Has it Been Mentioned? -- Guildhests

I havent Played all of this week, until Today, Sunday: Aug 20th 2023
(Work, life, sleepy, hanign with friends, playing other game Blahblahblah)

And I did all my Dailies.
One of these struck me with Nostalgia, as I did it quite alot when I was raising all of the Jobs from Lv1....Guildhests.
These Teach You some pretty Neat Mechanics for Fights later......but it hit me....we never get fights like these in the actual content!
Or at least not to this Caliber.

Annoy the Shadow and Ward Up are some fights that would be very neat to see in Newer and much harder Raid Series.
Or even Solemn Trinity where you have to Defend some Objectives while fighting the Enemy.
We have some FATES like this, but never Dungeon or Raid Mechanics like this.

Or maybe I just dont remember them. Might need to have my memory jogged if we already have this.
Last time I recall these types of Mechanics to a degree, has been Bozja, and The Diadem: before it became a Gathers Paradise

I like alot of our raids, but we should definitely get more Objectives and Responsibilities. Id love to see more Raids like Old School Diadem and The Baldesion Arsenal. Some real Hardmode Large-scale Raids.
Thoughts?

Unfortunately, most of the guildhest mechanics are relegated to open world content like fates and maybe hunts. Dungeons kinda had/have a few like Aurum vale; where you need to kill the morbol eggs or you get overwhelmed, but you know how people feel/felt about that dungeon. A Realm Reborn is the height of XIV's content design in my opinion; the jobs just needed Stormblood-level mechanics.

Ever since heavensward every dungeon is 2 mechanics-less pulls between 3 bosses. That's the height of cbu3 creativity and quality.

They don't like to work for nothing. Guildhests probably was used as a way to test mechanics, later on they transformed in a tutorial.
I think they won't change or use everything as they showed.



I would like to see some changes in Grand Company tho. They could work on some exclusive instances/dungeons to stimulate GC migration.

Annoy the Void would just be running around clicking things. I don't see how this would be a neat mechanic. Ward Up's mechanic does happen in some savage and ultimate content and arguably alliance raid content, except in alliance raids they tend to just rebalance eachothers health pools regularly if you focus down one of them.

I agree that defending something has not really been the style of content FFXIV does but that's really because the raids in this game are just a circle or a square, and also because when SE creates adds they just make them melt. Solemn Trinity works because it's actually not a square or circle.

We could certainly have a modern version of guildhests that focus on specific themed enemies from the expansion. A fun one might be the fight from the Shadowbringers trailer that also features in Holminster Switch, except they could do it without the circle arena and make it more intense.

But saying that they could have made the morbol fight from the 1.0 trailer more intense as well to actually resemble the intensity. The guildhest version you can just stand still, yawn and mash your abilities and it dies. SE just doesn't care about guildhests nor any concept similar to them because they are a relic from the 1.0 design plan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Unfortunately, most of the guildhest mechanics are relegated to open world content like fates and maybe hunts. Dungeons kinda had/have a few like Aurum vale; where you need to kill the morbol eggs or you get overwhelmed, but you know how people feel/felt about that dungeon. A Realm Reborn is the height of XIV's content design in my opinion; the jobs just needed Stormblood-level mechanics.

Ever since heavensward every dungeon is 2 mechanics-less pulls between 3 bosses. That's the height of cbu3 creativity and quality.

---

Deal lord I will never be able to explain to one of my friends how Bad Aurem Vale was back in the Day.

And, well I think its reflected in the Playerbase, because people complained about difficulty, and so the Devs responded by making things Easier. I think we all need to come together, and demand/ask for Harder content, and not just Ultimites, but rather harder content in general. If we request it enough, maybe we will get it.
Which I THINK they are TRYING to do with Criterion and Variants, but we need more Varying Fights and Mechanics. Not just more AOE Markers.

My Thoughts at least.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elissar

They don't like to work for nothing. Guildhests probably was used as a way to test mechanics, later on they transformed in a tutorial.
I think they won't change or use everything as they showed.



I would like to see some changes in Grand Company tho. They could work on some exclusive instances/dungeons to stimulate GC migration.

---

I mean, nobody would XD
But I like the idea with the GCs, I like to think and hope we will see an update, they have just always been slow to do so. I like to think its intentional...but I dont work there, all I can do is speculate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Annoy the Void would just be running around clicking things. I don't see how this would be a neat mechanic.
Ward Up's mechanic does happen in some savage and ultimate content and arguably alliance raid content, except in alliance raids they tend to just rebalance eachothers health pools regularly if you focus down one of them.
I agree that defending something has not really been the style of content FFXIV does but that's really because the raids in this game are just a circle or a square, and also because when SE creates adds they just make them melt. Solemn Trinity works because it's actually not a square or circle.

