Sage 7.0 Preliminary Feedback

Before I say anything, I will preface this with a disclaimer that without knowing the specifics of any new actions or changes to existing actions, I cannot speak too specifically to what has been seen. Having said that, we do know about what already exists, and can make some speculations about what is new. So with that being said, here are my current thoughts on Sage's revealed changes thus far:

The Flaws of 6.0 Sage
Before its release, Sage was described as being a barrier healer with an emphasis on healing through DPS. It was also stated that feedback regarding the lack of variety in healer DPS abilities was an area of feedback being acknowledged during the development of the job. Despite this, Sage does not feel any more active with its DPS performance than any other, and its healing style has felt far too similar to Scholar's. This has resulted in the following flaws:
- Sage spends too much time spamming Dosis spells. It did not succeed at appealing to the players critical of Shadowbringers healer design that the job was specifically targeting.
- Sage focuses too much on Addersgall healing--healing that is neither connected to DPSing nor barrier application, and its connection to MP management has made it oppressive to the other healing resources available to Sage.
- Addersting is a terrible gauge mechanic due to its reliance on Sage's worst healing actions, massive loss in outgoing damage to actively generate, and largely nonexistent impact on Sage's performance even in the best case scenarios. It is massively similar to White Mage's lilies from Stormblood, a gauge that was reworked for Shadowbringers. Both relied on weak and ineffective healing tools to generate resources of minuscule impact.

Sage 7.0 Job Actions Reveal
Dawntrail has introduced 3 new actions for Sage: a new AOE attack, Eukrasian Dyskrasia as an AOE DOT, and AOE Kardia. In addition to this, Soteria's cooldown is being reduced. These are my initial thoughts:
- I'm happy to see two new attack spells. My hope is that both will play a frequent role in Sage's DPS gameplay in both AOE and single target scenarios. I cannot deny that I am doubtful of this, but I will withhold my reservations nevertheless.
- AOE Kardia is also a nice addition. I would love for this to become Sage's primary method of healing to better reinforce its proclaimed identity of "healing through DPS." Given how abundant Addersgall is and how spending them restores MP, I am also doubtful that this will take the place of more powerful healing resources like Kerachole and Ixochole which otherwise clash with Sage's identity.

Recommendations before Launch
While there is still a lot of information still left unsaid, I'd like to give my personal recommendations based on the given information about how to approach Sage upon Dawntrail's official launch date. I hope these recommendations are redundant with already made changes that have simply yet to be discussed:

1. Make adjustments to Addersting and Toxikon/Toxikon II to make Addersting an important resource and a regular part of Sage's gameplay. Addersting should be a resource I want to generate, not one I actively avoid. In order for this to be true, the strength of Toxikon and Toxikon II needs to increase drastically, or these should become OGCD attacks like in PVP and from the Endwalker instance battle with Alphinaud as the playable character. Additionally, Addersting generation would need to be restricted in some capacity in order to prevent spamming the generation and spending of Addersting.

2. Reduce the duration of Eukrasian Dosis I, II, and III to 15 seconds, and reduce the cooldown of Phlegma to 20 seconds. Making these already existing attacks more frequent is a fast and easy way to improve the state of Sage's gameplay and could be done in seconds. These in conjecture with the new attacks can do a lot in the way of making Sage out to be the aggressive DPS healer it was marketed as.

3. Consider reworking Pneuma into an actual DPS attack. Sage's apex animation should feel like a powerful tool in their arsenal, but because it is DPS neutral with Dosis III, it just ends up feeling like a glorified Cure III that is rarely used. The healing effects could be taken off Pneuma and placed onto a follow up heal perhaps, but I'd like to see Pneuma become an active part in Sage's damage rotation.

4. Redirect the emphasis of power away from Addergall and into other healing resources that better compliment Sage's identity. For example, perhaps the cooldown of Addersgall should be increased and the MP restoration should be removed and placed elsewhere in Sage's kit in order to redirect the focus on healing style toward things that compliment Sage's identity, such as this new AOE Kardia effect or barrier application.

