Samurai Double Dot?

Hi Creative business unit III or Yoshi-P.

I'm writing my idea for samurai overall rotation and dps improvement. As of currently (Patch 6.51) Samurai Higanbana and Kaeshi: Higanbana DoT skill is at a dilemma. Long since expansion 5.x to now Kaeshi: Higanbana is hardly used by Samurai players in any kind of format (Dungeons, normal raids, savage raids and 24 man raids) which is really a disappointment as I can see the potential damage of it but it is not worth to sacrifice an extra Kaeshi: Midare Setsugekka for it. So i'm suggesting if Higanbana and Kaeshi: Higanbana DoT skill can stack, like 2 DoT markers on the boss, one the normal Higanbana and one Kaeshi version on the boss. The idea also opens up a whole new play strategy for Samurai players as it gives player more choice to choose either the DoT path or instant damage path for Iaijutsu. I do need to add that the only situation I can think of when a Samurai right now at patch 6.51 where he/she is forced to use Kaeshi: Higanbana is when she about to die from the next AoE or from a unexpected tank buster (because tank died and didnt pull aggro off in time). Even then, im not sure the weakness debuff causing dps loss from midare setsugekka is more or less than a Kaeshi: Higanbana. Anyways, i have rumbled of a bit. I would love to hear some constructive feedback about this idea because Samurai job is a job that is close to my heart (It's the reason I started playing FFXIV) and I still play/main Samurai from patch 4.31 to now in all content, casual/savage etc.

Thanks for reading :)

not gonna lie I forgot Kaeshi: Higanbana existed entirely. my only issue with hypothetical DoT stacking on SAM is that having two 60s DoTs barely feels any different than just having one, especially when both can essentially be reapplied at the same time.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

not gonna lie I forgot Kaeshi: Higanbana existed entirely. my only issue with hypothetical DoT stacking on SAM is that having two 60s DoTs barely feels any different than just having one, especially when both can essentially be reapplied at the same time.

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Yeah, Kaeshi: Higanbana is very very rarely used. But what if the two hingbana stacks timer is reduced down to 30 secs each? I don't know the works, min/max etc but I just feel that Kaeshi: Higanbana needs a re-work or something because yeah having a skill you never touch is a waste... and that saddens me.

if anything it should be made into an aoe application with a different animation. it's probably never worth it to use even on double target aoe, but maybe if it was a full blown conal aoe it would be worth it to use. then they would kinda have reason to add the aoe yukikaze they showed in endwalker job actions preview.

aoe rotation without most cooldowns and ogcd could be: meikyo > mangetsu > oka > tenka goken > tsubame > yukikaze aoe > higanbana > tsubame higanbana

Then we can get back a conal aoe. It fits better on an aoe dot than it does on tenka goken anyway. Meaningful positioning requirements for the dot application, then pumping damage in the fray with tenka goken.

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Originally Posted by SoloD007

Yeah, Kaeshi: Higanbana is very very rarely used. But what if the two hingbana stacks timer is reduced down to 30 secs each? I don't know the works, min/max etc but I just feel that Kaeshi: Higanbana needs a re-work or something because yeah having a skill you never touch is a waste... and that saddens me.

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Not that it makes it any better.... but anatman, hyoton, and physick on summoner have been useless abilities pretty much the entire time they've existed too. They likely intentionally made kaeshi higanbana not apply a second dot, and just make it an incredibly niche ability (like when you're in fights with two bosses. Hansel & Gretel as well as Xun-Zi & Meng-Zi both in Tower at Paradigm's Breach are examples of this)

Being a niche skill isn't the same as being a skill you never use.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Not that it makes it any better.... but anatman, hyoton, and physick on summoner have been useless abilities pretty much the entire time they've existed too. They likely intentionally made kaeshi higanbana not apply a second dot, and just make it an incredibly niche ability (like when you're in fights with two bosses. Hansel & Gretel as well as Xun-Zi & Meng-Zi both in Tower at Paradigm's Breach are examples of this)

Being a niche skill isn't the same as being a skill you never use.

