No class identity and completely over simplified

Just want to preface I've been a healer main for basically every mmo out there. This is just honestly by far the worst healing experience I've ever played. The entire role is just not even needed somehow and that's fine whatever. It's been like that for 2 years with no fix and no care. So if I'm spending 99 percent of my time in 80 percent of the Content dpsing. Why do I only get literally 1 button . It's honestly just completely stupid.
I guess yoshi p said he knows? But then said there won't be anything done about til 8.0 2 years from now? Lol yikes. It's really sad that I had more dps buttons at level 70 than I will at level 100. How does that make sense.

I'm so annoyed I already pre ordered dawn trail. But this going to be the very first time I just blaze through the msq and unsub. I've never like had a thought about planning to unsub but if nothing is done for 2 years then that's just depressing

Well, I agree, let healers jobs have special mechanics for healing in the form of maybe a puzzle, jumping or running on some platforms that only they can see, even if the condition is an emote or something else special to liven up the fun of playing. But I disagree with taking away the ability of other jobs to somehow heal even if they are able to survive anything without a healer.
Unlike other MMOs, I have a great feeling from FFXIV that none of the jobs are anything extra special except for the type of combat and the appearance of spells. And that way I don't get healers playing god that I have to kiss the shoes of to pass an instance. And that's the right thing to do.

Well, good thing you haven't pre-orde...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KvotheCadera

I'm so annoyed I already pre ordered dawn trail. But this going to be the very first time I just blaze through the msq and unsub.

---

oh. Well, I'm sure subbing, buying the expansion and then definitely NOT subbing more is definitely going to stick it to SE.

Can I have your stuff?

Did you ever watch what Yoshi said about Dawntrail ? They made preview alpha version of some dungeon with statistics of warrior solo tanking dungeon without healer meanwhile Yoshi said whole developer team try to inspire with Elden Ring and how hard is to play it. Also he said few times Dawntrail will be more hard than any expansion before....maybe they dont want to scare people before release and players true experience. Maybe it will be really important to be a healer if Yoshi really said it will be hard....and honestly....i think it will be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThomasOfEger

Did you ever watch what Yoshi said about Dawntrail ? They made preview alpha version of some dungeon with statistics of warrior solo tanking dungeon without healer meanwhile Yoshi said whole developer team try to inspire with Elden Ring and how hard is to play it. Also he said few times Dawntrail will be more hard than any expansion before....maybe they dont want to scare people before release and players true experience. Maybe it will be really important to be a healer if Yoshi really said it will be hard....and honestly....i think it will be.

---

hard to say, I have been to that dance before. "more hard" is relative. more hard does not make for an engaging play style.. just more frustrating. and will be the same dance with the same music.... likely for 2 years. I would happily be wrong, but I am not going to base my hopes on it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KvotheCadera

Just want to preface I've been a healer main for basically every mmo out there. This is just honestly by far the worst healing experience I've ever played. The entire role is just not even needed somehow and that's fine whatever. It's been like that for 2 years with no fix and no care. So if I'm spending 99 percent of my time in 80 percent of the Content dpsing. Why do I only get literally 1 button . It's honestly just completely stupid.
I guess yoshi p said he knows? But then said there won't be anything done about til 8.0 2 years from now? Lol yikes. It's really sad that I had more dps buttons at level 70 than I will at level 100. How does that make sense.

---

Because healers complained since ARR -> Shb about :

—I'm a healer stop asking me for DPS.
—Remove cleric stance its giving me anxiety and then again I'm not a dps.
—This role is too hard and everyone is pointing at me , please make it easy.
—Please remove the dots what the hell man I refuse to do anything else besides healing.
—Stop telling me how to play my role and for the last time I'm not feeling good doing pulls to wall.

Now that SE fixed the issue people complains lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThomasOfEger

Did you ever watch what Yoshi said about Dawntrail ? They made preview alpha version of some dungeon with statistics of warrior solo tanking dungeon without healer meanwhile Yoshi said whole developer team try to inspire with Elden Ring and how hard is to play it. Also he said few times Dawntrail will be more hard than any expansion before....maybe they dont want to scare people before release and players true experience. Maybe it will be really important to be a healer if Yoshi really said it will be hard....and honestly....i think it will be.

---

Have you watched that run? He is doing single pulls. You can not do wall to wall pulling without a healer in this game even if overgeared.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Have you watched that run? He is doing single pulls. You can not do wall to wall pulling without a healer in this game even if overgeared.

