So I randomly thought of this last night and it struck me as an interesting concept so I thought I'd chuck it down here:
- First off, we apply a flat DPS reduction of healers via the MND to potency calculation by 30%.
- Then we add the Cleric Stance toggle back in, instead of flipping MND/INT as before, it simply increases damage done by 30%.
- Instead of nerfing your healing potency into the floor, it causes your next healing GCD to 'fizzle' (Yes I am digging up an Everquest term for this). Fizzling a heal this way removes the Cleric Stance effect in the process and starts a 10 second cooldown before you can recast Cleric Stance.
- Fizzling a spell causes a 1 second GCD reset and causes the spell to consume no resources or gauge.
- It's important to note that unless you fizzle, Cleric Stance has no recast time, you can drop it, cast a Medica II or Lily, then recast straight back into Cleric akin to how it used to be.
What's a fizzle you ask? Simply put, it would cause the heal to fail to cast (and in our case, it would also not use any resources, gauge or MP) and would trigger the GCD for a briefer moment than a normal cast akin to DNC steps.
Basically, if you try to use a GCD heal under Cleric, it effectively delays or stutters your next heal by a second but ensures that your following heal comes out at full potency rather than quietly allowing you to continue throwing out ineffective heals. Jarring enough to be noticeable but unlikely to actually make or break anything outside of panic situations in Savage tier content.
It's important to note that this ONLY applies to GCD heals, oGCDs function as normal and are unaffected. This achieves 2 goals:
It encourages actual use of our oGCD kits even if the content doesn't really warrant their use. And secondly, it brings back the old gameplay loop SCHs enjoyed in 2.x-3.x where you would spend as much time with cleric up as possible trying to juggle Eos healing and lustrates to maximise uptime, except this time everyone can play that game now. Oh and said game doesn't cause an embarrassing wipe if you queue for a dungeon whilst half asleep and not paying attention ;)
Why 30% and not 5, 10 or even 90%+ like before? Simple, 90% takes us too far back to the dark old days, even if the punishment still isn't as detrimental overall, 100 damage glares or whatever are just going to make people feel bad and look needlessly silly when that's not the goal or what's needed here.
Why not 5% like Cleric from Stormblood? Because you needed a parser to feel it's improvement. It was immensely unsatisfying and unworthwhile, at the time you'd see far bigger improvements from optimising movement and weave windows than paying any heed to SB Cleric.
So why 30%? Simple, it's a big enough number to actually notice and feel without using a parser and is impactful enough to get the monkeh brain neurons firing but it's not big enough to actually make or break much of anything outside of perhaps newer ultimates and specific end of tier Savage fights (aka the likes of E8S where healers were expected to deal pretty significant damage thanks to far and few between healing checks).
If we assume a dungeon run (Where healer DPS is typically at it's strongest) and everyone is playing to a similarly high standard, 30% of your healers DPS equates to 5-10% of the groups overall damage in an absolute worst case. At the other end of the spectrum, if we look at a random Extreme where the entire group except for 1 of the tanks landed on a grey log, that comes out to ~3-4% of the raids damage if we assume both healers would completely ignore this new Cleric and never even put it on their bars. Now note that this group still killed Endsinger in 9:37, enrage happens at 10:50 if I'm not mistaken. A full grey run where every single DPS was in single digits for percentile and they still cleared comfortably with over a minute to spare. So please don't come here with the seemingly inevitable 'Aaaahmagerd it'll stop people from getting clears' because that's just not true.
Another thing to note is that this approach has plenty of avenues to expand on the concept. One that springs to mind: Using Misery under Cleric Stance adds an additional 20% damage dealt for your next 2 casts. Kit interactions, yay :D
If it was implemented as part of a level cap raise, it wouldn't even need to feel like a flat out nerf to healer damage. How many people noticed that their fairy heals actually got significantly weaker as you levelled between expansions back in the day? SE can just quietly turn the dial down as healers level towards the next cap and most would be none the wiser.
So what do you think? Personally as someone who was strongly against Cleric as a concept but isn't afraid to admit that it did at least add a level of excitement and pressure to healer gameplay that's arguably been sorely missing in more mainstream content, I'm quite happy with it. It's simple, it has a ton of room for expansion. It's not as make or break as old Cleric Stance was, but it's impactful enough that you'd be able to feel the difference without needing to parse.