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If you need to DoT two enemies for some reason you'll do more dps if you use regular Higanbana twice rather than lose a Kaeshi:Setsugekka. If you used Kaeshi:Higanbana on a second target, it would only discount you a single Sen, which you could have built up manually in two hits. Kaeshi:Setsugekka is worth three Sen, which would have taken eight hits to build up.

Kaeshi:Higanbana is a bad niche ability that people should never use.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Not that it makes it any better.... but anatman, hyoton, and physick on summoner have been useless abilities pretty much the entire time they've existed too. They likely intentionally made kaeshi higanbana not apply a second dot, and just make it an incredibly niche ability (like when you're in fights with two bosses. Hansel & Gretel as well as Xun-Zi & Meng-Zi both in Tower at Paradigm's Breach are examples of this)

Being a niche skill isn't the same as being a skill you never use.

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Hmmm... Yeah that makes sense. Double bosses is a niche, I didn't think of that situation. Thanks :)

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Originally Posted by Rongway

If you need to DoT two enemies for some reason you'll do more dps if you use regular Higanbana twice rather than lose a Kaeshi:Setsugekka. If you used Kaeshi:Higanbana on a second target, it would only discount you a single Sen, which you could have built up manually in two hits. Kaeshi:Setsugekka is worth three Sen, which would have taken eight hits to build up.

Kaeshi:Higanbana is a bad niche ability that people should never use.

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Yeah, I also agree with you about this, probably the reason barely anytime or never use Kaeshi: Higanbana... :(

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

if anything it should be made into an aoe application with a different animation. it's probably never worth it to use even on double target aoe, but maybe if it was a full blown conal aoe it would be worth it to use. then they would kinda have reason to add the aoe yukikaze they showed in endwalker job actions preview.

aoe rotation without most cooldowns and ogcd could be: meikyo > mangetsu > oka > tenka goken > tsubame > yukikaze aoe > higanbana > tsubame higanbana

Then we can get back a conal aoe. It fits better on an aoe dot than it does on tenka goken anyway. Meaningful positioning requirements for the dot application, then pumping damage in the fray with tenka goken.

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I do agree with a different animation but I don't really agree with a AOE (not that it's a bad idea) just more hoping for potentially another single target ability...? (Yes, I know I'm being a little bit greedy here with this) Haha :D

I think maybe a dot kenki ability would be interesting since kenki is currently reduced to shinten spam. They could go with adding a whole new button(could make the job too bloated), or just make using higanbana transform the shinten button into a different ability if weaved directly after.

Then we'd have to make sure to have kenki for higanbana and it wouldn't really add busywork since it'd always be applied alongside higanbana. Maybe even make it cost 50 kenki to make kenki management more meaningful. Too easy to cap out on kenki as is and I think that's the part of the job that needs the most attention currently.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

I think maybe a dot kenki ability would be interesting since kenki is currently reduced to shinten spam. They could go with adding a whole new button(could make the job too bloated), or just make using higanbana transform the shinten button into a different ability if weaved directly after.

Then we'd have to make sure to have kenki for higanbana and it wouldn't really add busywork since it'd always be applied alongside higanbana. Maybe even make it cost 50 kenki to make kenki management more meaningful. Too easy to cap out on kenki as is and I think that's the part of the job that needs the most attention currently.

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Hmm... interesting idea... as for kenki, shinten spam for me is not a big deal, it's the perfect oGCD when my GCDs are on CD and to be honest, I don't think I have enough kenki at the moment as I hardly cap kenki since i use it as soon as it reaches to 25 or 30 haha but yeah kaeshi: higanbana is never used haha.

Assuming SE intended for Kaeshi: Higanbana to be used in 2 target situations, then an idea I'd throw in for it would be this. Make Kaeshi: Higanbana deal more initial potency(the initial hit not the DoT). Then when Kaeshi: Higanbana goes off, whichever other target was hit with the normal Higanbana also takes that same amount of initial damage. Just enough damage that it's worth more than doing normal Higanbana twice and opting for Kaeshi: Setsugekka instead.

