I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

I believe currently this is the most pressing issue in the entire game that needs to be addressed above everything else. That is my feedback.

Your sole purpose is to make sure duty finder queue pops so the dps and tanks can enjoy their shortened queues...

... and you will like it. :)

/s

I’d rather have more interesting spells for healing and support on healers’ toolkit than complex dps rotations.

That is my feedback

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I believe currently this is the most pressing issue in the entire game that needs to be addressed above everything else. That is my feedback.

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put multiple copies of your attack abilities on 6 different buttons and create your own rotation.
for example 1-2-3 + 1-4-5 + 1-2-6 + 4-5-6
or 1-2-3 + 2-3-4 + 3-4-5 + 4-5-6

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

I’d rather have more interesting spells for healing and support on healers’ toolkit than complex dps rotations.

That is my feedback

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Theirs only so much "healing" spells you can add really thats the issue.
Fights are also just not designed for healers to heal most of the time, so they would also need to change that, I think having Proc based attacks on healer would add more to look out for.

Don't get me wrong I want healers and tanks to actually have more impact and importance in their support tools even in casual content, instead of making them plainly green/blue DPS only. But that will likely not change unless fight design changes.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

I’d rather have more interesting spells for healing and support on healers’ toolkit than complex dps rotations.

That is my feedback

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I wish the game could accommodate this. Best case scenario, you'll use them the same way you'd use any other ability in it's place. Worst case scenario, you'll hate it being unique

We’re certainly at the point now where tacking more healing stuff on just seems like a waste of time unless SE actually deliver on increasing healing pressure quite significantly (case in point, a thread in the healer forum where I showed an example of a 24 boss doing literally 2 raidwides, one on pull across a near 5 minute fight).

Support, buffs and augments are an absolutely wasted opportunity though, the original cinematic intro guys did a better job of this than SE themselves have ever managed for healers. Maybe Yoshida should get them back on the payroll as they certainly seem to have more ideas than the job design team. Jobs like AST should be all in on GCD buffs IMO.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

I’d rather have more interesting spells for healing and support on healers’ toolkit than complex dps rotations.

That is my feedback

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Wrong game, in this one healers dps and you will accept it. So more dps interactions pls, pvp sage is an example of what it should be.

Even if they bump up the volume of healing they can only do it in two ways

1) more planned healing- if they do it this way it will further amplify the stupid dichotomy and just further increase how much more useful shield healers are over regen healers (it’s funny their experiment to create main and off healers that backfired years ago basically exists in the current game, shield healers are the main healers, regen healers are just gimped casters with a few healing oGCD’s)

2) random damage- this is extremely limited by the system due to the slow GCD, it worked kinda well in coils when the damage the boss did to the tanks was generally un-telegraphed and varied throughout the fight but in 14’s system would be hard to replicate on the party itself unless the regen healers were given a very short permanent GCD to counter the slow GCD for random damage

Either way neither of these is going to happen because square is far too stuck in their ways with raid design (seriously can anyone name a savage fight that has stepped even a toe out of line since creator) so the best we can hope for is maybe some more DPS options

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I believe currently this is the most pressing issue in the entire game that needs to be addressed above everything else. That is my feedback.

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You can just play a DPS job then.

Maybe try warrior?

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

You can just play a DPS job then.

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You mean like the healers in the game? Cause all they do is push their dps button.

try harder

lol. I thought the thread's title was familiar. Previously.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

I’d rather have more interesting spells for healing and support on healers’ toolkit than complex dps rotations.

That is my feedback

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I fully agree, no more complex DPS rotations. Healers are not DPS mains.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I fully agree, no more complex DPS rotations. Healers are not DPS mains.

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what complex DPS rotations are you talking about- proposed ones (which no one has proposed that I've seen anywhere) or existing ones- which no healer has- you've honestly lost me here.

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

I’d rather have more interesting spells for healing and support on healers’ toolkit than complex dps rotations.

That is my feedback

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There have already been some comments regarding this, I would just add that I find our healing toolkit to be bloated for our current game design. If DPS options (note- again there is this concern about "complex" DPS rotations- which is coming out of nowhere) were added AND some changes were added to encounters that required us to use our support and healing in more interesting ways and not just dodge mechanics, that would definitely get my vote.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

You mean like the healers in the game? Cause all they do is push their dps button.

