This is a vent post based on the mechanics of Crystaline Conflict. Be warned. There’s no where else to go and I’m at my wits end.
Since the golden age of 2-3.0, it feels like the dev’s have gone out their way to water pvp down. Why? Perhaps to make it easier for the typical casual to have a chance at enjoying it. Alright. Sure. This basically penalizes any individual who sat down, took the time to learn their job, and became ferocious with it. Nope, can’t have that kind of output in pvp aaany more. So let’s do all we can to scale it down.
Crits. Buhbie.
Auto attack. Buhbie
Gear bonuses. Buhbie.
Binding between the eyes. Buhbie.
Mnk, smn, drg delete buttons. Buhbie.
1-man army war (Berserk, Bloodbath, Retaliate) Buhbie
Brd 1-Shottery Burst. Buhbie.
And the list goes on. It feels like the devs are saying, “Ooh no no no no no, there’s no way in HELL we want you working individually, being a pvp hero and saving the day! This is a team game and by GOD will you play it that way.” Soooo…what THIS fundamentally does…is takes 5 of us (in Crystaline Conflict), shackles our ankles to the mast of a ship, and we get told to row like our little lives depend on it. Now here’s the thing. Because we NO LONGER have carry power, each individual HAS to pull their weight. However, because the devs have become increasingly allergic to actual damage, certain jobs, much much much more so, in the hands of a ‘casual’, not vet but average take it or leave it combatant. . .at least from my experience, feel insufferable. Meaning, no matter how much YOU do, if you get 2+ of these jobs on your team, you’re gonna do down with the ship.
CC & The Big Four
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07-03-2024, 10:13 AMVandiCC & The Big Four
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07-03-2024, 10:13 AMVandi
Before I list these jobs, keep in mind, in the right hands, they CAN be played proficiently. So if you’re an individual who uses one of them(and knows how), ignore this post and keep up the good work.
Listed from Bad to ‘throw out the plane with no parachute’:
4. Reaper- “My scythe is too heavy. Help me!”
3. Paladin- The Tickle me Elmo of pvp. “But look at my Def bruh!”
2. Dancer- “Push? Aoe?! No, no, I don’t do those. I’m ranged lolol.”
1. Brd- 100% bottom community service.
Alright, so. Reaper. Reaper, at least of late…IS actually a decent job for its utility. Very solid defensively. However, rpr is in many ways like a locomotive that needs team powered coal to get going. Watch what happens if you’re paired with rpr, pld, and a healer. 0 damage. 5 years to kill anything. Unless you’re breathing down someone’s throat, Enshroud takes 5 years to start damage, can be guarded, then run away from. Since chunks of its dps comes from assists, having any of the above jobs on team seems to always make it suffer.
Paladin. It tickles. It gets in the way. But it’s no dpsing gnb or Cc stun spamming war. It has. . .cover. 1 person cover. And some extra hp. That’s it. A decent pld will break 500k in a typical match. Some can’t break 200k. Some can’t 100. No solid aoes outside of LB.
Dancer. Every full moon, I’ll see a dnc that does stupid high damage, which lets me know the potential is there. But soooooo many times, get stuck with dncs who can’t hit the x button more than twice the whole match. Single target, no crystal point aoe support, nothing. Damage is non existent. But BOY are they good at running away.
And lastly.
Bard.
The community service janitor of pvp. Everytime mch and Brd are on the same team, mch slaps brd, pushes it to the ground, sits on its chest, effectively bottoming it, and says: “Hold my beer. The whole match. And say thankyou for the privilege.” There are those who will immediately defend Brd and say with silence it’s practically broken. No. WHITEMAGE. . .is a better bard than brd. Verses what Brd was capable of in 3.0 by the end of it, this version is a geometry pool shot playing joke. Even maximizing its line shots, it’s tickle damage. WHITEMAGE gets a hypervelocity multi dimensional rail gun LB. Brd. . .gives you gauge.
And holds your beer.
For free.
So, just saying from personal experience, whenever you get 2+ of these jobs at match start, you already got 2 feet in the grave. Sorry.
And yes, I know some of you will 100% disagree with everything said here. Perhaps you’ve been fortunate enough to have much much better experiences. I can only go off what I’ve had to very verrrry consistently suffer through. -
07-04-2024, 01:14 AMVolfe
I still don't understand how people play Reaper so consistently bad. It's not too hard of a job, I'm getting +8 kills +1m damage with it most matches. A well timed LB can easily get you a solo kill.
