Movement abilities with damage just feels bad.

GAAAAH Spelling mistake in title. Movement abilities without damage just feels bad.

Plunge, Shoulder tackle and probably some more both got replaced with abilities that had their damage element removed...

And quite frankly it sucks, since now you removed one of the major elements that made using those feel satisfying. Great, you click the button and warp to the enemy. But no more do you get that great accompanying damaging sound as it connects, nor do you get to see any numbers appear on the screen.

It's now just a button that goes "you stand there now". And as someone who stuck with DRK partially due to the existence of Plunge, it's just sad to no longer yeet yourself on an enemy, ramming them with your sword. The first tank gap-closer, removed. (meanwhile paladin got to keep theirs with the damage element because?!?)

And all this because min-maxers weaved them into the rotation?

I disagree. Tagging damage into movement abilities just makes them soulless weave fodder rather than "movement and utility."

The loss of the associated animations, however, is sad. Plunge is far more of a unique animation that people loved, and Spineshatter Dive fits Dragoon (jumping job btw) far more than a generic dash.

Min maxers? I thought that using them properly as damaging tools were common for anybody seriously doing High End content, not just min maxers.

And that's exactly why I hate ogcd movement tools with damage components because it completely defeats the utility aspect of it. Chances when you actually need to move, for an unexpected reason, you won't have it available.

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Originally Posted by EliaStormblade

I disagree. Tagging damage into movement abilities just makes them soulless weave fodder rather than "movement and utility."

The loss of the associated animations, however, is sad. Plunge is far more of a unique animation that people loved, and Spineshatter Dive fits Dragoon (jumping job btw) far more than a generic dash.

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Agree the thing is them being movement skills with utility is just useless if they just become fodder weave skills, because you can replace them with any skill with damage and it would be the same so what's the point of them being movement skills. I use onslaught for damage only never to actually be used as useful movement and it just feels bad weaving movement skills for damage and not even using them for movement.

It's min-maxing the damage itself was largely negligible, least square could have added a min range making it so that you couldn't use it in melee.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

GAAAAH Spelling mistake in title. Movement abilities without damage just feels bad.

Plunge, Shoulder tackle and probably some more both got replaced with abilities that had their damage element removed...

And quite frankly it sucks, since now you removed one of the major elements that made using those feel satisfying. Great, you click the button and warp to the enemy. But no more do you get that great accompanying damaging sound as it connects, nor do you get to see any numbers appear on the screen.

It's now just a button that goes "you stand there now". And as someone who stuck with DRK partially due to the existence of Plunge, it's just sad to no longer yeet yourself on an enemy, ramming them with your sword. The first tank gap-closer, removed. (meanwhile paladin got to keep theirs with the damage element because?!?)

And all this because min-maxers weaved them into the rotation?

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Try playing monk or black mage. Or viper, I guess. Being able to teleport to a party member to avoid an AOE and greed a mechanic as much as possible is great. An infinite improvement over shoulder tackle. In general the game needs fewer damage dealing abilities and more actual utility ("increase damage by 5%" is not utility).

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Originally Posted by Toukichiful

Agree the thing is them being movement skills with utility is just useless if they just become fodder weave skills, because you can replace them with any skill with damage and it would be the same so what's the point of them being movement skills. I use onslaught for damage only never to actually be used as useful movement and it just feels bad weaving movement skills for damage and not even using them for movement.

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Well, since warrior no longer has any sort of self-damage buff, unless you're highly coordinated and saving all 3 stacks for the 2 minute meta burst, you can use one for damage and keep the other two for movement as long as you don't overcap.

The tank gap closer changes are completely backwards, the tank all about cramming damage oGCDs into burst lost a damage oGCD and the tank all about brainless Fell Cleaving keeps its damage.

Nobody was playing Warrior because "oh boy I sure love fitting oGCDs into my burst and carefully considering when to use my abilities."

Dragoon also needs to jump, that's literally their whole thing, it's not a monk with a spear.

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Originally Posted by Immut

Try playing monk or black mage. Or viper, I guess. Being able to teleport to a party member to avoid an AOE and greed a mechanic as much as possible is great. An infinite improvement over shoulder tackle. In general the game needs fewer damage dealing abilities and more actual utility ("increase damage by 5%" is not utility).



Well, since warrior no longer has any sort of self-damage buff, unless you're highly coordinated and saving all 3 stacks for the 2 minute meta burst, you can use one for damage and keep the other two for movement as long as you don't overcap.

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I did play monk, yet funny enough. The removal of shoulder tackle was one of the reasons i stopped, because it's replacement simply lacked the same satisfying feel to it.

From a tackle to a whiff in the wind.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

I did play monk, yet funny enough. The removal of shoulder tackle was one of the reasons i stopped, because it's replacement simply lacked the same satisfying feel to it.

From a tackle to a whiff in the wind.