Kaeshi: Higanbana exists because three iaijutsu options exist, depending sen count, and Tsubame-gaeshi is intended as a follow-up to iaijutsu. That is all. Just because something exists doesn't mean it needs to be useful. Taking the example of healers, WHM has Cure 1 as Conjurer, and it's never useful as soon as Cure 2 is added to the kit, which again is not as useful as Afflatus Solace/Tetragrammaton as soon as they become available. Some skills exist to only be "traps" for people who don't understand a class, or use it in situations where they don't need to understand the class.

As for why Kaeshi:Higanbana is not useful, it comes down to resource generation opportunity cost for overall potency output. If I need to double dot something, like add phase in UCoB or DSR, it is less of a potency loss to generate (one sticker-use Higanbana)x2, than to waste a Tsubame on a second dot. Can this be fixed to make Kaeshi: Higanbana "useful"? I don't think it can with the current samurai kit and sen generation, unless they absolutely gut Kaeshi: Setsugekka's potency, which in turn affects every other situation where you use that skill instead, or make the sen generation opportunity cost much higher, which I don't see happening without ruining samurai's kit entirely --- like disallowing the same sen to be generated back-to-back, like PvP ninja's ninjutsu skills, which would absolutely destroy sam's PvE kit by at least breaking Meikyo, if not demanding changes kit-wide just to make this one niche case warrant utility.

I also think this is a non-issue, because nothing really prevents you from using Kaeshi: Higanbana, unless you actually care about situations where you have to play at least somewhat optimally, *and* have two targets --- which makes my UCoB example above meaningless since that fight has been cleared with 100+ deaths, so using Kaeshi: Higanbana once in a single phase is a not going to ruin your chances of clearing that fight.

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Originally Posted by AsiTsurugi

Just because something exists doesn't mean it needs to be useful.

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This logic is kind of baffling after how big of a deal it was to lose Kaiten. Cure 1 still gets used whereas Kaeshi: Higanbana never does because it's purportedly always a damage loss, making it fundamentally worthless. There would be no downside to giving it a purpose.

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

This logic is kind of baffling after how big of a deal it was to lose Kaiten. Cure 1 still gets used whereas Kaeshi: Higanbana never does because it's purportedly always a damage loss, making it fundamentally worthless. There would be no downside to giving it a purpose.

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I can see that reading is not your strong point, so may be you want to request someone to read what I wrote in its entirety and recite it back to you?

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Originally Posted by AsiTsurugi

I can see that reading is not your strong point, so may be you want to request someone to read what I wrote in its entirety and recite it back to you?

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Actually spent a good time trying to figure what the point of that post was. That wall of text boiled down to "Here's a use in UCOB except actually no, it's still worthless." Try working on your communication skills if you meant to say something else.

I think why Kaeshi: Higanbana is currently a trap is one of because SE doesn't know it's just better to do normal Higanbana twice, they can't think of their own solution to make it a gain, or they can't really be bothered to think of something to make it a gain. I personally think Kaeshi: Higanbana should be adjusted to be a gain on 2 targets because I also think there's no downside to it. Unless there will never be a scenario where SAMs need to Higanbana 2 different targets in a future Savage/Ultimate content. In that case I don't think they should be bothered to adjust Kaeshi: Higanbana.

Probably the most you're going to get from an instantly repeated DoT via Kaeshi: Higanbana is two-target cleave, much like the best that could be had from Kaeshi: Tenka Goken.

Even then, though, you'd essentially need to have the CD of Tsubame Gaeshi vary with Sen consumed (e.g., 20s per Sen), so that the mere 2 GCDs spared of Kaeshi: Higan and 4-5 GCDs of Kaeshi: Tenka could actually compete, if only situationally.

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

This logic is kind of baffling after how big of a deal it was to lose Kaiten. Cure 1 still gets used whereas Kaeshi: Higanbana never does because it's purportedly always a damage loss, making it fundamentally worthless. There would be no downside to giving it a purpose.

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But the thing is he's not wrong here. Hyoton has been in the game since the very begining when ninja was added because there needed to be a two-mudra skill where the second mudra was Jin. It was only niche usable in PvP back in the day when being able to bind other players was useful, but in any real content it was always a DPS loss to use Hyoton over Raiton. Similarly now if on monk under perfect balance, I do two opo opo form ability and one coerl ability, I get celestial revolution as my blitz, which is always a DPS loss over having used rising phoenix or elixir field.

