Politics

Aren't the scions supposed to be neutral. We're not supposed to get involved with politics of a realm. How is it okay to take sides in succession?

If this is okay why didn't we just overthrow the monetarist when they were giving us trouble?

The Scions, as an organization, were neutral, and focused on the primals/Calamities/Ascians as a problem, only getting involved when necessary. Granted, their focus problem often got entangled in political machinations anyway, so they still had to get involved with it. But nominally, they were neutral.

Individual members of the Scions are politically tilted as all hell. Specifcally that's Alphinaud's whole bag, but G'raha and Estinien had their moments too, in ex-Scions we've got Arenvald and Lyse, and I think you'd find it hard to say Thancred's hands have been completely clean. This tracks since they almost all consider Louisoix a mentor, a man who specifically struck off from Sharlayan because he disagreed with their isolationist, 'neutral' tendencies. This is, like, the third or fourth time the Scions have been a major part of some sort of change of political power... and unlike all the others, this is the only time we were straight-up invited. And with the Scions as an organization disbanded, they can do whatever they want.

There's two big reasons they didn't depose the Monetarists, though.
1. With the Scions effectively being 'neutral unless provoked', they never had any great reason to move.
And 2. You need a damn good plan to depose the Monetarists, you saw what happened when you don't.

These are good questions.

I'm sure that the Scions of the Seventh Dawn would have an objection to meddling in political affairs, if they still existed. Unfortunately, they disbanded some time ago, if I remember correctly. In this situation, what matters most is the Turali people's values and cultural beliefs around the succession:

MSQ

G'raha: 'I understand your reasons, but this being an event that will dictate a course of your nation's future, is it appropriate for outsiders like us to be involved?'

Wuk Lamat: 'Oh, it's more than appropriate. The Dawnservant himself expressly encourages it. The ruler of Tural must navigate the intricacies of myriad cultures, and there's no better way to prove oneself qualified to do so than to work with foreign allies.' (Lv.90, The Game is Afoot)

Based off this interaction, it seems that it would be insensitive of us to forcibly impose our own Eorzean 'hands-off' philosophy on others, especially when we know that Tural deliberately takes a more collaborative approach to their own succession process. Of course, it's also reasonable to abstain from forming a personal opinion on the succession despite being invited to do so, if you so wish:

MSQ

G'raha: What about you, my friend? Are you inclined to accept or refuse Wuk Lamat's request?

> 'I'd rather not get involved in politics.'

G'raha: 'If only others had the same good sense. If the prospect troubles you so, why not consider what you stand to gain instead? That is, an exciting journey to a faraway continent. In the course of seeing new lands and meeting new people, you might find yourself moved to help Wuk Lamat after all. And if not, well... you quietly take your leave.' (Lv.90, The Coming Dawn)

I personally want to see all the candidates and understand their motivations before I formulate an opinion.

I think there's one more consideration to make. As a shard of Azem, we're descended from a member of an elite, nepotistic circle of tyrannical despots who unilaterally made decisions on behalf of the rest of the world for thousands of years. From a roleplaying perspective, we need more opportunities to lean into that. There is a fantastic opportunity for us to build a clique of powerful friends that goes on to form a world government for the entire planet, ushering the shards into a new era of prosperity under our iron fist. Now that the Scions and Ascians are no more, we finally have the potential to make that dream into a reality. Consider the following:

Hildibrand

Vanhudi: Let's get straight to the point: I want you at my side. With the Vaunted Warrior of Light as the template for my clone army, we could conquer this and every other land in creation!

> 'That... that's not a bad idea, actually.'

Hildibrand: 'Ah... ha ha ha! A splendid jest, my friend. A splendid and... not-at-all-indicative-of-suppressed-megalomaniacal-ambitions jest... yes?'

<long silence>

(Lv.90, Gentlemen at Heart)

As you might have inferred, Square Enix has several years of engagement metric data from forum posts on the previous story arc, so they seem to have anticipated all the talking points already. I don't think there's a right answer for everyone, but it's looking to be an entertaining ride.

As far as the world knows the Scions have "disbanded." These are just private citizens using their ample (literally god-given) strength to put into power a person they've known for five minutes, cause she asked.

If this doesn't blow up in our face, I'm gonna be so mad. Who does this? Nice to meet you, Wuk Lamat. Please enjoy your continent and all it's military strength we just handed you. Hope you don't turn out to be evil!

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

As far as the world knows the Scions have "disbanded." These are just private citizens using their ample (literally god-given) strength to put into power a person they've known for five minutes, cause she asked.

If this doesn't blow up in our face, I'm gonna be so mad. Who does this? Nice to meet you, Wuk Lamat. Please enjoy your continent and all it's military strength we just handed you. Hope you don't turn out to be evil!

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That would be a issue if it was not for the part we have a person we know we can trust vouch for her already being Erenville. He has known her since childhood and constantly return to Tural even before events of his introduction to the story to keep updated on the situation in Tural.

This is partly Erenville request for help as well since he does not want his home nation end up becoming another Garlean Empire. The Golden City part was just a last addition for him since he never had any real clues where to start until now.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

As far as the world knows the Scions have "disbanded." These are just private citizens using their ample (literally god-given) strength to put into power a person they've known for five minutes, cause she asked.

If this doesn't blow up in our face, I'm gonna be so mad. Who does this? Nice to meet you, Wuk Lamat. Please enjoy your continent and all it's military strength we just handed you. Hope you don't turn out to be evil!

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Only the WoL has any “god-given” strength and the rest of the Scions minus Krile don’t even have the benefit of the Echo.