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Indeed, most of the time is spent hitting that button which is why healers have been known to replace the "1" key on their keyboard fairly frequently.

Return Miasma, Miasma II, Shadow Flare, Quickened Aetherflow and Bane to Scholar, Yoshi-P.
That is all.

How come nobody ever asks for actual support gcds and utility spells or debuffs lol, it’s always either ‘pure heal’ or ‘pure damage with ogcd healing’

Maybe they should gut healing ogcds, make gcd healing a required thing again, and make healing actually you know, fun.



Making healers dps is the same mistake they made with tanks. They need to redo the way combat is to make tanks actually do tank things and not just be dps with defense.

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Originally Posted by Connor

How come nobody ever asks for actual support gcds and utility spells or debuffs lol, it’s always either ‘pure heal’ or ‘pure damage with ogcd healing’

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Because we had those and square deleted them because they couldn’t balance them

Nah they'd rather give those support/utilities to DPS and Tanks cause clearly they've judged most healers to be too dimwitted to handle all different sort of buttons that's not "push health bar to right". /s

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I fully agree, no more complex DPS rotations. Healers are not DPS mains.

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I'm genuinely hoping you are just making fun of this sentiment, because my god these two things are not mutually exclusive...

Then healer isn't the role for you,
- playing the wrong role is boring...

I'm bored when i play dps..
but that doesn't mean/make dps jobs = bad.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Because we had those and square deleted them because they couldn’t balance them

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They never even tried to balance them because "WHM is not allowed to have support skills because of reasons"

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However, I am not interested in a real complex dps rotation. Yes I am bored when healing because spamming Glare is well - boring. But a real complex dps rotation would lead to a conflict with the healing part of the healer job. You can see this on BLU or in Bozja. You have to decide between healing or doing a proper burst phase when the raid buffs are comming up. Not an ideal situation.

Getting back a second DoT would probably be enough already to make dpsing less boring. We never had such an unsatisfied healer community back when we had access to Aero 2 and Aero 3.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

Then healer isn't the role for you,
- playing the wrong role is boring...

I'm bored when i play dps..
but that doesn't mean/make dps jobs = bad.

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at least dps can play their roles. Im bored when I heal, because there is nothing to heal

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

I'm bored when i play dps..
but that doesn't mean/make dps jobs = bad.

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I think the point is that playing a healer is boring on its own merits – that between job design and encounter design and gearing, something is lacking. Which of those should change or be fixed, if any, is the question.

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Originally Posted by Tint

[1]They never even tried to balance them because "WHM is not allowed to have support skills because of reasons"

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[2]However, I am not interested in a real complex dps rotation. Yes I am bored when healing because spamming Glare is well - boring. But a real complex dps rotation would lead to a conflict with the healing part of the healer job. You can see this on BLU or in Bozja. You have to decide between healing or doing a proper burst phase when the raid buffs are comming up. Not an ideal situation.

[3]Getting back a second DoT would probably be enough already to make dpsing less boring. We never had such an unsatisfied healer community back when we had access to Aero 2 and Aero 3.

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[1] I mean... do they need support skills / buffs (referring to Chain Strat and AST cards)? I think it is good that we have jobs like WHM and SGE that have solid personal damage and a healthy amount of non-DPS-costing healing to keep the stream of damage going while doing a more than passable job keeping everyone alive.

[2] A dps rotation or a BLM/RDM esque spell loop would not be at odds with healing at all, especially when you consider all the systems we now have in place that ensure combos (if available) dont get interrupted [see PLD changes to Holy Spirit/Circle, Clemency, Atonement and ranged attack for every melee/tank] and having a pause due to an actually necessary GCD heal wont ruin your rotation for the next 6 minutes. We have so many oGCD healing and mitigation options that we could ABSOLUTELY do a full dps rotation if desired, I mean look how often we press our filler damage in a fight compared to GCD heals combined.

[3]Eh... "just" Aero III wouldn't cut it. Most people played AST-SCH, the former having a solid card system and the latter having a conditional third dot with high MP cost that was stronger than Ruin II for the purpose of movement/weaving AND SHADOWFLARE did a lot.