Some good suggestions and additions that are worth keeping in mind:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
The grand return of Cleric Stance, with a twist
Printable View
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11-24-2023, 06:20 PMSebazyThe grand return of Cleric Stance, with a twist
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11-24-2023, 10:45 PMAravell
Honestly, a less punishing Cleric Stance sounds pretty nice and I don't really see anything outright terrible about the proposal. Although, 2 things I see that are a concern:
1) Does the spell fizzle as soon as you press it or at the end of the cast? If it fizzles as soon as you press the button, it could be annoying if you misclick a GCD heal and queue it up which causes a fizzle.
2) Wouldn't it be better to have a 1s recast native to Cleric Stance? One of the biggest problems Cleric Stance had back then was that you could immediately toggle it back on after turning it off, a 1s recast wouldn't hurt at all since you'd only turn it off to cast a GCD heal and every GCD heal already has a recast of 2.5s base (Eukrasia + Prognosis/Diagnosis is 1+1.5). -
11-25-2023, 12:37 AMRenathras
As I said, oof, no.
Cleric Stance was a bad ability and was removed from the game for good reason. It caused gaps between top and bottom healers that made balancing encounters for "the average party" nearly impossible, it discouraged damage dealing (this would, too, due to the "fizzle" mechanic), from new healers, and it led to big fights in the community about whether healers should be in cleric more, less, deal damage more, heal more, etc. This would do that same thing, and the community is more prone to fighting about it now.
We aren't ever getting Cleric Stance back as a toggle, and I suspect you recognize that as well.
Aravell is right that if Cleric Stance were to return, it would get the Tank Stance treatment of a 3 sec CD to prevent accidentally activating/deactivating it. But I don't expect to ever see it again. IF it does come back, it won't be as a role action but would be limited to a single Job like SCH or SGE which would probably be designed around it. For example, if SGE's Eukrasia wasn't a single ability but a stance that turned its heals into attacks (and got Kardia ticks), and deactivating it defaulted you to your base heals. In such a case, it wouldn't have attack and heal GCDs at the same time. It would have Cure 1, Adlo, Regen, Medica 1, and Succor (for simplicity of names), and when turning on "Eukrasia Stance", these would be replaced with Dosis, Bigger Dosis (maybe a dualcast mechanic like RDM), DoT, AOE attack, AOE DoT attack. While in this stance you can oGCD heal and you can hot-swap Kardia (no CD or a 1 sec CD on use to allow for swapping), and probably have some kind of AOE Kardia on a 1 or 2 min CD for party healing. Slap on an Energy Drain (Toxicon?) to compete with the AG heals and you've got a "damage dealer focused healer" Job. If damage is too great, you drop out of Eukrasia to do your GCD healing to get the situation back under control before going back into Eurkasia Stance.
If we ever see a Cleric Stance as a toggle type ability again, something like that is probably how it would work. Some continuous passive healing while it's active, oGCD healing options while it's active, but which compete with an extra damage oGCD to force an opportunity cost on use. -
11-25-2023, 02:36 AMIDontPetLalas
Funny, a "cleric stance" is implemented in other games and the sky doesn't fall.
Here's one such example https://aion.fandom.com/wiki/Sacrificial_Power_I.
So, how is this skill used? It's a toggle, it activates instantly, if you want extra DPS, activate the skill- however your heals (all of them) get decreased by a certain potency (if I recall, it was around 20%, maybe slightly more). You want to go back to full healing? Hit the toggle, you're instantly back to full healing power - but there's 10 seconds in between hitting the button.
Did anyone ever die due to "oops, I hit the button" ? probably- but somehow, this skill lasted for at least 10 years- so how much of a problem do you think it was? -
11-25-2023, 03:10 AMSebazyIt would basically just hit a 1 second GCD and fail to cast your spell. Imagine fat fingering a dance step instead of Cure 2 and you're there. I did think that another option would be that a fizzle could simply add 1 second to your cast time rather than straight out canceling the cast but I didn't want to overcomplicate the suggestion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
Yeah, a 1 second recast would absolutely make sense as it entirely puts the double cleric stance thing to bed. I just wanted to keep the original suggestion as simple and easy to digest as possible for reasons that will likely come clear soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
Are you sure about your assumptions there? I'll give you a chance to actually look at the math. You might want to take it before you make yourself look a little silly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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11-25-2023, 03:44 AMfulminatingAre you saying that the removal of cleric is what directly caused tighter enrages? After all a narrower gap between the better and worse healers allows ‘fair’ enrages to be tuned significantly more precisely than when the healer contribution is much more variable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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11-25-2023, 03:48 AMEastwall
Just make dungeons in a way that l need to heal all the time... I want to play healer, not a green dps.
