2 tanks and 4 dps can beat P9?

Tonight I was with a random group doing Pandaemonium 9 (the one with the white soul sucker), and with the boss at 33%, both of our healers were killed and many of our team were at critical HP after the AoE that had just hit. None of our DPS had rezzes. I figured it was a wipe.

But over the next 3 minutes, our remaining members didn't just stay alive, we thrived. No matter how much damage we took, our HP got topped off and was kept topped off — presumably by our PLD, WAR, and DNC. What felt like it should have been a wipe was actually an overwhelming success. And I have mixed feelings about that.

Before this, I already felt like Endwalker content had some manner of "imbalance" between incoming damage and the party's ability to shrug it off; but while I've seen lone surviving tanks defeat dungeon bosses numerous times (with their massive health pools and self-sustain), I had never seen anything quite as drastic as this. I'm so accustomed to DPS needing actual healers to survive in content, but apparently in the latest raid content this isn't the case? It really left me feeling like healers literally haven't been given a role to fill in casual Endwalker content.

I'm curious to hear how other folks feel. Was this a coincidental perfect storm, a rare case where healers were unneeded to an atypical extent? Or is this representative of the status quo?

This is just how EW is

PLD with clemency, WAR with nascent, DNC with curing waltz (and I guess SMN with phoenix’s healing) healers just exist to pretend like they are needed and so the DPS can blame someone else if the raid actually does wipe

All healers are useless in casual content, regen healers are useless in all content it’s a literal joke

Being at "critical HP" means nothing if there's no damage coming up in the next 30-60 seconds. That's an ample time for many non-healer job to heal up through various means, and apparently how plenty of encounters are made.

THIS short 5m vid probably sums up most (about 80%) of what I feel.

Reason 91312312 why tank sustain (War) needs to go down.

Also, here's p12s without healers.
https://youtu.be/etKYa3K70ek

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Reason 91312312 why tank sustain (War) needs to go down.

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Yes. Welcome to the EW healer experience

If you mean the normal mode, yes, I've had the healers die and just kept everyone alive and killed it.

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I'm curious to hear how other folks feel.

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I like the idea that it is possible but not necessarily easy or typical.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

If you mean the normal mode, yes, I've had the healers die and just kept everyone alive and killed it.

I like the idea that it is possible but not necessarily easy or typical.

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It is easy and typical actually, or have you not read OP which said this is a random group ? hmmm ?

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Originally Posted by FenyxRising

It is easy and typical actually, or have you not read OP which said this is a random group ? hmmm ?

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And you think every DF group can pull that off?

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Originally Posted by Saraide

And you think every DF group can pull that off?

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Do you think pressing Clemency is really hard ? hmmm ?

Somedays ago i was doing Dead Ends. My party died and i was the only one alive doing the second boss solo (5% HP) as BLM. I killed it. Ilvl 612.
Unless they buff tank and healers, parties are overrated.







/s

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Originally Posted by FenyxRising

Do you think pressing Clemency is really hard ? hmmm ?

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say hmmm again and i will...commend you


to Zodiark

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Reason 91312312 why tank sustain (War) needs to go down.

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I used to love WAR now I f hate it and they better not make DRK a tank that heal itself too or I quit tanking

More bosses need enrage timers.

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Originally Posted by FenyxRising

Do you think pressing Clemency is really hard ? hmmm ?

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Not what I was asking.

Yes op, this is quite common. Had one last night where me and gnb (I was war) there was a short server wide lag spike near the end of p12n and all but us 3 died to the laser/line/chain to aoe explosion combo. We kept ourselves alive from 22% to 0 even with a vuln stack or two in the gnb case.

