Make Deployment Tactics DPS Neutral

I’m not here to discuss whether big shields are good or bad or any other thing.

The change to make WHM Lilies DPS neutral was a fantastic change, especially since SE wants WHMs to be using their lilies. That is, you shouldn’t be punished for doing the thing SE wants you to do.

Since the design philosophy for SCH is the big deploy, they should apply it here too since a major reason SCH healers despise DT is because it costs a Broil.

I think they should follow through on their philosophy and double the damage of the SCH’s next damage spell when they successfully deploy a Galvanize.

Considering they made sge shields overwrite sch shields regardless of the amount of dmg they each would (still) prevent, I am not sure 'spread big shields' is SEs take on SCH.
Though ever since they ripped all the dots out of it I am not sure what their idea of sch is any ways.


That said I would welcome a change like that. Giving a reason to actually use GCD heals for even just a few extra casts would at least put a little dent in the amount of broils thrown around.

Couple of things that came to my mind immediately if we get to double our next spell potency was to try to do it to boost my Biolysis for a whooping 1,400p DoT, and I'll probably start seeing people wasting deployment just for that then internally cry because those 30s shield just get wasted absorbing nothing.

Rather than tying it to Deployment, maybe it'd make more sense to tie it to Catalyze shields (the crit one), such that Recitation becomes the 'makes Adlo damage neutral' button? It'd indirectly cause Deploy Adlo to be damage neutral, as the main target of the Adlo would have a Catalyze, but only that person as Catalyze does not spread via Deploy (so you don't have 8 instances of 'damage neutrality' on a raidwide). An effect for Catalyze which says 'returns damage to the enemy which breaks this shield, equal to Broil's potency', job done. That's how I'd do it at least, if I had to implement such a change.

Though personally, I don't necessarily agree that such a change would be good for the game's balance. The entire thing of 'it's a super strong shield, at the cost of a GCD' is a key thing for SCH's design and balance, if it did not have to worry about that, then it'd be stronger shielding, stronger mitigation suite AND stronger damage than SGE (even during prog) so SGE would likely start getting shunned from PF. I remember getting flak in P8S week 1 for playing SGE, because 'its shit damage, SCH is way stronger'. Went to check stats, turns out it was 60 DPS less at 95th% at the time. A change like this would cement that sentiment in the 'heard it on reddit, parrot it without any understanding' player circles

A quick fix is to make Deployment Tactics to instead add the Catalyze effect to Succor

Why does everything have to be damage neutral? Do you really want the healer role to enter a dead end of meaningless choices where the only consequence is that you don't get to see this particular set of pretty lights because you used it before?

Honestly, if someone has a problem dropping one singular GCD of damage spell casts to set up a shield, then maybe they don't actually want to play a healer?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

Why does everything have to be damage neutral? Do you really want the healer role to enter a dead end of meaningless choices where the only consequence is that you don't get to see this particular set of pretty lights because you used it before?

Honestly, if someone has a problem dropping one singular GCD of damage spell casts to set up a shield, then maybe they don't actually want to play a healer?

---

Everyone's so allergic to using GCD healing because GCD healing got a bad rep due to low and predictable damage in the current state of the game. :x There's rarely any instances of needing GCD healing outside of high-end content, and even then most of the healing is just done with oGCDs or damage neutral healing.

It would be nice to see GCD healing incentivized by cutting down on redundant healing skills for a change.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Everyone's so allergic to using GCD healing because GCD healing got a bad rep due to low and predictable damage in the current state of the game. :x There's rarely any instances of needing GCD healing outside of high-end content, and even then most of the healing is just done with oGCDs or damage neutral healing.

It would be nice to see GCD healing incentivized by cutting down on redundant healing skills for a change.

---

I am aware that GCD healing is frowned upon by the community and it's also not incentivised by fight design. But I have to ask, if someone is so averse to GCD healing that they frown upon even casting one singular healing GCD in a span of 90 seconds, do they really want to play a healer in the first place?