---

He is actually doing wall to wall pulls as well (if you look at that timestamp https://youtu.be/VqBWp00XNZs?t=450 )

I personally dont care if some streamer who pretty much no lifes the game did a dungeon with no healer the game I play I still see healers failing to heal raid wide damage encounters causing raid wipes or even party wipes, just because a few people are bored of their role doesnt mean every single healer is a pro and their difficulty should be ramped up to appease the few.

More damage skills and more variety in what abilities used would be nice, but the alot of healers already playing cannot do this simple class as it is.

Example, I was just in World of Darkness and one raid had 2 scholars in it, they didnt bother healing at all and their raid kept wiping, only the raid I was healing and the other raid were always the last ones standing.

And the healerstrike thread just wants to be an echochamber instead of sharing ideas and thoughts so I thought it's best to let them have at it and ignore the thread completely.

Simplest solution is stop playing healers, let the useless simps keep healing the casual content until they make changes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kathryn

Example, I was just in World of Darkness and one raid had 2 scholars in it, they didnt bother healing at all and their raid kept wiping, only the raid I was healing and the other raid were always the last ones standing.

---

Wow, good point — it's almost like no matter how simple and easy you try to devolve a Role into, there will still be people who don't "get it" and don't try.

So why, then, did Healers have to be mechanically-devolved?

Doing so obviously didn't fix anything, because people were both wiping in World of Darkness, and also clearing World of Darkness, in... ARR... HW... and SB.

It's almost as if people are people and sometimes they'll fail at things, whether they have 1 DOT or 3 DOTs, and whether they need to use 3 GCD Heals or 3 OGCD Heals.

Perhaps, then, we should stop trying to design the game as if we're toddler-proofing our household, because you're not going to "fail-proof" the system, and it's inherently okay if imperfect play and lack of understanding causes a wipe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kes13a

hard to say, I have been to that dance before. "more hard" is relative. more hard does not make for an engaging play style.. just more frustrating. and will be the same dance with the same music.... likely for 2 years. I would happily be wrong, but I am not going to base my hopes on it.

---

If we wanted "MOAR HARD" they'd just make the game have open PvPvE and no gear binds. Which everyone in every MMO actually hates, but always ask why it's not a thing (simple, there's no antagonistic race/faction in the game that players can play.) In PvP healers are useless because they just get targeted first. Games that do PvPvE aren't successful unless they are sub-only+no-cash-shop, because you can't have people having their cash shop items looted, or it becomes a cash shop feature to bind items. The games just don't live very long once the bots overwhelm no-PVP part of the server.

What this game needs is to just simply level and ilevel sync all content past it's MSQ insertion point. ARR content is level synced to 50/ilevel 130 if any player in the party has not cleared it. That would keep "healing" and "tanking" at least on the level of where it's still necessary in roulettes.

That said, the most direct solution is to just strip tanks and DPS of any self-healing. Adjust all the MSQ solo content to have a healer NPC that activates only at 10% HP (tanks) or 40% HP (DPS.) Otherwise split the party mitigation between the tank and the healer so that the tank can only block physical damage and the healer can only block magical damage. Tank's primary job is holding enmity, Healer's primary job is healing. When encountering voidsent and undead you need the healer to do the mitigation. When encountering people with pointy sticks, the tank does the mitigation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThomasOfEger

Did you ever watch what Yoshi said about Dawntrail ? They made preview alpha version of some dungeon with statistics of warrior solo tanking dungeon without healer meanwhile Yoshi said whole developer team try to inspire with Elden Ring and how hard is to play it. Also he said few times Dawntrail will be more hard than any expansion before....maybe they dont want to scare people before release and players true experience. Maybe it will be really important to be a healer if Yoshi really said it will be hard....and honestly....i think it will be.

---

he confirmed in the LL on Friday that the MSQ dungeons would be par for the course, as expected (so not much harder), however once you reach lvl 100 dungeons, things would start to get spicier. As I explained before, is how it is. They wont do a sharp increase, it would be too shocking, especially in the future for those who know nothing of this discourse. It will increase gradually, and the 'harder' dungeons might be the ones that are optional and not part of the MSQ (like Smileton was not REQUIRED for MSQ in EW).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnnRam

Because healers complained since ARR -> Shb about :

—I'm a healer stop asking me for DPS.
—Remove cleric stance its giving me anxiety and then again I'm not a dps.
—This role is too hard and everyone is pointing at me , please make it easy.
—Please remove the dots what the hell man I refuse to do anything else besides healing.
—Stop telling me how to play my role and for the last time I'm not feeling good doing pulls to wall.