And then… (MSQ)

We were told that one of the claimants of the throne has eyes on invading us now that the war is over and everyone is spent. We have more than a little bit of a reason to go there to at least scope things out and gather intelligence on what’s happening to defend Eorzea from a possible invasion. It’s ridiculous to ignore it and do nothing just because some people might think it’s “problematic”.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

That would be a issue if it was not for the part we have a person we know we can trust vouch for her already being Erenville and he has known her since childhood and constantly return to Tural even before events of his introduction to the story to keep updated on the situation in Tural.

This is partly Erenville request for help as well since he does not want his home nation end up becoming another Garlean Empire. The Golden City part was just a last addition for him since he never had any real clues where to start until now.

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Didn't Erenville downplay his relationship with her in the dinner scene? Plus Ilberd used to be friends with Raubahn and we saw how that worked out for him.

And the invasion thing makes it worse. It means we're going as kingmaker to a country we've never been to in order to install someone who will serve our political interests. We're doing a colonialism, and just because the person we're installing insures us they are into that sort of thing doesn't make it right. There are four contestants, only one wants to conquer us. Is no one even gonna ask why she has to travel to a continent where no one knows who she is to get help in this contest?

This is dumb. We are doing a dumb. And hopefully, we are doing a dumb so the story can teach us why it's dumb to do what we're doing.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

Didn't Erenville downplay his relationship with her in the dinner scene? Plus Ilberd used to be friends with Raubahn and we saw how that worked out for him.

And the invasion thing makes it worse. It means we're going as kingmaker to a country we've never been to in order to install someone who will serve our political interests. We're doing a colonialism, and just because the person we're installing insures us they are into that sort of thing doesn't make it right. There are four contestants, only one wants to conquer us. Is no one even gonna ask why she has to travel to a continent where no one knows who she is to get help in this contest?

This is dumb. We are doing a dumb. And hopefully, we are doing a dumb so the story can teach us why it's dumb to do what we're doing.

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I think you've been watching too many Game of Thrones or something to assume every single political person we just met is down right 100% Evil or the whole Ilberd incident is just been stuck in your head for years that you lost all trust in everyone political related.

A lot of the other political characters that got us into certain nations did not end up being a Ilberd situation and we barely known them beyond a few attempt to help us to grain a small amount of trust. Even then WoL stance on them been rather neutral, trusting because the words of someone else we trust, or cautious until they enter the region to assess the situation based on what dialogue choice you make most of the time.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

Didn't Erenville downplay his relationship with her in the dinner scene? Plus Ilberd used to be friends with Raubahn and we saw how that worked out for him.

And the invasion thing makes it worse. It means we're going as kingmaker to a country we've never been to in order to install someone who will serve our political interests. We're doing a colonialism, and just because the person we're installing insures us they are into that sort of thing doesn't make it right. There are four contestants, only one wants to conquer us. Is no one even gonna ask why she has to travel to a continent where no one knows who she is to get help in this contest?

This is dumb. We are doing a dumb. And hopefully, we are doing a dumb so the story can teach us why it's dumb to do what we're doing.

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Do you...do this often? Interpret things differently then they are presented? The country we are going to ENCOURAGES this sort of thing, on the reasoning that being able to navigate and secure assistance from a foreign body is a necessary part of ruling a kingdom. Our claimant is officially endorsed, meaning we're backing one candidate in a way said kingdom encourages, not 'installing' or *shudders* doing a colonization. Further no one just accepted without hesitation, no one has said yes yet, it is literally stated that we are going to see the place for ourselves and make up our mind when we get there. That's not even subtext, it's straight up text. Erenville is going because of the golden city, Krile is going because of her grandfather, and the twins are going because we're going. The only two set on backing anyone are Thancred and Urianger and they probably have a lot more intel than we do.

A few things to remember here:

1. The Scions of the Seventh Dawn have been formally disbanded and no longer act as the (functional) independent paramilitary organization they did from 2.0 until the end of 6.0. (Technically as a combination of the Path of the Twelve and the Circle of Knowing from Legacy, it's been around in some form or another since 1.0, but I digress.) The Scions can't meddle in politics because the organization no longer exists - its former members still associate with one another, natch, but beyond that it's a defunct organization.

2. As such, the PC choosing to go to Tural (and implicitly support Wuk Lamat in her bid for the throne) is nothing more than a freelance mercenary working a job - and probably pro bono at that. (Or getting paid so little it may as well be pro bono, I think I'm only getting paid ~5,000 gil + food per quest right now...) They aren't an Eorzean emissary, dignitary, or envoy, and as such do not and can not represent Eorzean interests beyond, you know... not wanting a warmonger on the throne.

3. The contest not only allows claimants to acquire outside help but encourages it; it's not foreigners "kingmaking" but would-be kings (or queens) working diplomacy to improve their chances of success.

3a. We have no reason whatsoever to think Wuk Lamat is up to no good. While Daichi Hiroi's actual narrative writing skills have thus far left much to be desired from me, he is excellent at creating and introducing interesting and likeable characters and Wuk Lamat is no exception; on the contrary, her openness is likely to be a liability in the political arena (assuming Tuliyollal has the "decadent court" political climate people are so obviously assuming it does). Besides which, while Erenville obviously isn't fond of her... less than regal bearing, he doesn't have anything really negative to say about Wuk Lamat, and we've no reason to suspect him of deception or treachery either (and have known him for a short while to boot).

We're a freelance mercenary going at the behest of someone who personally asked us for help (and was encouraged to do so as per the rules of the game), not a conquistador attempting to install a puppet ruler for imperialistic goals. C'mon guys...

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Originally Posted by Palladiamors

Do you...do this often? Interpret things differently then they are presented?

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They do this constantly, yes. This is just a particularly efficient form, because we've all played the part of the game they're misremembering/misunderstanding/ignoring like, two days ago.

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Originally Posted by Rookie1

If this is okay why didn't we just overthrow the monetarist when they were giving us trouble?