This isn't really about design, it's about mindset. The reason lilies became damage neutral in the first place is because WHM players refuse to touch the lilies due to a damage loss, lilies were intended to be a partial refund, not a full refund, just like Ruin II is a partial refund when you have to move too far to slidecast. I'd argue that people who want to play a healer should understand the necessity of losing a cast of their damage spell if needs be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bole

Can you expand on why such damage neutral GCD healing should be incentivized? Is it significantly different from just weaving an oGCD shield (like consolation, or holos) with Broil?
Personally, I like tools that are DPS losses, because they give you a reason to make changes to your heal plan to gain DPS the next time you do the fight.

---

I didn't say damage neutral GCD healing should be incentivized. I said GCD healing should be incentivized. Too much free healing tools and predictable low incoming damage is what led people to being adverse to GCD healing in the first place - simply because there's never a reason to encourage its use. It's a skill that just eats up a hotbar slot when you have too many excessive healing skills.

Deployment was more interesting when we had other stuff that it could interact with it, Eg Eye for an Eye.

I wonder if it'd be neat to allow it to spread very specific healer buffs, aka WHM's PoM, AST cards etc, probably with a reduced potency to stop SCH becoming mandatory because of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebazy

Deployment was more interesting when we had other stuff that it could interact with it, Eg Eye for an Eye.

I wonder if it'd be neat to allow it to spread very specific healer buffs, aka WHM's PoM, AST cards etc, probably with a reduced potency to stop SCH becoming mandatory because of it.

---

This. The only reason for the conception and implementation of D3ployment tactics is that it is working with Eye for an Eye. Now that it is no longer a thing, it no longer makes sense to use it to deploy Adlo anymore. Instead, it is more logical to make it give Catalyze effect to Succor... preventing pesky SGEs to overwrite it so easily.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

I am aware that GCD healing is frowned upon by the community and it's also not incentivised by fight design. But I have to ask, if someone is so averse to GCD healing that they frown upon even casting one singular healing GCD in a span of 90 seconds, do they really want to play a healer in the first place?

This isn't really about design, it's about mindset. The reason lilies became damage neutral in the first place is because WHM players refuse to touch the lilies due to a damage loss, lilies were intended to be a partial refund, not a full refund, just like Ruin II is a partial refund when you have to move too far to slidecast. I'd argue that people who want to play a healer should understand the necessity of losing a cast of their damage spell if needs be.

---

I think the problem is that the role that is healing gets punished for using heals. But that problem is way more prevalent in ff14 because the dmg the party takes is scripted. In wow for example gcd healing is a pretty normal thing and no one has a meltdown over it (and because there is no ogcd healing). The problem in ff is that ogcd healing in 90 % of the situations is enough and dmg positive. Also the rest of the tool kit that isn’t healing is just spamming 1 until 2 runs out every 30 seconds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

Why does everything have to be damage neutral? Do you really want the healer role to enter a dead end of meaningless choices where the only consequence is that you don't get to see this particular set of pretty lights because you used it before?

Honestly, if someone has a problem dropping one singular GCD of damage spell casts to set up a shield, then maybe they don't actually want to play a healer?

---

Holy moly, just look at this very game to get an example of how to do it right:

Afflatus Solace/Rapture
Macrocosm
Pneuma

Just put these damage GCD heals on a cooldown and they become another tool for you to use much like an OGCD except they actually break the Broil spam monotony, which is the entire point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eisi

Holy moly, just look at this very game to get an example of how to do it right:

Afflatus Solace/Rapture
Macrocosm
Pneuma

Just put these damage GCD heals on a cooldown and they become another tool for you to use much like an OGCD except they actually break the Broil spam monotony, which is the entire point.

---

If you aim to make healing a totally brainless activity that even bots can do because there's exactly zero fail states, then sure.

I don't know about you, but I enjoy making choices that avoid failure and also actually using my brain when playing games.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

If you aim to make healing a totally brainless activity that even bots can do because there's exactly zero fail states, then sure.

I don't know about you, but I enjoy making choices that avoid failure and also actually using my brain when playing games.

---

Nice strawman. What is the difference between healing DPS-neutrally with an OGCD on a cooldown versus with a GCD on a cooldown? Keywords here are "on a cooldown".

By the way I literally gave you the examples. There is absolutely no reason for you to be this obtuse, unless you want to see Lily heals gone from the game because you don't understand how they work and think they are braindead?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bole

I’m not who you’re responding to but yes I don’t like the idea that lily heals are turning into “damage happens, press this button to heal it with no consequence”. I am not opposed to it, because at least some healer should be more approachable.

