New dawntrial job changes are underwhelming and im not excited

little edit here - i made a strawpoll and id like very much if you guys could vote on it your feedback about this pll. the poll will always be visable so the devs can see what the feedback is
https://strawpoll.com/61gDmWebzZw

what we needed wasn't another skill on top of every other skill to do more damage. what we needed was a job design overhaul and rework of job identity. this has not only been lost so far, but in dt will be even further lost as healers homogenise even more. whm becomes a sage with wings, sch now has enshroud :confused: and every finisher just gets a new finisher.

its to late now for DT.. this is what we have and it wont be changed in time. so we can only hope 8.0 will make the notable changes the game needs.

talking mainly about the removal of dps checks on bosses.
lets talk about why those dps checks are an issue
they limit the amount of playstyles you can run with because everything needs to be about damage.
this creates meta damage builds that eliminate all creative pathing from jobs forcing your rotation to make you feel like a mindless zombie in pve just hitting the same buttons over and over. the players are sick of this, and the game feels like your in a half asleep trance not really playing just.. doing it.

jobs should perhaps go down skill tree paths, allowing people to customize HOW we play the job. this is something i like in wow (i dont play it but i was my bf build specs on it) obv i dont want to build healer tanks, but why not be able to build tanks that can mitigate more damage, do more damage, or heal party members. if you remove the dps checks from fights, then people will be able to make there job without fear of being penalized.

perhaps adding variables to fights, like for example this week the boss does increased aoe damage, or this week healing potency is reduced. these are just raw ideas. but doing this could already allow for some customization of your jobs. it saddens me that this company is made up of experienced game designers who cannot program a good combat system.. maybe 3.0 really WAS better

Company that historically does not listen to player feedback once again does not listen to player feedback, players shocked by this turn of events

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Company that historically does not listen to player feedback once again does not listen to player feedback, players shocked by this turn of events

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I mean, they do listen to feedback. But anything that isn't battle or job related. It's as, if they're just ignoring any feedback about healers in the past 4 years.
Meanwhile, criticizing the benchmark and character creator is enough to rework the whole thing.

Mnk looks amazing what are you talking about.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Mnk looks amazing what are you talking about.

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i feel like this is sarcasm, i like the changes to monk personally but the overall job design on it still isnt my thing. but yes im defiantly excited for it. the problem is monk will just allways be, this kinda monk. in this style of combat, u want to be a buff monk with less dps? no. ur a guy using gokus dragon fist on a wooden dummy and ur gona like it

I'm personally more excited for DT job updates than I was for EW. I feel like there is plenty I want to try on release! BLM, MNK, RPR, SCH, AST, PLD, GNB mainly and the rest later as time goes.

Viper would look cool if you could see what was going on

https://i.imgur.com/U9J2XAb.png
https://i.imgur.com/XO57P2U.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/AfZShE6.png

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

i feel like this is sarcasm, i like the changes to monk personally but the overall job design on it still isnt my thing. but yes im defiantly excited for it. the problem is monk will just allways be, this kinda monk. in this style of combat, u want to be a buff monk with less dps? no. ur a guy using gokus dragon fist on a wooden dummy and ur gona like it

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That's the case for every job. We don't have spec trees and thank the gods for that.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

That's the case for every job. We don't have spec trees and thank the gods for that.

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yea but why, saying its bad and not saying why isnt exactly helpful

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Company that historically does not listen to player feedback once again does not listen to player feedback, players shocked by this turn of events

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They Did listen TO MUCH on other Fronts. Take PvP for example. The people who do not even play pvp complained it is to hard back in the Day and now we have a shallow 5 skill spam and run mode. If you do not die from Chain Vacuum Cleaner + Dragoon Combos, you die from boredom.

Personally it made me more excited for 8.0. It's looking like a fire xpac if they'll remove all the post Shb shitty job design

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Originally Posted by Araxes

They Did listen TO MUCH on other Fronts. Take PvP for example. The people who do not even play pvp complained it is to hard back in the Day and now we have a shallow 5 skill spam and run mode. If you do not die from Chain Vacuum Cleaner + Dragoon Combos, you die from boredom.

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better than shb pvp where it was mch vs you you will just die now

Incredibly underwheling. Not only it's more of the same, but in the name of "streamlining" they are completely killing entire playstyles. Why can't we even have ONE job that is all about DoT/buff upkeep, or about positionals. And now they're giving every healer wings because not happy to homogenize mechanics, they have started homogenizing aesthetics too.

You want us to play only one way? Fine by me, I actually prefer it over talent trees and specs. But at least give us variety in that! Every job should feel different but with every expansion the lines are blurred more and more.


And no, more variety in fight mechanics cannot compensate for the lack of interesting job mechanics, because 90% of this game is still going to be braindead, so any interesting stuff will be relegated to Ultimate and Savage, so anything outside of that will have boring fights on top of boring jobs. And when they focus on job identity in 8.0 (as if), what will happen to the interesting fight mechanics of 7.0? Can't have them anymore because jobs are complex now?

