Still Waiting for that Sam/Nin nerf

We all know it needs to happen.

Sam - LB that instant 100/0 people with little to no counter play.

Nin - LB that chain kills people at 50% health or less.

Both classes have very good survivability and sustain/burst.

Get rid of this trash Yoshi. I get it, JP bias towards these classes, but let's not forget the following facts:

1. The only reason Japan survived the mongol invasion was because a storm wiped out their fleet after they had nearly beaten the samurai into submission.

2. ninjas were memes who still got cut down by samurai because they were farmers dressed in pantyhose liners that covered their heads.

Also you know what makes me angry? The whole idea that samurai used their inferior swords (ill take a European one anyday) as anymore than a backup/status weapon.

The Japanese historically were masters of the spear/polearm, the bow, and surprisingly, axes.

If I was JP, I'd be pretty annoyed/insulted at the insane amount of historically inaccurate attention these meme longswords get compared to the literal historically legendary skill they had with spears/bows.

Hell, I'm not JP and I'm annoyed/insulted for them. It's an injustice to actual history which is cool, compared to the lame otaku garbage we have represented today.

Justice for JP history please.

:rolleyes::D
Shield for Zantetsuken
Learn to recuperate and delay Nin for 5s

https://media.tenor.com/7NdBVF53PM4A...ghing-rofl.gif

At the risk of posting on a troll thread (if you're serious about your feedback I'm not sure this history lesson was the best way to go about it lol), I have to mostly agree with you. SAM LB is the cheapest and most disruptive skill in pvp at the moment, leaving you guessing, or straight up stop attacking every time a SAM has Chiten up. Not being able to attack unless you can shield yourself (and even that is risky) for 5 seconds, when there might be multiple SAMs on enemy GCs (or even just one in CC) is an actual issue. Let's not talk about stray AoEs that trigger it.... just absurd. Why not just make it flat damage all around the SAM, just like Sky Shatter, without the damage by distance thing? Just a lower potency.

As for NIN the LB is annoying but also useful. I tend to consider NINs in FL as useless players who just wait for other people to drop enemies low enough so they can use their LB. But as lame as these people are they still have their use, especially against melees/tanks, the ability to one one shot past 50% HP is a good way to quickly remove tanky targets and move on to the ones at the back.

I don't remember the last time I got LB'd by a SAM or NIN. Learn to counter. Of all the jobs/comps in PvP right now, SAM and NIN are the least of a concern.

I see this thread is awash in unranked/bronze responses. I guess I'll take this moment to educate you all since you may one day have the desire to play a ranked match, or aspire to reach silver.

Sam LB does your full HP worth in damage. It goes through shield. The only way to counter it when you have the debuff is to have a barrier and be at full health (or stun the sam in the hopes they dont have enough time during their debuff to hit their LB and finish the cast time. Lol good luck on that. unless you're spending time with him targeted, Yoshi and crew's design on targeting and accuracy of their ui/macros is abysmal).

An intelligent sam (not your guys' tier, we're talking silver 4+), can use the mere threat of his/her gauge to sit on a crystal point and fish out the one or two errant area of effects that may come his way and yeetus deletus high value DPS targets. A sam's presence with full LB on the point causes your entire team to shift tactics if he wants. It also gives him impunity to dive high DPS targets and if you go to peel them, gg, you're done.

As for ninja, there's no recuping a ninja's LB. He's waiting on the dip, and if they are competent, they'll even throw one of their TWO stuns on top, so you have to waste a GCD / animation lock just to hit your OGCD recup on stun break which good luck, you'll never beat the lb animation to hit your recup in time even if you're at 49.999999% health. Shout out to the 2004 system that either is batching or replicates the batching of attacks. Real nice design choice there, I must say.

I'm glad I could inform you, good luck in your first ranked games to come.

Skill issue thread.

At least mention drg in there to be taken slightly serious.

SAM: Look for chiten. Don't hit them for 5 seconds. If you hit them run away far enough or guard.