We could certainly have a modern version of guildhests that focus on specific themed enemies from the expansion. A fun one might be the fight from the Shadowbringers trailer that also features in Holminster Switch, except they could do it without the circle arena and make it more intense.

But saying that they could have made the morbol fight from the 1.0 trailer more intense as well to actually resemble the intensity. The guildhest version you can just stand still, yawn and mash your abilities and it dies. SE just doesn't care about guildhests nor any concept similar to them because they are a relic from the 1.0 design plan.

---

I liekw to think they could integrate these into the New Modern Era...just of course, they have to actually do it and put effort into it.
And then as been proven in every expansion, whenever they create something challenging and hard, most of the time, people complain its to hard and needs to be nerfed into the ground.
This is unfortunate for the game, its a fun breeze, I love it for what it is, but it needs more harder content with more variety to it.

As much as I would like variation...I can see myself getting really annoyed when I tell people "Hey you have to split the damage up and try to finish them off in quick succession or else they just keep coming back forever" and somehow what I said was unclear...so they keep focusing one at a time.

That one shouldn't take 10 minutes and it usually does.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renalt

As much as I would like variation...I can see myself getting really annoyed when I tell people "Hey you have to split the damage up and try to finish them off in quick succession or else they just keep coming back forever" and somehow what I said was unclear...so they keep focusing one at a time.

That one shouldn't take 10 minutes and it usually does.

---

I hated getting that in my mentor roulette grind so much. If someone is capable to keep you all hostage in there if they want, it's a bad mechanic.
I once ran it with a bot. It took forever and a lot of learning how/who the bot targetted before we finally cleared.

I think beating Ward Up should be mandatory for the MSQ... While you can brute force through it, it is much faster and easier to learn how to pay attention.

Guildhests were meant to be tutorials on how to deal with mechanics in group play -- but as you have pointed out, those mechanics don't really show up in the game except in niche moments and optional content. We have Hall of the Novice now for the most bare-bones basics, but it would be nice if they overhauled Guildhests to be more in line with the current state of the game and actually useful for new players to learn how to play.

Create simple battle scenarios based around the different markers, like having players spread out or stack together. Have one that demonstrates vulnerability stacks for getting hit by AoEs, or debuffs. Maybe one where a random player gets targeted by chains and the others have to break the chains to free them. I've just recently had roulette runs for the Aery and Battle in the Big Keep where I got stuck in Sable Price / Iron Chain and nobody broke me out, they just completely ignored me and I died. I also still see players with stack markers who think they need to run as far away from the rest of the party as they can.

Cut players off at level 30 and force them to equip their Job Stone if they wish to continue progressing. Go all the way up to level 50, with an 8-player boss that has a frontal cleave or beam or something, to show how tanks need to coordinate and not spin the enemy around. Cap it off with some sort of awesome prize like a minion or mount or something for completing them all, so that people will actually be incentivized to do them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renalt

As much as I would like variation...I can see myself getting really annoyed when I tell people "Hey you have to split the damage up and try to finish them off in quick succession or else they just keep coming back forever" and somehow what I said was unclear...so they keep focusing one at a time.

That one shouldn't take 10 minutes and it usually does.

---

This is pretty much the reason content is the way that it is.

FFXIV does a great job in limiting player 'frustration from failure' by limiting time loss on things like dungeon wipes (always a shortcut after every boss) and major boss (free instant reset).

But in spite of this, players of course still prefer not to wipe, and the most common cause of wipes on any encounter is going to be lack of coordination after lack of knowledge. The only way to coordinate in some of those Guildhests is for folks to read and chat, and, taking Ward Up, if they didn't read the description telling them what to do, odds are they aren't going to read what the party says to do. The party probably won't say anything until that player makes a mistake, too. So, this just echoes forever everywhere in the game.

LotA has the 3 Atomos paths and you can easily have a group that doesn't know what to do that you can't actively assist if you already split up, all you can do is chat. For almost every 24 man raid series after that, all parties coexist in the same arena, even on fights like Hobbes where you appear to be separated (he'll automatically reposition players if they're rezzed elsewhere).

Normal raids like Alexander or trials like Leviathan, where the party wipes unless at least one person knows what to do, don't exist anymore and instead you get fights like e12n where you can aim all avoidable damage at the memories in the interphase and they still won't shatter. Yes, I think Hero on the Halfshell requires more coordination and party awareness to complete than most raids.

Most fights knowledge with the direction they choose just equates to 'how to dodge' instead of 'coordination', which helps players not have to engage with each other: just watch where the one player that doesn't die keeps going if you're getting hit.

This feeling of not wanting to have to chat is even so pervasive on NA that we have waymarks set up to organize who's going where and doing what in advance of the pull even starting while the other regions at least post a macro in the chat and players type out their positions.

