You can bring back one thing removed from tanks. What do you bring back?

I’ve been watching old vids of stuff from HW/SB as that’s when I started and I felt like having a pang of nostalgia. Tanks have had a lot removed over the years like positioning enemies a lot, more specialized mitigation kits, less homogenous DPS kits, aggro management, the list goes on really. So what from yesteryear’s tank design would you bring back?

PLD having access to certain Conjury spells like Protect. It helped me out more times than I care to admit.

Damage and defence interplay, or otherwise sacrificing DPS in favour of defence when a situation calls for it. It doesn't necessarily have to be stance dancing, it could also be a part of a kits resources or from branching combos. I dislike that we feel extremely tanky by default, and I'd love to have some level of riskier play where I can sacrifice defence for extra damage or vice versa. It'll also give healers the extra healing they're asking for.

Aggro management would be a second choice, although I wouldn't want to rely on DPS using their enmity tools just to be able to contribute damage myself, enmity management should remain a mostly tank-only thing if it came back. I wouldn't mind however if one or two jobs had enmity utility, like if Monk or Dragoon had an enmity grab for when things go REALLY south and had to tank for a short time while healers pick the actual tanks off the floor. I don't mind managing aggro and so I'd be okay if it returned in some form.

Cover which gives some mitigation on the side.

Revive on paladins, was in 1.0 I hear.

Old Abyssal Drain on Dark Knight.

Flash. For everyone.

I'd bring back Dark Knight as a class... right now we have War(over powered) War2(trash) PLD and GNB for choices..

Different Stances on WAR only, and the connected Switch between inner beast and fell cleave.

I'm seemingly a part of the smaller group who enjoyed the enmity management, but as time goes on...I view the homogenization as a bigger issue.

I wouldn't be nearly as mad if they didn't completely neuter DRK at the same time they ALSO completely gutted the role.

Before anything, I want them to make the tanks actually feel like they have their own playstyle again, starting with DRK. GNB's has only survived because it released in Shadowbringers.

for me
its low blow and its CD resets

Porc skills that only activate when you're getting hit. (Shield Swipe, Low Blow, etc)

The concept of tanks having two stances was wasted potential imo. It can work in the 2 min meta as a way of doubling up effects on the same actions/skills while offering varying options. Since enmity is now an after thought OT stances can be used as a way of altering cds. WAR in 3.0-4.0 was the best example of a concept where the same actions had a different effect, dependent on stance. In 6.0+ an OT stance can be used in the same way. Using WAR and DRK as an example:

Grit: TBN is 25% HP shield
Darkside: TBN is five stacks of 5% HP shields

Defiance: Equilibrium is 1200 potency cure
Deliverance: Equilibrium is 200 potency regen for 18 secs.

These are quick examples of offering options to the jobs instead of just stacking everything on one skill and having paragraphs of text explaining it. The OT stances will have to be on a universal 10 sec recast for all tanks and have no bearing on enmity. This would also slow the power creep of jobs hitting their "max" design similar to what DRG is experiencing right now. It's also another way of giving tanks multiple animations for a single button similar to how WAR used to work with IB and FC.

Exchange between sustain and offense, ideally through different means on each job, with a side of increased damage dealt (especially, to tanks) between predictable bursts and a tuning on those new sustain options sufficient to be of rDPS increase at least sometimes (under high damage intake, via healing GCDs spared, now that healing requirements will have been drastically increased).

Ideally, the latter would come from removing healers Maim and Mend (+30% Healing & Damage Dealt) traits and Tanks' Tank Mastery trait and increasing healers' offensive potencies by the relative value lost atop 1-2 new offensive tools that further increase their offensive ceiling and help level out their in-practice damage given the increased number of GCD heals that'd then be required, while nerfing only what boss actions would newly become OHKOs.