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11-25-2023, 03:57 AMSebazyIt's a nice idea, but have you thought through what that actually entails?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastwall
A run of the mill dungeon that requires us to actually make use of our kit and doesn't give us time to DPS would be pretty bonkers without a complete across the board rework of our entire healing kits.
Again, don't get me wrong, I'd be all for it. I genuinely would love a slice of that. But every time I see this suggestion, I genuinely don't think that people appreciate just how much incoming damage it would take to actually force us to heal all the time *AND* how much of a knife edge it would be actually sustaining our MP through that. -
11-25-2023, 04:03 AMForsakenRoe
Rather than having the healing spell fizzle, wouldn't it be better to let it go through at 100% effectiveness, but cause Cleric Stance itself to fizzle and lock out for 10sec (or however long for balance)? That way, emergency healing with Cleric up doesn't get neutered at all, but it DOES prevent you from going back into Cleric as fast, costing you some damage. Floor is less affected by misplays (a 20% reduction at certain times may well be a death sentence, what with how spiky damage is at times), Ceiling is able to know when to turn Cleric off manually to prevent 'fizzles' and maintain optimal uptime of the buff
I just want anyone who asks this to go and do either P10S, and do Harrowing Hell there, or do P1 of TEA. Imagine that healing amount required, but that is now what EX roulette looks like too. That, is 'healing required in a way that means I need to heal all the time' and I don't expect it'd go over well with... well, most players, really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
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11-25-2023, 04:46 AMRenathrasNever played Aion. What kind of game is it? Is that ability forced on all healing classes or just one?Quote:
Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas
You're going to have to be more specific than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
/sighQuote:
Originally Posted by fulminating
What are you on about this time?
Enrages were tuned to where healer DPS was included before the change, they were just badly tuned towards the higher end of the spectrum, making it impossible to clear without it.
100% agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastwall
I know you like dropping this as a trump card, but have you EVER considered that people HAVE thought about it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Weaker heals (especially AOEs and oGCDs), more frequent but smaller damage. It's not hard. You're smart enough to know that.
As above: Your contention here is...what? That healer ability potencies are set in stone and cannot be altered? Because the only way this argument carries weight is if healer potencies cannot be changed at any time.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
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11-25-2023, 04:50 AMHigashikata
Yeah sure. Bring it back and give us back meaningful DPS buttons
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11-25-2023, 05:02 AMfulminatingBeing numerate and mildly competent is a burden that I really wish others shared. Please stop derailing threads with misconstrued walls of text that have only a passing relationship with reality. Please at least have a broad understanding of how the game is - clear a tier, do an ultimate, do mine runs idgaf just try and learn or at least understand the broad strokes. I do not think you have ever fully thought through what you're asking, please consider the knock-on effects of say requiring high heal uptime dungeons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Thank you. -
11-25-2023, 05:22 AMForsakenRoePeople say that 'we should increase healing needed, I want to heal'. I am saying that, in order to actually pressure our healing kits to the point people are asking for (eg, 80% of the GCDs we use in a given fight are healing GCDs), a couple of examples that come to mind are those two. One's a whole phase of an ultimate (and it gets to around 50% GCD heal iirc, I can't check my old runs because I don't have the 'membership' for funny number site so I can't check the archived logs), and the other is a 20ish second phase of a Savage fight. What I can say about them though, is that we'd need MASSIVE adjustments to our kit for this to have any hope of working. The MP costs atm are too high. The accessibility of AOE throughput is too high. The power of OGCDs is too high. This is a lot of adjustments, which have to be tested against old content to make sure it's still clearable (because it was designed with current healing power in mind)Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
