Paladins should have a raise!

It would only make sense if Pallys get a rez. I would even love for them to push for Pallys to get a healing version kind of like Summoner and Scholar. You could call it a Templar or Valkyrie. I would love for the Paladin to get some rejuvinated spot light.

Let me know what you think! :cool:

They had one in the past. Could only be done out of battle, though.

Paladins damage would either be made into the worst or it would be broken.

I'm not really a fan of adding rez to PLD personally.

give paladin a 3min buff called halo/auto-life that can be applied on one party member, that removes the rezz debuff when raised

As King said above, we GLA/PLDs used to have Raise as a crossclass ability from CNJ (along with Cure, Protect and Stoneskin)... until the Role ability system was brought in with SB's launch in 2017 and it was lost.

I liked it as I often came across someone KO'd out in the field and it was handy to just cast instead of having to switch to WHM to raise them. Of course in duties though, it was less than useful (due to not having access to the CNJ/WHM trait that allowed it's use in battle). I'd like it to return, but it is a spell we can do without.

I actually wouldn’t be against a PLD ability on a long long CD that removes weakness from a raised player but tank rezzes are extremely problematic

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I actually wouldn’t be against a PLD ability on a long long CD that removes weakness from a raised player but tank rezzes are extremely problematic

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But wouldn't that be more suited for healers?

You'd kind of want that ability on a job that can synergize with rezzers, rather than a rezzer, I think. Healers already go through the "Lucid/Thin Air, Swiftcast, rez, heal, heal heal..." ritual every time someone goes down. Just pressing another cooldown in the mix wouldn't add much there except more busywork. Almost nothing would change about how you handle raising (heck, you might just make healers start with a single use "Enhanced Raise" buff and literally nothing would, and it'd make more sense that way). For a job that doesn't normally care about KOs it would give a reason to pay a bit more attention to your party members.

Giving PLDs a way to cleanse Weakness and probably Brink of Death debuffs is kinda OP tbh.

I think it would be an logical evolution to Clemency if PLD gets a Ress too

Giving battle res to PLDs will reduce the need for casters like RDM and SMN since PLD have a very reliable way of restoring MP via Riot Blade combo, Expiacion, and Atonement vs caster's Lucid Dreaming only. I highly doubt they'll enable PLDs to have the ability to res.

If you ask for any tank job to get a unique and useful skill they'll just give it to WAR so all the WAR mains don't cry about not getting one thing.

we will see in the Dawntrail Job Action Trailer.. I dare to assume that the Dawntrail Job Action is highly Important to get a glimse of direction the Gameplay will take, will the Samurai remain Spamming Shinten? will the Whitemage remain spamming Glare? Will the SMN do whatever without feeling like a Caster? were the post-poned DRG/AST Reworks justified after the stellar reception of the 6.1 Changes of SAM/NIN?

While not 100% the same as SMN/RDM vs BLM because BLM actually is a fair bit more difficult to perform well at while providing no Raise... there has been a consistent trend of players feeling the "need" if not feeling outright "forced" to bring jobs with such utility to progression, which is where players will most likely spend a lot of time

I think an in-combat Raise or similar utility for Paladin would thematically fit and it would definitely be unique, but it would probably lead to a similar situation the casters are having. In the current state, Warrior is already pretty much looked at as one of the best progression (and speedkill too, thx SE) tanks from the sheer amount of value it brings. If you bring a tank who can theoretically raise, you will most likely see a LOT of WAR-PLD comps in Dawntrail raids and a good possibility people will lock DRK, GNB or both for prog parties, depending on what they give to all tanks.

My take - actually unnerf part of Cover to enhance that part of PLDs niche. It has been in a hyper-niche state since the 5.0 nerf and pretty much only used to cheese certain mechanics (Magic Number in The Omega Protocol, check the healerless clear). Either:

• Remove the gauge cost and make it function pretty much like pre-Stormblood cover
• Keep the gauge cost and re-add the Lv66 Enhanced Cover trait that granted Cover mitigation for 12s (-15% dmg taken) and at Lv82 make it grant "Knight's Resolve" (-15% dmg taken) for 4s. (no Knight's Benediction due to longer mitigation)
  
  These mitigation additions are essentially to offset the cost of a Holy Sheltron. The bonus base duration for mitigation compared to Sheltron is because of the 120s cooldown.

I'd like raises to get a hard cap on their usage, depending on fight difficulty. That way, it wouldn't matter if you brought four potential raises or only two. You only have a set number of raises that you can use per pull across your entire raid group, after which you're flat out of luck.

I'd also like for them to add in a shared recast timer across your entire team (probably 120 seconds at minimum) and make it instant cast so that the swiftcast effect is integrated. I think if you did these things, it wouldn't matter how many available raises you have across various jobs, and they could stop penalizing jobs for having access to it.

It's worth noting that Criterion, BA, and DRS all have fairly strict restrictions around raises and yet players manage to work around them without issue. This is easily something that can be adjusted so that availability is a function of the difficulty setting of the fight.

In terms of lore and the "feel" of the class I'd say yes - Paladin's should have a raise ability. However in current game play mechanics and what appears to be SE's vision for the class and tanking role, I can't see it happening.