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And yet, your forum job is dnc, a job that never had damage on its movement.


Also, I disagree on the mnk change. It's so satisfying being able to jump around to party members or bosses depending on the situation

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

And yet, your forum job is dnc, a job that never had damage on its movement.

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You are aware people play more than one job in this game right?

I think they could have looked at keeping the animations possibly. The animation on Rough Divide was pretty neat. Maybe some in-game hand-wave that we stop just before connection or something like that to explain why no damage. I'm not sad to not need to weave those in for damage anymore, though. It's nice they can be saved for utility.

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Originally Posted by Asako

You are aware people play more than one job in this game right?

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Yes. I was simply commenting on the one in their profile. Which has to be manually set for expansion jobs.

Plus, they were commenting on movement being terrible when it has no damage, yet multiple jobs are like that. Non also has no damage on its primary movement skill.

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

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Only DRK and GNB are affected. PLD and WAR still kept their original move with damage attached.

WAR: Onslaught
Rushes target and delivers an attack with a potency of 150.
Maximum Charges: 3
Cannot be executed while bound.

PLD: Intervene
Rushes target and delivers an attack with a potency of 150.
Maximum Charges: 2
Cannot be executed while bound.

I get what you're saying though, and it does suck for other tanks or all tanks affected :<

I agree, it would be better to remove the damage from them. Monk's shoulder tackle's funner to use when needed than war's 3 shoulder tackles used in the dps rotation.
What I'd like to see for tanks is more oGCD damage skills; specially if they alter your rotation in some meaningful way.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Min maxers? I thought that using them properly as damaging tools were common for anybody seriously doing High End content, not just min maxers.

And that's exactly why I hate ogcd movement tools with damage components because it completely defeats the utility aspect of it. Chances when you actually need to move, for an unexpected reason, you won't have it available.

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So you have to make choices in a video game and you have tradeoffs existing on skills. What's wrong exactly?

Chloe

It made more sense to lose the potency on DRK and GNB as they were flush with ogcd abilities to use and SE put a lot more potency on their GCD abilities to compensate. WAR would have been down to two and PLD would be at four with the loss of their movement ogcd damage if SE didn't add a new damage ogcd to compensate.

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Originally Posted by YouMayNot

So you have to make choices in a video game and you have tradeoffs existing on skills. What's wrong exactly?

Chloe

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It's not really a choice.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Min maxers? I thought that using them properly as damaging tools were common for anybody seriously doing High End content, not just min maxers.

And that's exactly why I hate ogcd movement tools with damage components because it completely defeats the utility aspect of it. Chances when you actually need to move, for an unexpected reason, you won't have it available.

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You can keep the charge at 1 until the last 10 seconds of the fight btw. I never take my charges down to 0 because I might need it at any moment. I would prefer if such mechanics of "asset management" would be put into other types of skills like rotation-changing skills like BLM's oGCDs; xenoglossy's one of the funnest skills in the game and that new one they got in endwalker that combines fire and ice.

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Originally Posted by YouMayNot

So you have to make choices in a video game and you have tradeoffs existing on skills. What's wrong exactly?

Chloe

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Unless you're not interested in achieving your best dps, you will be forced to use those movement actions offensively because in XIV, damage is more high value than any kind of utility.

In fact, even movement utility is not required to anything (or else everybody would need it), which makes this issue even more glaring.

I just don’t get why they did it to dragoon as backflip is right there already.

Got ratio'd in your own topic. Nice

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Originally Posted by Azureskies01

Got ratio'd in your own topic. Nice

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And?

It's essentially two overlapping topics. One being the feel of the gameplay, with the other being about flow of combat rotations.

Rotations can have decent flow but still feel bad because certain elements like sound and animations are lacking. While things with fantastic sound design and individually good feel to use, can also feel frustrating due to a lack of flow in the combat rotations.

In this case they are making the feel of the traversal skills worse, in favour of trying to solve an issue often caused by min-maxing the combat rotations.

So... 2 of the tanks got the damage removed from their gap closer...
The damage that was mainly there to generate aggro.

And one of the is DRK that had that the infamous trait reducing it's recast because they had nothing else to add to the job.

CBU3 is trolling the players

On the contrary, I think there is absolutely design space for movement attacks with the addition of pure movement abilities. Like imagine if DRK got Plunge back, but it was balanced to be an attack despite its ability to be used as a gap closer. Movement is one way to add a ton of weigh to an attack that isn't just increasing potency.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I think they could have looked at keeping the animations possibly. The animation on Rough Divide was pretty neat. Maybe some in-game hand-wave that we stop just before connection or something like that to explain why no damage. I'm not sad to not need to weave those in for damage anymore, though. It's nice they can be saved for utility.

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Yeah, agreed. I'm okay with removing damage from Rough Divide, but I would've liked to keep the animation.

