but now the newest dungeon gets added which pushes a dungeon out of the Expert Rolo. These are Story Dungeons that will get added to Expert, are we going to then still have this back and forth where players cannot continue? "But it's Expert." - It'll draw players away.

Another argument I keep seeing is that it bridges the gap between Extremes and that this is good for when players do end game content... thing is not everyone is wanting to pushing the end game content, for a long while now we've been used to Expert being casual too, if players suddenly cannot continue doing this content because it's getting harder they're actively getting less out of their subs, this will also push casuals away.

I agree that there should be more difficult content but it should be placed outside of Story/Expert and into things like Variants which promised this difficulty but ultimately didn't deliver. The various Primal Fights were called Hard Mode but they were easy, same with the Hard Mode Dungeons that were mostly just rehashes of the original Dungeons.

There is an obvious clash between players who want more challenge and those who are currently struggling, I'm seeing players who simply cannot adapt due to circumstances outside of the game and they're still being told to "Get Good." and it sucks because a lot of the feedback given by the casual crowd has been well written, they're trying to explain why this content is too difficult and they're being met with hostility.

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Originally Posted by Khutulun

I don't feel that the Elden Ring / Dark Souls comparison is apt for current dungeon difficulty...

That said, considering the few threads that have popped up I'm not going to ignore the complaints. Seeing as there are people who dislike the increased difficulty enough to consider unsubbing, and then there are people like me where if the game suddenly becomes easier than it currently is I might fall asleep and accidentally hit the unsub button myself... MSQ dungeons clearly need variants for both casual players and players desiring a more "expert" mode experience. Could even separate them out so only the normal variant appears in leveling queues, and the "expert" variant appears in another tier of queue (an expert difficulty dungeon only queue).

I kind of fail to see how the dungeon category called Expert should be entry level casual- i.e. something that can be rolled through without too much thought, concern, or general attention given to the things happening on screen...

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Firstly, as a long time soulsborne player, I have to agree, anyone comparing these games doesn't know what they're talking about, there's literally nothing in FFXIV that comes remotely close to that kind of difficulty until you start getting into savage raiding, and even then the challenges are vastly different due to the nature of single player versus team based games.

The way I see it, the MSQ's and dungeons are the skill floor for this game, they determine who we want to be able to play. If you want a game that everyone can engage with, and you don't want to exclude anyone, SE needs to design these entry level activities so that they're engaging, but can be tackled by everyone, that includes people with disabilities, the very young and elderly who may lack reaction speed, the casuals who lack the time to practice, etc. There's a plethora of more challenging activities for players who find this more accessible content boring.

As for the dungeons being called Expert, I really don't think that's a valid argument, excluding the dungeons available at launch, every other expert dungeon has been mandatory for story progression. There'd be outrage if players were still stuck in Endwalker because they couldn't clear The Lunar Subterrane.

Personally, I enjoy the additional challenge, but I also feel like we're hitting a point now where people are going to start being skill checked out of the MSQ, and that's a price I'd rather not pay just to make my personal experience a little bit better.

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Originally Posted by Bearskjold

I have ZERO interest in playing Dark Souls or Elden Ring, but it feels like that's the direction the devs are pushing with these new dungeons.

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I feel like calling the new dungeons Souls-like hard is a mite disingenuous, personally. They feel more like a return to Shadowbringers levels after the massive difficulty drop in Endwalker as far as I have found, and I am also an older gamer with vision and processing issues.

That being said...

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Originally Posted by Bearskjold

Hell, I'd be happy if at least the NPC groups were altered to fit this, because right now, even the damn NPC's are struggling to keep up!

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I cannot personally speak to the trust's skill level as I have not yet played them with trusts (I always go with real people first and level trusts later), I have wished that trust NPCs were capable of rezzing like players. I feel like that would be a great boon to players struggling with mechanics due to processing issues, age, or disability. So rather than add a completely different difficulty level, giving NPCs who would have the ability to rez due to their class (Urianger, Alphinaud, Alisaie, ...) that ability would allow for said players to make it though dungeons a bit easier, especially if the devs keep planning to dedicate so much time to ensuring the trusts are available throughout everything MSQ.