I'm not saying healer potencies are set in stone. Far from it. I'm just saying that because they are not, the amount of potency we'd have to remove to actually 'burden' the kit, or how much cooldowns would have to be added to things to gatekeep throughput, would be a lot more than people think. I'm all for copypasting Holy Priest and having every AOE heal be either complete garbage potency (Holy Nova without Rhapsody), or gated by, at minimum, a 10s CD. But I expect that being unable to spam Medica might make something like Harrowing Hell or Terminal Relativity or etc enrage sequences, slightly 'completely impossible to clear'. You say 'its not hard' like it's no big deal, but it very much would be a vast undertaking of rebalancing job outputs, doublechecking that old content can remain clearable, tuning CDs and MP costs. And unlike the suggestion of 'more damage tools' where any bonus potency can just be 'well, happy coincidence, current DPS checks are a microscopic fraction easier (because the bonus potency is that, a bonus, on top of the baseline the game was tuned around already)', 'less healing throughput' could potentially mean 'we can no longer keep up with this mechanic, so we MUST adjust the mechanic'. Because the plan is to make 'healing more required', it removes 'add more healing potency/accessibility' as a solution to an encounter/job-kit mismatch issue like that, because adding more throughput to the healer to keep up with the mechanic, just puts us back to where we are now. Instead, it forces the change to be on the side of the encounter, and that means having to do this check on every previous encounter
Now, a way to do this, and it'd stand a chance of actually working, would be to have damage profiles more like Barb EX. Having a CD on your AOE healing tools might not be as troublesome to keep up with, if the damage coming out is all small hits of 10k in fairly quick succession, rather than massive hits of 90% of your HP at a time. There's 3 main ways to burden healer kits, 'hit hard', 'hit fast' or 'prevent the healer from healing'. Barb used both 2 and 3, and while 2 is fun to deal with, I've heard that too much of option 3 can be annoying, especially in a proposed design that would be emphasising GCD healing, with it's cast times and all. I wouldn't mind it, I think 'know how to heal while keeping mobility' is one of the core skills for a healer to learn, knowing when you have enough time to stand in an orange, get a heal out, and still dodge the AOE. Barb's orange AOEs are a bit too fast for that at times, but there's several times where there's time to GCD heal, even though it looks very unsafe. Like not-Pantokrator
TLDR, let's increase EX roulette healing requirements to that of P1 of TEA, so that we really do use 80% of our GCDs on healing. And at the same time, SE can have a second build of the game, where we don't do that, so they can 'rollback' the change when the complaints of 'we had to vote abandon because the healing was too much to keep up with' come in. Or not, if it turns out I'm wrong then fine, it means a more engaging game for me to play
I'm trying to come up with a way to 'simulate' such an adjustment to the kit on WHM, and I'm not sure it's even possible. It'd be like, do a run of EX roulette, but you have to unbind every healing ability (including Assize), and use only Cure 1 and Rapture (20s CD). And even then, I reckon you'd keep up pretty easily because Cure 1 is still 500p. Our kits are just... so obscenely strong compared to EX roulette and other content of that level, SE's made it basically impossible to be a challenge. Even wall-to-wall pulls are nothing to a semi-competent tank, because of how much self-heal/mit they have nowadays.Quote:
Originally Posted by fulminating
The whole thing would have to be burned down and recreated, 'A Role Reborn' as it were, to fix it in this manner -
11-25-2023, 06:14 AMSebazyThis is such a nothing burger of a statement. What does it even mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Gordias and Midas's DPS checks were a result of bad testing and balancing practices on SE's part. Creator and Deltascape came after SE addressed these issues and it showed in not only in how dialled down DPS requirements were but also in the overall complexity, length and pace. Lots of things changed for healers between HW and SB, yet Deltascape was business as normal following on from Creator. There are fights that have indeed had wild healer DPS requirements, but the main offender came much later in E8S and IMO that was primarily because healers had very little else to do other than DPS in that fight. Remember, this was a fight where the adds were the hardest part of the fight to heal. By far. No I'm not even kidding.
Look at what Eastwall is actually saying, not whatever interpretation you're trying to pull from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
'Make dungeons in a way that I NEED TO HEAL ALL THE TIME'
We've had this before. Remember what AST had going into Gordias? They actually HAD TO HEAL ALL THE TIME. It was hard, actually it was very hard, so much so that healer mains like Fiery Tail and Infernele Infernis failed to ever kill A3S. And let me tell you, they had plenty of talent, coming very close to landing EU first for BCOB for example. If Fiery hadn't have been too stubborn to switch off AST back to WHM I'm absolutely confident they would have at least gotten A3S down.
Again, even if we hand wave away the issues of requiring huge healing uptime, there's also the fact that our resource system just doesn't accommodate for this volume of GCD healing. Look at PoVs of people progging E12S, the amount of GCD heals it expected out of the gates and how wild the MP usage was in that fight before you got things mapped out and gear levels went up.