Square had to program something in to occur for both these scenarios, but not every outcome needs to be always usable or a good skill to use. Some are just there because they have to be in order not to soft lock a job if those skills are attempted to be used. Tsubame Geshi had to have an outcome programmed for every possible use case if the trigger for making it available was first using iajutsu, and doesn't mean that programmed outcome needs to always be something good or viable, but just that something had to sit in the code to be executed when that trigger is met.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Square had to program something in to occur for both these scenarios, but not every outcome needs to be always usable or a good skill to use. Some are just there because they have to be in order not to soft lock a job if those skills are attempted to be used. Tsubame Geshi had to have an outcome programmed for every possible use case if the trigger for making it available was first using iajutsu, and doesn't mean that programmed outcome needs to always be something good or viable, but just that something had to sit in the code to be executed when that trigger is met.

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Well, no.

From a completeness standpoint and a simplicity standpoint, yes, that case need to be handled and the most pattern-adherent way to do that is to include Kaeshi:Higanbana even though it's never worth using over Kaeshi:Setsugekka. However, if they wanted to they could remove the trap by simply programming Tsubame Gaeshi to ignore Higanbana so that it only becomes Kaeshi:Setsugekka or Kaeshi:Goken.

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Originally Posted by AsiTsurugi

Kaeshi: Higanbana exists because three iaijutsu options exist, depending sen count, and Tsubame-gaeshi is intended as a follow-up to iaijutsu. That is all. Just because something exists doesn't mean it needs to be useful. Taking the example of healers, WHM has Cure 1 as Conjurer, and it's never useful as soon as Cure 2 is added to the kit, which again is not as useful as Afflatus Solace/Tetragrammaton as soon as they become available. Some skills exist to only be "traps" for people who don't understand a class, or use it in situations where they don't need to understand the class.

As for why Kaeshi:Higanbana is not useful, it comes down to resource generation opportunity cost for overall potency output. If I need to double dot something, like add phase in UCoB or DSR, it is less of a potency loss to generate (one sticker-use Higanbana)x2, than to waste a Tsubame on a second dot. Can this be fixed to make Kaeshi: Higanbana "useful"? I don't think it can with the current samurai kit and sen generation, unless they absolutely gut Kaeshi: Setsugekka's potency, which in turn affects every other situation where you use that skill instead, or make the sen generation opportunity cost much higher, which I don't see happening without ruining samurai's kit entirely --- like disallowing the same sen to be generated back-to-back, like PvP ninja's ninjutsu skills, which would absolutely destroy sam's PvE kit by at least breaking Meikyo, if not demanding changes kit-wide just to make this one niche case warrant utility.

I also think this is a non-issue, because nothing really prevents you from using Kaeshi: Higanbana, unless you actually care about situations where you have to play at least somewhat optimally, *and* have two targets --- which makes my UCoB example above meaningless since that fight has been cleared with 100+ deaths, so using Kaeshi: Higanbana once in a single phase is a not going to ruin your chances of clearing that fight.

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I see your point and I somewhat agree with majority of what you said about sen generate, cost-opportunity. But I just cant get over a skill that is not utilized. Because I can see heaps of potential in Tsubame-gaeshi for Kaeshi: Higanbana. Maybe it's just me, I'm pretty fanatic about samurai haha.

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Originally Posted by nguyentri11

Assuming SE intended for Kaeshi: Higanbana to be used in 2 target situations, then an idea I'd throw in for it would be this. Make Kaeshi: Higanbana deal more initial potency(the initial hit not the DoT). Then when Kaeshi: Higanbana goes off, whichever other target was hit with the normal Higanbana also takes that same amount of initial damage. Just enough damage that it's worth more than doing normal Higanbana twice and opting for Kaeshi: Setsugekka instead.

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Mmmm... Not a bad idea...

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Originally Posted by nguyentri11

I think why Kaeshi: Higanbana is currently a trap is one of because SE doesn't know it's just better to do normal Higanbana twice, they can't think of their own solution to make it a gain, or they can't really be bothered to think of something to make it a gain. I personally think Kaeshi: Higanbana should be adjusted to be a gain on 2 targets because I also think there's no downside to it. Unless there will never be a scenario where SAMs need to Higanbana 2 different targets in a future Savage/Ultimate content. In that case I don't think they should be bothered to adjust Kaeshi: Higanbana.