We already have four healer classes who can res, plus two DPS classes - I can't see SE giving another role a res ability on top of this.

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Originally Posted by rawker

Giving battle res to PLDs will reduce the need for casters like RDM and SMN since PLD have a very reliable way of restoring MP via Riot Blade combo, Expiacion, and Atonement vs caster's Lucid Dreaming only. I highly doubt they'll enable PLDs to have the ability to res.

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They would need to put PLD like 5% behind other tanks like they do for RDM/SMN vs BLM, which will just make the job feel awful in anything that isn't progression. That or again it would be ridiculously OP, if PLD did the same damage and had a rez, The issue is There would have to be some place where Paladin's would have to pay. I just don't think it's worth having that trade off ever.

And when the gear level is through the roof, PLD will be rejected since it does the lowest DPS... we come full circle to HW PLD.

If your healer dies, generally that means the entire party except the tank is fated to die since DPS don't have the healing or mitigation to survive unavoidable damage. Meanwhile, tanks can frequently survive without any outside help, making it easy to end up in situations where the entire party is on the floor watching the tank slowly DPS a boss to death.

So yeah, if the devs don't bring tank sustain back into the stratosphere, they definitely need to give every tank a raise; that way even if they can't die, they won't be the only person who gets to play.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

If your healer dies, generally that means the entire party except the tank is fated to die since DPS don't have the healing or mitigation to survive unavoidable damage. Meanwhile, tanks can frequently survive without any outside help, making it easy to end up in situations where the entire party is on the floor watching the tank slowly DPS a boss to death.

So yeah, if tank sustain doesn't get brought back into the stratosphere, every tank should be given a raise; that way even if they can't die, they won't be the only person who gets to play.

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Sure. Let's make healers more obsolete. :)

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Originally Posted by rawker

Sure. Let's make healers more obsolete. :)

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Hopefully it's incredibly clear that that is not my preference! But if it comes to it, I'll take my scraps...

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Originally Posted by rawker

Giving PLDs a way to cleanse Weakness and probably Brink of Death debuffs is kinda OP tbh.

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I didnt imagine it in that way tbh, it would have been necessary to apply it before someone dies. So you still would have to pay attention, and the cooldown would be so high, you couldn't just use it so often. But if there is a mechanic where someone often dies, you could use it for that.

The way mechanics work in this game, an auto-rezz seems too OP, eventhough content like eureka has it. For a tank that uses invulnerability and then still can autorezz, it would be like 2 invulns. And all the fights we have are more tuned for 1 invuln with tankswaps. So I dont think its happening.

Would be a cool animation to have though

https://i.imgur.com/3UW0hir.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/soZFgNT.jpeg

The thing is, no tank is able to do that. And in the event that they did, PLDs will take a hefty blow somewhere.. most likely its DPS. Even should the PLD absorb the Weakness debuff as a drawback for using the ability, it will still be a big gain and not to mention will make players more relaxed and ignore mechanics since someone can cleanse the debuff anyway.

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Originally Posted by rawker

Sure. Let's make healers more obsolete.

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If you felt that Raise was an important role contribution for healers, that ship sailed with RDM about 7 years ago. Nobody wants to hardcast raise, healers included, because it interrupts their personal dps. RDM has more baseline access to on-demand Raises than everyone else because of Dual Cast.

I understand that PLD having access to Raise opens up all sorts of unwanted balance issues and personally wouldn't be in favor for it, but the one thing that I would see a discussion around this achieving is an overhaul of the Raise system, which is sorely needed. I don't envision PLD mains sitting around hardcasting Raise without access to Swiftcast - it just seems like an awful drawback for a melee range job. I think if you opened Raise up to multiple jobs and roles, though, the net result is that you would have a hard cap on Raises per fight, and cooldown restrictions on their use. You'd also have less emphasis placed on bringing certain jobs as 'progression jobs' and then swapping them out when you're ready to clear and meet the dps check.

Solving the issue of healer relevance is another point entirely, which I think comes down to overhauling how resource management works on those jobs and coming up with more innovative ways to provide raid utility. In part, I think this also comes down to designing a system where doing damage is mandatory to generate enough healing resources to keep players alive, but that's a different topic entirely.

I am one of the players that want tanks to tank, healers to heal, and dds to deal dmg mostly anyway. I think incoming damage should be hugely increased so that tanks have to use rotations that enhance their defense, while healers are focused on healing.

I do think ff14 players focus too much on dps balance, the current spread of tank dmg of the top5% is less than 3%. Like, you cant get them any more balanced than they are right now...Giving them all more impactful mitigation/utility skills while reducing their damage output, I wouldn't mind... You could give warrior and dark knight an option to have a "Last Stand/Berserk/Arise" trait, that lets them rezz themselves but unable to generate aggro, if they kill an enemy in those extra seconds they can stay alive. Give GNB a defibrillator shot that rezzes everyone in a small aoe around him. You can take away the rezzes from mages, give them more damage abilities

Hmm. Raising already means someone messed up. Run's no longer perfect. So why bother carry the weight as healer to make up for the lost dps of whoever's KO'ed? Hard cast that Raise, especially if you know that there isn't any wipe mechanic happening while you're casting.