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

what we needed wasn't another skill on top of every other skill to do more damage. what we needed was a job design overhaul and rework of job identity. this has not only been lost so far, but in dt will be even further lost as healers homogenise even more. whm becomes a sage with wings, sch now has enshroud :confused: and every finisher just gets a new finisher.

its to late now for DT.. this is what we have and it wont be changed in time. so we can only hope 8.0 will make the notable changes the game needs.

talking mainly about the removal of dps checks on bosses.
lets talk about why those dps checks are an issue
they limit the amount of playstyles you can run with because everything needs to be about damage.
this creates meta damage builds that eliminate all creative pathing from jobs forcing your rotation to make you feel like a mindless zombie in pve just hitting the same buttons over and over. the players are sick of this, and the game feels like your in a half asleep trance not really playing just.. doing it.

jobs should perhaps go down skill tree paths, allowing people to customize HOW we play the job. this is something i like in wow (i dont play it but i was my bf build specs on it) obv i dont want to build healer tanks, but why not be able to build tanks that can mitigate more damage, do more damage, or heal party members. if you remove the dps checks from fights, then people will be able to make there job without fear of being penalized.

perhaps adding variables to fights, like for example this week the boss does increased aoe damage, or this week healing potency is reduced. these are just raw ideas. but doing this could already allow for some customization of your jobs. it saddens me that this company is made up of experienced game designers who cannot program a good combat system.. maybe 3.0 really WAS better

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First, you can not remove DPS checks. If you have no DPS checks, then you don't need DPS classes since you can just bring tank and healers and just power through any content in the game.

Second, you brought up WoW. They have different specs, and different talent trees. There are constant complaints there about the imbalance of the classes and specs. This kind of thing is a pick your poison type of situation where there are pros and cons to how you do this. On the same vein, if you think WoW doesn't have meta builds, then you might need to look into this further. You have M+ builds, raid builds, PvP builds, etc., but each of them have their own meta. Just like here, if you aren't doing high end content, then it's certainly not an issue what build you go with. However, if the theme of what the high end players does trickles down, then you are really just looking at an illusion of choice.

I certainly understand a lot of the concerns of what was shown, but I also remember how SCH was getting absolutely memed on for the Expedient changes, and then ended up having to be nerfed because of how powerful it was. As a software developer, I can kind of see their long term plan. Instead of trying to make huge changes all over the place, they are going with an iterative approach. Assuming they follow through with what they said in changing up the encounters in 7.x, the next big change to build off that would be the 8.x series where they can hopefully go back to not being so homogenized and let classes be a lot more distinct.

Before I came to FFXIV, I played SWTOR and each class had 2-3 specs or skill trees. I would like each job to have a dot spec and a burst spec per SE. The problem that SWTOR had was balancing the specs incorrectly and making players to be on a spec that they are uncomfortable with in some fights. If they were to implement something similar, they need to be careful about balancing DPS numbers while giving players the freedom to play how they want.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

yea but why, saying its bad and not saying why isnt exactly helpful

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With talent trees, you either have well balanced ones, which at that point, are just new jobs. Or you have imbalanced ones, at which point, why have them at all.

There is always a wrong choice in a talent tree. They are not equal choices.

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Originally Posted by sdr26

Before I came to FFXIV, I played SWTOR and each class had 2-3 specs or skill trees. I would like each job to have a dot spec and a burst spec per SE. The problem that SWTOR had was balancing the specs incorrectly and making players to be on a spec that they are uncomfortable with in some fights. If they were to implement something similar, they need to be careful about balancing DPS numbers while giving players the freedom to play how they want.

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lol, your own post pretty much sums up why ff14 is built the way it is, because like swtor they wouldnt be able to balance the classes.

ff14 will never get a full job overhaul, that wont happen until another ff mmo is created from scratch.

Can't believe im saying this but i wish we had Endwalker design back now looking at the DT changes.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Can't believe im saying this but i wish we had Endwalker design back now looking at the DT changes.

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Nah, new mnk looks great. And here I thought I was going to be swapping back to DRG for dawntrail.

Agree but the more you all simp for this that’s what’s you’ll get expansion after expansion.

WOW expansions generally suck as well but at least they take more risk. SE is extremely risk adverse.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Nah, new mnk looks great. And here I thought I was going to be swapping back to DRG for dawntrail.

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it might "look" great but From the sounds of the changes it's being simplified down pretty hard.

Honestly doesn't look great I'm dissapointed.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

it might "look" great but From the sounds of the changes it's being simplified down pretty hard.

Honestly doesn't look great I'm dissapointed.

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Mnk was already simplified. You could literally spam a 123 combo and do nothing else and do like 70% of your dps. Hell you could spam dragon kick and be fine.

People really need to stop screaming doom from info like this. Remember how everyone laughed at expedience and said sch was dead before endwalker? Yeah how'd that turn out.

Flashy but still homogenized even more than endwalker.
They said you have to wait for 8.0 for player expression instead of the game giving you a straight line of skills to use next. Same for job uniqueness; wait for 8.0.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Can't believe im saying this but i wish we had Endwalker design back now looking at the DT changes.