5. Take inspiration from Gunbreaker when planning for 8.0. Gunbreaker is also not a DPS, but has a playstyle designed to be aggressive and feel like a DPS. Sage should be the same, which is not to say its DPS abilities should look the same, but rather, it should aim to feel like a caster DPS light much like how Gunbreaker feels like a melee DPS light.

I completely agree on the recommendations but I can't stress enough how impactful (1) and (2) could be

(1) Its the less likely to happen but rn Sage avoids addersting like a plague.
You use your toxikons to move when needed and avoid generating them during uptime because its a dps loss, which in fights with full uptime more often than not means 3 or less uses (because toxikon itself isn't a gain on single target either), for a job that only has 2 gauges having one of them dedicated to be used only 3 times unless there is downtime is awful and makes the job feel underdeveloped. There must be better ways to generate toxikon and there must be a better reward from using it.

(2) Its really easy to implement with just minor numerical adjustments but it could go a long way to help sage feel unique alongside the new attacks.
Right now at a 2.5s GCD we have 48 gcds, out of those 3 are used on phlegma and 4 are used on the dot meaning that we have 41/48 GCDS being dosis spam, a bit over 85% of them. With the reduced cds we would use 6 phelgma and 8dots so only 34/48 GCDs could be used for dosis, a 70% of them, just by doing simple math adjustments the spam has been lowered by a 15%.
If the new dot and attack can be used on single target too that can lower the nuke spam even further, making the job fantasy feel more complete and without increasing much the skill floor

Those 2 recommendations alone, if applied could help Sage feel like a better and unique job instead of Sch 2, something the job desperately needs

I'd like these new changes to cement SGE as the heal by dps healer or at least BE the dps healer. Especially better Addersting generation. PLEASE.

I do have a question (or two) for SGE mains though:

• Would you like your DoT(s?) to be your HoT(s)? In that for every tick of damage it heals tank/party?
  
• Would you like Dykrasia(sp) and Phlegma (all your AoE damage really) to be... akin to Bloodwhetting? Where in for every enemy you hit you heal tank/party/Kardia target.

Personally when SGE was announced these were the things I was expecting. Would they be welcomed or unnecessary? Something closer to SGE's idea or a bit too far from the mark?

Also.. I thought Phlegma already was 20s? Or am I thinking of a different skill?

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

I'd like these new changes to cement SGE as the heal by dps healer or at least BE the dps healer. Especially better Addersting generation. PLEASE.

I do have a question (or two) for SGE mains though:

• Would you like your DoT(s?) to be your HoT(s)? In that for every tick of damage it heals tank/party?
  
• Would you like Dykrasia(sp) and Phlegma (all your AoE damage really) to be... akin to Bloodwhetting? Where in for every enemy you hit you heal tank/party/Kardia target.

Personally when SGE was announced these were the things I was expecting. Would they be welcomed or unnecessary? Something closer to SGE's idea or a bit too far from the mark?

Also.. I thought Phlegma already was 20s? Or am I thinking of a different skill?

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In regards to your questions, I feel like Kardia is already a HOT. Making it so the DOT triggers smaller healing per tic on your Kardia feels redundant with that. And truthfully, I want healing through Kardia to be something I am choosing to do rather than something that is a consequence of performing what I would already otherwise be doing anyway. And I don't really need AOE attacks to trigger per enemy hit either. AOE is an afterthought in this game, so it really doesn't make a difference for what is the focal point of combat anyway, and we really don't need more healing sources right now. In short, those changes are things that are irrelevant to me, I'm sorry to put down your ideas so harshly.

I think to make Sage more focused on Kardia healing, I would rework Addersgall completely. Instead of being blatantly copied from Scholar's Aetherflow, I'd want them to be ways to support Kardia healing. Like Soteria and this new AOE Kardia being Addersgall spenders instead. Make that my primary go-to for healing.