NIN: Stay above 50%

I nerfed them with skill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akimitsu

At the risk of posting on a troll thread (if you're serious about your feedback I'm not sure this history lesson was the best way to go about it lol), I have to mostly agree with you. SAM LB is the cheapest and most disruptive skill in pvp at the moment, leaving you guessing, or straight up stop attacking every time a SAM has Chiten up. Not being able to attack unless you can shield yourself (and even that is risky) for 5 seconds, when there might be multiple SAMs on enemy GCs (or even just one in CC) is an actual issue. Let's not talk about stray AoEs that trigger it.... just absurd. Why not just make it flat damage all around the SAM, just like Sky Shatter, without the damage by distance thing? Just a lower potency.

As for NIN the LB is annoying but also useful. I tend to consider NINs in FL as useless players who just wait for other people to drop enemies low enough so they can use their LB. But as lame as these people are they still have their use, especially against melees/tanks, the ability to one one shot past 50% HP is a good way to quickly remove tanky targets and move on to the ones at the back.

---

Cheapest skill you say.

Have you heard about our lord and savior 'Miracle Of Nature' Please let me know the counter play for that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpritePR

SAM: Look for chiten. Don't hit them for 5 seconds. If you hit them run away far enough or guard.

NIN: Stay above 50%

I nerfed them with skill.

---

Do you know Sam lb ignores guard if you got the debuff?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpritePR

SAM: Look for chiten. Don't hit them for 5 seconds. If you hit them run away far enough or guard.

NIN: Stay above 50%

I nerfed them with skill.

---

Ooh so this is why I am having free kills as Samurai, people still think Guard will save them after being hit LOL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jettinson

Ooh so this is why I am having free kills as Samurai, people still think Guard will save them after being hit LOL

---

Them bronzes gonna bronze I guess. It's alarming how confidently they post without actually know what they're talking about.

By the by, what's up with the ranked queue? It's 30 minutes long and it keeps changing and dropping queue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yaba_gabagool

Them bronzes gonna bronze I guess. It's alarming how confidently they post without actually know what they're talking about.

By the by, what's up with the ranked queue? It's 30 minutes long and it keeps changing and dropping queue.

---

Cuz There is no incentive to play ranked... I got the weapon glamour for sage, Then l stopped playing ranked immediately. The stress to get to the diamond just isn't worth it. I mean l had plan B for a cool sage weapon if l can't make it to crystal. This game can learn from Guild wars 2's ranked 5v5. There is a special series that can only be progressed from playing ranked. And the rewards are not gated behind certain ranks, But you get xp in that special series a lot faster if you can win games at higher ranks.

ninja has been nerfed 4 times in a row since the inception of cc, and samurai is easy to outplay if ur being cognizant of their buffs. if the samurai were as strong u claim, they would have beaten the mongols swiftly and easily

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eastwall

Cuz There is no incentive to play ranked... I got the weapon glamour for sage, Then l stopped playing ranked immediately. The stress to get to the diamond just isn't worth it. I mean l had plan B for a cool sage weapon if l can't make it to crystal. This game can learn from Guild wars 2's ranked 5v5. There is a special series that can only be progressed from playing ranked. And the rewards are not gated behind certain ranks, But you get xp in that special series a lot faster if you can win games at higher ranks.

---

yes, but then people will cry about exclusive rewards, because 90% of this player-base is made up of casuals who only do content for the rewards, and not the content itself.
example: The Feast

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jettinson

Ooh so this is why I am having free kills as Samurai, people still think Guard will save them after being hit LOL

---

Zantetsuken just straight up misses sometimes due to server ticks and weird LOS issues. I probably misremembered guard decreasing damage by a tiny amount. Regardless not hitting the sam works.

I think both LBs are fine when it comes to their design/function. SAM is the easiest to counter once you begin to pay closer attention to enemy LB gauges and player SFX. My only gripe is getting the chiten debuff if I hit the SAM with an AoE, even if I am not focusing them directly which ruins part of the counterplay behind it. If they just changed that I would personally think its fine the way it is. Same with NIN's LB, since it's something they can't easily abuse by themselves and is only really effective in a team fight. Only real gripe with it is the range it has, if they capped it by half I feel like it wouldn't be as egregious.