If a healer can cast their filler 3-4 times without moving a pixel from their position, they could have finished that Raise.

I am still not convinced on giving PLDs a battle res, given its powerful self-sustain and respectable personal dps. If anything, abilities like Cover needs a serious buff.

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Originally Posted by rawker

abilities like Cover needs a serious buff.

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They could make a start by reverting the need for it to cost any oath gauge.

I feel like there are already too many rezzes in the game unless we are okay with SMN or RDM rez getting cut so PLD can get one.

I agree, we should get a raised. I'm just not being paid enough with the way the economy is these days.

If Paladin received the typical resurrection spell, I hope it works with Requiescat ("spells will require no cast time") so Paladin has the opportunity to resurrect four people in 10 seconds every minute.

To be serious, other posts have already explained why Square Enix will probably not add a raise to Paladin.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I'd like raises to get a hard cap on their usage, depending on fight difficulty. That way, it wouldn't matter if you brought four potential raises or only two. You only have a set number of raises that you can use per pull across your entire raid group, after which you're flat out of luck.

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I disagree with hard capping raises on the healers. Hard cap on the casters? Sure. But judging where you can stand during a mechanic to hardcast a res so you don't wipe to the body check coming up is one of the only few remaining ways to show player skill as a healer.

I’m fine with hard restrictions on caster raises then healer raises being limited by MP, they just need to actually nerf healer MP generation or otherwise add engagement that encourages you to burn MP if you know what you are doing (miasma 2 anyone)

Right now every healer besides SCH still has an incredibly healthy mana economy even ignoring lucid dreaming just by pressing buttons they were going to press anyway (ie not lucid which exists only for MP generation)
SCH wants to press aetherflow for the aetherflow, the 2000 mp is just there, AST wants to press draw, the 500 mp is just there, same as lilys, addersgall and astrodyne

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I'd like raises to get a hard cap on their usage, depending on fight difficulty. That way, it wouldn't matter if you brought four potential raises or only two. You only have a set number of raises that you can use per pull across your entire raid group, after which you're flat out of luck.

I'd also like for them to add in a shared recast timer across your entire team (probably 120 seconds at minimum) and make it instant cast so that the swiftcast effect is integrated. I think if you did these things, it wouldn't matter how many available raises you have across various jobs, and they could stop penalizing jobs for having access to it.

It's worth noting that Criterion, BA, and DRS all have fairly strict restrictions around raises and yet players manage to work around them without issue. This is easily something that can be adjusted so that availability is a function of the difficulty setting of the fight.

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Personally, I feel like party-wide cooldown on raise would be a mistake. Not because it doesn't work, because that's how it works in plenty other MMOs, but because how it currently works both works generally well, and is somewhat unique in the grand scheme of things. Plus barely recovering from a near total party wipe feels really good, and just laying on the ground for 2+ minutes while everyone else is fighting sucks because you don't really learn anything from tanking the floor.

Limiting/changing how raising works in niche side content is fine for variety and to set apart that content, but I wouldn't want it changed in general raiding tbh.

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Originally Posted by Tyranda

It would only make sense if Pallys get a rez. I would even love for them to push for Pallys to get a healing version kind of like Summoner and Scholar. You could call it a Templar or Valkyrie. I would love for the Paladin to get some rejuvinated spot light.

Let me know what you think! :cool:

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Could we please not? The last thing we need is to make tanks make healers even less needed. This is without mentioning PLD would become mandatory in prog.

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Originally Posted by Tyranda

It would only make sense if Pallys get a rez. I would even love for them to push for Pallys to get a healing version kind of like Summoner and Scholar. You could call it a Templar or Valkyrie. I would love for the Paladin to get some rejuvinated spot light.

Let me know what you think! :cool:

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Basically my #1 wish for PLD. If they had to disable it while invulnerable that'd be fine, too.

Extremely unlikely cause the devs get stressed when they have to balance around utility so everything has to be super samey in this game. But anything that adds to the Paladin fantasy is on my want list.

If this was a single player game, sure go wild add whatever you want. In some iterations on Paladin, sure a raise makes sense from a job fantasy perspective.

The reality is adding a raise to Paladin is just stupid and catastrophic for both general play and longevity. Paladin already gets punish twice compared to the other tanks. One ranged tax on it magic spells, personally bullshit excuse for Paladin doing less most of the expansion given hitbox sizes. And secondly, utility, they say they don't balance around utility but again Paladin keeps getting screwed in the DPS department because it has PoA which is extra, and Cover which gathers dust since it's fall from grace.

So with all that in mind, and looking at how poorly casters are balanced, people actually want to cripple a job that historically gets screwed over in having competitive DPS output, by adding another button that is going to gather dust, then you are all going to cry Paladin has too many actions again, but you all asked for an action that would be used as a last resort?

It already has an extra raid mitigation as gundamn wings, any extra would require it to deal less dmg... firmly against it.

I wouldn't mind them adding a Pheonix Down as a craftable item tho... it's really annoying that Rez is only on healers and 2 casters.