Difficulty in this expac has been fantastic. I want to see more of the same, or even harder dungeons. It's about time we treated players like they should know how mechanics work.

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Originally Posted by Raziek91

Difficulty in this expac has been fantastic. I want to see more of the same, or even harder dungeons.

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I certainly don't disagree! Though I found the story rather lackluster this particular expansion, I've quite loved the dungeons and trials myself. Though I advocated for easier trusts above, I'd relish harder dungeons in general.

Lady of 75 here, 27 mmo yrs under her belt with over 3k hrs in this game. This will be my last full xpac, become too difficult with the ol arthritis. This was just too much for me this round and although I still love The Hunts, people using mods have ruined that for me.

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Originally Posted by Besame

Lady of 75 here, 27 mmo yrs under her belt with over 3k hrs in this game. This will be my last full xpac, become too difficult with the old arthritis. This was just too much for me this round and although I still love The Hunts, people using mods have ruined that for me.

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There's clearly a lot of younger players who don't care about the older people trying to enjoy the game (just git gud!). I'm the same age as you, I've been playing FFXIV since 2013 (and other mmo's for years before that), and I did make it through the Dawntrail msq, but I can't say all the dungeons and last trial were exactly enjoyable... I fail to understand why a "story" mode difficulty option is such a bad thing...I know...just git gud, lol... It's not like a lot of us that have issues are going to be raiding or doing the more difficult content and thus dragging other people down. I'm just happy to finish the basic required dungeons and trials once and never do them again. I still find plenty to enjoy in the game without that, but you MUST finish the msq to unlock the different areas and vendors.

I mean I'm 35 and I'm still doing alright, and according to people in the internet these days I may as well be a corpse.

Yea I agree. DT's ramp is twice too high. But who cares about the casuals wanting to finish the FORCED MSQ. I think its about time they either allow us to skip all of msq and enjoy the zones and crafters and gatherers. Or make it so they have difficulty tiers in this game. MSQ being ALWAYS VERY easy. Then you UNLOCK very hard duties into experts. EW showed horrible duties and it only got a million times worse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lenarr

There's clearly a lot of younger players who don't care about the older people trying to enjoy the game (just git gud!). I'm the same age as you, I've been playing FFXIV since 2013 (and other mmo's for years before that), and I did make it through the Dawntrail msq, but I can't say all the dungeons and last trial were exactly enjoyable... I fail to understand why a "story" mode difficulty option is such a bad thing...I know...just git gud, lol... It's not like a lot of us that have issues are going to be raiding or doing the more difficult content and thus dragging other people down. I'm just happy to finish the basic required dungeons and trials once and never do them again. I still find plenty to enjoy in the game without that, but you MUST finish the msq to unlock the different areas and vendors.

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I finished the MSQ a few days ago but 2-3 parts were so hard for me physically this time. I want to have fun but not hurt myself or not enjoy gaming hehe. I used to be "GET GUD" but this xpac bout did me in. What took 3-4 days last time was many days and an actual struggle. If they had a very easy mode for MSQ or a way to opt out of certain trials and dungeons I would keep on keeping on but I am sure it won't happen. Handicap mode? hehe. Anyway, thanks for the response. Glad there are still like-minded older gamers wanting some of the old thrills.

One of the best things about FF14 was the kind and accepting playerbase... but i guess Warcraft's failure has brought in the dregs of the gaming populace that only see other players as a burden rather than fellow adventurers now. I liked the casual difficulty and kind people, but now that is gone and we are headed right to the same "E-SPORTS GET GUD KEKE KEK WHAT LOUZER!!!1!!" grave that Warcraft has found itself in.