It's a genuine shame that there's no way to go back and experience AST as a snapshot of that period in time. It's exactly what many ask for here and man, it was awful all told. -
11-25-2023, 06:26 AMSebazyStolen and added to the OP along with a few of Ara's suggestions.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
I like it ty! -
11-25-2023, 08:47 AMAravellThat kind of healing requirement doesn't even go over well with most raiders tbh. Look at Hand of Pain skip for TEA and tank LB3 Harrowing Hell for P10S, I can guarantee that no one would enjoy that kind of healing requirements all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
Also, I went back to check my TEA clear on the funny site since I recently did one, seems that p1 is only about 23% GCD heal with Hand of Pain skip, probably much higher if you have to heal the Cascade at the end.
EDIT: Seems that J Waves in TEA are about 62% GCD healing uptime, people are asking for more healing required in dungeons than for J Waves, that's very interesting. -
11-25-2023, 08:53 AMRenathras
I'm going to keep posting in that other thread, because people are actually presenting arguments not dogpiling on people with insults and ignoring any responses given as anything but "you don't know what you're talking about" and similar ad hominems. For example, Roe saying our abilities are so ridiculously powerful"...MIGHT be why I said "That healer ability potencies are set in stone and cannot be altered? Because the only way this argument carries weight is if healer potencies cannot be changed at any time." in reply to her and "Weaker heals (especially AOEs and oGCDs), more frequent but smaller damage." in response to Sebazy. If you're just going to ignore what I say, that's not much of a discussion...
In other words, to spell it out for you:
The way to make healing more heal focused would be to have more frequent but smaller damage AND have weaker potency heals. If damage output was what it is now but normalized (for example, instead of a single hit for 75% of the party's health every 30 sec and nothing in between, 3x 30% attacks every 10 seconds) while also cutting GCD heal potencies by 50% and oGCD healing potencies by 50-75% (such that they do either 50% or 25% of what they do now). Tetra would heal in the ballpark of a Cure 1, not a Cure 2, for example. For the oGCD focused healers (that is, the ones designed to heal primarily through oGCDs), you simply cut them all by 50%. For the ones designed to work through GCD healing, the oGCDs would be cut by 25%. Exceptions to this rule would be limited and mainly be big emergency heals (e.g. Benediction).
.
Anyway, there's no point posting to people that can't or refuse to read. You can't harp on someone fro not having experience when you aren't even reading what they're saying.
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Posted something for you there, btw, Sebazy. Empty head or not, it should at least give you something to consider. Unless your head is emptier than you claim mine to me, anyway. -
11-25-2023, 09:34 AMIDontPetLalas
The irony- yet another flamboyant exit to another thread "because people are actually presenting arguments not dogpiling on people with insults and ignoring any responses" yet his last sentence is an insult. Whoah.
Wonder why the posts might get ignored... -
11-25-2023, 09:54 AMForsakenRoeAgain, let's say you do that, and lower content like dungeons or EX trials are fun and engaging, entirely because of the increased healing required.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
How do you clear J-Waves, a mechanic designed around a 300p Medica potency, with a Medica that now heals for 150p (the same as a current Medica 2 tick)? How do you heal Harrowing Hell when you're literally half as potent at healing? It would work in lower content like normal mode where things aren't a threat, but it's got the knock on effect of making harder things 'mathematically impossible' to clear. It's not a case of me refusing to read, it's a case of me having an understanding of what healing is required in higher end content right now, an understanding of basic maths (of what potency values '50% less' actually results in), and an understanding that the former was not designed with the latter in mind. It's all well and good saying 'well the healing would be faster/smaller hits' but HH is like, one hit per second already. The only way to make it 'faster/smaller hits' would be to make it hit every like, 0.5s, which isn't going to play well with your 2.5s GCD, or something like 'keep the hits at the same speed, halve their damage dealt but extend the phase to be 45s long' which, I don't think our MP is going to last that long unless you change the MP costs of things. In which case, we're suggesting a solution (MP adjustements) to the solution (extend the duration of a mechanic to keep total healing required the same) to the solution (change healer potencies so we can't just OGCD everything) to the problem (healing in low end content is trivial and boring to many players)
You say 'for the OGCD heal focused healers, cut OGCD potencies by 50%'. That means for AST, their bubble would be 250p total healing, their CO 350p total, Horoscope 100p (200 if charged), and Star 225p (360p when charged). That sounds awful. The only thing that sounds more awful, in fact, is that you'd have the shield healers be putting up shields of 160p EHP instead of their current 320p, meaning they might well not be able to meet mitigation checks. Of course, you could counteract that by increasing the percentage conversion from heal to shield (eg SGE's is 100p, 320%, it could become 50p, 640% and the shield stays as strong as currently) but again, it's a solution to fix the solution
YWQuote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Is that including Rapture/Solace casts as 'GCD healing uptime', or is it not/a non WHM log being looked at, because if it's a WHM and Rapture's being counted, we kinda have to discount it somewhat, as the pitch posed for 'make healers heal more' seems to be to incentivize more use of Medica or Cure 3. We can already handle a lot with Rapture, and people are complaining, so as long as it remains 'solvable with Rapture' it's not enough healing required. In that sense, Rapture is like the WHM equivalent of OGCD healingQuote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
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11-25-2023, 10:11 AMSebazyI understand what you're saying, but my opinion is that you don't understand the nuances of what you're suggesting here and even your example above isn't really accurate when it comes to mainstream content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
But lets go with your example as a baseline and see where it goes.