Let me just cut/paste something from my summary of healer issues thread

-The weapon's refrain and Epic of Alexander, have all been solo healed. Every other ultimate has been cleared without healers
-Eden's gate 4 (savage) was cleared without a healer when it was current content. https://youtu.be/zdDxjXMMWgU
-The 6.0 launch extreme trials have also been cleared without healers and with increasing frequency.
-Pandaemonium 1 normal was completed SOLO by 3 of the 4 tanks https://youtu.be/fFcZCEny4x4
-Pandaemonium 1 and 2 SAVAGE was completed WITHOUT healers when current https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRbvZJ-EU0U

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Originally Posted by Noox-115

I used to love WAR now I f hate it and they better not make DRK a tank that heal itself too or I quit tanking

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Granted, all bosses have the enrage timer of second boss of euphrosyne, it’s there but it’s completely useless

If you went as a premade party you could just replace the healer spots with more DPS and clear faster. Maybe they should make healer dps more interesting to compensate for them hardly needing to spend time healing unless people are messing up. I know, people have been saying for years. Or make support a bigger part of the healer role like Ast's cards, something fairly active like that for all healers.

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

-The weapon's refrain and Epic of Alexander, have all been solo healed. Every other ultimate has been cleared without healers

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But Dragonsong's Reprise was never cleared with no healers. Also, The Unending Coil was only cleared with 8 tanks AFAIK, never with the traditional no healer party setup. I agree healers are in a really bad spot, but let's not stretch reality to make it seem even more dire. The only ultimate that has been cleared on content with no healers is The Omega Protocol.

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Originally Posted by FenyxRising

It is easy and typical actually, or have you not read OP which said this is a random group ? hmmm ?

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I never said it wasn't easy or typical.

I meant that it it would be good if it were possible, but not easy or typical.

wait until this guy finds out a group beat the new ultimate without healers

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Originally Posted by Aravell

But Dragonsong's Reprise was never cleared with no healers. Also, The Unending Coil was only cleared with 8 tanks AFAIK, never with the traditional no healer party setup. I agree healers are in a really bad spot, but let's not stretch reality to make it seem even more dire. The only ultimate that has been cleared on content with no healers is The Omega Protocol.

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UCoB was cleared without healers too

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

wait until this guy finds out a group beat the new ultimate without healers

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Hopefully someone will bring this up in an interview. Want to see was Yoshidas next excuse is for dissatisfied healers.

"Go play ultimate... without gear!" maybe?

I main a healer, I enjoy healing and this is exactly why I am on an extended break from the game. I have a ton of healing options and really no reason to use them.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Was this a coincidental perfect storm, a rare case where healers were unneeded to an atypical extent? Or is this representative of the status quo?

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Modern fight design is characterized by:

• Tanks that can shrug off autos and busters
• Mechanics that heavily favor avoidable damage (example)

So, in ye olde roulette content, healers exist primarily to cover for the mistakes made by others. Hence, proposals to increase and vary incoming damage (it's simply too low at this point), and proposals to spice up healer DPS (because better parties with higher ilvls simply need less healing, and no one seriously intends to increase incoming damage in roulette content so as to significantly raise the skill floor).

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

Yes op, this is quite common. Had one last night where me and gnb (I was war) there was a short server wide lag spike near the end of p12n and all but us 3 died to the laser/line/chain to aoe explosion combo. We kept ourselves alive from 22% to 0 even with a vuln stack or two in the gnb case.

Let me just cut/paste something from my summary of healer issues thread

-The weapon's refrain and Epic of Alexander, have all been solo healed. Every other ultimate has been cleared without healers
-Eden's gate 4 (savage) was cleared without a healer when it was current content. https://youtu.be/zdDxjXMMWgU
-The 6.0 launch extreme trials have also been cleared without healers and with increasing frequency.
-Pandaemonium 1 normal was completed SOLO by 3 of the 4 tanks https://youtu.be/fFcZCEny4x4
-Pandaemonium 1 and 2 SAVAGE was completed WITHOUT healers when current https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRbvZJ-EU0U

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P12s has been cleared without healers.
https://youtu.be/etKYa3K70ek

Just gonna point out that it's not Dark knight enabling this, because people thought it was SOOOO Overpowered for doing 2% more damage when that was all it had going.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

This is just how EW is

PLD with clemency, WAR with nascent, DNC with curing waltz (and I guess SMN with phoenix’s healing) healers just exist to pretend like they are needed and so the DPS can blame someone else if the raid actually does wipe