I am absolutely trying my hardest to discern the boss' movements to figure out what is happening but I am also trying to keep my pictomancer (I am still learning the rotation at 100) doing damage and all this crap on screen, on the floor, in the air, off the sides of the boss platforms... its just too much... I feel embarrassed to even try to learn along side people who apparently have figured out telepathy to know what the hell is going on in these encounters. What was wrong with the dungeons in the story being for people that wanted to see the story? Not only do I end up resigning in shame 90% of the time (learning nothing as half the time, I am clueless what even killed me) but I am now behind a BRICK WALL that I cannot climb. Or I suppose it is better to say I am ashamed to feel like I am wasting everyone's time in a normal dungeon needing to be rezzed multiple times per fight because I have absolutely no idea what is going on now.

The cactus boss in tender valley, I just took the L on today... the evasion box is right there.. but then I am standing in DOUBLE AOE... and every single time I die. Laugh if you want, i feel ashamed already and don't even want to play anymore. I am so beaten down by cheap "YoU ThOugHt YoU We'Re SafE hUh?" deaths over these last three dungeons I just want to cry for real. What was so wrong with having a casual difficulty for people learning their class... Half the time I am not even able to cast as a pictomancer unless I have the instant cast up because YOU NEVER GET A CHANCE TO BREATHE EVER.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lenarr

There's clearly a lot of younger players who don't care about the older people trying to enjoy the game (just git gud!). I'm the same age as you, I've been playing FFXIV since 2013 (and other mmo's for years before that), and I did make it through the Dawntrail msq, but I can't say all the dungeons and last trial were exactly enjoyable... I fail to understand why a "story" mode difficulty option is such a bad thing...I know...just git gud, lol... It's not like a lot of us that have issues are going to be raiding or doing the more difficult content and thus dragging other people down. I'm just happy to finish the basic required dungeons and trials once and never do them again. I still find plenty to enjoy in the game without that, but you MUST finish the msq to unlock the different areas and vendors.

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These days empathy is scarce.

Sometimes, I think, in order to prevent gaming addiction among the youths, making games of lower difficulty but higher cultural values is key.

But corporations of the age value sheer profit, and resort to using addiction psychology to manipulate young people for it.

Maybe, just maybe, the same Yoshi-p has become the person he replaced years ago. Everything has an end.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikitan

One of the best things about FF14 was the kind and accepting playerbase... but i guess Warcraft's failure has brought in the dregs of the gaming populace that only see other players as a burden rather than fellow adventurers now. I liked the casual difficulty and kind people, but now that is gone and we are headed right to the same "E-SPORTS GET GUD KEKE KEK WHAT LOUZER!!!1!!" grave that Warcraft has found itself in.

I am absolutely trying my hardest to discern the boss' movements to figure out what is happening but I am also trying to keep my pictomancer (I am still learning the rotation at 100) doing damage and all this crap on screen, on the floor, in the air, off the sides of the boss platforms... its just too much... I feel embarrassed to even try to learn along side people who apparently have figured out telepathy to know what the hell is going on in these encounters. What was wrong with the dungeons in the story being for people that wanted to see the story? Not only do I end up resigning in shame 90% of the time (learning nothing as half the time, I am clueless what even killed me) but I am now behind a BRICK WALL that I cannot climb. Or I suppose it is better to say I am ashamed to feel like I am wasting everyone's time in a normal dungeon needing to be rezzed multiple times per fight because I have absolutely no idea what is going on now.

The cactus boss in tender valley, I just took the L on today... the evasion box is right there.. but then I am standing in DOUBLE AOE... and every single time I die. Laugh if you want, i feel ashamed already and don't even want to play anymore. I am so beaten down by cheap "YoU ThOugHt YoU We'Re SafE hUh?" deaths over these last three dungeons I just want to cry for real. What was so wrong with having a casual difficulty for people learning their class... Half the time I am not even able to cast as a pictomancer unless I have the instant cast up because YOU NEVER GET A CHANCE TO BREATHE EVER.