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I mean I have been wanting to do that since ARR so please, lets do it! It's funny how we have no issues interfering with the plights and problems of far out lands, but the three nations problems are just swept under a rug most of the time. I really wanted the fallout from 2.X to be a big change for Ul'dah and its people, but instead its pushed aside in such a weird way for the Ishgard plot (Which is great, do not get me wrong… just wish the former had more of an impact)

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

They do this constantly, yes. This is just a particularly efficient form, because we've all played the part of the game they're misremembering/misunderstanding/ignoring like, two days ago.

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Patch dropped yesterday.

Though approx. 85% of the complaints about Endwalker's story are people deliberately interpreting things differently to how they are presented... but I digress.

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Originally Posted by Hurlstone

I mean I have been wanting to do that since ARR so please, lets do it! It's funny how we have no issues interfering with the plights and problems of far out lands, but the three nations problems are just swept under a rug most of the time. I really wanted the fallout from 2.X to be a big change for Ul'dah and its people, but instead its pushed aside in such a weird way for the Ishgard plot (Which is great, do not get me wrong… just wish the former had more of an impact)

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The Scions primarily dealt with existential threats, stuff nobody else could deal with thanks to having lots of Echo users (on account of Minfilia's Path of the Twelve from 1.0 being rolled into it) until Alphinaud decided to take them out into the open... and even then, they still operated as paramilitary special forces.

The 2.X plot is awkwardly resolved and largely forgotten about because it was just filler to get Heavensward written; since A Realm Reborn was kind of proof of concept, the suits needed proof it would succeed after the bungling of 1.0 before greenlighting an expansion. So we got the political drama that went nowhere until the end, and the writers just kind of... forgot to give it a proper conclusion, hence awkwardly jumping back and forth between Ishgard and Ul'dah with no real change to the status quo (except Teledji Adeledji being dead and Raubahn losing an arm, but neither have had significant narrative consequences).

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The Scions primarily dealt with existential threats, stuff nobody else could deal with thanks to having lots of Echo users (on account of Minfilia's Path of the Twelve from 1.0 being rolled into it) until Alphinaud decided to take them out into the open... and even then, they still operated as paramilitary special forces.

The 2.X plot is awkwardly resolved and largely forgotten about because it was just filler to get Heavensward written; since A Realm Reborn was kind of proof of concept, the suits needed proof it would succeed after the bungling of 1.0 before greenlighting an expansion. So we got the political drama that went nowhere until the end, and the writers just kind of... forgot to give it a proper conclusion, hence awkwardly jumping back and forth between Ishgard and Ul'dah with no real change to the status quo (except Teledji Adeledji being dead and Raubahn losing an arm, but neither have had significant narrative consequences).

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The whole political plot in 3.X era for Ul'dah felt a bit rushed more as a result they were not prepared for it so they tried to get it over with fast since they did not know where to take this plot.

Heck the two NPCs that were always with Ilberd were literally removed from the story offscreen with a very simple one time dialogue saying if they should spend life in Prison or instantly executed. These two actually had good potential to be used much longer post-Ilberd's death to show off the different reasons why people sided with Ilberd since the lalafell was doing it more out of the enjoyment and sharing the same belief as Ilberd but the Midlander was a young person who was gaslighted into believing what they are doing is the right choice. Given the chance to talk with the Midlander, he probably would have been convinced to change sides since he was always conflicted with what Ilberd order them to do.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Patch dropped yesterday.

Though approx. 85% of the complaints about Endwalker's story are people deliberately interpreting things differently to how they are presented... but I digress.

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The patch dropped on Tuesday evening for me and it's now Thursday, it's been two days for me!

I think paraphrasing Yoshida sums it up best, the writing team doesn't have a plan, they are allowed to do basically whatever they feel like. When you have a persistent writing team that's fine, but when the pen starts changing hands things tend to go awry. Like going on an expansion long side quest and coming back to the war you were in the middle of being finished unceremoniously off screen or having ten years worth of story wrapped up by a Woobie destroyer of worlds whose specialty is previously unheard of space/emotion magic who pops up in the last third of the expansion.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

The patch dropped on Tuesday evening for me and it's now Thursday, it's been two days for me!

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Time differences, ayy!

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Originally Posted by Palladiamors

I think paraphrasing Yoshida sums it up best, the writing team doesn't have a plan, they are allowed to do basically whatever they feel like. When you have a persistent writing team that's fine, but when the pen starts changing hands things tend to go awry. Like going on an expansion long side quest and coming back to the war you were in the middle of being finished unceremoniously off screen or having ten years worth of story wrapped up by a Woobie destroyer of worlds whose specialty is previously unheard of space/emotion magic who pops up in the last third of the expansion.

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To be fair, Shadowbringers and Endwalker both had the same lead writer (Natsuko Ishikawa), though the latter clearly had some edits from Yoshi-P and/or Banri Oda.

The kerfluffle with 2.X's political storyline was a result of them having no plan because even going past 2.0 wasn't greenlit. A Realm Reborn's success let them go on to Heavensward, but they needed to kill time and keep player interest in the meantime, so we just beat up Monster of the Week primals and dealt with Teledji Adeledji trying to outplay Nanamo and Lolorito until 2.5 started hinting at where Heavensward would go. Thanks to the game's success there is generally a plan these days, but back then... nope.

I'm... cautiously optimistic with how Dawntrail is gonna turn out. If I remember right Daichi Hiroi is the main writer this time, and he did 6.X... which I found extremely disappointing in spite of the good characters. Too much deus ex machina, cliché plotline. Maybe more space will help.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

The whole political plot in 3.X era for Ul'dah felt a bit rushed more as a result they were not prepared for it so they tried to get it over with fast since they did not know where to take this plot.