Also WHM Aero II being 18s and Aero III being 24s broke the monotony more than any of the 30-45s dot memes we have nowadays. If only they understood how dumb 30s dots are...

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Originally Posted by Connor

How come nobody ever asks for actual support gcds and utility spells or debuffs lol, it’s always either ‘pure heal’ or ‘pure damage with ogcd healing’

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Uh, I’ve been asking for them repeatedly pls =(

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I believe currently this is the most pressing issue in the entire game that needs to be addressed above everything else. That is my feedback.

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You are right in saying it's the most pressing issue, not exclusively because of healers, but because the game design is fundamentally bad.

The only purpose of healing in FFXIV is to press a button every 30 seconds after a raid-wide. The reason there's a raid-wide every 30 seconds or so is because Square Enix unfortunately made healers exist 10 years ago and now have to find something to do with them. Because this is FFXIV, the engine is old, likely runs on punch cards, and SE can't design more interesting raids. This is their way of making it "interesting" in lieu of actual mechanics: every job category has a certain button to press at a fixed interval. That's your engagement. Small company, low revenue, not doing so well, etc.

If Yoshi-P wasn't a tired old man, he might consider making healers a buff/debuff class instead (a la FF13). That way healers can assist in damage and only need to manage contingency healing rather than raid-wides. Using buffs/debuffs means that every healer would do something different, allowing creativity. Naturally, this is Square Enix and Yoshi-P so that will never happen. 10 more years!

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Uh, I’ve been asking for them repeatedly pls =(

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Sorry, I don’t mean to make light of the sacrifices we’ve all made in the hopes of healers getting useful and interesting buff/debuff spells. We have all suffered at the hands of ffxiv healer design lol.

Just that in my perspective the ‘dps’ aspect of healers tends to come so far to the forefront that mentions of supportive playstyles tend to get buried.

Not that I have anything against healers having dps aspects, though personally I’d want to see them still be distinct from standard dps. I.E supportive dps abilities like debuffing enemies and/or synergy (not necessarily direct interaction) between healing/dps kits for certain jobs, gcd buffs increasing party member damage or defenses for indirect dps contributions, etc.

It’s funny though, devs say they don’t want healers to have dps abilities because it’d get in the way of healing, but then they pretend that buff/debuff support just doesn’t exist and isn’t a possible option. Even though, if people were somehow buffing/debuffing so much they literally didn’t heal (extremely unlikely lol just like dps’ing so much they don’t heal), they could put a base heal potency on support abilities to completely negate that issue. Doing the same with dps abilities would be more difficult because there’d need to be a Kardia-style damage converter for them to do the same - otherwise single target dps heals wouldn’t know where to go lol

Basically, devs pretend support doesn’t exist as an option even though it would be arguably even easier to slot them into the current healer playstyle than it would be to add more dps abilities (since you’d need to make further adjustments for them to fit in). In my opinion, anyway. And naturally, I don’t think that having a ‘support buff/debuff’ oriented approach to healers precludes them from being dps oriented. It would just mean shifting from ‘indirect dps contribution’ to ‘direct dps contribution’, which we essentially have the foundations of with Astrologian/Scholar and White Mage / Sage respectively

We don't need much, just a couple of small, focused changes is enough to spice things up. For example, for the damage side of things, all I would ask for WHM is to reduce Dia's duration to 12s (because 30s feels stupid), and to add a new Water/Banish GCD with a 15s CD. That's all. That's not going to suddenly make WHM gigabrain to play, you could even make a macro to auto-use Banish if it's ready and Glare if it isn't, if you wanted.

As mentioned elsewhere, you never saw these 'healing is boring' complaints back in Stormblood when AST had it's old cards and SCH had it's DOTs. All we heard back then was 'can we make WHM as fun as SCH/AST and not have these trash Lily thingys', and SE heard that and went 'ok, we have reduced the fun of SCH/AST to achieve fun parity, enjoy' instead of just doing the SHB Lily fix to SB WHM and building on it from there

'More healing required' would be a more 'thematic to the role' solution. It'd also absolutely devastate the more casual players and likely cause an even bigger exodus from the role than we've seen. Abyssos ramped healing required, and we're in the situation we're in now. It got so bad that even JP started asking about the shortage

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

'More healing required' would be a more 'thematic to the role' solution. It'd also absolutely devastate the more casual players and likely cause an even bigger exodus from the role than we've seen. Abyssos ramped healing required, and we're in the situation we're in now. It got so bad that even JP started asking about the shortage

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This is often brought up as the reason why healers exist as they do (‘new players can’t handle anything else’), but that kind of feels like a smokescreen to me lol. It assumes that the healers is literally the only job with any healing or support capability which simply isn’t true.