Warrior might regain Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone, for instance, available alongside Fell Cleave and Decimate so that they can choose between (A) current and maximum HP gains and, say, some Wrath (increased AP and healing-from-damage-dealt, based on damage dealt and fading linearly over time) and (B) pure damage and Abandon (increased crit chance and bonus, based on damage dealt and fading linearly over time). Dark Knight might get back Dark Arts, but perhaps instead as a follow-up action instead of reducing responsiveness, allowing it again to buff its offenses or defenses. Etc., etc.

Since those tools are not finite (limited to strict CDs and over-time generation), their parities can be addressed in a much longer (e.g., fight-length) view, allowing for more uniqueness between how each kit pulls off that ability to exchange resources between outputs. If we build around finite tools and anything which actually pressures those tools has to be more and more homogeneously designed, as do the tools themselves, but that added bit of flexibility can do wonders to open up kits to more diversity.

(No, we haven't even made an attempt at at-cost defensive tools being occasional rDPS gains yet. Thus far in XIV, they've always been far too undertuned to be legitimate options, acting instead only as training wheels. I'd want for them to actually be of real use instead.)

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That said, I wouldn't want tank "stances", especially if in anything like their old GCD-consuming form, to be on more than at most 2 of those tanks. I'd be plenty happy with, say, a Wrath-/Defiance-type spender (Inner Beast, Steel Cyclone) providing a distinct benefit from Abandon-/Deliverance-type spenders (Fell Cleave, Decimate), or GNB being able to insert different types of ammo or "Draw" from different among its own (reabsorbing a bit of the emitted energy to gain access to a passive and dynamic action) or enemy attacks, etc.

Dark Passenger with the blind effect.

Unchained


/10chars

Revive on paladins sounds really cool
i'd give warriors stances back (the only tank that benefited from it i think)
drk i'd like dark arts back (i know i might be in the minority)

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

Revive on paladins sounds really cool
i'd give warriors stances back (the only tank that benefited from it i think)
drk i'd like dark arts back (i know i might be in the minority)

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I dont want revive its more fun to save a failed dungeon run with clemency (aslong as ur not like clemecying solo at 50%+), also our dps would be really bad. I rather we get utility in else where

Warrior (and all tanks) should have "stances" imo, I think it would be more fun personally.
DRK having Dark arts or anything unique would be nice too.

Stance dancing baby. Using your brain what it is allow or not.

Dark arts i guess, just not every 5 seconds.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Dark arts i guess, just not every 5 seconds.

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I honestly miss the HW version of dark arts. Was fun having the illusion of choice with the different ability interactions with it.

Reprisal, with the original animation and sound, on DRK, as a counter-attack ability. It doesn't need to provide a mitigation debuff, and it doesn't need a parry proc. Just have the recast reduce based off of incoming party damage.

Gauge/Resource management being a thing. Be that Warrior's crit gain from keeping high gauge and the tools to manipulate it or Dark Knight's interplay between Blood and MP. These have all mostly just been reduced to the "better press Fell Cleave" gauge and the "better press Bloodspiller" gauge.

Aggro management, i don't care what form it takes, just give me something to manage that's not pressing one straightforward defensive and then 1, 2, 3 for the whole fight.

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Originally Posted by DannyDeDitto

Aggro management, i don't care what form it takes, just give me something to manage that's not pressing one straightforward defensive and then 1, 2, 3 for the whole fight.

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Just more to manage outside of "DPS" would be great. So I can agree even if I don't think aggro management will come back

personally I don't want to play boring 1, 2, 3 DPS I want to play Tank the issue is tanks are so boring now and their defensive is so high that you don't even manage defensives (apart from kitchen sink in high end) or spam ur one op defensive usually in casual content, or just press stuff without thinking.

I think current design fails to understand that tanks and healers in general don't want to just be boring dps, they want to actually manage things outside of that.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Just more to manage outside of "DPS" would be great. So I can agree even if I don't think aggro management will come back

personally I don't want to play boring 1, 2, 3 DPS I want to play Tank the issue is tanks are so boring now and their defensive is so high that you don't even manage defensives (apart from kitchen sink in high end) or spam ur one op defensive usually in casual content, or just press stuff without thinking.