Heck the two NPCs that were always with Ilberd were literally removed from the story offscreen with a very simple one time dialogue saying if they should spend life in Prison or instantly executed. These two actually had good potential to be used much longer post-Ilberd's death to show off the different reasons why people sided with Ilberd since the lalafell was doing it more out of the enjoyment and sharing the same belief as Ilberd but the Midlander was a young person who was gaslighted into believing what they are doing is the right choice. Given the chance to talk with the Midlander, he probably would have been convinced to change sides since he was always conflicted with what Ilberd order them to do.

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I'm not sure Laurentius was truly being gasslighted. Just that he finally saw what kind of problems his actions could and did end up causing. Remember he is the Woodwailer who was supplying the Garleans with old maps and getting paid for it because he felt he wasn't getting paid enough by the Woodwailers. Then said he changed his ways after finishing his punishment when we recruited him as a Crystal Brave. Only to choose to back stab the Scions because Teledji Adeledji's pay was seen as being worth it. He probably thought he could continue to make sweet bank through the revolution. Only at the end to finally realize he was ruining people's lives for his selfishness.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Time differences, ayy!



To be fair, Shadowbringers and Endwalker both had the same lead writer (Natsuko Ishikawa), though the latter clearly had some edits from Yoshi-P and/or Banri Oda.

The kerfluffle with 2.X's political storyline was a result of them having no plan because even going past 2.0 wasn't greenlit. A Realm Reborn's success let them go on to Heavensward, but they needed to kill time and keep player interest in the meantime, so we just beat up Monster of the Week primals and dealt with Teledji Adeledji trying to outplay Nanamo and Lolorito until 2.5 started hinting at where Heavensward would go. Thanks to the game's success there is generally a plan these days, but back then... nope.

I'm... cautiously optimistic with how Dawntrail is gonna turn out. If I remember right Daichi Hiroi is the main writer this time, and he did 6.X... which I found extremely disappointing in spite of the good characters. Too much deus ex machina, cliché plotline. Maybe more space will help.

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I'm not sure they did 6.X. I do know he and the other main writer we are getting did Pandeamonium and Sorrows of Werlyt.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

I'm not sure they did 6.X. I do know he and the other main writer we are getting did Pandeamonium and Sorrows of Werlyt.

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Yeah, the 6.x lead writer (or writers) is completely unknown, save that they're working under the same overall system and structure.

My gut says it was a Daichi Hiroi story, because it generally seems to fit what he seems to put in, but that's just vibe. And given that going by 6.0's credits there's forty people that could be called 'writers', it's entirely possible that we just won't have any idea because it could be that unseen rest of the iceberg.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

They do this constantly, yes. This is just a particularly efficient form, because we've all played the part of the game they're misremembering/misunderstanding/ignoring like, two days ago.

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Will you please stop discussing me as a person. It's weird. If you take issue with the things I say, discuss the things I say.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

If you take issue with the things I say, discuss the things I say.

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Then respond to MikkoAkure, or to Palladiamors, who actually did discuss the things you said. If what you actually want to do is defend your points, then you have people challenging them. But personally, I look at your posts and I see someone who failed to read clearly stated points in a story they played, at the absolute latest, the day before they posted. There isn't even a distance from the story to blame here; you read all of this as recently as we did.

As pointed out by Mikko, we're fully aware that one of the people with eyes on the throne wants to use it to invade Eorzea, meaning turning a blind eye to it all would be at best foolish--but as Palladiamors said, so too are we not getting blindly involved, as our explicitly stated first priority is actually to get the lay of the land. And also mentioned by Palladiamors, far from being an unwelcome presence to the proceedings, we're actually being directly invited, because the rite of succession encourages recruiting people to put importance on the diplomacy and unification that Gulool presumably values himself.

I think those are all pretty well-stated points, and I didn't really add to them because I thought that they made their points very well, I didn't have anything further to say on it. But I don't think you're interested in arguing the actual points; I think you're interested in kneejerk moralizing. Which is why you reply to what you see as a personal attack from me, rather than actually refuting the material points being put forward.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

Will you please stop discussing me as a person. It's weird. If you take issue with the things I say, discuss the things I say.

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I asked you a question and Cleretic answered, confirming my suspicions. I did some digging afterwards and that supported my hypothesis, you have a bad habit of taking presented information and turning it into something completely different. I don't know if you genuinely misunderstand the information or if you're working off a version of events as you want them to be but either way, it makes it hard to talk about apples when you keep insisting they are oranges.

All right, so... with all of the previous story, I could justify that my character was caught up in things much bigger than herself and far beyond her control--figuratively pulled from place to place doing the things that needed to be done, first by being the right person at the right time, and later by being the only one capable enough to do it. I could accept the lack of agency she had, even if I didn't always like it. The threads of fate, and all that jazz.

However, being coerced into helping a teenager Kennar has known for all of an afternoon ascend to the throne of a nation she knows eff-all about is something she would have little trouble saying "no" to. We (as players) are even given a dialog option about not wanting to get involved, but it's completely negated by G'raha saying, "Come on. Come oooOOOnnnnn!" True, he does give us an out, but I'll eat my hat if anything works out that way.

As for the other justifications:

"But that's the way they do things in Tural!"
So? Find someone else. If G'raha and Krile want to help, more power to them. Kennar will cheer them on from the stands.

"But if the bad guy wins, he will invade Eorzea!"
So? Isn't that why the Scions spent so much time establishing the Eorzean Alliance? They need to handle their own shit sometime. If they can't muster a defense against a foreign military that has to cross a vast, mostly uncharted sea, then that's their problem.