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07-05-2024, 10:52 AMVandi
There are a lot of subtleties about reaper a dedicated person has to learn, let alone the typical casual. For example with the lb when versing a solo target, if at all possible positioning yourself with them between you and a wall so they run into it and your combo can start quicker vs chasing em down. I think many are sitting on their abilities too long, waiting for just that perfect moment instead of just spamming.
Technically, I feel of all the melees, reaper COULD be the best. It has good utility in all areas, but paired with itty bitty nip nip jobs like dnc and brd, verses say, mnk and drg, it has to work 2-3 times as hard for decent damage. It’s getting better, but for now, it still feels too much a reflection of the team. If team is super aggressive, rpr will do damn good things. If team is a bunch of lil. . .timid individuals, it’s gonna suffer. -
07-08-2024, 05:07 PMDallsBeepThat just a clear misunderstanding of what the move is actually to the game situation. It's very difficult at times for even a seasoned player to pick up on the fact they're hitting into your shield before they've used a couple of abilities. I eat stuns, LB's, and all that nullified damage does not show up in the stat sheet. Not to mention it will give the guarded player consequence free DPS or a free full heal and if they're savvy enough to know which one they should be doing it's just clutch. It's like having a great defensive centerfielder in baseball. Preventing a run is just as valuable as scoring a run. It's the big brain moneyball move for big brained Chads.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandi
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07-08-2024, 06:35 PMPraesul
I don't know how you can put that many top tier jobs on that list and not feel an ounce of shame, but RPR being on that list is what offends me the most.
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07-15-2024, 10:05 AMVandi
…because as I very clearly stated, top tier jobs in the hands of typical casuals who don’t take the time, sit down, and understand the fundamentals of their mechanics are a liability, but these particular jobs with their default low damage are particularly useless if not played tactically. Far as I’m concerned, Reaper MIGHT be one of if not THE best melees because it has both wonderful utility and durability. Its escape is smooth, arcane circle uptime allows it to tank anything, heavy stops lil anklebiters from zipping away for free, and enshroud, especially with its aoe conclusion is solid. But you have people brainlessly hitting X button and immediately expecting drg or smn level damage and it’s just not gonna manifest that way.
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07-15-2024, 10:31 AMVandiQuote:
Originally Posted by DallsBeep
To a melee or ranged who knows what they’re looking for, cover is as noticeable/telegraphable as a sam’s full gauge chiten. Furthermore, because the current paladin is no where NEAR as durable as say 3-4.0 pld, if it gets hard focused, especially after/for covering, it melts. That particular skill is laughably punishable. Just stick a 1 over ones who are known for overusing it. Is it tactical, yes, but as I said, that’s in the hands of a decent player. Half of plds don’t even use it for their team mates to begin with. And what’s left? Tiny damage. -
07-15-2024, 11:59 AMVatom
I agree with RPR it needs some more dmg buffs
PLD wounds hurt to have more AOEs but other then that it’s really good
DNC I curious as to how you playing that you see dmg as the only asset DNC is actually really powerful if you aren’t looking to 0-100 someone but aid you team snipe executions and precise AOEs can turn a fight your not a liability cause you can’t 1v1 everyone and in what world of ffxiv is DNC know to be a brawler
BRD could use some dmg like RPR but not that much like RPR
But why are we comparing BRD to MCH a class that’s purpose is to get one person off the board to another that is supportive
If it’s just dmg I think your looking at things wrong if it’s job design I would luv to know what you ideal job would be (not being sarcastic) -
07-15-2024, 12:27 PMBurmecia
No idea what buhbie means... =3=
Anyway. After moving onto MCH after one too many dismal BRD changes, I dared to move back to BRD. To see if I could make it work, despite everything.
Super duper short range Silence is not fun, but I've noticed you can still ruin someone's day with it. So that's gladdening.
+ I am coward, so I play these ranged jobs to not have to be too close to scary enemies -- but, unexpectedly, my revisit of BRD taught me to be a little bolder, because of Repelling Shot.
Binding absolutely can also ruin someone's day, too, expecially if I have some friends nearby.
My favourite turbo lazy mode in fields of glory is to shoot along in those gaps of the central ring, with my turbo lazy macro. DRK's really love those, but I guess they rarely expect to see Binded+Silenced as they jump in. It rarely kills them, admittedly, but often enough it gets them to turn tail and run away if they didn't have enough fiends to back them. -
07-15-2024, 01:12 PMVandiQuote:
Originally Posted by Vatom
With respect, I’m curious to know what your priorities are in a typical team in CC, seeing as dmg doesn’t seem to be at the top of that list. Not judging. Everyone has their own style.