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It seems like we go through this cycle every expansion. Once 8.0 rolls around, you'll find yourself wishing for the changes made in 7.0 and hear praise on how Endwalker was the best expansion.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

First, you can not remove DPS checks. If you have no DPS checks, then you don't need DPS classes since you can just bring tank and healers and just power through any content in the game.

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obv if you would remove dps checks dps wouldnt be just about doing damage....

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Second, you brought up WoW. They have different specs, and different talent trees. There are constant complaints there about the imbalance of the classes and specs. This kind of thing is a pick your poison type of situation where there are pros and cons to how you do this. On the same vein, if you think WoW doesn't have meta builds, then you might need to look into this further. You have M+ builds, raid builds, PvP builds, etc., but each of them have their own meta. Just like here, if you aren't doing high end content, then it's certainly not an issue what build you go with. However, if the theme of what the high end players does trickles down, then you are really just looking at an illusion of choice.

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id rather have the illusion of choice than braindead half asleep actions i didnt ask for

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Originally Posted by HeyMcFly

Viper would look cool if you could see what was going on

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It seems pretty on-par with Reaper in terms of needless and nonsensical visual noise, but the lighter colors make it more of a flashbang.

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Originally Posted by Rekh

Flashy but still homogenized even more than endwalker.
They said you have to wait for 8.0 for player expression instead of the game giving you a straight line of skills to use next. Same for job uniqueness; wait for 8.0.

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sure, i guess they dont need my money anyway untill then

I'm severely disappointed in Reaper. They changed the gibbet and gallows animation/sound effects to look worse than they did before. Always wanted green feather effects in my scythe swings *Sarcasm* They're so great with re using assets they took part of the LB3 Reaper attack and just slapped it on to their new skill that looks underwhelming. Just why??

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

obv if you would remove dps checks dps wouldnt be just about doing damage....

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Gonna need you to explain this. What do you think the D stands for in DPS if you think DPS wouldn't be just about doing damage?

SE won't be happy until the entire UI is filled with clocks ticking in different directions with flashing baubles appearing and disappearing everywhere causing seizures.

The trailer itself I found very blah, very generic, and a little tropey. Kind of makes me think they aren't really putting any effort in - character art for every tank is male, character art for every healer is female, and the typical split between the ranged you'd expect (dnc\archer\rdm being female for example). It's like they aren't even trying to not look like they have completely phoned it in. There's gotta be someone there that noticed that, yea?

I agree that we didn't need more skills, we don't need old tropes and stereotypes, we need serious developers thinking about these jobs and how they all fit together. Skill trees, for all their faults, give players options. Subjobs which is the more classic FF way, gave people options. And please please PLEASE stop cluttering up the UI with endless clocks. I about fell off the chair when I saw they added ANOTHER clock to BLM. With the sheer number of skills we have, we need that space for hotbars, thanks.

I'm starting to get really worried about the future of this great game. They keep tripping over the same shit over and over and over again.

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talking mainly about the removal of dps checks on bosses.

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Not finding anything about this ?

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Originally Posted by Rekh

Flashy but still homogenized even more than endwalker.
They said you have to wait for 8.0 for player expression instead of the game giving you a straight line of skills to use next. Same for job uniqueness; wait for 8.0.

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Square needs a money printer, especially after their last fiscal year and how badly their last decade of projects has done. Something that's pretty but otherwise simple, bland, and inoffensive is what every AAA company is convinced will achieve that status.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

Gonna need you to explain this. What do you think the D stands for in DPS if you think DPS wouldn't be just about doing damage?

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by that train of thought any tank or healer that does damage no longer can be called such

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

yea but why, saying its bad and not saying why isnt exactly helpful

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it's bad because if you give players a right choice and a wrong choice, a lot of them will choose poorly and then you've only widened the gap between good and bad players

sadly most of ffxiv players are big casual:

they are more worried about how theirs chars looks in game with the new graphical udapte than actual gameplay changes. live with it!


they legit said that we had to wait until 8.0 ( in 3 years) to get something about jobs design LMAO its crazy

The new DT changes leave me with feelings of excitement and anticipation. I look forward to enjoying the new job actions and traits, especially AST. Looking forward to how the team develops these jobs further in the future.

Why are we bothering posting in a bait thread by someone who's a well known disingenuous forum troll.

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Originally Posted by W4rm0nger5

Why are we bothering posting in a bait thread by someone who's a well known disingenuous forum troll.

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Well even a troll is right once in a while, well at least the title idk what he's saying in the post.

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Originally Posted by W4rm0nger5

Why are we bothering posting in a bait thread by someone who's a well known disingenuous forum troll.

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Still 6 weeks out from the expansion. People are bored and feel like entertaining the topic, would be my assumption.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

It seems like we go through this cycle every expansion. Once 8.0 rolls around, you'll find yourself wishing for the changes made in 7.0 and hear praise on how Endwalker was the best expansion.

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Strawman, honestly do you think I was "prasing" EW, I'm just surprised that the design is shaping up to be even more simple.

I will not be singing praises to endwalker, if 8.0 rolls around and I'm wishing for 7.0 again it's likely because 8.0 managed to double down on poor design choices.