From a narrative standpoint, I want to see my character actually do something, rather than go along for the ride. I think it would have been awesome if the WoL would have started the new story, instead of being pulled into it. It would be easy to send letters to the Scions saying, "I'm traveling to the Neu Wirlde to see what's up. If you want to come with, meet me in Limsa in a month." I wanted us to go with no goals aside from seeing what's there--adventuring in the purest sense. Then we can meet new characters and get caught up in new stories. But now it looks like we're going to be stuck in a *shudder* tournament arc.

There at least better be a lot of fanservice in the beach episode...

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

*snip*

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Has it ever occurred to you that when someone comes back to discuss the topic and see instead a discussion of what a garbage person they are, that might make them less enthused to discuss the topic with people who they know will dismiss everything they say because they've been deemed lesser?

I know you know this because this is why you do it. You know with enough bullying, you won't have to deal with dissent, and you're right, my interest in posting on these forums is at zero. Soon, I will be gone but before that happens, I want you to know it's because of nasty behavior rather than any ideological victory. Most the arguments made against my points conflict with one another, though I can't put that on you as you've made literally no arguments against my points, only me, which is why I'm addressing you as you seem to be the ringleader when it comes to bullying on these forums.

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Originally Posted by Palladiamors

I asked you a question and Cleretic answered, confirming my suspicions. I did some digging afterwards and that supported my hypothesis, you have a bad habit of taking presented information and turning it into something completely different. I don't know if you genuinely misunderstand the information or if you're working off a version of events as you want them to be but either way, it makes it hard to talk about apples when you keep insisting they are oranges.

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The disagreements aren't over objective reality. We're not debating over if the pen is blue or black. The disagreements are over moral judgements and yes, I find devolving an entire species down to apes removing their memories and history as something bad even if the game tells me it's something good. I find traveling to a country and installing a person we just met as their leader with power purchased by the systematic extermination of billions of people as bad, even though the game assures me they are into that.

Given how horrific I find EW moral messaging, I was hoping, beyond hope, they'd change directions, but no, they are doubling down on having the WoL do bad things while assuring us they are good things actually. And if I don't simply agree, go along with it and enjoy my colonialist adventure, then clearly there is something wrong with me as a person.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

Given how horrific I find EW moral messaging, I was hoping, beyond hope, they'd change directions, but no, they are doubling down on having the WoL do bad things while assuring us they are good things actually. And if I don't simply agree, go along with it and enjoy my colonialist adventure, then clearly there is something wrong with me as a person.

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There is nothing at all in the story saying that we’re going to Tural to colonize them. You made this up on your own.

People have problems with your posts because it feels like you purposefully choose the least charitable take you can make and then make a twitter-worthy emotionally-charged rant.

We are not going to Tural to plunder their resources and enslave their people. Nothing at all in the story suggests that. And as I said before, and what you must have completely missed, one of the four claimants to the throne is actively interested in invading us. Unless you believe that all countries should be free to invade others with no interference from the people to be invaded, it is in our best interest to at least go there to see what’s up.

In addition, Wuk Lumat is not the only claimant to the throne interested in outside help as another has been in Sharlayan this whole time and he or another claimant has already hired Urianger and Thancred. No government officials at all are going to Tural. Just a bunch of mercenaries.

Mamool Ja mercenaries have been in Limsa Lominsa for 5 years and some have even broken away to make their own society in Vylbrand, butchered the locals to make their own castle, and actively assault adventurers. I don’t believe we’re going to Tural to do the same thing and the idea of such is flawed.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

*snip*

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The WoL is one of the most powerful people in the world, and we're using that power to put a complete stranger on the throne of a country we've never even been to. That's both unwise and unethical. With great power comes great responsibility...unless you're the WoL, then YOLO!!! And the fact that we've been told one of them wants to invade us makes our actions worse, not better, because that means we're installing her to serve our own political interests. That's colonizing. Doesn't require us to enslave their people or whatever, what we are doing, is in fact, what colonization looks like most of the time. Take one or some of their people, the ones most sympathetic to our interests, and put them in power. Usually it only takes money, violence often isn't necessary. And what about her people's interests? Maybe the reason she had to cross the sea to find help is because no one there wants her for their leader. And one out of the four contestants wanting to attack us is a weak excuse for what we're about to do, and yes, it is an excuse, so is they are fine with it, so it's okay. Same way the house elves were fine with it, so it was okay to own them...

And the fact that they had their excuses set up and ready to go meant they knew some of the player base would take issue with heading to fantasy South America and colonizing it...so they knew better and did it anyway.

And yes, I am being uncharitable, because last expansion they set my character up to be directly responsible for 10+ genocides, so yes, I am a bit sensitive about the moral messaging coming from this game as of late.

Wild...

... Anyway. Let it be mentioned that no claimant has been put on the throne yet. This isn't a thing that's going to happen in quest #1 when we're straight off the boat. Wuk Lamat may not ever be put on the throne. I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up not landing it, or even outright refusing the position (at least I'd hope to be surprised, in a good way). I'm pretty hyped for where the story might go, and hope we see a lot of character development throughout it.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

They do this constantly, yes. This is just a particularly efficient form, because we've all played the part of the game they're misremembering/misunderstanding/ignoring like, two days ago.

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The issue they are having does not deal with the words on the page, but how it is presented against their own, personal, IRL beliefs. This could be for a variety of reasons, most likely all personal, but the point of the matter is that regardless of the framing the story does, it cannot escape the appearance where we are backing a specific person inside of a presumed contest for power, which is extremely beneficial for the foreign party as they are able to likely receive various concessions, some more significant than the rest, and where personal political favor can occur.

This is not too unheard of in the realm of IRL politics either, as nations or people will rally around someone who they perceive as the best person in regards to their own interests, be it personal or for a wider group of people and they will do this regardless of citizenship, especially with the reach of the internet. Foreign influence in these sorts of political contests, especially when a foreign military/fighting force/etc is involved, is generally not viewed as a good thing at this point in time. Working with foreign allies typically is less of an issue but can still raise a few eyebrows to this day as well. Working with a foreign adversary or someone viewed as an adversary for political gains is HEAVILY scrutinized.