I mean heck, people are still annoyed about coordination required in Guildhests here, the content designed to be easy and low-pressure for learning.

Edit: Even the 'newer' (patch 2.3) Novice training area teaches things like 'sometimes, you need to interact with an object' or 'adds will show up while fighting boss', but these are mechanics that are incredibly rare. The last thing you had to click on in a boss fight might have been the shadow circles vs Rofocale, and adds have shown up while the game allows you to still attack the main boss twice in EW: Savage Phoinix Black Fires (cuz it's really an ARR mechanic), and normal Hephaestus. Neither of these have aggro tables so the tanks don't have to pay special attention. Technically Cindruvha summons the other two Magus Sisters, so congrats there, but they just copy aggro anyways, and you're not meant to switch targets. The ghost heads in Troia ARE the boss.

The most interesting thing they've done with adds in years has been the trash pulls in the Criterion, so kudos to that developer.

Tanks should get a required "how to do wall to wall pulls" tutorial, as that's what tanking in xiv boils down to, unless you're a hard content raider.

Healers should get a required
"how to use focus target" tutorial
"how to move party list to a place where you can see who needs healing" tutorial
"healing wall to wall pull tanks" tutorial

Once healers experience and are successful at those tutorials there will be less crying coming from those 2 roles.

As for adding guildhest-like mechanics, it was ok in variant dungeon as some have pointed out, but notice how barren variant dungeons are. Making unique and mechanics-heavy content means you'll only get 2 bosses instead of 3 and trash mobs will amount to striking dummies.
I guess the only way forward is even more boring trash mobs and seeing the same 2 bosses, so overall less content but slightly more engaging?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

Go all the way up to level 50, with an 8-player boss that has a frontal cleave or beam or something, to show how tanks need to coordinate and not spin the enemy around.

---

Ifrit Hard already does that. Unfortunately, the overtuned level sync means he hits like a wet noodle unless the victim is a fresh 50 who just barely made the gear requirement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Ifrit Hard already does that. Unfortunately, the overtuned level sync means he hits like a wet noodle unless the victim is a fresh 50 who just barely made the gear requirement.

---

Titan normal also does it. He does a cone one and I think even if max Ilvl it'll hurt a ton for healer/dps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Deal lord...

---

I feel like people consistently don't understand that the game is what it is today because of people asking for it. And not "casuals" asking it be "dumbed down".

1) The 2 minute meta came from raiders complaining about Jobs having different personal CDs that didn't align.

2) MOST homogenization came from players complaining some other Job got a thing and their Job either didn't have it or had a worse version. This is especially apparent in Healers, but also in Tanks (one of the few things they have distinct now, their Ultimates, we see DRKs constantly be asking theirs become more like either WAR or PLD's, despite these same people complaining about how similar DRK is to WAR).

3) Encounter design moved away from interesting mechanics because raiders complained about it. Think back to the Alexander raid where someone has to become a monkey to punt the bombs or pilot the gobwalkers. In the modern era, people would be complaining about their parse taking a hit when they have to do it, or what happens if that mechanic comes up right into a 2 min burst window? Now you're a monkey for 15-30 seconds and have to start your burst after everyone else and can't realign for the rest of the encounter. While part of this IS the fault of the 2 min meta (see the (1) above), it's also part of the damage >>> all parse mentality.

4) People want to "get in and get out". The community would ill stomach launch Orbonne. I remember my first ever run of it, we cleared just 10 mins before the timer ran out. My later clears were faster, but it would still be an hour in there. As much as people complain about people stripping to do CT only, there's a reason for that - many people don't want adventures when they que for roulettes, they want tomes. And this INCLUDES hardcore players. A Savage raid team doesn't want to spend 2 hours in Orbonne with a bunch of people failing mechanics and wiping the raid. People consider 24 mans novel launch week, but 4-5 weeks later, don't want to be in them for hours at a time. This is also true of dungeons. The reason there are walls in 4 mans due to 2 pack-wall-2 pack-boss;repeatx3 designs are because PLAYERS WERE DOING THIS. Players would run and grab half the mobs, burn them down, then the other half, boss, rinse and repeat. It got to where really high end players could pull everything between bosses in some dungeons...and would berate any new Tanks or more casual players that didn't want to pull that big. So the Devs stepped in with the walls. The Devs didn't design this gameplay, THE PLAYERS DID.

...if people would realize that most of the things they complain about we have because they literally asked for them, it would help.

"But they were different people!" SOMEtimes, yes. But many times, no. What matters in the end is that we should be more measured in what we ask for and how we behave in game, since that's what the Devs base future design around.

.

EDIT:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Tanks should get a required "how to do wall to wall pulls" tutorial, as that's what tanking in xiv boils down to, unless you're a hard content raider.

---

Wait, what?