Far as I’m concerned, when considering any given job, there is NOTHING more important in pvp than kill potential. Killing an opponent. . .trumps every other action. It beats a 4 second stun. It beats a team mate heal. It beats 3 second silence. Why? Because when a target is lying unconscious on the ground, it contributes NOTHING to the team, so jobs that can effectively induce this state are x10 more valuable than ones that. . .support.
The current brd. . .supports. It holds the team’s beer. Even when the team isn’t thirsty. Outside of bind and silence, defensively, it is THE most vulnerable, naked job on the team. “Help meee. . .”
Mch. Kills stuff. Blows it away. From across the map. Then drinks the beer brd was holding for it. Solo target, it stands its ground VERY well defensively with its probe/bio, which doubles over as very offensive on crystal point.
That’s why we’re comparing brd with mch. One job murders stuff. The other shines its shoes. Supportively. Perhaps you find said support more tactical. That’s fine. I’ll quietly take the murder.
To clarify the point, in the hands of a casual player, based exclusively on personal experience, it all feels something like this:
Brd < Mch, Whm
Pld < Gnb, Drk
Dnc< Blm, Smn
For the categories they’re engineered to utilize, entering dmg/kill potential into the equation, other jobs COMMONLY. . .just do it better. NO, that is NOT always the case, but 8/10 times in the everyday match with casual players, not vets, that’s what I see. Perhaps your experience greatly differs. Like I said, I have no clue what your priorities are if damage potential isn’t at the absolute top of that list. -
07-15-2024, 02:24 PMDallsBeepThis is why support classes like healers and paladin are extremely valuable because they alone outside of the diminished player's own game sense and reaction have the ability to prevent that asset from being removed off the board. No, damage is not the most important thing in CC. That every class is performing up to it's potential damage is important but there is a hard cap on that. Ability up time has a limit. Potential damage has a limit. Effective use of your ability up time is far far far more important than raw numbers in this game. And by that I obviously mean hitting the right target at the right time and not standing around doing nothing while your abilities are up when you can be putting them to use. And these classes role is to mitigate any imbalances that come about as that uptime is wavering.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandi
Paladin and Astro/WHM can absolutely take over a game and have pretty mediocre dmg at the same time while facing really high dmg outputs, just by simply manipulating the pieces on the board, protecting the weak link. I mean this is so fundamentally obvious and you are arguing for this in the statement I quoted above. All I can say is the support classes I quoted in this post have some of the highest carry potential in CC. That's not to say you can carry players that are doing 150k-200k dmg at all, but nobody should expect that and no class played well should be doing that, and this seems to be the main basis for your post which I think is a flawed starting to point, to say the least.
Also, cover is an S tier skill lol. This is simply for the fact that outside LB's it has the most potential variation in the value it may provide the team anytime I use it. It can be anything from "that got me killed" to "I saved my healer from dying to the gun breaker LB, nullified a couple of stuns, stalled the crystal, and gave their MCH an aneurysm." Not many other basic skills are going to give anything like that kinda value unless it's a group heal. I mean ffs you can literally just grab a person who's about to die and tell the enemy team "ayo hole up a minute bros we's gotta discuss some thangs, timeout ya'll time out" and give that player a full heal on the spot, thus completely averting the outcome that you pointed in the quoted portion above where you pointed out that having a player KO'ed is a pretty bad outcome at any given time in the match. I mean wtf man. -
07-15-2024, 03:10 PMVandiLet me repost for clarification since it seems a bit needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by DallsBeep
[However, because the devs have become increasingly allergic to actual damage, certain jobs, much much much more so, in the hands of a ‘casual’, not vet but average take it or leave it combatant. . .at least from my experience, feel insufferable.]
Your above posts refer to individuals who actually KNOW their job’s dynamics. ANY job currently out can be played decently. Perhaps YOUR experiences have greatly differed. From mine, which is 100% all I can go by, the above jobs, in the hands of a __casual__ (need me to retype that particular word) suffer the most because of their low output. And yes, damage IS the most important thing in CC. Why? Because NO job, under a full focus, has the sustainability it had in previous expansions. The slews of damage mitigation abilities that existed have been stripped away, so that a hard focus on ANYONE collectively will kill them.