Now that SE fixed the issue people complains lol.

---

In all fairness, that wall-to-wall pulls exist is part of the garbage dungeon design template.

In content that were actually varied and encouraged actual combat decision-making, wall-to-wall pulls wouldn't really exist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kathryn

I personally dont care if some streamer who pretty much no lifes the game did a dungeon with no healer the game I play I still see healers failing to heal raid wide damage encounters causing raid wipes or even party wipes, just because a few people are bored of their role doesnt mean every single healer is a pro and their difficulty should be ramped up to appease the few.

More damage skills and more variety in what abilities used would be nice, but the alot of healers already playing cannot do this simple class as it is.

Example, I was just in World of Darkness and one raid had 2 scholars in it, they didnt bother healing at all and their raid kept wiping, only the raid I was healing and the other raid were always the last ones standing.

And the healerstrike thread just wants to be an echochamber instead of sharing ideas and thoughts so I thought it's best to let them have at it and ignore the thread completely.

---

And I blame Yoshi P for this. Fromsoftware has taught its playerbase how to play hard games without holding their hands. Yoshi P has taught healers to not worry or even care unless you're doing Save or Ultimate content.
And I've also seen crap tanks that spam their cd's and DPS with less dmg than healers. Kind of weird to base an entire class off of terrible players, when each class have terrible players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

He is doing single pulls. You can not do wall to wall pulling without a healer in this game even if overgeared.

---

Absolutely untrue (I say as a tank main for the last decade). It depends on which wall pull.

But old dungeons where they were a struggle were often doable with Clemency as a PLD if not on other tanks with TBN/Abyssal Drain and Bloodbath/Raw Intuition, but now they are just easier due to battle system changes.

Newer dungeons (Shadowbringers and Endwalker), large pulls can be handled by just tanks, including many of the ones in leveling dungeons (but there are certain pulls that could be a struggle or too difficult depending on technique). But a lot of them are easy due to not being leveling dungeons, which means the item level growth makes it a joke to do a big pull without a healer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by justausername

he confirmed in the LL on Friday that the MSQ dungeons would be par for the course, as expected (so not much harder), however once you reach lvl 100 dungeons, things would start to get spicier.

---

Specifically, he meant that the 2 sidequest expert dungeons would be harder. This is because they are not required for the MSQ. It should be noted that we don't get any other sidequest dungeons in the entire expansion, unless you include the 3 V&C dungeons.

He also mentioned content getting harder or more exciting in 7.2. But I think this should be taken in the context of sidequest content as well - raids, extremes and field operations. It should also be noted that this is quite normal. The first tier is intended to be easier, as are the first extreme trials, "because people are getting used to their new rotation" and the amount of new players they get.

It's honestly an easy fix and it can be tackled from many different ways.


1. Increase dungeon/AR, Damage and enemy health. Enemies would hitting harder would require more healing. This would cause healers to focus more on healing than spamming art of war.
or
2. Give healers more things to do. Give Scholar its dots back. Reduce amount of ogc for whm (this would make it have to hard cast more). Astro (idk yet). Give Sage an actual single target and aoe rotation. Absolutely zero reason why it doesn't have one. Even if it's a simple one.
or
3. Buff tank damage and reduce/remove (self sustain is fine but WAR is OP in this regard), their self sustain.


People play healer because they want to heal. Not because they want to do less damage than everyone else. So making healers have to focus more on healing than dps is the perfect fix for everything. People wouldn't mind a 1 button rotation if they didn't have to spend the majority of their time doing it.

I'm a healer main in everything. I've been a healer main in FF14 since it launched on PS4. Since Shadowbringners launched I don't touch healer unless I'm doing Savage or an Ultimate.
Scholar was my favourite class and it just doesn't feel fun to play anymore. Sure, in regards to healing, i's never been stronger. It is also a completely different class than ARR, and it's been dumbed down so much. Give me back my dots. The Dots and pet control added a uniqueness to Scholar that no other job had. It was a job built around micromanagement. Now, it's just WHM with extra steps.
I don't expect the pet control to comeback but you can give Scholar their dots.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Have you watched that run? He is doing single pulls. You can not do wall to wall pulling without a healer in this game even if overgeared.

---

This is just isn't true, If you actually played tank you'd know it's doable to wall to wall even on solo dark knight in some cases, I think you saw the first part where they literally forced to single pull because they were on a moving platform.