All healers are useless in casual content, regen healers are useless in all content it’s a literal joke

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If there was a SMN, the healers would have been picked up off the floor. PLD and WAR(and GNB to an extent) can help keep a party alive for quite a while. Heck, I remember when Copied Factory was new and I was on WAR, my entire alliance was downed during the second boss around the 70% mark, and the people with res were far enough away that they were out of reach for the other alliances. I received one heal from one of the other alliances, and never went down.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

If there was a SMN, the healers would have been picked up off the floor. PLD and WAR(and GNB to an extent) can help keep a party alive for quite a while. Heck, I remember when Copied Factory was new and I was on WAR, my entire alliance was downed during the second boss around the 70% mark, and the people with res were far enough away that they were out of reach for the other alliances. I received one heal from one of the other alliances, and never went down.

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Warrior has been powercrept into the stratosphere thanks to crying streamers and their followers eventhough it was perfectly fine before.
Previously, the community understood that with the utility Pld and War have, they should do less damage.
But they kept buffing them over and over again because people played Dark knight over them because of a 2% dps difference.
Sustain buff after sustain buff to warrior in particular, and then damage buffs. Patch after patch, and now here we are. A certain streamer's favourite line ''Warrior's healing doesn't matter'' turned into healers no longer matter. Because Warrior's healing does matter, his ego just couldn't stand being outdamaged by another tank.

If the balance team does not consider this a problem, i can only imagine what 7.0 will look like lol

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Originally Posted by Aravell

But Dragonsong's Reprise was never cleared with no healers. Also, The Unending Coil was only cleared with 8 tanks AFAIK, never with the traditional no healer party setup. I agree healers are in a really bad spot, but let's not stretch reality to make it seem even more dire. The only ultimate that has been cleared on content with no healers is The Omega Protocol.

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I bet the only reason DSR hasn't been cleared without healers is the Intermission and keeping Haur alive. If it was removed, it likely would have been cleared with no healers. That's not a great reflection on the rest of the fight and the healing requirements.

3/5 ULTIMATES being cleared with no healers, the other two being cleared with 1 healer, and all savage fights being cleared with no healers. 12/14 of the EW high end fights can be cleared with no healers. That is actually pretty dire imo.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

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The crazy thing to me is, while stories like this happen, there are other stories like I was doing a P9N a couple weeks ago and people didn't stack with the healer so both died and the party wiped within about 30 seconds to the damage from the boss.

I DO absolutely think tank and especially DPS healing and mitigation are way too powerful, and I think that healing by non-healers should always require expending GCDs (Clemency and Vercure are trade-offs in damage, Curing Waltz and Everlasting Flight are not, nor are any of the mitigations) to really make using them a strategic trade-off, not free healing/mitigation. The only roles that should have oGCD mitigations should probably be tanks and possibly healers, and the only ones with oGCD healing should be healers (tank self-mitigation being oGCDs make sense as well as tank self-healing being baked into their basic rotations).

But despite all of that, I've seen plenty of parties wipe when the healers go down. So I'm not sure this is the issue that people say it is. And insomuch as it is, it's more that DPS and tanks have too much healing in their kits.

It'd be like if when the DPSers died, the healer Jobs could output more damage than BLM or SAMs and clear Enrages just fine without the DPSers alive.

I think it's a two part problem:

1) Encounter design needs to do more consistent damage. It doesn't have to be big spikes, especially in casual content, it just needs to be consistent enough to require some spamable AOE heals. Tanks don't have AOE heals they can use repeatedly (stuff like Shake is on longish CDs), and likewise for the DPSers. Clemency and Vercure are single target effects only.

2) Healing on non-healer role Jobs needs to be rare, more clutch not sustainable, and actually cost GCDs to use, not be a fire and forget oGCD weave for free or freebie in the rotation.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

The crazy thing to me is, while stories like this happen, there are other stories like I was doing a P9N a couple weeks ago and people didn't stack with the healer so both died and the party wiped within about 30 seconds to the damage from the boss.