You mention, for example, pld, Astro, Whm as being absolutely take over worthy. Team marks the Whm. As pld, you can cover til you turn blue. After your 5 seconds of guard go poof, you’re gonna melt from a focus. The negative abilities just aren’t there anymore. Cover WAS a pain in the ass when Rampart, Sentinel, and Spammable HG were available, but the current pld has NONE of that. Just what, 12k extra hp and guard. And when those go?
If a gnb, drg, sam, blm, and smn went up against a pld, reaper, dnc, Whm, and brd for example, the latter usually gets wrecked. Why? No. Damage. You can play defensive til your butt falls off, but if you can’t KILL anything, you’re just stalling the inevitable. Is this always the case? No. But by god is it the majority. -
07-15-2024, 03:21 PMMagikazamSo that not a issue of those jobs, but an issue that your teamate ain't as good as you want in CC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandi
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07-15-2024, 03:37 PMDallsBeepI don't really want to get into hypotheticals of what might happen in a match because that is a lot of stuff, so I'd like to examine something a little more concrete. Do you realize how much of an advantage having a WHM or an AST on your team is when the opposing team has no healer? This is a massive advantage. I'm not going to say it's an automatic win because there is no such thing but give me any team, I'm playing any class, I have one of these on my team and you do not, you can take any combination of higher tier DPS classes that you want, I don't care, I'll take the healer every single time. I don't need to look at what you have because I know you don't have one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandi
And also I should point out I didn't really read the last part of your post correctly where you essentially laid out such a scenario where you're giving one side the healer and saying the big hitters will win. I'll be the PLD on that other team with the WHM and I'm 100% fine with it and I'm very confident in the team makeup. Because I look at that other team and I know the only one that can kill me 1vs1 is the GNB, I can just duck into their back row and I'm not too worried. Pal is a great disruptive class if you play it that way cause of the survivability. And it does have good survivability if you just got the balls to stand there and keep attacking because that's healing yourself. -
07-15-2024, 05:31 PMVatomMy priority is pushing that crystalQuote:
Originally Posted by Vandi
Unless you cherry picking or blind sight killing people. You should never be able to kill without CC or buffs or debuffs. If that happen 100-0 that person wasn’t even playing. MIT/ healing counters high dmg. I mean are we really gonna to ignore imp being able to cc any lb other then drg… no?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandi
That’s why we’re comparing brd with mch. One job murders stuff. The other shines its shoes. Supportively. Perhaps you find said support more tactical. That’s fine. I’ll quietly take
What happen if we give everyone this dmg you ask for? Will that make everyone better? With that make the match more fun? What are if we remove all cc can still kill? -
07-16-2024, 10:20 AMjoansbonesplease for the love of god play some high level ranked before commenting about cc balance. your casual queue teammates that can't figure out how to press recuperate to heal themselves are at fault here, it's like asking for a fps game to make a gun for people who only know how to look at the floor. nothing you give them is going to make them perform any better, you seem to not actually understand the strengths and weaknesses of each job judging by your comments in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandi
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07-16-2024, 01:12 PMVandiOh my. I sense some people are taking this all personally. Once more, let me restate:Quote:
Originally Posted by joansbones
[Before I list these jobs, keep in mind, in the right hands, they CAN be played proficiently. So if you’re an individual who uses one of them(and knows how), ignore this post and keep up the good work.]
When ranked matches die out 2-3 weeks into the new season (at least on Excalibur), all this high ranked skill. . .goes up in smoke. Poof. What’s left? Casual. Not at ALL talking about high ranked matches. If it continued through out the season, I wouldn’t be here. But because we have no other mode BUT casual CC, that’s all there is to gauge. I can only go by personal experience, and by some of the things I’ve been reading (such as cover being an end of the world godly skill), it’s simply clear your experiences reeeeeeeeally differ from mine. No harm. Perhaps for YOU, in the typical casual, no ranked match (which is what’s predominantly played when ranks died out) brds and dnc’s do great things. In my world, every now and then I’ll see a dnc who does just plain STUPID damage. Wonderful. But 9/10 times by my experience, brd, dnc, and especially pld are CONSISTANTLY the lowest jobs. REGARDLESS of their potential. -
07-16-2024, 01:39 PMVandiAnd my GOD that crystal must get pushed around the ever lovin’ WORLD when you don’t have the dps to clear it. Warms my heart when the blm and Sam step out the way for the brd & dancer. Yess sir.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vatom
Agreed. An unbuffed Wyrmwind Thrust + Marksman's Spite simultaneously on a target will be nothing more than a spiritually uplifting experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vatom
Um. *ahem*Quote:
Originally Posted by Vatom
3.0 4.0
We…
. . .actually. . .