Herein lies the issue. While it is encouraged behavior to speak with foreign powers in the game's setting (as it also typically is IRL for people inside of a democratic system as this happens rather often), us directly picking one side over the other in the setting's case, let alone us (WoL mainly) physically going over to Tural, is like having a world-class military IRL being present inside of the nation where this contest is going to take place. The WoL is also part of one of the three Grand Companies of Eorzea, and thus is actually a member of a formal military and as this cannot be skipped (using a story skip makes you a member of your starting nation's Grand Company), it is canonical. This can be extremely intimidating for anyone who lives in the nation as now a foreign power can project its military within its own borders during this process. And while we ourselves in the setting do not have a nation behind us per say, it is a rather common settlement in some parts of the world where it is the own citizenry of the foreign power who do not want the military to be present in a different nation, particularly if it is for political reasons related to political contests.

I do not know which country you are from, nor do I care. What I can tell is that for people from more war fatigued nations where it is there military conducting missions and being the one used globally, this is an unavoidable interpretation. This can also happen if someone's nation has also been subjected to this sort of behavior in the past, as people do have long memories and can read history.

Now that I have provided a perspective of how Lady_Silvermoon could have interpretations or opinions like she does, you directly attacking her character or making assumptions about her is extremely rude. You appear to demean and use remarks aimed directly at someone's overall character as a means of attempting to win arguments. The use of ad hominem is considered extremely weak in terms of actual arguing since you are directing arguments at a person themselves, hence why I do not like engaging with people who use it as a primary means of debate. From my experience IRL with people who do this, it usually means their arguments are, at best, extremely flimsy and are heavily based on personally held beliefs which do not necessarily reflect the matter being discussed.

Were I to use arguments presented to me from other forum posters, I would have to remind you your WoL does fondly remember characters you may not agree with at all or characters you despise and this is all within canon and directly stated. Emet-Selch seems to be one such character I have seen floating around recently as your WoL recalls him with relative frequency and wants you to remember they all once lived and you were friends with him. Whether you like this or not is a personal opinion, but this is what the game states, and is a reason why it is good to remember people can have different interpretations and feelings about specific events.

Finally, as I believe I have spoken about your behavior once before, I really must thank you for providing evidence backing up my claims without me needing to dig through old messages prior to that initial post. I do not like wasting my time with that. You should probably look that post over again and familiarize yourself with the behaviors I outlined.

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Originally Posted by Mayhemmer

... Anyway. Let it be mentioned that no claimant has been put on the throne yet. This isn't a thing that's going to happen in quest #1 when we're straight off the boat. Wuk Lamat may not ever be put on the throne. I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up not landing it, or even outright refusing the position (at least I'd hope to be surprised, in a good way).

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Hell, from what we've been shown we may not even personally participate in the contest for more than five minutes before it's eclipsed entirely by a greater threat. I get the sense we may be counting our discourse chickens before they hatch, but I suppose with half a year with nothing else to do it's bound to happen.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

And the fact that we've been told one of them wants to invade us makes our actions worse, not better, because that means we're installing her to serve our own political interests. That's colonizing.

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So if it’s in their people’s best interest to invade us we should just let it happen without investigating or doing anything about it because to prevent it is colonization?

The other thing I’d like to point out is that Tural is a monarchy. The current king of Tural has 4 heirs and gave them a trial to become the next ruler using the means at their disposal. They are well within their rights to enlist outside help, especially if one of their competitors wants to start a war they disagree with and they can get mercenaries from that region to help stop them.

If we were starting a coup and installing a dictator that would be one thing, but the current monarch is stepping down and allowing his 4 heirs to compete against each other for the throne. As a monarchy, the people have no say in what goes on regardless whether we were involved or not and if you think it is in their own best interest that a warmonger take the throne and start a world war, you are delusional.

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Originally Posted by ZavosEsperian

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I love how you admit that you didn't do any research on either of them and then proceed to attack one with no prior knowledge of either previous posting history then you get preachy while sitting atop your high horse.

As for the rest of that...post, you're doing the exact same thing Silvermoon is doing except worse. You're making a whole lot of assumptions and leaps in logic that aren't backed by anything in game AND TRYING TO JUSTIFY IT USING REAL WORLD EXAMPLES. To call it asinine would be an understatement, especially when you use the 'tired of war' example when one of the expressed reasons for potentially siding with Wuk is preventing a war by winning a contest.

There's theorizing and then there's spinning a whole yarn from nothing. You and her both are doing the latter and adding in nonsense that doesn't need to be there.

I'm not even defending the writing here, I think it's been crap since Shadowbringers, I just hate it when people assume a bunch of stupid stuff about a writers work based on literally zero evidence. Sometimes the sky is just blue.

Well, all of our assumptions are only that. Wuk Lamat could be lying to us about outsiders being encouraged. Could be lying about the intent of her rivals. Could be lying about her own intent.

Now, that's not really XIV's soft serve, bouncy castle way these days, but it is not outside of the realm of possibility.

I'm not too worried about coming across as colonizers. We have no colony making efforts, and they mentioned this Super Secret Agent Prince Miqote who just so happened to seek a Sharlayan education for... reasons unexplained.

So I think in the end it'll come down to other factions getting eliminated, and Wuk Lamat taking up Sharlayan ideas maybe because Super Secret Agent Miqote brother implores her to after he's eliminated from the race.

Then all our different Scion factions will come together to beat the baddies. And everything will be hunkidori. Kumbaya.