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As an ex WW player from launch for 8+ yrs, I remember the playerbase well. Toxic is a mild way to describe many of that lot. Fortunately I was younger than and had no physical issues hehe. FF was much more friendly several years ago but now, I finish the MSQ and never touch another dungeon/trial unless forced to by the story line. I get by with Hunts, crafts and gathering, etc.

if you struggle with some mechs, then just stop attacking and focus on dodging. Its anything but too hard..

if you are really not able to do that, then you should read books, instead of "playing" video games or simply have a df group help you out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikitan

One of the best things about FF14 was the kind and accepting playerbase... but i guess Warcraft's failure has brought in the dregs of the gaming populace that only see other players as a burden rather than fellow adventurers now. I liked the casual difficulty and kind people, but now that is gone and we are headed right to the same "E-SPORTS GET GUD KEKE KEK WHAT LOUZER!!!1!!" grave that Warcraft has found itself in.

I am absolutely trying my hardest to discern the boss' movements to figure out what is happening but I am also trying to keep my pictomancer (I am still learning the rotation at 100) doing damage and all this crap on screen, on the floor, in the air, off the sides of the boss platforms... its just too much... I feel embarrassed to even try to learn along side people who apparently have figured out telepathy to know what the hell is going on in these encounters. What was wrong with the dungeons in the story being for people that wanted to see the story? Not only do I end up resigning in shame 90% of the time (learning nothing as half the time, I am clueless what even killed me) but I am now behind a BRICK WALL that I cannot climb. Or I suppose it is better to say I am ashamed to feel like I am wasting everyone's time in a normal dungeon needing to be rezzed multiple times per fight because I have absolutely no idea what is going on now.

The cactus boss in tender valley, I just took the L on today... the evasion box is right there.. but then I am standing in DOUBLE AOE... and every single time I die. Laugh if you want, i feel ashamed already and don't even want to play anymore. I am so beaten down by cheap "YoU ThOugHt YoU We'Re SafE hUh?" deaths over these last three dungeons I just want to cry for real. What was so wrong with having a casual difficulty for people learning their class... Half the time I am not even able to cast as a pictomancer unless I have the instant cast up because YOU NEVER GET A CHANCE TO BREATHE EVER.

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Learn your job on a striking dummy.

I will never understand why people feel entitled to being a burden on others by playing jobs they can barely process in relevant content.

I basically really enjoyed the MSQ dungeons personally but I can see why they're a problem.

In my experience it boils down to three of the bosses; Maulskull, Vasoconstrictor (they're not actually called that but that's their one big move so that's their name now), and Alexandria Boss 1. They're all very punishing and I've been in tons of parties that wipe repeatedly on it. Personally, I am okay with wiping repeatedly to a boss to learn it and eventually beat it, but not while I'm following a story. In a way, this was all mitigated, ironically, by the fact Dawntrail's MSQ is kind of divisive to begin with and I didn't care so much but I was one of the people who hated the initial version of Out in the Cold because it was thoroughly frustrating and took me out of a really important part of the story. When the story is good, I actually do not want to do anything hard.

Wiping is great when I want to do hard things, but not when I'm following an FF story. I think people are forgetting that this is technically a main line Final Fantasy game. Even as a small child, I don't recall ever having difficulty while following the main story of a Final Fantasy game. Simply put, if the proximate plot point is "We must rescue my girlfriend from the edgy tower of darkness to stop her destroying the world", wiping 15 times to Sephiroth while learning his attack patterns is frustrating, even if it makes sense because Sephiroth is very cool and, in a vacuum, would be a very fun boss to fight. Contrast this to something like Elden Ring; the story exists and is there for you to piece together but it's never building so much momentum or magnetism up for itself that it gets in the way of you side tracking to spend five hours dying to some random guy in a cave.

