Tenacity has been buffed

https://i.imgur.com/Fj4JjhF.png

I'm curious as to how much it's been improved. If it's not as good as Determination, people are still going to ignore it when melding.

I'd be down for Tenacity being a meta stat so I'm hoping we can move away from CRIT/CRIT2

I hope it’s good but now it’s the question how good because pure dmg is just bringing back the balance issues ast had before but with tank stats

I doubt it's better than Det since Det's purpose is to be a lesser version of your mainstat. It's probably just making it closer to Det without replacing it.

Tenacity could give you 100% defence and 100% more hp. And 0.1% damage increase

People would still choose det if it gave 0.2% damage increase

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dzian

Tenacity could give you 100% defence and 100% more hp. And 0.1% damage increase

People would still choose det if it gave 0.2% damage increase

---

Pretty much this. They can buff Tenacity as much as they want, we do not need the defense, and I honestly doubt Dawntrail will change that. So as long as Direct Hit/Det/Crit provide more damage it will stay a dead substat.
And the main problem is that the stat from it's inception was basically a jack of all trades, master of none. It does everything a little bit but exactly because of that 3-way split it is not allowed to do anything particularly well.

Tenacity is apparently still worth 80% of DET.
Too bad, I wish they'd get rid of direct hit for tank, we're in for another expansion of damage variance it seems.

I honestly wish they reworked direct hit into something other than a "mini crit that stacks with real crits". Maybe have it be the stat that increase crit damage while crit increases crit chances, or just remove it. Seeing how the difference between a DHCrit and a normal hit being above double damage on big attacks is fun but damn i can't imagine the pain it must be to balance

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

I'd be down for Tenacity being a meta stat so I'm hoping we can move away from CRIT/CRIT2

---

Direct hit needs to be a DPS only stat, (or be removed). Because having a second crit stat is just boring, we're already made to just meld both and whatever's left goes to det.

I don't think tenacity is a stat that is designed around ff14, I mean tanks are already absurdly defensive, they shouldn't really need a meldable defensive stat that works against over stats that are better for damage, I'm not against a more interesting system where theirs actual room for that but as of current even if tenacity was meta it wouldn't make tanks anymore interesting.

It would be refreshing to see skill speed (which side note should work for Paladin and even dark knights spells, I don't know why it doesn't), was actually more of a "meta" stat, we could have more builds that are consistent for damage and builds around crit that may have a chance of doing more but is more crit dependent.

I do think melding is just generally just a poorly designed so I wouldn't be opposed to it going or it having a massive update in 8.0

Currently it's still a jack of all trade, master of none...
It should be an exclusive stat for Tank and the most no-brainer stat. Maybe they could increase crit chance to reduce even further the variance while also cutting the variance from direct hit.

Wouldn't it be fun if ennemies could crit as well and tenacity is the stat that reduces the chance of getting critted ? Given the damage variance from crits, you wouldn't have any choice but to make sure you reduce the crit chance to 0 with tenacity ! There problem solved !

You'd think after years of us NOT using the stat at all, they'd have figured out (if it doesnt increase damage, it's a shite stat we're not bothering with). 10 years and they've still no clue about how their playerbase works. Lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalaam

Wouldn't it be fun if ennemies could crit as well and tenacity is the stat that reduces the chance of getting critted ? Given the damage variance from crits, you wouldn't have any choice but to make sure you reduce the crit chance to 0 with tenacity ! There problem solved !

---

That would just make it a binary stat like accuracy was, you get exactly enough to not get crit because it's mandatory and then ignore it.

Yeah I know, I was sarcastic.
Honestly I dunno what could be done with it and direct hit

Tenacity is jack of all trade, cannot buff it without make it too OP, so no matter how they buff it, it will alway an inferior version of det anyway, a stats purely for damage, and damage us everything in this game

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShariusTC

Tenacity is jack of all trade, cannot buff it without make it too OP, so no matter how they buff it, it will alway an inferior version of det anyway, a stats purely for damage, and damage us everything in this game

---

Would it be a problem if Tenacity was broken as long as it's exclusive to tanks?
We would move from SKS tier > Crit > DH/DET to SKS tier > Crit > Tenacity.

Of course they'd skill have to make DH an ineffective stat for tanks, as long as a 0.1% chance of DH is possible, people will try to exploit it.