I think that some heals should be DPS losses so that you have something to optimize. I realize that all of the examples that you shared have some ways of optimizing damage, but it is also undeniable that the philosophy of making too many heals damage neutral does reduce the skill ceiling.

---

Would you be in favor of a damage penalty on the use of OGCD heals? So that they for example reduce the damage of your next Broil by 10%?

What I don't like about this focus on GCD-neutrality as some sort of boogeyman is that's not at all the point if you think that we have access to too many damage neutral healing cooldowns. If you want to get rid of them, fine, reduce the amount. But don't act like it has anything to do with whether they are GCD-based or not.

I think Aravell wants a trade: deal extra DPS or Heal... much like how PLD is with Clemency. The current situation with the rest of the healer is like how WAR is at the moment, dealing damage and at the same time, healing themselves in the process.

The problem with the latter is that you are not penalized or there is no thinking required. You will not lose out your precious contribution to overall raid dps when your healing is DPS neutral while in SCH's case, you have to choose whether or not to lose out on dps in favor of healing.

I am totally fine with this trade. Look at it this way.. Assize. It is damage and healing in a single button. When was the last time you asked yourself, "I need to hold on the use of this ability to top up my party?" Close to never right? It's because of the damage component of the ability. The healing aspect was considered as a bonus when the intent was it is healing first, the damage as a bonus.

Since the boss mechanics in 14 is scripted, you should know when or when not to sacrifice an oGCD for healing than doing damage with ED. And for that, we have Recitation to take care of the emergency Excogitation/Indomitability usage. But if you badly want your DPS neutral change, then lowering Recitation cooldown to 30 secs and a trait to make it hold up to 2 charges, might be what you want, so you can use your Aetherflow stacks exclusively on Energy Drain, only.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eisi

Nice strawman. What is the difference between healing DPS-neutrally with an OGCD on a cooldown versus with a GCD on a cooldown? Keywords here are "on a cooldown".

By the way I literally gave you the examples. There is absolutely no reason for you to be this obtuse, unless you want to see Lily heals gone from the game because you don't understand how they work and think they are braindead?

---

Why yes, I would like lily heals gone from the game if it's damage neutral. I vastly preferred the ShB incarnation, you can plan around a damage refund, you don't have to plan around damage neutrality. It's not hard to see that total damage neutrality removes meaning to your choices because there is no consequence, unless you're the one being willingly obtuse perhaps?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rawker

I think Aravell wants a trade: deal extra DPS or Heal... much like how PLD is with Clemency. The current situation with the rest of the healer is like how WAR is at the moment, dealing damage and at the same time, healing themselves in the process.

---

Yes, I want the healer role to choose. You either do damage or you heal, you shouldn't be handed things for free by being allowed to do both at the same time. I don't mind certain things to be damage neutral, but if the cost isn't damage, it should be something else, a long CD or MP perhaps? Lilies are too cheap for what they offer. 4 totally free casts per minute is way too much, and that's without mentioning WHM's other ways to heal without losing damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bole

SCH already has damage penalty on many of its oGCD heals (you lose energy drains). I love it even though it has become unpopular because no other healer loses DPS to heal.

It’s only in end walker that we started getting damage neutral healing GCDs. The optimization game until shadowbringers was to reduce GCD heals. I think that’s what people meant when they wanted to encourage more GCD healing (without mentioning the exceptions to the rule of GCD heals being DPS losses).

---

Isn't ED so popular that they had to bring it back because the demand was so high in the community? Not even Kaiten was that big of a deal.

In my opinion they should cut down on available OGCD heals and extend neutrality on GCD heals (again: with cooldowns, no unlimited free spam with no decision-making involved) so that there is a bit more variety among GCDs. The real challenge even now isn't to reduce GCD healing, it's to reduce DPS-negative healing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

Why yes, I would like lily heals gone from the game if it's damage neutral. I vastly preferred the ShB incarnation, you can plan around a damage refund, you don't have to plan around damage neutrality. It's not hard to see that total damage neutrality removes meaning to your choices because there is no consequence, unless you're the one being willingly obtuse perhaps?