So obviously, Alexandria Boss 1 is the standout among these. Great boss. Tons of fun. Way too hard for MSQ. You need to make five precise movements which need to secondarily respect an AoE that will go off sometimes before and sometimes after the tic-tac-toe telegraph depending on when the inhaling sequence starts, in close proximity to the boss and all the effects going on around it. It's then immediately followed up with a tank buster for the tank and a stack for everyone else. This is straight up harder to execute than most of the stuff the first Extreme throws at you. The tank's probably fine because the tank's always fine. If one person died and another got hit, the person who got hit is likely to die without intervention of some kind. I know how to throw a thing onto someone else as a tank but I struggle to execute that and hell if I've seen a tank do that for anybody during that sequence. If two people died and you're the healer, have your cooldowns up and know exactly what to do, you can survive the stack solo by topping off, throwing on a shield and mitigating, but that's also asking a lot. Someone is at minimum healing an extreme before that's being asked of them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mlem

So obviously, Alexandria Boss 1 is the standout among these. Great boss. Tons of fun. Way too hard for MSQ. You need to make five precise movements which need to secondarily respect an AoE that will go off sometimes before and sometimes after the tic-tac-toe telegraph depending on when the inhaling sequence starts, in close proximity to the boss and all the effects going on around it. It's then immediately followed up with a tank buster for the tank and a stack for everyone else. This is straight up harder to execute than most of the stuff the first Extreme throws at you. The tank's probably fine because the tank's always fine. If one person died and another got hit, the person who got hit is likely to die without intervention of some kind. I know how to throw a thing onto someone else as a tank but I struggle to execute that and hell if I've seen a tank do that for anybody during that sequence. If two people died and you're the healer, have your cooldowns up and know exactly what to do, you can survive the stack solo by topping off, throwing on a shield and mitigating, but that's also asking a lot. Someone is at minimum healing an extreme before that's being asked of them.

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Except, the thing is, *you don't* have to keep all that stuff in mind for the Alexandria boss. You basically just have to focus on getting inside the donut aoes before they go off, and then immediately move out before the breath/tentacles hit. The plus aoes are basically just there to distract you.

99% of the problems I'm seeing from people in DT dungeons is that, by level 100, they still haven't grasped that for most mechanics, the animation and the circles on the ground aren't what matter in terms of timing. It's the cast bar. You can walk right into a tentacle slam or poison breath and take no damage because, once the game considers that the attack has gone off, as long as you weren't in the targeted area when the cast ended, you're good.

There are some exceptions, but for most mechanics in the game, all that matters is where you are at the end of the cast bar. The boss in Alexandria requires you to do that, and remember the order in which the mechanics come out. That's it. There is no split-second dodging, there's no unfair sneaky mechanics, it's just stand in one place for one mechanic, then move to a safe spot for the next one as soon as it resolves.

Christ please do not nerf these or lower the difficulty going forward, we finally have a base level of difficulty worthy of being 500+ hours deep and 10 years into the game

If you don't know how to read visual tells on bosses, look at cast bars or intuit mechanics from context clues at this point in ffxiv's lifecycle, let alone resolve basic stack/spread/chariot/dynamo/polarity/acceleration bomb/etc marker mechanics that have been recycled to death in literally hundreds of encounters up to this point in the msq, and which the developers have gone far out of their way and literally postponed the addition of new features to standardise in older content for the purpose of establishing a learning curve, the problem is not the game or the baseline difficulty chosen for dt - it's you and your stubborn unwillingness to put in even the slightest bit of effort before giving up and crying foul

And to the people with physiological or neurological issues that restrict your ability to perform your rotation, negotiate mechanics, move throughout the game world and such, I respect your perseverance but what are you even doing here, and why do you feel that an action rpg with a heavy thematic emphasis on overcoming adversity should remove adversity from encounter design just for your personal gratification?

Please be better, and stop dragging everyone else's enjoyment down just because you feel like you're owed progression