First off, I'm working on the assumption that you mean a 30% aoe hit every 10 seconds and not a 3x30% multi hit every 10 seconds (aka 90% of our hp every 10 seconds) as that would be absolute carnage and my inner schadenfreude would pay good money to see that in an alliance queue.
To keep it simple, we'll work with a 1 minute fight with this boss that's aoeing every 10 seconds for 30% of our HP and that our heals are cut in half. I'll be the squishiest person in the team on WHM and I'll have 60k HP for this, I'll be using numbers from my current gear to tally up with the HP and accordingly, our 10 second AoE is a 20k hit. The numbers are a little rounded, mitigation and crit are basically ignored and we are assuming a 2.5 second GCD because I can't be bothered with that. Sounds fair? That gives us 120k to heal over two minutes.
4 casts of Medica II @ 3k = 12k
20 Medica II ticks @ 2k = 40k - 52k
8 Asylum ticks @ 1.5k = 12k - 64k
3 Raptures @ 5k = 15k - 80k
1 Assize @ 5k = 5k - 85k
7 Medicas @ 5k = 35k - 120k and a free sick bag
So we're a little over 2 thirds of the way without factoring in Asylums healing buff, crits or spell speed or using any long cooldowns and we've used 7 out of 24 GCDs. If I go full filthy and make up the balance with Medica 1, that's 14 GCDs used, A little under 2 thirds.
Keep in mind this is against a boss that is endlessly tanning my scrub 60k hp backside with 20k AoEs every 10 seconds. Rather handily, that's actually aligns rather nicely with the sort of damage we take during P10 Normal's Harrowing hell sequence at it's peak, but keep in mind that this is non stop round the clock for the full duration of the fight.
Again, if we hand wave away resource issues and assume that the YoshiP has that covered as well, that's still a lot of healing and whilst again, I'd absolutely love to see it happen. My gut instinct is that I think mainstreamies will find that that sort of ceaseless healing pressure gets tiring FAST. It's absolutely fine in bursts and those bursts could certainly stand to come more frequently than they do now regardless of whatever solution SE eventually settle on, but 24/7? I dunno man, like I see you hitting 90-95% active rates in content and as such, I suspect you'd deal with it just fine, but when I see healers with some ~70% active rate asking for this, I can't help but be concerned.
*Edit* Man, I didn't even think about J Waves, that lands at right about the same sort of ballpark, probably even less than the above once you drop crit and start adding things like healing buffs, spell speed and mitigation back in to my over simplified cig packet math.
Spicy! -
11-25-2023, 10:12 AMAravellSCH/AST comp, our combined total GCDs spent healing on J Waves is about 65%. So 80% would have to be a lot more intense than J Waves are, is that really a good idea?Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
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11-25-2023, 12:01 PMRenathrasI actually do appreciate this (and a second near-complement? In one day?? It's like all my namedays have come at once!), but there's a second part to that you're missing: Boss autos/crits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
And that, good god, oGCDs would have to be toned down more. Well, the long lasting/HoT ones, anyway. Though I think that's more a HoT issue in general. They were designed to be MP efficient when you could afford to take smaller heals over longer periods vs the higher MP cost of heals that you needed right now. But that doesn't translate well to oGCDs where the cost is no different than another oGCD with an equal CD. Physis has the same opportunity cost as Tetragrammaton, and yet is considerably more powerful overall. Also goes into some other balance issues, for example, Asylum being powerful was more constraining when the field effect didn't eclipse the battlefield.