As for their overall kits I think they are fine. NIN has the strength of having an incredibly versatile kit, but with the drawback of it been a bit infrequent. The way Kissatsu is designed makes it able to adapt to whatever situation the NIN is in, but limits the NIN to not be able to be able to frequently adapt or abuse abilities. For SAM I don't think their kit is that bad either, the Ogi and Midare are telegraphed enough to where you can counter them in specific scenarios. And I don't think their sustain is that bad either, Chiten is good but besides that it doesn't feel incredibly bad either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yaba_gabagool

We all know it needs to happen.

Sam - LB that instant 100/0 people with little to no counter play.

Nin - LB that chain kills people at 50% health or less.

Both classes have very good survivability and sustain/burst.

Get rid of this trash Yoshi. I get it, JP bias towards these classes, but let's not forget the following facts:

1. The only reason Japan survived the mongol invasion was because a storm wiped out their fleet after they had nearly beaten the samurai into submission.

2. ninjas were memes who still got cut down by samurai because they were farmers dressed in pantyhose liners that covered their heads.

Also you know what makes me angry? The whole idea that samurai used their inferior swords (ill take a European one anyday) as anymore than a backup/status weapon.

The Japanese historically were masters of the spear/polearm, the bow, and surprisingly, axes.

If I was JP, I'd be pretty annoyed/insulted at the insane amount of historically inaccurate attention these meme longswords get compared to the literal historically legendary skill they had with spears/bows.

Hell, I'm not JP and I'm annoyed/insulted for them. It's an injustice to actual history which is cool, compared to the lame otaku garbage we have represented today.

Justice for JP history please.

---

Well get comfy, because based on what I read on a different thread..:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yaba_gabagool

Until a critical point comes to where they absolutely need to adapt, they'll drag their feet on making iterative changes or deviations in their original plan.

---

I don't think we're gonna see any SAM or NIN LB changes.

But in all seriousness, what would be an adequate replacement if you wanted the SAM/NIN LBs changed? I could agree that getting killed by a SAM because of the bi-product on an AoE attack is annoying. That being said, I'm happy where SAM and NIN are currently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yaba_gabagool

We all know it needs to happen.

Sam - LB that instant 100/0 people with little to no counter play.

Nin - LB that chain kills people at 50% health or less.

Both classes have very good survivability and sustain/burst.

---

Step 1. Be good.
Step 2. Don't be not good.
Step 3. See steps 1 and 2.

But trolling aside. Instead of blaming it on the jobs, maybe learn to be more aware of their LBs. Crystal players rarely die to SAM LB. That's mostly because they have more awareness of what's going on instead of hurr durr "I hit things in front of me." Prolonged games can definitely be harder to focus but awareness is something that can be "learned." Play some casuals and try to make a habit of looking at the party and enemy list real quick every so often so that you can gauge who has LB, who's LB works well with yours, which LB is dangerous to you/your team, who has low MP, etc.

-If you don't hit the SAM while he has chiten up, you won't get 1 shot.
-If you do hit the SAM, you can LoS (line of sight) him if you're fast enough in awareness. Granted, if he already "queued" LB on you, you're still gonna die. But if one of your teammates, or EVEN YOU - stuns, silences, binds him, it should give you enough time to hit a corner. Your positioning matters a lot. If you're out in the open when you don't need to be, you're not playing effectively.
-If you know you goofed and hit the SAM with chiten (and you "know" you're going to die), then run somewhere far from your teammates - there's an offchance that 1. you'll only die alone without your teammates dying too, 2. the SAM targets your teammates and you live. And then the SAM has to wait for his long LB charge again, all for 1 lousy kill.

How to counter NIN? Sound helps. You hear the NIN LB go off on someone? Or you see that it's ready?
1. Guard (but make sure you're at a decent HP). This pretty much stops NIN LB from chaining.
2. Spam recuperate if you don't have guard.
3. You know you're gonna be focused by NIN LB? Run to Narnia so you cause the NIN to waste time going back to the main group fighting. Chances are, he's only going to get 1 kill from a long CD.