Yup, still the same meld priority it seems. Why don't they just get rid of materia at this point? It's the same illusion of choice as talent trees are in other games that try to have "balanced" classes. You don't choose your "build" with materia here, you just look up a guide what to meld, and do that. So what's the point in materia's existence to begin with?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MediArgentum

Yup, still the same meld priority it seems. Why don't they just get rid of materia at this point? It's the same illusion of choice as talent trees are in other games that try to have "balanced" classes. You don't choose your "build" with materia here, you just look up a guide what to meld, and do that. So what's the point in materia's existence to begin with?

---

Yes, they need to either rework materia, rework stat priority, or remove materia entirely. It's an illusion of choice that doesn't even act as a gil sink since just a couple tank/healer roulettes and you're flooded with the materia you need.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elkanah

You'd think after years of us NOT using the stat at all, they'd have figured out (if it doesnt increase damage, it's a shite stat we're not bothering with). 10 years and they've still no clue about how their playerbase works. Lol.

---

Well thats the issue isnt it, Materia's options are:
+Damage
+Damage(but worse)
+Damage(even worse)

There's really only one option. The gear upgrades in this game are so boring I don't even know why they're in the game.

Skill/Spell Speed could be an interesting alternative for faster resource generation but the numbers are so minor that it doesnt really even feel like an upgrade.

Unless you overmeld crafted gear at the start of a new raid tier. Hunt trains barely cover all the materia that breaks during pentamelding. It's still a huge gil sink but I agree do away with materia, it's a stupid system.

What would be interesting to me if we had damage melds and utility melds. I also think we should meld on our job stones instead of our gear, so different jobs can have different melds, even then have more then 1 sets of Materia would be nice to switch around from.

Damage melds would be
Crit - Same as it is
Skill/spell speed - (both should be merged lol) I think skill speed should scale so that crit isn't always the best meld, where skill would be a more "consistent pick" and crit can be ur highest peak pick.
Det - Filler stat

Utility melds on the other hand could either be baseline stat changes, such as HP, Defence values, or we could even have certain Materia that's more "in depth" melds that could effect defensive/raid wide utilities. Theirs a lot of room for creativity when it comes to utility.

This would be a lot of work so i doubt any of this but i would love to see more creativity with the melding and job system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rithy255

I do think melding is just generally just a poorly designed so I wouldn't be opposed to it going or it having a massive update in 8.0

Skill/spell speed - (both should be merged lol) I think skill speed should scale so that crit isn't always the best meld, where skill would be a more "consistent pick" and crit can be ur highest peak pick.

---

Melding non crafted gear should just be removed at this point. We'd do better with a "relic state reforging" system than anything else. As for Tenacity, if they want us to want it then they need to force it down our throats. Its not like this is WoW and we have a wide breadth of gearing choice. We literally have 2 sets, tomes and savage. Just remove the dps stats off our gear and force tenacity on us. Just give us a higher base crit/dh rate. Its not like some jobs dont have auto C/DH cooldowns as it is. Real problem though lands on encounter design. By forcing the tank and healer to do "competitive" damage while doing our role we have lost our identity. Generally I believe they should lower base enmity, and make tenacity increase the multiplier on enmity. Bring us back to having to actually try and keep threat and not be face roll, just because dungeon only people complain. The paradigm needs a shift away from "do the most damage we can" back to "control the fight and keep our friends from dying.

As for your comment about skill/spell speed, I also agree that it should be a combined stat. I have no idea if skill speed speeds up Paladin's spell casting or not, but a general singular stat would help simplify things (if not just raise materia prices because more people want them). I will say that having speed be more important in some cases works, but i think generally it should be a playstyle choice, which is there for some jobs but not an option in others. Jobs with a lot of ogcds which are speed locked will never benefit from speed nearly as much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by niwaar

Melding non crafted gear should just be removed at this point. We'd do better with a "relic state reforging" system than anything else. As for Tenacity, if they want us to want it then they need to force it down our throats. Its not like this is WoW and we have a wide breadth of gearing choice. We literally have 2 sets, tomes and savage. Just remove the dps stats off our gear and force tenacity on us. Just give us a higher base crit/dh rate. Its not like some jobs dont have auto C/DH cooldowns as it is. Real problem though lands on encounter design. By forcing the tank and healer to do "competitive" damage while doing our role we have lost our identity. Generally I believe they should lower base enmity, and make tenacity increase the multiplier on enmity. Bring us back to having to actually try and keep threat and not be face roll, just because dungeon only people complain. The paradigm needs a shift away from "do the most damage we can" back to "control the fight and keep our friends from dying.