I DO absolutely think tank and especially DPS healing and mitigation are way too powerful, and I think that healing by non-healers should always require expending GCDs (Clemency and Vercure are trade-offs in damage, Curing Waltz and Everlasting Flight are not, nor are any of the mitigations) to really make using them a strategic trade-off, not free healing/mitigation. The only roles that should have oGCD mitigations should probably be tanks and possibly healers, and the only ones with oGCD healing should be healers (tank self-mitigation being oGCDs make sense as well as tank self-healing being baked into their basic rotations).

But despite all of that, I've seen plenty of parties wipe when the healers go down. So I'm not sure this is the issue that people say it is. And insomuch as it is, it's more that DPS and tanks have too much healing in their kits.

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Not just DPS and tanks have too much healing, UCOB is a clear and perfect example that other jobs did not have that much healing individually and can cost DPS to heal, but it was still cleared without healers. It's clear that healers don't offer anything other than healing and the design choice to make things easier for the players who wipe when everyone else has no issue reinforce this. Healers simply don't offer anything to the table that the other two roles cannot provide in more various amounts, and that's the biggest difference between the other 2 roles. Healers are just too narrowly focused in relation to the game's design.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Reason 91312312 why tank sustain (War) needs to go down.

Also, here's p12s without healers.
https://youtu.be/etKYa3K70ek

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Yeah, let's nerf tanks because bosses aren't doing enough damage. This makes sense. It isn't rocket science. All they have to do is increase endgame enemy damage to the point tank and DPS are incapable of healing themselves enough to keep up with it.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Yeah, let's nerf tanks because bosses aren't doing enough damage. This makes sense. It isn't rocket science. All they have to do is increase endgame enemy damage to the point tank and DPS are incapable of healing themselves enough to keep up with it.

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I'd pay premium for SE to make an entire raid series where both healers are needed in endgame content, tank and dps healing is still welcomed on top of that, ilvl can't cheese all the healing (it still has some teeth after gear), SGE and SCH can't handle it because its not entirely mitigation based but also healing based with heal checks that aren't just "heal to full to prevent doom", have debuffs you want to clense and not just HoT over, isn't just a Dance Dance Revolution fight - it has tonze more unavoidable raid wide damage, off tank responsibilites, AND they don't nerf it what so ever.

They don't have the spine.

Edit: I'll even add that they keep doing so for all future raid series and don't back track next expansion.

This is what happens when people know how to play there job

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Originally Posted by Kewitt

This is what happens when people know how to play there job

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More like what happens when square makes a role so “accessible” they basically just cut it use out of the game entirely

Personally I view the issue being that tank sustain is completely out of control on PLD and especially WAR.

If they keep down this direction I could easily see a future where 0-1 healer becomes standard for raiding.
Right now it looks difficult to optimize, but all we need is even further heal creep on certain jobs and it'll likely become easier. People already thought WAR's healing was rediculous on EW's release, and then they decided Shake it off needed to be even stronger, so you know SE isn't against it.

Self healing for dps and tanks needs to be nerfed or boss dmg increased. Of course neither of these will happen..

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

More bosses need enrage timers.

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So XIV obsesses more over DPS to the detriment of literally everything else? lol Nah.

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Originally Posted by Kewitt

This is what happens when people know how to play there job

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Where?

Bad take by the way. You basically say: hey it's ok if people playing to progress difficult content will only play the 1-3 best jobs. Do you want the game to become like WoW?

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Where?

Bad take by the way. You basically say: hey it's ok if people playing to progress difficult content will only play the 1-3 best jobs. Do you want the game to become like WoW?

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How in the hell did you make that connection

Did you just start from “wow bad” and try to work backwards from there

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

How in the hell did you make that connection

Did you just start from “wow bad” and try to work backwards from there

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So i am wrong with this? Ok. Then i guess if players play all jobs well it will naturally evolve to only tank runs for ultimates. Got it

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Originally Posted by BRVV

So i am wrong with this? Ok. Then i guess if players play all jobs well it will naturally evolve to only tank runs for ultimates. Got it

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Again what are you even saying