I think current design fails to understand that tanks and healers in general don't want to just be boring dps, they want to actually manage things outside of that.

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Basically just a return to older encounter design, with smaller hitboxes and more emphasis on tanks actually positioning the boss correctly for the DPS to do their job effectively.
And if we're feeling generous return some of that older job design as well, when tank defensives weren't as abundant and you might actually want to tank swap simply because the 2nd tank still has all of theirs.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Basically just a return to older encounter design, with smaller hitboxes and more emphasis on tanks actually positioning the boss correctly for the DPS to do their job effectively.
And if we're feeling generous return some of that older job design as well, when tank defensives weren't as abundant and you might actually want to tank swap simply because the 2nd tank still has all of theirs.

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Man I remember back when Deltascape was new and we'd have to tank swap in Exdeath normal because of the TB+debuff stack. I was a new player at the time and with that being my introduction to current normal raid tiers there was no feeling like it for me at the time, it was fun as hell. Now we're lucky if we see 2 or 3 TB's per fight, even less in dungeon bosses. It's kinda sad.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Basically just a return to older encounter design, with smaller hitboxes and more emphasis on tanks actually positioning the boss correctly for the DPS to do their job effectively.
And if we're feeling generous return some of that older job design as well, when tank defensives weren't as abundant and you might actually want to tank swap simply because the 2nd tank still has all of theirs.

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It's not just encounter design that's important I personally feel like it needs to be 50/50 with encounter and job design. I do think yeah first we need to get rid of the massive hit boxes (like really? the thing about melees is your trying to maximise uptime... not when a boss has the hit box of the moon), bosses moving on their own is just really annoying lol.

Tanks need to actually feel like they're using "tank abilities" such as using defensives properly, even make use of target mits more with mechs that could target party members.
They also need unique playstyles personally this can come through DPS rotations (multiple combos instead of OGCD spam), defensives, different values in what a tank brings ect.

I just wish the game would actually take the time to look at tanks (and healers), because yes damage is fun on these jobs. But what makes it fun is you're doing other stuff while also keeping up your damage, right now tanks are very easy damage wise and don't really have to care about defensives that much anymore.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

It's not just encounter design that's important I personally feel like it needs to be 50/50 with encounter and job design. I do think yeah first we need to get rid of the massive hit boxes (like really? the thing about melees is your trying to maximise uptime... not when a boss has the hit box of the moon), bosses moving on their own is just really annoying lol.

Tanks need to actually feel like they're using "tank abilities" such as using defensives properly, even make use of target mits more with mechs that could target party members.
They also need unique playstyles personally this can come through DPS rotations (multiple combos instead of OGCD spam), defensives, different values in what a tank brings ect.

I just wish the game would actually take the time to look at tanks (and healers), because yes damage is fun on these jobs. But what makes it fun is you're doing other stuff while also keeping up your damage, right now tanks are very easy damage wise and don't really have to care about defensives that much anymore.

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Oh if it were up to me I would absolutely put the emphasis back on jobs instead of nothing but mechanics vomit, at least back to the balance between the two that we had in Stormblood.

But let's be realistic, they spent the last two expansions destroying that balance and putting all their eggs into encounter design, I doubt they will stop at this point. Even if it continues this disaster they call gameplay in Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Oh if it were up to me I would absolutely put the emphasis back on jobs instead of nothing but mechanics vomit, at least back to the balance between the two that we had in Stormblood.

But let's be realistic, they spent the last two expansions destroying that balance and putting all their eggs into encounter design, I doubt they will stop at this point. Even if it continues this disaster they call gameplay in Endwalker.

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Shb was at least tolerable Tanks actually felt unique with different strengths, Ideally I'd like a mix of SHB/SB but yeah really I doubt that too unless theirs massive outcry about job design... But theirs just more outcry with nothing to do, Being realistic though I doubt they would even fix encounters hit box sizes and all that.