---

Ok, we're done. I wasn't talking about total damage neutrality, I went out of my way to say that I want that neutrality to be on a cooldown - just like OGCDs. There's not any more I can do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eisi

Isn't ED so popular that they had to bring it back because the demand was so high in the community? Not even Kaiten was that big of a deal.

In my opinion they should cut down on available OGCD heals and extend neutrality on GCD heals (again: with cooldowns, no unlimited free spam with no decision-making involved) so that there is a bit more variety among GCDs. The real challenge even now isn't to reduce GCD healing, it's to reduce DPS-negative healing.

---

Bringing back my other point with ED is that it is intended to be used to utilize any unused aetherflow stacks when Aetherflow goes off cooldown. If you do not need the healing, then you are given the choice to use it for damage and be rewarded, despite minimally.

And now look at how absurd is with SGE to spend gall stacks when you don't need to just because it is also tied to your MP sustain?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eisi

Ok, we're done. I wasn't talking about total damage neutrality, I went out of my way to say that I want that neutrality to be on a cooldown - just like OGCDs. There's not any more I can do.

---

You mentioned the lily spells, and you mentioned it would help reduce the amount of filler spam we're doing. You are aware that WHM still spends 70-80% of their GCDs using their spam filler, yes? So how often do you want these damage neutral options to become available to cut into the filler spam? Certainly a lot more than every 20 seconds if you intend to cut the filler spam down to a more reasonable 50%? Does that not end up being so often that it reduces the thought required to plan everything out?

I cannot lay it out clearer than that. Take it or don't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

You mentioned the lily spells, and you mentioned it would help reduce the amount of filler spam we're doing. You are aware that WHM still spends 70-80% of their GCDs using their spam filler, yes? So how often do you want these damage neutral options to become available to cut into the filler spam? Certainly a lot more than every 20 seconds if you intend to cut the filler spam down to a more reasonable 50%? Does that not end up being so often that it reduces the thought required to plan everything out?

I cannot lay it out clearer than that. Take it or don't.

---

Oh, so you've already moved that far have you? I am glad we agree and that you are actually in favor of Lily heals and therefore of neutral GCD options in general.

Moving a neutral healing cooldown from OGCD to GCD doesn't reduce total choice-making whatsoever. It does increase GCD variety.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eisi

Oh, so you've already moved that far have you? I am glad we agree and that you are actually in favor of Lily heals and therefore of neutral GCD options in general.

---

I guess you don't want a discussion, that's fine, I disagree, we move on.

Besides, if SE wants to give SGE the SCH treatment in terms of having choices, Rhizomata should instead be giving MP at the cost of 1 Addersgall stack.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

If you aim to make healing a totally brainless activity that even bots can do because there's exactly zero fail states, then sure.

I don't know about you, but I enjoy making choices that avoid failure and also actually using my brain when playing games.

---

I argue that healing atm is pretty brainless. Mechs in higher difficulty are 99 % body checks anyway so doesn’t matter how good you actual heal if a person dies at a key point in time you can’t recover. Like we can take top for example. You can ogcd heal almost all mechs and have enough downtime for some gcd heals that aren’t even a dps loss. Or p12 were you have for all mechs ogcd tools if you have decent co healer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

Why yes, I would like lily heals gone from the game if it's damage neutral. I vastly preferred the ShB incarnation, you can plan around a damage refund, you don't have to plan around damage neutrality. It's not hard to see that total damage neutrality removes meaning to your choices because there is no consequence, unless you're the one being willingly obtuse perhaps?



Yes, I want the healer role to choose. You either do damage or you heal, you shouldn't be handed things for free by being allowed to do both at the same time. I don't mind certain things to be damage neutral, but if the cost isn't damage, it should be something else, a long CD or MP perhaps? Lilies are too cheap for what they offer. 4 totally free casts per minute is way too much, and that's without mentioning WHM's other ways to heal without losing damage.

---

Yeah I would love too have a choose in more then just the healing department, because let’s be honest as long as the fights are 100 % scripted we will never have really meaningful choice. Doesn’t matter if its as healer, tank or dps. There will always be a optimal rotation and gcd/ogcd buttons (and yes removing ogcd and dmg neutral heals will just swap these buttons for a medica I or II or maybe even cure 3 but ff14 had that problem since years). It’s hard too think that actually changing healing and not the dps rotation would change the healer role in any meaningful way because let’s be honest pressing 4 times medica or 4 times glare isn’t different in any way shape or form in my eyes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rawker

Besides, if SE wants to give SGE the SCH treatment in terms of having choices, Rhizomata should instead be giving MP at the cost of 1 Addersgall stack.