All it takes to counter these 2 jobs is a little effort from your noggin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yaba_gabagool

I see this thread is awash in unranked/bronze responses. I guess I'll take this moment to educate you all since you may one day have the desire to play a ranked match, or aspire to reach silver.

Sam LB does your full HP worth in damage. It goes through shield. The only way to counter it when you have the debuff is to have a barrier and be at full health (or stun the sam in the hopes they dont have enough time during their debuff to hit their LB and finish the cast time. Lol good luck on that. unless you're spending time with him targeted, Yoshi and crew's design on targeting and accuracy of their ui/macros is abysmal).

---

So what you're saying is you have the solution but refuse to actually execute it. Or can't. I guess it makes sense that you can identify an unranked/bronze response. Sounds like you need a bit more practice. You'll figure it out one day champ, I believe in you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aubrey_A

Well get comfy, because based on what I read on a different thread..:



I don't think we're gonna see any SAM or NIN LB changes.

But in all seriousness, what would be an adequate replacement if you wanted the SAM/NIN LBs changed? I could agree that getting killed by a SAM because of the bi-product on an AoE attack is annoying. That being said, I'm happy where SAM and NIN are currently.

---

Tbh the only reason I could see LB changes for them is for them to not feel like a useless nothingburger when the conditions aren't met. Zant is easy to play around and Seiton is a hot mess with server and heal ticks.

I personally dislike NIN lb a bit, but it is nothing I'd lose sleep over.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Tbh the only reason I could see LB changes for them is for them to not feel like a useless nothingburger when the conditions aren't met. Zant is easy to play around and Seiton is a hot mess with server and heal ticks.

I personally dislike NIN lb a bit, but it is nothing I'd lose sleep over.

---

If I could change Ninja's LB, I keep the theme but change the execution. Instead of a tick/heal dependant, all-or-nothing LB, I would see the NIN LB apply a DoT. The DoT itself does damage equal to 50% of the affected jobs HP, but those ticks take place over an exceptionally short period of time (similar to what PvE Pyretic does). Same reuse effect if it scores a kill. Some counterplay against it? Yes, but will it be a secured kill if they can't recupe more than twice? Also yes

I’ve been levelling a lot of my classes in frontlines and I have to say, I do think SAM needs a total rework. Not because it’s too strong, but just because nothing about the job works.

The LB is cheap and just a gimmick that makes people feel bad that they lost their battle high to something stupid. The gap closer changing your single target attacks to point blank melee range AoEs just doesn’t work because when you gap close to someone that’s running away your AoE doesn’t register as hitting them where a single target attack would and cast times on melee range attacks also just doesn’t work because people are constantly moving and end up moving out of range and interrupting it. Defensively it’s fine, it could maybe use an escape move like all the other melee, but chiten is pretty good at that because of the fear of the LB. But overall I’d say SAM is a pretty weak job that crutches on the bad mechanic that is its LB.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aubrey_A

If I could change Ninja's LB, I keep the theme but change the execution. Instead of a tick/heal dependant, all-or-nothing LB, I would see the NIN LB apply a DoT. The DoT itself does damage equal to 50% of the affected jobs HP, but those ticks take place over an exceptionally short period of time (similar to what PvE Pyretic does). Same reuse effect if it scores a kill. Some counterplay against it? Yes, but will it be a secured kill if they can't recupe more than twice? Also yes

---

Not sure that would work, multiple NINs working together could potentially go on a small killing spree by marking and coordinating their LBs, it would make it really cheap. Reacting to something with the dot tick speed of pyretic would be difficult and would make the 60% defense of tanks and melees in FL rather useless. If anything it might be better for NIN LB to not work through guard (nor any LB for that matter). It's not a perfect LB but it's also not the most annoying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akimitsu

Not sure that would work, multiple NINs working together could potentially go on a small killing spree by marking and coordinating their LBs, it would make it really cheap. Reacting to something with the dot tick speed of pyretic would be difficult and would make the 60% defense of tanks and melees in FL rather useless. If anything it might be better for NIN LB to not work through guard (nor any LB for that matter). It's not a perfect LB but it's also not the most annoying.