Also, Phlegma is 40 seconds with 2 charges currently. There's no word on if that's changed for Dawntrail at this time. Basically I am proposing cutting the duration/cooldown of the existing DPS tools in half to double their use.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

In regards to your questions, I feel like Kardia is already a HOT. Making it so the DOT triggers smaller healing per tic on your Kardia feels redundant with that. And truthfully, I want healing through Kardia to be something I am choosing to do rather than something that is a consequence of performing what I would already otherwise be doing anyway. And I don't really need AOE attacks to trigger per enemy hit either. AOE is an afterthought in this game, so it really doesn't make a difference for what is the focal point of combat anyway, and we really don't need more healing sources right now. In short, those changes are things that are irrelevant to me, I'm sorry to put down your ideas so harshly.

I think to make Sage more focused on Kardia healing, I would rework Addersgall completely. Instead of being blatantly copied from Scholar's Aetherflow, I'd want them to be ways to support Kardia healing. Like Soteria and this new AOE Kardia being Addersgall spenders instead. Make that my primary go-to for healing.

Also, Phlegma is 40 seconds with 2 charges currently. There's no word on if that's changed for Dawntrail at this time. Basically I am proposing cutting the duration/cooldown of the existing DPS tools in half to double their use.

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Can't say I disagree with it being a choice over "it just happens". I suppose I was wanting more of a Chloromancer type healer, stripping SGE of things like its HoT and Addersgall heals in place of healing by damage play style with buffs/debuffs you'd place on the party/enemy to achieve that.

Making Addersgall interact with Kardia wouldn't be a bad alternative. It'd certainly be more interesting than what it is now. If that's to be the case, what would you propose to in-classly (ew that's a horribly made up word) generate mana? For as crappy as Astrodyne is it IS a class based Lucid Dreaming and I wouldn't say no to seeing more of that (as long as its interactive of course, like ice stance in BLM... kinda, that also feels a bit forced but I digress).

And absolutely reduce Phlegma's cool down. Or... nah just reduce it. I have 0 ideas for Toxicon honestly. In an ideal world it being tied to shields wouldn't be a bad thing, because that would be how SGE "heals". Shield you up to soften the blow so Kardia heals can top you off and you'd gain the DPS abilities to do so. There'd be a point to it. I don't want it to be another Misery (where you use Addersgall to proc one). I'd LIKE to keep shield breaking as AN option to generate it, but I want more ways to do so that rewards the SGE for... something. I'm torn between saying good DPS vs good healing because if I say the latter it stays the same.

Anyway, using GNB as a model for it in some capacity would be nice. Maybe its weaker on the heals (not happening I bet) compared to its peers, but still gets the job done and has a fun rotation to boot.

Yes! This is very well done! You basically explained what was the main problem with 6.0 Sage and how to further improve the job going into 8.0.

For your first and second points on the recommendations before launch, I agree with them the most. We need to have the DoT timers decreased down to the 12 to 24 second range (this applies for all jobs). Having Phlegma's cooldown decreased to 20 seconds would be a tremendous boon too. And Toxikon also need to be worth using. The Addersting mechanic is one of the most disappointing things about the job. Converting it to an oGCD helps, though if that we to happen, we may see a potency decrease. If Toxikon I / II were to remain a GCD ability, it needs to do something more than just a simple DPS movement spell. Maybe have the ability decrease the CD timer of Phelgma or have Toxicon's Potency increase with your DoT up.

Speaking of DoTs, I hope that our new AoE DoT does not overlap with the single target DoT. I want the two to stack. If not, make it important to have one of the DoTs up at all times. Maybe have Toxicon's potency increase on enemy NPCs if you have your DoT up, as I mentioned above.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Making Addersgall interact with Kardia wouldn't be a bad alternative. It'd certainly be more interesting than what it is now. If that's to be the case, what would you propose to in-classly (ew that's a horribly made up word) generate mana? For as crappy as Astrodyne is it IS a class based Lucid Dreaming and I wouldn't say no to seeing more of that (as long as its interactive of course, like ice stance in BLM... kinda, that also feels a bit forced but I digress).