Like, if we take Lil Jimmy NoFriends as a new WHM into expert roulette. The tank itself is going to have various defensive / healing capabilities for both themselves and others. Melee dps have Feint and Second Wind, Red Mage and Summoner have the obvious healing capabilities, Bards can buff defense and healing amounts and Dancers have limited healing capabilities. Unless he’s going into a 4-man dungeon with a specific setup of 3 dps (which he’d have to intentionally opt into as a pre-made) - which are all melee - it’s doesn’t seem to accurate to me to say ‘he has to do everything healing related all by himself and it will not be possible because he lacks the required skill’.

Obviously I’m not advocating that literally all healers should be carried through content by tanks and dps, but at the same time, the ‘healers can’t need to heal more because newbies can’t handle it’ is predicated on the idea that nobody else can help them, which I personally don’t think is true outside of extremely specific circumstances

Addendum: rather than rewording the post (I didn’t realise how it looked until I re-read it lol) I just want to clarify that the ‘they’ making this argument is the devs themselves, rather than general community

I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex healing

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Theirs only so much "healing" spells you can add really thats the issue.
Fights are also just not designed for healers to heal most of the time, so they would also need to change that, I think having Proc based attacks on healer would add more to look out for.

Don't get me wrong I want healers and tanks to actually have more impact and importance in their support tools even in casual content, instead of making them plainly green/blue DPS only. But that will likely not change unless fight design changes.

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I understand that and I agree with you. I wish SE could revamp and rework our healing toolkit as a whole and make healing/support asepct of the toolkit more interactive and interesting.

I know it's very unlikely for SE to do so, but the same could be said about the requset for more dps options. According to healer subforums, they have been asking for more dps options for years. It didn't get us anywhere. If anything, the statement from Yoshi-P during the Endwalker interview only enforced his stance of "no dps for healers"

I'm not averse to more dps buttons for healers though. I just prefer having a gameply that focus more on utility and healing to doing dps.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

There have already been some comments regarding this, I would just add that I find our healing toolkit to be bloated for our current game design. If DPS options (note- again there is this concern about "complex" DPS rotations- which is coming out of nowhere) were added AND some changes were added to encounters that required us to use our support and healing in more interesting ways and not just dodge mechanics, that would definitely get my vote.

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It's not coming out of nowhere though. I didn't mention "complex dps rotation" with the intent to make a strawman. It's in the title of this very thread.

Yes, our healing toolkits are bloated. To make matters worse, non healer roles are also capable of contributing lots of healing.

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Originally Posted by Connor

How come nobody ever asks for actual support gcds and utility spells or debuffs lol, it’s always either ‘pure heal’ or ‘pure damage with ogcd healing’

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Yes, more support GCDs. New skills, regardless of healing or dps, coming in the form of oGCD still results in 11111 gameplay.

Spreadsheet warriors asked for this, so SE obliged them. We used to have more support, more job synergy more Individuality but then someone broke out a calculator, declared a certain job combination suboptimal and a few years later this is the result. Blissful uniformity.
People also bitched about melee uptime so SE made bosses bigger.
Honestly, I don't envy them. No wonder they stopped replying in the EN forums years ago. lol

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Originally Posted by Connor

Obviously I’m not advocating that literally all healers should be carried through content by tanks and dps, but at the same time, the ‘healers can’t need to heal more because newbies can’t handle it’ is predicated on the idea that nobody else can help them, which I personally don’t think is true outside of extremely specific circumstances

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Yes, I would also like to believe that by the time a player reaches EX roulette they would have enough skill to meet a slightly higher challenge than what is currently offered by the game. But some insist that adding more damage buttons to the healers would cause said players to be unable to keep up, and cause wipes. So, by that token, I would argue that not only would 'more healing required' also cause said players to be unable to keep up, them being unable to keep up would not be just 'oh they might not make the enrage timer and cause wipe' (what enrage timer in EX roulette, Cagnazzo charging his ult?), it would cause literal wipes because 'I could not keep people alive because I ran out of MP/I did not know my range limits/I mismanaged CDs earlier in the fight/whatever reason'.