Also though, it's something of a problem in this subforum for a lot of users to read someone's takes, and then write them off as trolls/bad faith etc. Simply for seeing the story in a different light. Ironically, it's also somewhat bad faith itself, because intent was presumed, and a step even further was taken in insulting or belittling the poster with aggravating takes. This is a public forum, so if you want to curate your experience, please use the ignore/block feature. It's not that hard. And yes, you'll still see quotes or boxes scrunching up their conversations, but you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Also though, it's something of a problem in this subforum for a lot of users to read someone's takes, and then write them off as trolls/bad faith etc. Simply for seeing the story in a different light. Ironically, it's also somewhat bad faith itself, because intent was presumed, and a step even further was taken in insulting or belittling the poster with aggravating takes.

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It’s one thing to disagree based on the lore of what is actually in the game. It’s another to put a personal spin on it and go straight into phrases meant to start a fight like “Venat’s fascist agenda” and “doing a colonialism”.

If there’s any notion that we’re being lied to, while that hasn’t been hinted at yet, it’s certainly possible and I’d say is fair game to talk about. But going straight into “we’re colonizers for getting involved in someone else’s succession trial where it was explicitly stated that outside help is allowed and it’s considered political meddling for trying to stop one’s own small city-state from getting invaded much a much larger and more powerful empire” is a take that’s going to raise a few eyebrows and be considered to not be appropriate for discussion.

It doesn’t help either that the poster first came into this subforum by necroing a bunch of threads all at once, which is the same behavior seen by trolls here in the past.

Its funny as Hell and complete irony that people are having issue with the WoL and the scions getting involved in another regions politics. This is not the first time they have done this kind of thing. Its laughable how people are acting like this now about it.

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Originally Posted by Palladiamors

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I don't see what point you are trying to make. To me, it appears you failed to read my post completely and are making assumptions based on what you elected to read.

Were you to read my post in full, you would notice I never said Silvermoon's position was my own. In fact I am rather used to arguing in this way because of various college classes I have taken, where positions were assigned to us and you have to be able to articulate a defense or an attack even if you do not believe in what those things are. Were you in my class, you would have failed the instant you said that first sentence.

In addition, there is no need for me to mention post histories here. To me, the statements I have made are correct based on what I have observed, and what anyone lese can observe, through lurking on the forums as that is usually what I do. I do not like engaging much where I don't have to nor having to cite things where it should be common knowledge to anyone who frequents the forums, specifically the lore forums.

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Originally Posted by Palladiamors

I'm not even defending the writing here, I think it's been crap since Shadowbringers, I just hate it when people assume a bunch of stupid stuff about a writers work based on literally zero evidence.

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I can agree with you in terms of MSQ past 5.3. Personally I don't actually hate political intrigue stories and I have yet to make any real opinions on any recent MSQ as it does take me some time to fully process everything. What I will say is that a glossed over point regarding the WoL is the WoL belonging to a military, as the WoL has to have joined one of the three Grand Companies at some point in time, and in case of a story skip this is actually assigned to whatever your starting nation was (if you started in Limsa, for instance, you will be automatically assigned to The Maelstrom unless you skipped after selecting a Grand Company). I do not think this particular topic will arise but it is something worth noting when going over everything in full, particularly when dealing with a more militaristic opponent who could have potential knowledge of your military standing.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

*snip*
If we were starting a coup and installing a dictator that would be one thing, but the current monarch is stepping down and allowing his 4 heirs to compete against each other for the throne. As a monarchy, the people have no say in what goes on regardless whether we were involved or not and if you think it is in their own best interest that a warmonger take the throne and start a world war, you are delusional.

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We're not "investigating" we've agreed to compete in a contest to put a stranger in power for a free boat ride. The fact you have to downgrade our actions to "investigating" proves my point that what we're doing is both unwise and unethical.

We don't know if we're installing a dictator or not because we know nothing about her besides she's pretending to be braver than she is except when it comes to eating sus meat, she's very brave when it comes to that.

And again, we don't even know if the random person we're installing isn't a warmonger herself. We're not "protecting" anyone from anything by using our nuclear level power to influence politics in a region we've never even seen.

And please don't call me delusional. How people get away with insulting me so much on this forum is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

It’s one thing to disagree based on the lore of what is actually in the game. It’s another to put a personal spin on it and go straight into phrases meant to start a fight like “Venat’s fascist agenda” and “doing a colonialism”.

*snip*

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I've already explained in great detail why I believe murdering a group deemed as "weak" so that you can take their resources, their planet, their aether, their souls and giving it to a group you deem as "strong" is fascist. I can't simply decide to see it another way because that's not how belief works. I could be convinced, but people here are far more likely to resort to personal attacks than offer any perspective I haven't considered that would actually change my mind. I've already learned from past debates that to come to the same conclusion as you I'd have to hold several believes that not only contradict with my core values but contradict with each other. And I'm literally incapable of that. No one can decide to believe something they don't for the comfort of those around them. The best I could do is shut up about it and don't worry, the personal attacks will get me there soon enough.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Its funny as Hell and complete irony that people are having issue with the WoL and the scions getting involved in another regions politics. This is not the first time they have done this kind of thing. Its laughable how people are acting like this now about it.

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While there have been instances of the WoL behaving unethically in the past, those didn't happen right after EW. The whole "the WoL is so special they are worth the lives of billions" has made me a tad sensitive to future actions. Like okay, Venat just *had* to set up billions of people to die horribly so we could be created because we were needed to save the universe, sure... Well what now? Well now we take that power bought with immeasurable suffering and set up puppet governments in foreign lands...

Really? That's really where we're gonna go with this? It's like the game is trying to get me to side with Amon at this point...

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

Well, all of our assumptions are only that. Wuk Lamat could be lying to us about outsiders being encouraged. Could be lying about the intent of her rivals. Could be lying about her own intent.