---

Do you mean I could finally get that BHV DRG that spams Elusive Jump the moment they release Sky Shatter for their 2-5 FL kills?!? In all seriousness, that's a huuuuuge oversight on my part, the chain potential would be monumental across even just 2 Ninjas. To elaborate on the idea, the DoT should only take effect if the target's HP is below 50%. As well, guard should reduce the DoT damage by 90% as it does all other damage, but that's not how DoTs work in XIV.

I'll put it out there. Sam and Nin don't need any nerfs. On the contrary, Sam needs to be buffed slightly. In Crystal level gameplay, they are too easy to kill. Ninja can be debated for buffs slightly. What I notice is most of you complainers do not have high actions per minute and think they're broken cause you can't press buttons fast enough. These buttons are significantly less buttons than previous pvp modes.

What I can tell from your complaining is that you are lacking basic knowledge* of counterplay and pvp etc. Like I said in other threads. I fight people to the death 1 v 3-5 in Crystal rank and tournament CCRC level scrims to test your abilities. It's also about mental awareness and creating opportunities in battle.

Every season I get to Crystal [when subbed] simply by Running you all down. [Straight up killing and not playing for objectives] Honestly not many of you show any promise of potential. Simply just showing me you play the mode many times to achieve the rank you aim to get.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yaba_gabagool

I see this thread is awash in unranked/bronze responses. I guess I'll take this moment to educate you all since you may one day have the desire to play a ranked match, or aspire to reach silver.

Sam LB does your full HP worth in damage. It goes through shield. The only way to counter it when you have the debuff is to have a barrier and be at full health (or stun the sam in the hopes they dont have enough time during their debuff to hit their LB and finish the cast time. Lol good luck on that. unless you're spending time with him targeted, Yoshi and crew's design on targeting and accuracy of their ui/macros is abysmal).

An intelligent sam (not your guys' tier, we're talking silver 4+), can use the mere threat of his/her gauge to sit on a crystal point and fish out the one or two errant area of effects that may come his way and yeetus deletus high value DPS targets. A sam's presence with full LB on the point causes your entire team to shift tactics if he wants. It also gives him impunity to dive high DPS targets and if you go to peel them, gg, you're done.

As for ninja, there's no recuping a ninja's LB. He's waiting on the dip, and if they are competent, they'll even throw one of their TWO stuns on top, so you have to waste a GCD / animation lock just to hit your OGCD recup on stun break which good luck, you'll never beat the lb animation to hit your recup in time even if you're at 49.999999% health. Shout out to the 2004 system that either is batching or replicates the batching of attacks. Real nice design choice there, I must say.

I'm glad I could inform you, good luck in your first ranked games to come.

---

Player Skill issue. Avoid playing PvP with the mentality of waiting for mechanic to resolve like in PvE.

- Sincerely,
Crystal-tier player

i hope the balance team never takes a pvp forum posts suggestions into consideration

This post further proves that 99% of all PvPers doesn’t know how to play most of the time

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joansbones

i hope the balance team never takes a pvp forum posts suggestions into consideration

---

I highly doubt they take any of PvP posts in considerations
(Square, instead of a single attack, give Samurai a horse during its LB, thank you)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Player Skill issue. Avoid playing PvP with the mentality of waiting for mechanic to resolve like in PvE.

- Sincerely,
Crystal-tier player

---

Oh that's strange it says your most played class in CC was Nin followed by Mch.

Gotta do whatever it takes to save your ez pz climb to crystal class eh?

I wouldn't be surprised if someone caught you win trading / using the auto targeting third party cheat software.


Nerds can't even handle there's no way to stop ninja LB especially when coordinated with someone who has a burst via shield (Herp derp, I wonder why Mch and Nin combos rank number 1 in both competitive tier and casual)

And worst part is, that's not even the easiest combo to wombo with, you can literally wipe teams with Whm and Drgs in the 70-80 IQ range just by having them LB on top of a group of people or line aoe and watching the ninja roll their misshapen quasimodo forebrow along their keyboard with buttons 1-9 being their LB.