Yeah it sucks. Rough Divide was one of my favorite GNB moves

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Originally Posted by Calysto

So... 2 of the tanks got the damage removed from their gap closer...
The damage that was mainly there to generate aggro.

And one of the is DRK that had that the infamous trait reducing it's recast because they had nothing else to add to the job.

CBU3 is trolling the players

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Tackling with shoulder (War) has damage
Doing a spin with a sword and slamming it down on the enemy (Drk) has no damage

Square enix logic is all over the place these days.

And unsurprisingly, the new ability doesn't feel as fun to use.

Maybe they can add conditions to the existing gap closers so that attack potency is granted only when conditions are met.

For example, make gap closers only have attack potency when you're 10 yalms away from the target. You're no longer forced to use gap closers during burst windows, while still being able to compensate damage lose when you need to move away

It's a rough idea. Don't know how much distance would be ideal for preventing being used as dps tool. I'm not sure if it's a perfect solution either

I can live without the damage, but I well and truly hate that so many jumps (especially on Dragoon of all things) got turned into lame-looking dashes.

Like, seriously, is there some issue going on in the background of the game that's causing them to bug things out? Because it's very specifically "leaps" that are getting sifted out. (Hell, did Dragoon even get a new jump on the road to 100, or was it all fancy spear thrusts and pike twirling?)

For DRK honestly I don't mind but the Dragoon jump this one really make me fucking mad to think about it's just lame job design for a job that is supposed to jump it's the first thing you think when you think dragoon now they only have Stardiver + starcross on a 60 sec cd which is fine but stardiver is lv80 80% of the game you don't have it and Dragonfire dive I don't know what worse that the jump is on 2 min CD , that its only 300 or that its upgraged with the new action is level 96. I played dragoon on a lv 50 dungeon this morning just to try with the remove of spineshatter it was the most boring experiance that I had and Dragoon is my f main. the biggest complain I had with dragoon is : Its burst come way too late in the game and burn so fast + not busy enough on lower content compared to other jobs

And what we got more high level action that you will use in the dlc for like 5 dungeons and 3 trials and less OGCD on lower level minor a party buff for a personal buff

Dragoon still hit hard thats not the point it just feel fucking slow

The only explanation for the dragoon change I have is this mental image of their brainstorming session:
- we need to remove the damage from the jump..
- but when someone is jumping on you from the skies with a spear - how can it _not_ cause damage?
- you are right, let’s make them drag their ass through the grass instead

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Originally Posted by SongOfTheWind

The only explanation for the dragoon change I have is this mental image of their brainstorming session:
- we need to remove the damage from the jump..
- but when someone is jumping on you from the skies with a spear - how can it _not_ cause damage?
- you are right, let’s make them drag their ass through the grass instead

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THAT! thank you!

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Originally Posted by SongOfTheWind

The only explanation for the dragoon change I have is this mental image of their brainstorming session:
- we need to remove the damage from the jump..
- but when someone is jumping on you from the skies with a spear - how can it _not_ cause damage?
- you are right, let’s make them drag their ass through the grass instead

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I hate that you're probably right about this, and it was likely the same "logic" behind DRK and GNB's dashes too, lol.

I think it was something similar they did back then when DPS had Stun kicks as role actions which had 50 potency or something. They would have weaved it into their rotation as much as possible, troubling the tanks by making the mobs immune to their stuns when it was needed (Qarn's first boss, for instance, could be stunned during its doom cast and making the fight a cakewalk).

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Originally Posted by EliaStormblade

I disagree. Tagging damage into movement abilities just makes them soulless weave fodder rather than "movement and utility."

The loss of the associated animations, however, is sad. Plunge is far more of a unique animation that people loved, and Spineshatter Dive fits Dragoon (jumping job btw) far more than a generic dash.

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Ah, yes. Utility.
Abilities like low blow and Interject, that i last used over a year ago and were reduced to button bloat.
Taking away the damage number, giving them a dogshit animation and never giving you a reason to use them breathed so much life into the game.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Ah, yes. Utility.
Abilities like low blow and Interject, that i last used over a year ago and were reduced to button bloat.
Taking away the damage number, giving them a dogshit animation and never giving you a reason to use them breathed so much life into the game.

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Well... I still get the occasional use out of stuns due to how many things they can affect.

It's the interrupts that I've yet to find a consistent (and useful) purpose for, same with the other "grazes" and sleep spells.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

Well... I still get the occasional use out of stuns due to how many things they can affect.

It's the interrupts that I've yet to find a consistent (and useful) purpose for, same with the other "grazes" and sleep spells.

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Legit haven't used low blow in over a year.
99.9% of this game's content is too trivial to have to use a single target stun.
The simple truth is, if they remove potency from utility, the ability becomes worthless.

The new Gunbreaker gap closer feels awful. It has a terrible sound compared to what Rough Divide had. The animation is very bad, also. Your character just ice-skates across the floor to the target without moving.

I want my flip back dammit!