Now, that's not really XIV's soft serve, bouncy castle way these days, but it is not outside of the realm of possibility.

I'm not too worried about coming across as colonizers. We have no colony making efforts, and they mentioned this Super Secret Agent Prince Miqote who just so happened to seek a Sharlayan education for... reasons unexplained.

So I think in the end it'll come down to other factions getting eliminated, and Wuk Lamat taking up Sharlayan ideas maybe because Super Secret Agent Miqote brother implores her to after he's eliminated from the race.

Then all our different Scion factions will come together to beat the baddies. And everything will be hunkidori. Kumbaya.

Also though, it's something of a problem in this subforum for a lot of users to read someone's takes, and then write them off as trolls/bad faith etc. Simply for seeing the story in a different light. Ironically, it's also somewhat bad faith itself, because intent was presumed, and a step even further was taken in insulting or belittling the poster with aggravating takes. This is a public forum, so if you want to curate your experience, please use the ignore/block feature. It's not that hard. And yes, you'll still see quotes or boxes scrunching up their conversations, but you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

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There was no belittling of Silvermoon. Cleretic simply pointed out that her takes are often divorced from reality. Zavos, on the other hand, straight up attacked Cleretic for pointing this out with zero prior knowledge of either poster and weaved an entire narrative around how Cleretic was ignorant. After that I merely pointed out that Zavos was morally grandstanding and acting superior while also having zero evidence to back anything up.

And here's the kicker: For all we know Wuk could wind up being the major villain of Dawntrail. But right now there is less than zero pointing to that. She's friends with Erenville and we trust him and while he doesn't want to admit to being close to her, he did tell her about us and help her find us. We know she's a blowhard, combat scares her even though she is very skilled. We know her county encourages their claimants to seek outside help and Erenville not refuting that while outright agreeing with her about mystery claimant X backs all that up. We know that we haven't agreed to help and we know two of the Scions are backing another candidate.

None of that in any way form or fashion points to colonization or installing a figurehead or starting a war. Actually pretty much most of it points to the opposite. Which I'm starting to realize is probably why modern day writers are moving away from subtlety.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

We're not "investigating" we've agreed to compete in a contest to put a stranger in power for a free boat ride. The fact you have to downgrade our actions to "investigating" proves my point that what we're doing is both unwise and unethical.

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You can do more than one thing at the same time. We’re very obviously going over to see what is going on as well as putting in a little adventure and helping cat princess.

We went to Doma to cause a diversion to help our main cause in Ala Mhigo and at the same time help put a prince on the throne after his retainers asked for it. We ended up becoming temporary khagan (until the next nadaam) by helping a tribe who asked for it too. Was that colonization then?

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

And please don't call me delusional. How people get away with insulting me so much on this forum is ridiculous.

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I said:
“if you think it is in their own best interest that a warmonger take the throne and start a world war, you are delusional.”

as in you’d have to be delusional to think a world war could be in people of Tural’s best interest but if you do, holy crap. A bunch of unaffiliated Eorzeans going to the west is bad, but a larger and more powerful western empire colonizing Eorzea is OK as long as it’s in their people’s best interest? When is a war for conquest in anyone’s best interest except for their ruler/ruling class?

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

You can do more than one thing at the same time. We’re very obviously going over to see what is going on as well as putting in a little adventure and helping cat princess.

We went to Doma to cause a diversion to help our main cause in Ala Mhigo and at the same time help put a prince on the throne after his retainers asked for it. We ended up becoming temporary khagan (until the next nadaam) by helping a tribe who asked for it too. Was that colonization then?




I said:
“if you think it is in their own best interest that a warmonger take the throne and start a world war, you are delusional.”

as in you’d have to be delusional to think a world war could be in people of Tural’s best interest but if you do, holy crap. A bunch of unaffiliated Eorzeans going to the west is bad, but a larger and more powerful western empire colonizing Eorzea is OK as long as it’s in their people’s best interest? When is a war for conquest in anyone’s best interest except for their ruler/ruling class?

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Yes, I did take issue with what we did in the nadaam. I watched other people play and get annoyed they had to pick up poop because they are the "chosen one" and my stance was we are showing up in these people's land to take control of their government in order to make them fight in a war for us...shut up and pick up the poop. And while I thought what we were doing was wrong, I wasn't nearly as bothered by it because at the time I viewed my WoL as a good fighter with a divine blessing that popped in whenever she was about to die. Keep in mind, that's the expansion where Zenos kicks our teeth in on a regular basis.

But thanks to EW, I am unfortunately aware that we're a super soldier built to save the universe on a pyre of billions of human sacrifices. So now what we do with that power impacts me a bit more. Since everyone here has memorized my post history, I'm sure you're aware I can't even fish now without thinking about what the writers decided it took to bring my character into existence. The only reasons for Venat to set the Ascians free to do the Rejoinings is if she's trying to make us specifically. That realization literally haunts me.

So yes, I really wish we were doing something less stupid and unethical with that power than what we seem to be doing. Like if we were going there for reasons other than to put a complete stranger into power, I would be relieved. Because I was afraid we'd go in the direction we seem to be going in. Even if we met with all these people and each decided who we were gonna help after that, it would be less stupid than what we're currently doing. We know nothing about her policies, how she's viewed by her people, she just showed up and so we're gonna put a crown on her head.

Also, if the "threat" of a 1/4 claimant to the throne being a warmonger is enough reason to install our own, where does it stop? What if Hein's kid isn't a good guy, is it our job to put him down? What if Aymeric is replaced with a warmonger? Is it our job to go install someone else who will work in our interests? Why are we only installing rulers we like? Why don't we just force democracy on every land we go to?

Is it really our right to go around the world and shape it into whatever form suits us best because we have the power to do so? Oh wait, that's what Venat did, nevermind, I already know the stance there.