As for your comment about skill/spell speed, I also agree that it should be a combined stat. I have no idea if skill speed speeds up Paladin's spell casting or not, but a general singular stat would help simplify things (if not just raise materia prices because more people want them). I will say that having speed be more important in some cases works, but i think generally it should be a playstyle choice, which is there for some jobs but not an option in others. Jobs with a lot of ogcds which are speed locked will never benefit from speed nearly as much.

---

Apparently someone on the dev team saw this one comment and took it VERY personally for gearing up tanks... and the worse part is that only Dark Knight benefits from tenacity and even they don't want that in if they can trade it in for either Critical Hit, Determination, Direct Hit Rate, OR Skill Speed...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by niwaar

Generally I believe they should lower base enmity, and make tenacity increase the multiplier on enmity. Bring us back to having to actually try and keep threat and not be face roll, just because dungeon only people complain. The paradigm needs a shift away from "do the most damage we can" back to "control the fight and keep our friends from dying.

---

This wouldn't actually fix the problem, just make the symptoms look prettier in a picture. Like SpS and SkS "checkpoints", this would mean that for each tier you got a "target Tenacity" you meld for, and then the stat becomes useless.

This is no better (and arguably no worse) than just removing the melding system entirely.

Increase mob/boss output tank damage, until tenacity matters.

The problem is not tenacity nor the fact that you only meld crit/direct hit or whatever on other jobs. Its the unavoidable consequence of having static stats on items.
In this game gear is pretty much a 0-1 situation, aside from some hipster speed builds, you always have a clear BiS, you never have doubt if one piece of gear is better than the other.

It would be different if gear you obtained had a) more kind of stats, b) the stat values on the item would have rng involved.

But as you know, its not the situation, so complaining about this particular issue is redundant.

Or if like in early DAoC, items had a finite lifetime (each time you repair them, some non-repairable stat drops slowly, once it needs to be repaired at 0%, that's it, item is now gone), and the entire item economy were refocused around that. If the "best" melds also cost a fortune by comparison, then since items don't live forever, using "good enough" melds (and items!) becomes a very real thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

Increase mob/boss output tank damage, until tenacity matters.

---

This would again just re-dress the issue, meaning you start a raid tier on 100% tenacity as you otherwise take too much damage, and as you get gear of that tier (with higher tenacity and base stats as the ilvl is higher) you remove tenacity melds and replace them with crit to do more damage. This is like Piety for healers, and see how well that works out for a comparison...

You cannot fix this via avenues such as these unless you first change things so that damage dealt by tanks is not an important metric at all, and hence optimizing for damage is not a "thing".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rithy255

What would be interesting to me if we had damage melds and utility melds. I also think we should meld on our job stones instead of our gear, so different jobs can have different melds, even then have more then 1 sets of Materia would be nice to switch around from.

Damage melds would be
Crit - Same as it is
Skill/spell speed - (both should be merged lol) I think skill speed should scale so that crit isn't always the best meld, where skill would be a more "consistent pick" and crit can be ur highest peak pick.
Det - Filler stat

Utility melds on the other hand could either be baseline stat changes, such as HP, Defence values, or we could even have certain Materia that's more "in depth" melds that could effect defensive/raid wide utilities. Theirs a lot of room for creativity when it comes to utility.

This would be a lot of work so i doubt any of this but i would love to see more creativity with the melding and job system.

---

I agree! Even if gear is still what is meldable, it should be - left side for damage melds/stats and right side for utility melds/stats.

This way you can literally customize your utility with no damage impact. The accessories have primary stats, but those utility ones are only obtainable via melding, and can be stuff like movement speed, mitigation, healing received, MP economy for healers, leech... or even new features like some kind of 'resilience' stat that reduces the impact or the duration of the Brink of Death/Vulnerability debuffs.

For the main stats, they should definitely merge the Speeds and ditch Direct Hit. I'd also love to see the Speeds actually useful for more jobs, but I feel it's very unlikely as long as we live under the leashes of the 2min meta.

It would be interesting if we had a new throughput stat that worked somehow like Mastery does in World of Warcraft, as in a stat that works differently based on the job you're at. For example, Dancers and Red Mages having higher proc chances, Astrologians could have increased card effects, Pictomancers with more damage on Motifs...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rithy255

Direct hit needs to be a DPS only stat

---

This. But also,

Direct Hit, Piety, and Tenacity should just all be the same stat with a single materia type, with it acting as dhit on DDS, piety on healers, and tenacity on tanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rongway

This. But also,

Direct Hit, Piety, and Tenacity should just all be the same stat with a single materia type, with it acting as dhit on DDS, piety on healers, and tenacity on tanks.

---

Pretty much what Mastery does in WoW, just that it has a different effect for every class instead of just role.