---

Atleast make kardia meaningful. Or in general make the unique aspect of the healers way more different. Astro= time magic and fate with cards.
Sch= battle tactics and fairy. Sgn= Kardia and changing way more heals/dps spells with eukrasis. Whm= Astra elemental magic with wind/water and earth spells.

Like every healing spell is either single target or aoe. I miss a healing spell that bounce after watch heal or something we’re my position has a impact because it’s something I send out from my position. There are ways making the role interesting the problem is that they have only 4 job designer and they have no clue about anything healer because on one of them is a healer player.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rawker

This. The only reason for the conception and implementation of D3ployment tactics is that it is working with Eye for an Eye. Now that it is no longer a thing, it no longer makes sense to use it to deploy Adlo anymore. Instead, it is more logical to make it give Catalyze effect to Succor... preventing pesky SGEs to overwrite it so easily.

---

Call me that person who just wanna watch the world to burn if you will: I kinda wish they keep it this way because it gives me a reason to communicate… or a reason to just chad them if they keep overwriting. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

Why yes, I would like lily heals gone from the game if it's damage neutral. I vastly preferred the ShB incarnation, you can plan around a damage refund, you don't have to plan around damage neutrality. It's not hard to see that total damage neutrality removes meaning to your choices because there is no consequence, unless you're the one being willingly obtuse perhaps?

Yes, I want the healer role to choose. You either do damage or you heal, you shouldn't be handed things for free by being allowed to do both at the same time. I don't mind certain things to be damage neutral, but if the cost isn't damage, it should be something else, a long CD or MP perhaps? Lilies are too cheap for what they offer. 4 totally free casts per minute is way too much, and that's without mentioning WHM's other ways to heal without losing damage.

---

This problem is a bit more nuanced than dps refund or not. Frankly, healing skills being a DPS loss/partial refund actually results in less choices in the current design because there's really no decision to be had when the current meta of healing is lossless healing via healing abilities (oGCD healing). You choose the less expensive choice, which ultimately ends up being free healing without dps cost. The current problem with healing brings 2 states of failure for engagement:

1. You have too many healing skills and choices that most of them doesn't matter. However, with both oGCD heals and DPS neutral healing, at least you CAN choose which heal you want to optimize healing efficiency when things go bad. However, that becomes an illusion of choice if consistent damage is severely lacking.
2. When you have different cost in damage refund, it ultimately becomes "what is the least expensive cost skill to heal with?" And in the current state with all this oGCD healing, the choice is so linear that damage refund skills can become a static healing rotation -- which is the worst choice for a playstyle that wants to adapt to situations like a healer. Likewise, turning all skills into a DPS refund is basically a convoluted method to reducing the amount of damage on your nuke and turning your damage refund skills into the new "oGCD healing" priority buttons. I wouldn't call that really engaging since it's basically the healer way to look at 1-2-3 rotations. Though if it just becomes all partial refunds that does damage greater than your nuke in one GCD, we might just end up saving it all on a burst window, so it still becomes 2-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 until then.

The reason why partial dps loss works on SCH so well is because Scholar addresses both of these issues and can get a DPS gain when they manage their aetherflow skills properly rather than always facing a partial DPS loss -- without compromising on adaptive play. Scholar faces skill lockout throughout its toolkit (soft locks like Aetherpact, Hard locks like Dissipation and Seraph), and this is what makes the current state of Scholar where everything becomes a 'tactical' balancing act work. On top of trying to manage a DPS gain, they also have to consider changing their strategies if people suddenly start taking avoidable damage while facing skill lockout. There becomes choice with the change in combat rather than a static rotation which always grants a partial DPS gain/loss via aetherflow.

Though, considering how some people dislike skill lockout (dissipation), that's not a playstyle I think everyone will enjoy and doesn't need to be replicated on other healers.

But because damage is generally low and scripted, a lot of SCH end up facing the illusion of choice anyway in simple content because they never need to adapt when everyone knows what to do.