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Yeah, that makes sense... Someone did mention in this thread before about making Kaeshi: Higanbana an AOE DoT. At the time, i thought it's somewhat a good idea with a slight flaw of not really needed during mob pulls but yeah, I can't of anything better to be honest haha so, I'm in a dilemma too about Kaeshi: Higabana.

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Originally Posted by SoloD007

I can see heaps of potential in Tsubame-gaeshi for Kaeshi: Higanbana. Maybe it's just me, I'm pretty fanatic about samurai haha.

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There isn't any potential in it. It is mathematically a damage loss over Kaeshi:Setsugekka in all cases.

Here is an updated table with current potencies based on this SAM FAQ answer from the Balance regarding this topic:
https://i.imgur.com/UE6ZVBS.png

The green and yellow cells in the Kaeshi:Higanbana case where it looks like it pulls ahead or ties aren't real because the damage from Higanbana is a DoT. The Kaeshi:Setsugekka case is ahead from the moment of Kaeshi:Setsugekka onward. This is even before considering the autocrit on Setsugekka and Kaeshi:Setsugekka.

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Originally Posted by SoloD007

I see your point and I somewhat agree with majority of what you said about sen generate, cost-opportunity. But I just cant get over a skill that is not utilized. Because I can see heaps of potential in Tsubame-gaeshi for Kaeshi: Higanbana. Maybe it's just me, I'm pretty fanatic about samurai haha.

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I can relate to being passionate about samurai; I am the same way about returning Kenki generation via positionals and Kaiten. But as far as Higanbana is concerned, I view it more as an opportunity to optimize in various situations, so Kaeshi: Higanbana's current state never crossed my mind because it's just a skill that exists that will likely not be good or will be too overpowered making Kaeshi: Setsugekka take its current "not used at all" spot, with no real middle ground. That being said, Flufferbut's suggestion about reapplying initial hit's potency on the other target seems intriguiging, but I haven't thought enough about it to have anything meaningful to add.

What if SAM got something like the Iron Jaw on bard, so that any time you inflict any DoT, all DoT timers are extended to a cap of 2x original duration.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

What if SAM got something like the Iron Jaw on bard, so that any time you inflict any DoT, all DoT timers are extended to a cap of 2x original duration.

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...You only have the one DoT, though, so unless you mean something very different from Iron Jaws, that would be wholly useless, except in that you'd then reapply Higan only at 1 minute, 3 minutes, 5 minutes, and 7 minutes.

Again, if you want Kaeshi: Higanbana and Kaeshi: Tenka Goken to actually see use in serious content, it'll still only be in multi-target situations, but you can make those feasible choices by just...

1. Returning Tenka Goken's increased damage to the first target struck.
   
   In 2-target situations, Tenka Goken currently has a ppgcd of 424.4 across HYHJG+Tg (6 GCDs) and Kaeshi:TG a ppgcd of 449.5 over its 7 GCDs, while Midare Setsugekka has a ppgcd of 440.7 over HYHJGHSKMsg (9 GCDs) and Kaeshi: Midare Setsugekka has a ppgcd of 492.7 over its 10 GCDs. Simply returning Tenka to something like 450 potency for the first target struck and 300 to each thereafter would make Tenka and Kaeshi: Tenka competitive in single-target.
   
   With the further buff below, though, that may overshoot slightly to make focus-targeting via using Midare instead in 2-target situations come at a slight cost (i.e., outright entice use of Tenka in 2-target).
   
   
2. Having Tsubame-Gaeshi's instead hold 6 charges, each regenerated over 20 seconds, and consume charge 1 each per Sen of the Iaijutsu thus repeated (1 charge for Kaeshi: Higan, 2 for Kaeshi: Tenka, 3 for Kaeshi: Midare).
   
   In this way, Kaeshi: Higanbana would only use up 20s of TG's recharge time, at which point the immediacy of a double-DoT atop a potential extra Kaeshi: Midare within the given fight can make it a rather viable choice.
   