I'm a bit curious, do you believe that healing potencies can be changed but boss damage...cannot?Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
You might suggest that they can, but it would be too much work, and yet we've already had it done in the game in the past. And that's ignoring the Echo effect they granted people that liked to roll old content unsynced before the stat squish to maintain their relative power level to the content.
In other words, encounter design and heal potencies would all be changed, not one while the other remains static.
Anyway, as I say, rather discuss in the other thread where people like IDPL aren't heckling folks. -
11-25-2023, 12:39 PMRein_eon_Osborne
So, CMIIW. Am I understanding the tooltip will look something like this?
Cleric Stance (On)
Does that look right?
Ability | 1s Recast
Enters a Cleric Stance, increasing damage dealt by 30%. If a healing spell is cast while under the effect of Cleric Stance, cast time is increased by 1 second and removes Cleric Stance. Cleric Stance will be unavailable for 10s.
Cleric Stance (Off)
Ability | 1s Recast
Removes Cleric Stance.
Both actions shares a hotkey so no need to be put on 2 diff slots.
Having tasted the pseudo cleric stance in BSF in form of LSS and have been abusing it to my heart's content, I will absolutely love this. :D
Honestly, after getting into some less common but nonetheless existing P10N (Yes, normal) paired with two DF healers who's incapable to heal through the NORMAL Harrowing Hell, I would suggest people to start from there and imagine a 100% uptime of THAT before they even ask for a 'make me heal all the time' lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
We're going lower, aye... /playdead -
11-25-2023, 05:59 PMSebazyIn that regard I actually think things aligned really quite well. Spending 2/3rds of our GCD time healing even when a hot and our short cooldown oGCDs are being factored in is a great result, that gives us enough headroom beyond that to catch back up once you start factoring things like vulnerability stacks, people eating avoidable damage, greed strats etc. This aspect is fine. No issues here in my eyes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Where the problems arise is with relative healing pressure. If we take a 10 second snapshot of Harrowing Hell Normal, we get 5 hits in that time frame, ~5500 damage taken per second to be dealt by with 2 healers in a mechanic that is primarily a 'plant your feet and mash out heals' until Savage introduces movement and positional puzzles into the equation.
With my rough math simulation, we're at 3000 damage taken per second to be dealt with by a single healer and we've not even broached the subject of what happens once you add mechanics and role responsibilities into the mix there. If you stop the damage to allow healers to focus on a mechanic we're right back to square one again. If you don't stop the damage and you have much of anything that forces your healers to run around to resolve something, you've pretty much made Barb (Ultimate).
Lowering our HPS capabilities further relative to our HP pools doesn't really work like I suspect you may think it does as well. The net result there is that you end up being able to 'borrow' time as a resource by banking against much larger and deeper HP pools before compressing healing time into tighter windows by way of healing potency buffs and chunky burst heals like Cure III. It puts us straight back into square 1 unless you also neuter our burst healing potential. Which also opens up it's own can of worms (See healers using low level heals as bread and butter in vanilla WoW).
The net result of all of this is that yes, the math does math, but you end up with round the clock J Waves/Normal Harrowing Hells to get there.
If we go with a fizzle stalling the GCD rather than outright canceling the failed cast, yeah I think those tooltips are spot on. If we go with a fizzle causing the failed heal to not cast necessitating a recast after the GCD rolls round, I guess it would look more like Mudra's tooltip, something like:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne
'If a healing spell is cast whilst under the effect of cleric stance, the spell will fail to cast causing a brief delay' -
11-25-2023, 11:35 PMPost
I'd dig a return of Cleric Stance like this or in some form for at least one healer. I suppose it's no surprise but I've missed it since it was made into a minor DPS cooldown in StB. I don't think it was a mistake; like most their changes they're pretty deliberate. I just don't think they think about how it all feels when they keep removing stuff to streamline every job but don't put in reasons for things to be streamlined.