Anyway, using GNB as a model for it in some capacity would be nice. Maybe its weaker on the heals (not happening I bet) compared to its peers, but still gets the job done and has a fun rotation to boot.

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An ability that consumes Addersgall to restore MP instead of augmenting your heals is what I'd go for. I also think having a hardcasted MP refresh or flat MP regeneration spell would be a welcome change to all the healers allowing you to control MP rather than adhere to its schedule, which is what Lucid Dreaming enforces. The idea would be that there are more ways to spend large amounts of MP in order to meet your healing requirements while maintaining your DPS momentum. This would require a delicate balance of resource management, and failure to do so would not hurt your ability to heal, but would cost you DPS, and effectively undo that momentum you were building. It allows for MP to actually matter as a resource without threatening players with total failure due to lack of healing.

As for the Gunbreaker model and weaker heals... I think the key factor should be in utility provided. Basically I think every healer should have some unique form of utility that is "theirs." Scholar already has this in expedient, giving you a way to increase the party's room for error when addressing certain types of mechanics. Astrologian also kinda has this with Macrocosmos. While it is a heal, it has the unique quality of being able to bypass Infirmity debuffs. Unfortunately we only saw this matter in exactly one fight, P3S. But I think if infirmity were more commonly utilized, a healer who can bypass that for heal checks is a form of utility. Though truthfully, I feel this type of utility makes more sense on White Mage. If I had it my way, infirmity heal checks would be common, and White Mage can pierce it. As for what I'd give to Astrologian in that case, I really like the idea of Float: a party-wide buff that makes everyone immune to puddle and floor damage. This is also not as commonly needed since many fights don't have these, but if they were more common, this could be a really unique way of letting the party position themselves effectively when dealing with certain mechanics.

As for what that leaves Sage with, I'd make them the Black Mage of the healers in the sense that, they'd offer no form of unique utility like the above examples. They cannot grant a party sprint, make the party immune to floor damage, or pierce infirmity. Instead, their damage output would be a couple steps higher, allowing them to help the party meet enrages a little more easily. Though I want to be clear that the difference in damage should not be as extreme as Black Mage and Red Mage. SE doesn't understand the concept of restraint when it comes to DPS taxes, but if it were balanced properly, each form of utility available to the other healers should feel like a balanced trade-off for that extra damage.

I'm praying the aoe Kardia isn't a lv90+ ability and is retroactively adjusted to be there when you unlock the job/lv sync lower. Not every "new toy" each expansion has to be exclusive to the last 10 levels.

Can I also just say as an aside, I really love how Viper's burst looks. Obviously, that's a melee DPS and not a healer, but imagine if Sage had something like the following:

Two GCD spells that all do the same damage and have 1.5 second cast times. One has no MP cost, one has an MP cost of 800 and provides a stacking barrier effect for each use of this spell to a certain max set of stacks. Three different OGCD attacks with slightly different effects. You trigger a burst window where you get to cast one of those two GCD attacks 5 times in a row of your choosing, and each time you do, one of the three OGCD attacks is randomly enabled for you to weave between each spell cast. The end result in something similar: a hyper fast burst window where each cast, you can either go for cheap damage or spend excess MP to add barrier layers to the party. Pepsis can also detonate these barriers for healing based on the amount of stacks.

How I wish Sage had something really exciting like that.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

5. Take inspiration from Gunbreaker when planning for 8.0. Gunbreaker is also not a DPS, but has a playstyle designed to be aggressive and feel like a DPS.

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My friend in Hydaelyn. Gunbreaker does not have an "aggressive" playstyle.