And again, the point of a change that would 'solve the problem' is that it has to solve the problem in all content. It's no good if Savage requires more healing, but Ex roulette and 24mans are left alone to protect the casuals. Because then the problem still exists in those contents. A solution should be able to affect all content levels, and be impactful to those who need it's effect, and as ignoreable as possible for those who do not, or those who cannot perceive it's impact. So, slightly more involved damage rotation, potencies balanced such that Glarespamming is 90%+ of your total potential output. Those who want to go giga-sweaty in a 24man can, those who don't, can ignore it all. We've done the maths on how to make more interesting rotations, and balanced them such that 'Glarespam style' is less of a DPS loss to the design, than it's possible to lose thanks to crit variance right now. If random people on a forum for a 10year old MMO can manage to math a design like that out, SE sure should be able to

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

I didn't mention "complex dps rotation" with the intent to make a strawman. It's in the title of this very thread.

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I know it's in the title, but we have to be careful with the phrase and the context surrounding it. 'Complex DPS rotation' and 'more complex DPS rotation' are two very different things, potentially. For example, if we were to have, on SCH:

Bio, 30s duration
Miasma, 24s duration
Shadowflare, 15s duration

That is 'more complex DPS rotation' than what we have now. But I doubt anyone would seriously call it a 'complex DPS rotation', only 'more complex than the current one'. Personally, all I'm asking for is one or two buttons on each healer. If that creates something that qualifies as a 'complex DPS rotation', then that's just sad, that such simple rotations would be considered 'actually complex' and not just 'more complex than current'

What I can see happening, which is a concern I've voiced before, about adding an actual rotation or burst phase to healers is that healers will be encouraged to not heal if it will interrupt the rotation or burst phase. No matter how dire the situation you will either be healed at the end of a rotation when it won't interrupt other abilities they use for DPS or not at all during a burst phase so they don't waste GCD or oGCDs if they have them for dps during that time.

Come on, some comments in this thread are ridiculous.

"Play a dps if you want to dps".

Please refrain from spouting bs when you are clueless.

Healers have been green dps since ARR, end of the line. Their gameplay has considerably worsened since pretty much SB. ShB rubbed salt in the wound and let's not talk about the spit in the face that was EW.

Now, not everything is grim and healers are again in a very good state but... only in pvp, where they mostly focus on burst/support (and cc but kinda irrelevant) with heals on a cd. In fact, if they could do away with their s*** pve constraints and bring over some of the pvp things they've added to pve, the game would be immensely more fun.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

What I can see happening, which is a concern I've voiced before, about adding an actual rotation or burst phase to healers is that healers will be encouraged to not heal if it will interrupt the rotation or burst phase. No matter how dire the situation you will either be healed at the end of a rotation when it won't interrupt other abilities they use for DPS or not at all during a burst phase so they don't waste GCD or oGCDs if they have them for dps during that time.

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They quite literally made tanks' 123 combo no longer able to be broken by their ranged GCD aggro attack and most of the healers heal on the oGCD where they can weave their combo. This holds no water.

Also, whoever said that a healer's rotation would look akin to a tank/melee dps? They can have debuffs that do damage on a 15s recast timer, extra DoTs to add on (which are press and forget btw), delayed damaging abilities akin to Earthly Star, or some combination of the above.

Any healer worth their salt is going to heal when they need to. What that looks like is going to be different depending on the healer, their team, the fight, and their gear. I may stop my rotation because I feel I need to heal half way through the 15s of the 2min window another healer may say, "no, you can wait" and be just as right as I cause they know you aren't going to die in 15s.

Neither of these responses are justification for not giving us extra dps.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

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My gut reaction was that there are DPS classes for that. But I think that was the myopic, reactionary response.

A more thoughtful reaction would be: why not? Just as DPS jobs offer both SMN (simple) and BLM (complex), maybe there should be a single healer job that adds that complexity for players who want something more involved to diddle with between heals.