I bet you a warrior or even Paladin can wall to wall in the current experts with min item level enabled.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThomasOfEger

Did you ever watch what Yoshi said about Dawntrail ? They made preview alpha version of some dungeon with statistics of warrior solo tanking dungeon without healer meanwhile Yoshi said whole developer team try to inspire with Elden Ring and how hard is to play it. Also he said few times Dawntrail will be more hard than any expansion before....maybe they dont want to scare people before release and players true experience. Maybe it will be really important to be a healer if Yoshi really said it will be hard....and honestly....i think it will be.

---

Yoshida says a lot of things, that doesn't mean what he says is the reality. Their balance team literally kicks people for being too good at the game when it comes to non-ultimate content, what makes you think it is remotely believable that it's going to be 'harder than any other expansion before?' To who's standard? To people who would regularly clear savage on patch, or to people who can barely handle pressing a single button that would help the party?

Especially when he already said that there will never be another Thordan EX, that TG Cid was nerfed into the ground, and other, countless examples in casual content (some are good, like being able to revive on Titan) on why what he said is more than likely a statement to appease people who don't know better? People have been here for ten years, or even longer in my case, and while a lot of what he said is good thought and has been followed through, he is not reliable when it comes to how hard content will be since he honestly doesn't know as far as anyone is aware.

Don't believe what people say immediately when the proof is searched easily through youtube that it is not the case. It isn't even close.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnnRam

Because healers complained since ARR -> Shb about :

—I'm a healer stop asking me for DPS.
—Remove cleric stance its giving me anxiety and then again I'm not a dps.
—This role is too hard and everyone is pointing at me , please make it easy.
—Please remove the dots what the hell man I refuse to do anything else besides healing.
—Stop telling me how to play my role and for the last time I'm not feeling good doing pulls to wall.

Now that SE fixed the issue people complains lol.

---

This.

I've been playing this game for over a decade now, and the vast majority of healers you'd see on the forums and on casual content belonged to the camp of "I'm a healer, I didn't sign up to DPS".

Healers need to get together and figure out what they actually want:
- Fights that drain a lot of HP, apply debuffs, bleeds, so your gameplay focus is on healing and managing health-bars?
- Encounters that demand nothing of your healing, to the point the tank can sustain and you just dps with the occasional esuna?


Honestly, I don't blame healer mains. The devs should decide what they want their healers to do and stick to it already - it'd make it a lot easier for people to decide if it's the job for them or not.
I'm on the camp of enjoying dps, so I'd only play a healer with a more complex dps rotation, but as the poster above me said... For years, healers have been demanding DPS be optional, or non existent for them at all.

You reap what you sow, really.

Is the current healer role a bit boring, yes. Still using Xenos and his friends is a bad example, they are experienced raiders who have completed all the content. 95% of this playerbase wont be able to do this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rithy255

I bet you a warrior or even Paladin can wall to wall in the current experts with min item level enabled.

---

Having run it subsequently and been astounded at how much faster it went, I am reasonably confident that I did 90% of that in my first run of lapis manalis. It wasn’t particularly stressful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laerune

Xenos and his friends is a bad example, they are experienced raiders who have completed all the content. 95% of this playerbase wont be able to do this.

---

https://i.imgflip.com/1lccxa.jpg?a477240

https://youtu.be/2kII_JK9lgw?si=w9sZ9Luh5qRUjCb3&t=1119

if the outcry of helers say they want to heal and not dps im ok with that if square wants that to be the meta, but if thats the case can they stop balancing fights around healer dps and instead make it a tricky heal rotations where you dont want to waste certain CD in fear of needing them for upcoming tank-buster or raid wide?

honnestly its like square tried to listen to both sides and make them both happy, no more complicated dps rotations for healers, but mandatory dps windows for them... i would prefer the opposite personally, no requirement oh heals to dps for enrage, but heals get more dps buttons that they can engage with if they want too. then both sides can play how they see fit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laerune

Is the current healer role a bit boring, yes. Still using Xenos and his friends is a bad example, they are experienced raiders who have completed all the content. 95% of this playerbase wont be able to do this.

---

One doesn't need to be an experienced raider to press bloodwhetting on cooldown and AoE the whole mob pack to replenish 500% of one's HP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Laerune

Is the current healer role a bit boring, yes. Still using Xenos and his friends is a bad example, they are experienced raiders who have completed all the content. 95% of this playerbase wont be able to do this.