An aggressive tank would have its ability to protect other party members depend on it's ability to hold aggro and deal damage. PLD's auto-attacks feeding into Oath feeding into Intervention (or Cover). DRK's MP regen attacks feeding into TBN. Those are both far more aggressive than anything in GNB's kit.

GNB is little more than a disconnected collection of damage dealing buttons and utility buttons. There's less connection than WHM's Misery, SCH's Energy Drain, and SGE's Toxicon.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

As for the Gunbreaker model and weaker heals... I think the key factor should be in utility provided. Basically I think every healer should have some unique form of utility that is "theirs." Scholar already has this in expedient, giving you a way to increase the party's room for error when addressing certain types of mechanics. Astrologian also kinda has this with Macrocosmos. While it is a heal, it has the unique quality of being able to bypass Infirmity debuffs. Unfortunately we only saw this matter in exactly one fight, P3S. But I think if infirmity were more commonly utilized, a healer who can bypass that for heal checks is a form of utility. Though truthfully, I feel this type of utility makes more sense on White Mage. If I had it my way, infirmity heal checks would be common, and White Mage can pierce it. As for what I'd give to Astrologian in that case, I really like the idea of Float: a party-wide buff that makes everyone immune to puddle and floor damage. This is also not as commonly needed since many fights don't have these, but if they were more common, this could be a really unique way of letting the party position themselves effectively when dealing with certain mechanics.

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Mmm I don't disagree, but my outlook on healer is more... "they can all heal but do so differently". While the differing utility is nice, as you've mention we barely have fights where they would shine so while nice, I don't think it should be what we're aiming for.

To best explain it, lets use your Macrocosmos example. I don't see it as a utility to bypass a heal check. I see it more as AST is able to heal this better than the other healers in this situation due to how their heal works. And thus, I'd like the other healers to have something similar. (Further, rather than a compile heal I'd like for Macro to be more of a Rewind and perhaps give the compile aspect to WHM's Lily Bell but that gets really messy and diverts from the point).

That said, I do think it'd be nice for us to bring utility like Expedient.

Tangent aside, I agree that SGE could still not bring anything other than DPS. They don't need a party buff (a la Divination/Chain - PLEASE KEEP AOE KARDIA) and I can't say I'd like them to be the supportive healer. That fits WHM and AST a bit more (with SCH also being a bit more damage oriented but not quite as much as SGE).

/shrug

MP idea is above my head. Its something I'd have to play with and may require tweaks depending upon how MP heavy SGE is. Or healers for that matter (cause I assume most of these abilities would cost MP and not CD only which would be a nice change, mana management). And having unique ways of doing so - like Addersgall into MP or Ewer back (SE >> Do it). Perhaps something interesting for Thin Air for WHM and SCH is... above my paygrade. Just something different to SGE (unless it can stay the same, maybe something with Fae Gauge?).

Anyroad, these ideas are a start to a better SGE and hopefully we get that with 8.0.

I just want an instant addersgall to addersting skill, give it a hefty cd dont care just... Gib Me Et!...

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

My friend in Hydaelyn. Gunbreaker does not have an "aggressive" playstyle.

An aggressive tank would have its ability to protect other party members depend on it's ability to hold aggro and deal damage. PLD's auto-attacks feeding into Oath feeding into Intervention (or Cover). DRK's MP regen attacks feeding into TBN. Those are both far more aggressive than anything in GNB's kit.

GNB is little more than a disconnected collection of damage dealing buttons and utility buttons. There's less connection than WHM's Misery, SCH's Energy Drain, and SGE's Toxicon.

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I mean, fair. But it's the closest we have, and it's not that bad in the sense of having too similar a rotation to the other tanks, or no rotation at all. It has problems, but those are more because of how its resource management pans out.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Mmm I don't disagree, but my outlook on healer is more... "they can all heal but do so differently". While the differing utility is nice, as you've mention we barely have fights where they would shine so while nice, I don't think it should be what we're aiming for.