No this game is horrifically balanced, and bottom barreled players are getting to the top abusing the same tired stuff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yaba_gabagool

Oh that's strange it says your most played class in CC was Nin followed by Mch.

Gotta do whatever it takes to save your ez pz climb to crystal class eh?

I wouldn't be surprised if someone caught you win trading / using the auto targeting third party cheat software.


Nerds can't even handle there's no way to stop ninja LB especially when coordinated with someone who has a burst via shield (Herp derp, I wonder why Mch and Nin combos rank number 1 in both competitive tier and casual)

And worst part is, that's not even the easiest combo to wombo with, you can literally wipe teams with Whm and Drgs in the 70-80 IQ range just by having them LB on top of a group of people or line aoe and watching the ninja roll their misshapen quasimodo forebrow along their keyboard with buttons 1-9 being their LB.

No this game is horrifically balanced, and bottom barreled players are getting to the top abusing the same tired stuff.

---

Can I ask where you pull up these stats? Lmfaoooo, I can't ahahahahah. Now I actually wished I recorded my entire climb on BRD/AST/WHM to Crystal. The seething jealousy to players better than you is insane.

Both those jobs are midtrash compared to drk, drg, ast.
There's also no reason to play them over monk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fourbestintoner

There's also no reason to play them over monk.

---

Monk feels thousand better than Samurai will ever be

Some advice for the OP of this thread and anyone else that feels the same way:

"Sam - LB that instant 100/0 people with little to no counter play."

There are many ways to deal with this, and I will try to cover them giving general examples specific to deal with a SAM's LB.

If you see Chiten on the Samurai's list of buffs (cyan-coloured buff) then change target and don't hit the SAM or even think about using AoE skills in their proximity. If you hit chiten, it'll apply the Kuzushi debuff for 5s. This is what allows SAMs to one-shot you when they LB.

If you are confident then you can attempt to bait the SAM LB with shields. A good example of this is a NIN using Huton (16k shield) with or without bunshin (+8k shield) to get the kuzushi debuff and bait the SAM LB. One reason you might want to do this is to safely diffuse an enemy SAM LB because of how big a threat it can be to AoE-heavy classes that might be on your team in team fights.

There are many other ways to pull this off, and it will require situational awareness and split-second decision making for players that want to bait the LB. You can even bait it as certain ranged jobs if you are confident in your own abilities, such as MCH's Bishop Autoturret (6k shield) and simply LoS'ing the SAM around a corner, far from the enemy team in hopes they LB you and don't have time to break your shield; you can simply Scattergun to knock them back if they dash to you and recuperate. However, there is a caveat to baiting SAM LBs, and that is they have 5s to LB you; which also means they (or their team) have 5s to break your shield to one-shot you if you can't get a second shield up in time. Even as a NIN you can have your 24k shield broken by double single-target Namikiri on you (12k damage x2) so there's always a danger to this. Lastly, just invuln the LB. As a DRK or PLD you can simply activate your LB.

Nin - LB that chain kills people at 50% health or less.

This is very easy to deal with as well. Simply focus down or kill the NIN in the team fight to get them out of the team fight as early as possible. Dead NIN means no NIN LB in the fight. They have no pressure if they are killed or forced out of a fight. If a NIN does LB a teammate remember that they get animation-locked themselves. You can kill them as a team during that animation lock since they cannot recup/guard; a CC that prevents them from recuping or going into guard (e.g. Stun/Silence) means that NIN has to purify (and recup depending on how much damage they take) before they can continue the LB chain. Awareness pays dividends so pay attention to enemy LBs.

Stay above 50% health. If you are low on mana and don't have enough to stay above 50% health, simply leave the fight, elixir, and return. If a NIN LB does go off around you then Guard. They have 5s to continue their chain and Guard lasts 5s.

That's my general tips for you or anyone else struggling to play against SAM and NIN. Hope it helps.

well don't hold your breath waiting i don't think the company likes being told what to do.