   OR
   
   Have Tsubame-Gaeshi refund a portion of its cooldown if used to repeat an Iaijutsu of less than 3 Sen (e.g., for a resultant 30s for Higan, 45s for Tenka).
   
   That would just be a softer variation of the above.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

...You only have the one DoT, though, so unless you mean something very different from Iron Jaws, that would be wholly useless, except in that you'd then reapply Higan only at 1 minute, 3 minutes, 5 minutes, and 7 minutes.

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First post includes the idea of having two dots.
Folks are quick to shoot it down.
I add the idea of having the dots function as per iron jaw as well, so the dots are self extending instead of self replacing, to see if that would be enough to make the idea viable.

... but somehow, I lost you with my suggestion?

Dots are not fun compared to double setsugekka on single target. The whole appealing thing about samurai single target is spamming as much setsugekka as possible. Using a tsubame cooldown on a dot is so much less exciting. even if we got another charge of tsubame, even if we had infinite charges of tsubame lol.

Even in AoE, I'd prefer for them to give us the AoE version of yukikaze that was featured in the endwalker preview, and have it transform the initial cast of higanbana into a conal aoe if used as the next action. Opposed to having tsubame turn higanbana into a conal aoe. It's just far more exciting to use tsubame on big damage abilities like tenka gouken or setsugekka.

The purpose kaeshi higanbana serves is to get us thinking about how abilities are used and what potencies are worth it. It's good as is and changing it would be an over-simplification of the combat system I think. Plenty of other jobs have abilities that are not worth using in any pve situation. Mainly healers, but there are others too. Using hyoton as a ninja is always a potency loss for example.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

First post includes the idea of having two dots.
Folks are quick to shoot it down.
I add the idea of having the dots function as per iron jaw as well, so the dots are self extending instead of self replacing, to see if that would be enough to make the idea viable.

... but somehow, I lost you with my suggestion?

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If applying one applies the other, too, then you still effectively have just one DoT action after your opener, just like Bard, from the 3rd GCD onward, has only one DoT action, Iron Jaws.

The appeal, yes, is lost on me. I also see no reason why you'd want to enforce Kaeshi: Higan even in single-target in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

There isn't any potential in it. It is mathematically a damage loss over Kaeshi:Setsugekka in all cases.

Here is an updated table with current potencies based on this SAM FAQ answer from the Balance regarding this topic:
https://i.imgur.com/UE6ZVBS.png

The green and yellow cells in the Kaeshi:Higanbana case where it looks like it pulls ahead or ties aren't real because the damage from Higanbana is a DoT. The Kaeshi:Setsugekka case is ahead from the moment of Kaeshi:Setsugekka onward. This is even before considering the autocrit on Setsugekka and Kaeshi:Setsugekka.

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Yes, I do agree with you about the math and Kaeshi: Higanbana is always a damage loss hence I have never really touched/used Kaeshi: Higanbana ever since Square-Enix released Tsubame-gaeshi back in 5.x. However, what I meant by potential is that if Kaeshi: Higanbana can be re-worked into another skill... perhaps..? Then that potential may come into play.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Dots are not fun compared to double setsugekka on single target. The whole appealing thing about samurai single target is spamming as much setsugekka as possible. Using a tsubame cooldown on a dot is so much less exciting. even if we got another charge of tsubame, even if we had infinite charges of tsubame lol.

Even in AoE, I'd prefer for them to give us the AoE version of yukikaze that was featured in the endwalker preview, and have it transform the initial cast of higanbana into a conal aoe if used as the next action. Opposed to having tsubame turn higanbana into a conal aoe. It's just far more exciting to use tsubame on big damage abilities like tenka gouken or setsugekka.

The purpose kaeshi higanbana serves is to get us thinking about how abilities are used and what potencies are worth it. It's good as is and changing it would be an over-simplification of the combat system I think. Plenty of other jobs have abilities that are not worth using in any pve situation. Mainly healers, but there are others too. Using hyoton as a ninja is always a potency loss for example.

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The idea of Kaeshi: Higanbana re-worked into a conal AOE is starting to look better and better now (In my own opinion) haha.