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I do agree with this as well. I think we could absolutely do more to foster a stronger identity for healing styles, but I talk about the utility aspect more because that ultimately pans into the balance of things.

For actual healing styles, I'd like to take a route like this:

White Mage: High potency pure healing with the unique mechanic "Overcure." Where their main methods of healing extend max HP based on a percentage of overhealing (based on the White Mage's max HP).

Scholar: Barrier healing based on one large, singular barrier granted at a time. Bring spells like Adloquium and Succor back into the limelight for Scholar's healing.

Astrologian: HOTs and delayed healing effects. Astro is probably the healer that accomplishes this the most effectively currently.

Sage: Layered barriers, like how Haima and Panhaima work, but granted through DPS spells. Perhaps you apply stacks with one attack, and can use a different attack to trigger those stacks as barriers, and those barriers also restore a little HP when they break.

I think there's just too much overlap being handed out and not enough focus on what healing style best suits each healer.

Yeah you're spot-on with the lily gauge comparison. It was awful when that came out and I was playing whm at that time and we had this gauge that could only progress through abilities we really didn't use. Now sge has the same problem with Addersting. Addersting acquisition just isn't integrated well into the flow of the skills that are actually used. I'm hoping that just like lilies were improved, we'll see something done about Addersting.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

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I'd like the styles tbh. Wishful thinking has me wanting SCH to be barrier based with pet healing to suppliment (not enough to where it can replace them mind you) because I still want a pet heal job but I'll take SCH being an actual barrier healer over nothing.

I think my major concern with the utility is that it relies too much on encounter design and the dev team is horrible at that.

Like a lot of the problems we currently have wouldn't have been a problem if they actually designed fights to where a class within a role can shine in differing ways. Like RDM is good in this raid for X buff, MCH is good in Y raid for X mitigation etc etc so weaknesses and strengths can mean something and blah blah blah.

Float would be nice as a utility, but I can't think of a single fight where just basic movement wouldn't invalidate it. Sure you can make the same arguement for Expedient (and I KNOW its been said already) and I'm sure it has the same problems and the fact that, while yes the party could pop sprint or just move but having the ability to have SCH or AST (or WHM) do it and plan around that is nice and all and I don't want to take that away...

With this dev team I'm personally not wanting to invest in it, if that makes sense.

I don't think I'd argue against it otherwise though.

Anyway, yes to SGE being more of the GNB or SAM or BLM of healers please. They already feel that way in PvP may as well extend it to PvE. AoE Kardia is a nice step, but we can and should have more.

I feel like SGE already won as far as healers are concerned for having a new offensive action that is not gated behind a ridiculous cooldown.

Ideally, the AoE DoT will still be worth using in single target scenarios like Aero III was and stack with Eukrasian Dosis (Seems likely considering you can still see it expiring after the new DoT is applied in the trailer), but even if that isn't the case I'll at least have something else to press during dungeon spam.

Eukrasian Dyskrasia's (lol) dot is a whole other spell from Eukrasian Dosis, so they should be stackable. GNB and PLD back when Goring Blade was a dot stack without issue.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

Eukrasian Dyskrasia's (lol) dot is a whole other spell from Eukrasian Dosis, so they should be stackable. GNB and PLD back when Goring Blade was a dot stack without issue.

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The question remains whether it’s a gain over Dosis casts in ST situations. If it’s a loss then they would’ve missed the mark cause it’ll be another ‘dead AoE button’ in bosses.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I feel like SGE already won as far as healers are concerned for having a new offensive action that is not gated behind a ridiculous cooldown.

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I don’t really care who won the bread lottery at the shelter. Because these jobs are still malnourished and in need of shelter, and until they are housed and well fed, I will continue to ask for better treatment.