---

Ok, so, maybe many players won't be able to do this because of being new/casual players that can't press buttons. But saying 95% of players can't do this has got to be exaggerating. I could EASILY form a PF and find 3 other players that can do this, and they wouldn't need to be raiders. Just people that can press their buttons.

I've even seen this meme'd about in novice networks, linkshells, CWLS, and FCs over the last several years. About just taking a Warrior in with 3 DPS as if it's the norm to them. And seen PFs for it occasionally. Xeno does it because it's the ongoing meme to do it and participating in meme culture is what streamers do.

Everyone has said tanks are the issue and while agree with warriors are waaaaaay over tuned healing wise. Dark knights have had no changes to there sustain. The healing you receive from tanking should be I'd around 85% healed 15% sustain. Not the other way around. And since dark knight has no real sustain, we'll if there are no healers playing then there's no reason to play dark knight. Just my opinion.

What frustrates me most is that ‘strong class identity’ and ‘simplicity in execution’ are not mutually exclusive.

We can have classes/jobs that are easy to pick up and understand but still have unique skill sets that contribute to a class identity.

There’s no reason why we have to have classes that are both extremely simplified and so heavily homogenised

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mrjokerswild

Everyone has said tanks are the issue and while agree with warriors are waaaaaay over tuned healing wise. Dark knights have had no changes to there sustain. The healing you receive from tanking should be I'd around 85% healed 15% sustain. Not the other way around. And since dark knight has no real sustain, we'll if there are no healers playing then there's no reason to play dark knight. Just my opinion.

---

Hey now, I have solo'd the Amaurot last boss as a DRK multiple times.

TBN can give you enough time to recover with Souleater, but it requires far more skill to manage your cooldowns correctly for the big hits. Which is how it should be. It shouldn't be that a new player just does it without a healer blindfolded. It should only be enough self-healing if you successfully time the mit for the big hits phase of the boss rotation.

When I mained it in Shadowbringers, there were genuinely a lot of level 80 dungeons where I didn't really need a healer as a DRK as well, due to TBN+Shadow Wall and the item level disparity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnnRam

Because healers complained since ARR -> Shb about :

—I'm a healer stop asking me for DPS.
—Remove cleric stance its giving me anxiety and then again I'm not a dps.
—This role is too hard and everyone is pointing at me , please make it easy.
—Please remove the dots what the hell man I refuse to do anything else besides healing.
—Stop telling me how to play my role and for the last time I'm not feeling good doing pulls to wall.

Now that SE fixed the issue people complains lol.

---

Hmm no comment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Odstarva

This.

I've been playing this game for over a decade now, and the vast majority of healers you'd see on the forums and on casual content belonged to the camp of "I'm a healer, I didn't sign up to DPS".

Healers need to get together and figure out what they actually want:
- Fights that drain a lot of HP, apply debuffs, bleeds, so your gameplay focus is on healing and managing health-bars?
- Encounters that demand nothing of your healing, to the point the tank can sustain and you just dps with the occasional esuna?


Honestly, I don't blame healer mains. The devs should decide what they want their healers to do and stick to it already - it'd make it a lot easier for people to decide if it's the job for them or not.
I'm on the camp of enjoying dps, so I'd only play a healer with a more complex dps rotation, but as the poster above me said... For years, healers have been demanding DPS be optional, or non existent for them at all.

You reap what you sow, really.

---

If this is the case then they should make healing interesting. Like, I said in another post. Nerf/remove tanks sustain, buff tank damage, and buff enemy damage (in dungeons/AR). This would force healers to focus more on actually healing than dps. The 1 button dps rotation is bad because it used 80% of the time in 80% of content. If that percentage can be lowered to say 20% usage in 80% of content then nobody would care. And the tank dps buff would balance out the missing healer damage.

Legit win win for everyone. Tanks get more damage, healers get to heal more, and dungeons become harder, without the need for changing mechanics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mrjokerswild

Everyone has said tanks are the issue and while agree with warriors are waaaaaay over tuned healing wise. Dark knights have had no changes to there sustain. The healing you receive from tanking should be I'd around 85% healed 15% sustain. Not the other way around. And since dark knight has no real sustain, we'll if there are no healers playing then there's no reason to play dark knight. Just my opinion.

---

People keep saying that DRK has nothing, but DRK actually has abyssal drain for every big pull to regen what got through TBN spamm.

As for 2 pulls out of 6, they can just LD and live the WAR's life to the fullest.