I mean theirs part of me that holds on hope that SE will finally listen a little bit with job design, at least reverting parts back to SHB would honestly be a big step in the right direction. DPS are likely the most un effected but they still have complaints, support jobs (tanks/healers) are pretty much just a second thought to DPS now, I'm honestly thinking that two new DPS jobs and if they don't pay attention to tank/healer design next expansion can really hurt the game, tanks/healers are already becoming more rare (even I have been playing dps more despite long q times and usually preferring more support based roles), That trend will carry on heavily for this upcoming expasion, unless they rework the number of jobs in duties I can't really see DPS players being happy with the massive increasing queue times, the only alternative is to play the neglected support roles of the game that aren't even fun anymore.

Aggro management. Suddenly tanks and healers would have something to do. The game was built with that in mind and oh boy does it show when you remove that core aspect. Pressing AoE #1 followed by AoE #2 is below basic.

HW's Dark knight.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Aggro management. Suddenly tanks and healers would have something to do. The game was built with that in mind and oh boy does it show when you remove that core aspect. Pressing AoE #1 followed by AoE #2 is below basic.

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I feel like I have to guess that this aggro management that would give us something to do... is not based on the "aggro management" we used to have? Else I can't imagine how it would add anything to our plate. Back then, we did our combos and got aggro, and eventually flipped a switch off, and then continued as we are now.

If it were something new and not so automatic, nor as simple as just maintaining a lead on an unalterable and non-decaying (Enmity) table, then I'd be all for it. I just don't think I'd notice the difference of what we had being returned beyond some added button bloat without any gameplay interest.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

Aggro management. Suddenly tanks and healers would have something to do. The game was built with that in mind and oh boy does it show when you remove that core aspect. Pressing AoE #1 followed by AoE #2 is below basic.

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aggro management is only useful in the context of multiple targets. In single target or striking dummy bosses it loses all relevance, especially when boss autos no longer cleave despite their animation saying otherwise. Even then adds that just spawn to be burned down is redundant unless they interact with mechanics.

Using P10S as an example, if there was an adds spawn prior to HH where you had to line up adds so when they die they create a barrier between you and the boss reducing damage, but also had to space them out so that when they do get hit by HH their aoe will not hit you or the other add placements and adds all hit like trucks. If you want an actual example in game A9S is literally what I just described.

Regardless aggro in this game is sadly relegated to auto since tank enmity is so high and the risk vs reward aspect of the game has been stripped entirely so in the current game, tank aggro is just a partner swap at best and a "forgot tank stance on" at worst.

Stance dancing.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

Regardless aggro in this game is sadly relegated to auto since tank enmity is so high and the risk vs reward aspect of the game has been stripped entirely so in the current game, tank aggro is just a partner swap at best and a "forgot tank stance on" at worst.

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Honestly, the "forgot tank stance at worst" argument is my main reason for wanting aggro management back, even if it was just for damage dealing cooldowns that got a boost in aggro generation, and there kind of needs to be a middle ground for those want to off tank, but REALLY don't want to turn on tank stance/hit Provoke with tank stance off/press a macro for Shirk regardless of main or off tank.

The old Raw Intuition, for PvP. Everything crits if you get hit from other side than front.

I wouldn't really bring anything back (unless it's Old Goring blade), likely will make PLD's rotation wacky but at least i have a different combo lol.

What I'd want is them to revisit ideas and refine them instead of just removing something because its easier to balance.

Ultimatum. AoE Aggro rip was a pretty damn good tool, but was heavily underutilized. I'd like to see that back in our Tank toolkit for dungeon situations.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Ultimatum. AoE Aggro rip was a pretty damn good tool, but was heavily underutilized. I'd like to see that back in our Tank toolkit for dungeon situations.

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Except, doesn't a single (no CD required) AoE attack have the same "instantly got aggro on everything" effect these days? Why needlessly have an extra Provoke CD, given that?