I'm glad that Sage got 3/3 all things I really wanted for the job. The only thing that I would like to see now is a spell that procs multiple Kardion ticks. Something that multi hits for sure and optionally might act like a Six-Sided Star, long GCD recovery for fun and weaving in extra OGCDs.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

The question remains whether it’s a gain over Dosis casts in ST situations. If it’s a loss then they would’ve missed the mark cause it’ll be another ‘dead AoE button’ in bosses.

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The only thing giving me hope is that if it were AOE exclusive, I'm not sure why they wouldn't do the same for the other healers. That feels like something they'd streamline. Which makes me want to believe it's a part of Sage's general rotation.

I just want to emphasize that seeing Sage become the healer that it was originally described as being, or the healer that it feels like in PVP is the single most important aspect of FFXIV to me. Now, few people are likely going to resonate with that statement. Or at the very least, they might resonate with that feeling for a different job. And that's okay. This game isn't just about me, and what's most important to other players is entirely valid, but I can only speak for myself, and I cannot stress enough how important this is to me and how much I want to see Sage improve by seeing those flaws mentioned in my original post addressed at the earliest possible opportunity.

I guess my point is, while there are many people who may prioritize the graphics update, the story, glamour, group content, solo content, or one of the many other aspects of this game, there are also players like me who are most passionate about the actual experience and identity of a given job--or multiple jobs perhaps. I just wish our concerns were being as openly discussed and addressed as the players who were upset with the benchmark character creator.

What made me quit the game back in 6.2 is because of all the failed promises this expansion. SGE was one of those failed promises, seeing that it failed to live up to the expectations of being the DPS Healer that we were promised. Same can be said for the other Healers as well as they didn't get much when entering EW. Same thing happened with a few other Jobs too (DRK for example) but given Healer was my main Job, I was disappointed in EW. I didn't care for the housing or solo content, the story, or the new graphics update. Don't get me wrong, the story and graphics update are good things (Venat is my favorite character in EW's story); however, I care more for the overall gameplay for the Healer role.

And I'm not just talking about DPS rotation either. Healers need to heal more too.

Seeing the Job Action trailer gave me some hope that we do have a chance in making the role better. SGE and WHM appearing to be going in the right direction, though some additional changes still need to be made. SCH and AST are unknown, so we'll have to wait and see, but I really REALLY want SGE to be the DPS healer that was promised.

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Originally Posted by currentlemon

What made me quit the game back in 6.2 is because of all the failed promises this expansion. SGE was one of those failed promises, seeing that it failed to live up to the expectations of being the DPS Healer that we were promised. Same can be said for the other Healers as well as they didn't get much when entering EW. Same thing happened with a few other Jobs too (DRK for example) but given Healer was my main Job, I was disappointed in EW. I didn't care for the housing or solo content, the story, or the new graphics update. Don't get me wrong, the story and graphics update are good things (Venat is my favorite character in EW's story); however, I care more for the overall gameplay for the Healer role.

And I'm not just talking about DPS rotation either. Healers need to heal more too.

Seeing the Job Action trailer gave me some hope that we do have a chance in making the role better. SGE and WHM appearing to be going in the right direction, though some additional changes still need to be made. SCH and AST are unknown, so we'll have to wait and see, but I really REALLY want SGE to be the DPS healer that was promised.