I think I hear your point, but I really do think they could start making trash harder to heal. I don't think expecting a tank to be able to solo heal themselves through wall to wall pulls is healthy for the fun of dungeons nor for getting new healers comfy with some pressure (keeping veterans entertained aside). Trash doesn't have to be as hard hitting as Savage Criterion, but that's actually the most pressed I've felt healing since like... t1 or Ifrit Ex. I found it fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
Early early on, Dungeon trash could be expected to kill tanks. Brayflox Longstop , Qarn and its 100% max HP final stings, Stone Vigil and the multi-Aevis/Ice Sprite pulls... This continued only until they dialed things back in 2.2 after Amdapor Keep and Pharos Sirius were routinely too hard for random groups of entirely new players, but like, now the jobs are much easier to play and more powerful/group supportive. They could return things to that level and it probably wouldn't be as difficult, but it might make things like Harrowing Hell not blindside so many healers.
Heck, maybe if the occasional fight just began with a heavy healing check (instead of always ending with them), more healers would have opportunities to learn how to deal with high damage in less high-stakes settings. -
11-26-2023, 06:16 AMEastwallI admit the reason l want that is my experience from playing other games. I guess l like more reactive healing. I maintain offensive buff, And when something goes wrong, l heal them. Depending on the fight, l adjust my utility skills to handle them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
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11-26-2023, 06:38 AMRithy255I think a nice compromise Is letting healers just gcd heal actively a lot more (I don't think healing 100% of the time would be fun either for me).Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastwall
I'm certainly one for healers Healing a lot more then current, as that actually makes optimising out DPS more fun for me rather then the 100% DPS uptime we got.
I don't think Cleric stance would fix healer at all, they wouldn't simply use healing gcds... like they already dont, I feel like this would also just punish white mage for no reason compared to other healers. -
11-27-2023, 11:30 AMRongwayMaybe just say the spell gets interrupted, since that's a term we already have. The way you're describing your proposed "fizzle" it sounds like having a Paralysis debuff that only affects healing Spells and is guaranteed to interrupt the first healing spell before dropping off. I would probably also just list the recast as 10s in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebazy
Cleric Stance
Ability Cast:Instant Recast:10s
Increases damage dealt by 30%. Attempting to cast a healing spell will remove the effect of Cleric Stance and the spell will be interrupted. Removing Cleric Stance in this way will trigger its recast timer.
Release Cleric Stance
Ability Cast:Instant Recast:1s
Cancels the effect of Cleric Stance and reduces the recast time by 10s.
Personally I'd rather see the less punishing one where the spell still casts but it removes Cleric Stance and locks you out for 10s but that's how I'd word it if I wanted to describe the fizzle effect. -
03-03-2024, 10:03 AMbenji42
Honestly this sounds cool. I don't even think all the healers need it. I can imagine this ability would be really fun with the lily system! Switching into a mode that makes misery even more powerful would be very fun. Maybe you can even get a momentary healing bonus from not fizzling the stance? I think that would also fit well with the lily system. Plus, you could fizzle your lily on purpose and not loose any MP whilist leaving the stance. I think this would work really well in WHM's slow and methodical playstyle.
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03-12-2024, 10:58 PMSylvainThen what's the point? it's like the boringest mech ever, especially on a whm.Quote:
It's important to note that unless you fizzle, Cleric Stance has no recast time, you can drop it, cast a Medica II or Lily, then recast straight back into Cleric akin to how it used to be.
I remove it before every gcd heal and recast it after? It's just extra work for 0 benefit, it's not dynamic or anything, it just makes healing with gcd more tedious. (And tbh it's not like we need more reason to avoid gcd healing in that game...)
SCH wouldn't care one bit, they do 1 gcd for deploy once in a blue moon during some EX trial and maybe on 1 or 2 mech in late savages. More often in ultimate, still, that'd be an extra weave once every 2min for SCH.
AST are mostly the same altough I feel we neutral sect even more rarely.
SGE... I guess that would kill pneuma somewhat, you either get the full healing or the full damage...
WHM... Ooohh the fun, weaving clerci stance after EVERY SINGLE LILIE
Like... you proposed something that barely affects 3 out of the 4 healers, they probably can entirely ignore it for about 90% of the current content, and make WHM the worst healer to play. -
03-14-2024, 01:37 AMrawker
It would be more interesting if Cleric Stance had 3 stances to rotate: Cleric Stance Neutral/Healing/Damage. There will be perks for going Healing or Damage vs Neutral which what we currently have.. Let's say when in Healing aspect of Cleric Stance, damage dealt -20% while healing done +20%, vice versa.