. . .had it. I know I know I know -
07-16-2024, 02:36 PMDallsBeepCasual CC queue is full of players who don't know how to play, of every variety of class. I'll just use PLD as an example cause I'm pretty familiar with it. The reason why you see PLD's put up trash numbers in a steam roll game is because it takes awhile for PLD to get going, their LB takes a long time to charge up. It certainly wouldn't be unusual to see a PLD put up low DMG numbers if the crystal is already in their base before they've even gotten their 1st LB. This happens all the time, to me, and everyone else. Cause if you have 3 other people on your team that isn't doing shit and is going to die 5 times whilst taking 400k dmg which is very typical, then GL. You're gonna get rolled. Welcome to casual CC. But none of that has anything to do with any particular class being bad or harder to play or less valuable than classes that have higher DMG potential.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandi
When the match finishes you just go and look at the dmg numbers which is utter noob bait. Personally the first thing I look at is how many deaths were my teammates taking as compared to how much DMG they actually took, that's the first thing I look at if we got beat. The ability to deal with being focused and reacting to it and their ability to soak without taking themselves out of the fight is more indicative to how good a player is than how much dmg they're doing a lot of the times, especially if they're on a bad team that keeps dying which means they themselves are going to be taking more DMG and thus be put into positions where they have to deal with it simply because there's less targets on the field. A MCH that only takes 280k dmg in a match and puts up the big numbah and snipes a lot of kills or whatever, big fucking deal, players like that are a dime a dozen. Yeah maybe you can slot just anyone in there to do that on that class. In that scenario, what does that prove? -
07-18-2024, 05:24 PMVatomYeah again I think you had a sense of the right idea but not seeing the real issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandi
So 46k dmg might kill a healer but then again if your letting that happen is it really their fault that you got gotQuote:
Originally Posted by Vandi
Um. *ahem*
3.0 4.0
We…
. . .actually. . .
. . .had it. I know I know I know[/QUOTE]
And we also had a full kit
We also had healer being targeted
We also had less players even playing
Oh how is the feast doing again?
Once again I understand what your getting at but do you understand what your asking for?
Also if you bump up the dmg do you think the other team won’t have that dmg so did we go anywhere or is it now worst? -
07-20-2024, 07:57 PMVandi
I can see we’re going round and round here, so having stated my experiences, I’ll leave it at that. If you take pleasure in justifying the numbers these jobs put out, you do you. I’ll just conclude by saying when you break 1 mil dps and still lose because your brd and reaper couldn’t break 300, remember it was you who said how wonderfully supportive they were, and that somewhere, a blue femroe is laughing her azz off.
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07-28-2024, 09:01 PMRoguewavesI find it funny you start off your logic with the following but then complain that RPR, PLD, DNC, & BRD don't have enough carry potential. I know you said you're specifically referring to casuals and not vets but there's no way of making changes just for casuals without affecting the rest of the player base.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandi
This is just like the PVE discussion. You're basically arguing for homogenization. What makes those 4 jobs you listed fun, in the context of FFXIV's most basic iteration of PVP yet, is that they require a little more testing out to master it. It's impressive seeing a RPR, BRD or PLD be top dmg in CC (DNCs have no problem). In crystal CC matches PLD & BRD are favorites.
Some people like choosing "underrated jobs" to master and by making them all easy to pick up for casuals (which I'd argue they already are = BRD is the go-to for new pvp players) you'd be removing this. -
08-02-2024, 09:55 PMVandiMy above statement was ment to show that carry potential was removed, so that each job now HAS to pull its weight. Compared to the 1-shot burst potential of 2-3.0, individual jobs (save for mch/mnk clean lbs) have no where NEAR the killspeed they previously had. So when you get stuck with jobs that by DEFAULT already have low outputs vs other jobs, in the hands of a casual, in a typical casual match (which is ALL I’m discussing here, NOT ranked matches), 9/10 times it’s a death sentence. And as of late PcT needs to be added to the list. When I see a combination of these jobs (dnc, brd, pct etc) on one team, vs something like Sam, drg, smn on the other, I pretty much know I’m dead out the gate because of the typically low output from these. Does it happen ALL the time? No. But when you play a billion matches a week…you start to see patterns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roguewaves
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08-02-2024, 10:53 PMFatCatEnjoyer
it's just a casual match? gg go next