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I agree. I think there is a little more leeway we can be giving right now to the design team for finally allowing healers to explore more offensive tools. Not to say that the criticism that's been given is unwarranted, because it absolutely is. I myself have been very critical. But we finally got some new attacks, and this is the very first expansion where the basic attack spell isn't forced to have an obligatory upgrade. These are good things even if what we see isn't truly addressing the situation. I want to talk about it more once we actually have the tooltips from the media tour, but I want to both encourage this direction while also still standing firm to the point that these are not enough to actually fix the problem being referenced, unless there are more significant changes not yet said, but that seems very unlikely at this point. I don't know, I have a lot of emotions about the live letter. I think more than anything this mention of exploring identity more in 8.0 kinda pissed me off because that's another 2.5 years of lukewarm job design with likely no assurance that anything of value will come of it. I'm tired of waiting for job design to be revitalized.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I agree. I think there is a little more leeway we can be giving right now to the design team for finally allowing healers to explore more offensive tools. Not to say that the criticism that's been given is unwarranted, because it absolutely is. I myself have been very critical. But we finally got some new attacks, and this is the very first expansion where the basic attack spell isn't forced to have an obligatory upgrade. These are good things even if what we see isn't truly addressing the situation. I want to talk about it more once we actually have the tooltips from the media tour, but I want to both encourage this direction while also still standing firm to the point that these are not enough to actually fix the problem being referenced, unless there are more significant changes not yet said, but that seems very unlikely at this point. I don't know, I have a lot of emotions about the live letter. I think more than anything this mention of exploring identity more in 8.0 kinda pissed me off because that's another 2.5 years of lukewarm job design with likely no assurance that anything of value will come of it. I'm tired of waiting for job design to be revitalized.

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Don't get too stressed out when it comes to the Devs and Job Design. While Yoshi-P and the Devs deserve a lot of criticism (and rage) over the current version of Job Design, all we can do is continue to provide feedback even if they don't appear to listen from time to time.

One of my local priest's made it very clear to me as to not get too worked up or upset / angry over things that you cannot personally change. I get current Job Design are a mess now, but we cannot personally demand any more BIG changes to all Jobs now that DT is close to release. Feedback is the only thing that we can do at the moment, especially now that the Media Tour is starting soon. We can start with something small, such as lowering the DoT timers on all Healer Jobs.

It's funny. Out of all the roles in the game, Healers seem to be the most well thought out and organized in my opinion when it comes to providing criticism and feedback of the role. The "Summary of Healer Issues" thread and the "If You Want Engaging Healing, Play Ultimate" thread are a step above the other Jobs / Roles in the official forum as they cover why Healers are so criticized today in good detail (though there is a Dark Knight Megathread on the Tank forms).

I'm a bit curious what the CD on the other new offensive ability SGE got is gonna be like because it seems to be a standalone button rather then tied to another cooldown like with the other healers.

I wouldn't mind Druochole Taurochole Kerachole and Ixochole being GCD spells that gives Addersting charges, and having a Eukrasian version that turns them into DPS spells. It would introduce a bit of decision making in what we do with Addergall stacks, because I usually just use them for the MP.
(Could Pepsis detonate DoTs on enemies with a bit of added potency?)
Toxikon should be DPS neutral, Pneuma should have a bit more potency than Dosis (with the healing reduced if needed, or applying a group-wide kardia instead?).

The partywide Kardia was on my wishlist, I just hope it isn't on a long CD.

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Originally Posted by currentlemon

Seeing the Job Action trailer gave me some hope that we do have a chance in making the role better. SGE and WHM appearing to be going in the right direction, though some additional changes still need to be made. SCH and AST are unknown, so we'll have to wait and see, but I really REALLY want SGE to be the DPS healer that was promised.

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The problem with the proposed design is that SGE's will only bad that way post lvl 90. In the vast majority of playtime, they won't be. That's the issue with having all these fun toys come in late.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

The problem with the proposed design is that SGE's will only bad that way post lvl 90. In the vast majority of playtime, they won't be. That's the issue with having all these fun toys come in late.

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As I mentioned in one of my points, that issue could be noticeably improved if we halve the DOT duration/cooldown of E. Dosis spells and Phlegma spells respectively, as well as fix the embarrassingly bad Addersting system so that Toxicon spells are a regular part of your gameplay. In other words, if you make Sage play like it does in PVP, that will make it feel a lot more active in PVE. Add in E. Dyskrasia as a DOT worth stacking with E. Dosis, which may come at an earlier level, and that can be decently sufficient.