NO! XD

THIS IS PART OF THE PROBLEM.

We shouldn't be instilling the "wall to wall" mentality. THAT'S why dungeons are hallways now. BECAUSE of players having the incessant wall to wall mentality. We need to break from that, NOT enshrine it!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

Wait, what?

NO! XD

THIS IS PART OF THE PROBLEM.

We shouldn't be instilling the "wall to wall" mentality. THAT'S why dungeons are hallways now. BECAUSE of players having the incessant wall to wall mentality. We need to break from that, NOT enshrine it!

---

Haha! Don't blame me, that's cbu3's award winning game design. But I agree, it's time they start leading with creativity instead "what worked before."
xiv's stagnant, just because it worked in heavensward doesn't mean we should have the same game design 3 expansions in a row.

While they're at it get rid of the scions, I'm sick and tired of seeing them again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renalt

As much as I would like variation...I can see myself getting really annoyed when I tell people "Hey you have to split the damage up and try to finish them off in quick succession or else they just keep coming back forever" and somehow what I said was unclear...so they keep focusing one at a time.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

I hated getting that in my mentor roulette grind so much. If someone is capable to keep you all hostage in there if they want, it's a bad mechanic.

---

The saving grace of Ward Up is that eventually the smaller demons spawn a single large one and you just have to defeat that.

But yes, a remarkable amount of people don't read the instructions, either from the game itself or from teammates. It should be straightforward but isn't.

It seems to be getting brute-forceable now, which is... convenient, I guess, but also disappointing. Same for some other guildhests like Stinging Back. I'd like to see them retuned a bit.

I would definitely like to see some more additions to the guildhest list, or similar content.

The closest we've come to it is the critical encounters in Bozja – I would love it if they took those fights and created a roulette version of them that you can just do casually without being locked into an instance.

Quote:

---

Tanks should get a required "how to do wall to wall pulls" tutorial, as that's what tanking in xiv boils down to, unless you're a hard content raider.

---

Rubbish.

No they should not. we did that with an overenthusiastic tank last night in Brayflox. All dead when we got swamped. I dont see the appeal in this warp ten mentality, theres no hurry and tanks should set their own pace.

Quote:

---

While they're at it get rid of the scions, I'm sick and tired of seeing them again.

---

Im not.

Wall-to-wall pulls happen in large part because people pressure tanks to do them and are toxic if they don't. Once I started doing them, nobody was toxic again in well over 10,000 duties at this point (except 1 person in Shadowbringers so I swiftly reported them and moved on). Once you start doing them it's hard to go back because pulling 3 enemies is painfully boring for all the roles involved. But big pulls aren't as standard as some people say, because plenty of tanks just do single pulls, especially in non-expert dungeons and the point remains that if people weren't pressured to do it, then even less people would ever start doing it.

It's quite a good idea for SE to do it this way because if you want the easy mode you can do a single pull and if you want it to be challenging you can pull multiple packs. And I know a lot of people here may not see it as challenging but the fact is there can be wipes to big pulls, especially in leveling dungeons. With a single pull there is barely any prospect of that. If SE wanted big pulls to be the standard, I think they would just make all the packs aggro you at once when you reach the wall, rather than make a tutorial for it.

Anyway, this post isn't about dungeons, tutorials or big pulls. It's about guildhests.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

I feel like people consistently don't understand that the game is what it is today because of people asking for it. And not "casuals" asking it be "dumbed down".

---

Maybe Im being Slow, but isnt that kind of what I said?
Or...kind of the same thing?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

, because people complained about difficulty, and so the Devs responded by making things Easier.

---

Ok so maybe I didnt use that Exact Wording, but I feel like it kind of Equals the same Argument.
Im not even disagreeing with it. As I said ""we all need to come together, and demand/ask for Harder content, and not just Ultimites, but rather harder content in general""

But Ive given my thoughts on an idea of HOW they could do that, but as seen in alot of posts here my General Idea has some Holes that would probly meet pushback.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Anyway, this post isn't about dungeons, tutorials or big pulls. It's about guildhests.

---

Well, specifically its about how we should get some new Mechanics that would possibly be more Objective Based like they were in the Guildhests, they seemed like they were made to teach us / Train us for Mechanics later in the game. But Ive been here since Heavensward, and noticed alot of what they trained us for does NOT happen in this game.
I still love it, but we definitely need more variety...which it does seem like they are slowly TRYING to do.

((EDIT))
Maybe Im being a big Dumb-Dumb and you meant YOUR post wasn't about Dungeons

Honestly Guildhests and Grand Companies are good examples of how the game just leaves behind anything that doesn't drive the narrative, creating a pretty static and empty world once that narrative is done being told. Guildhests could have been continued to create interesting new combat scenarios and could have awarded relic materials or materia or whatever the latest greatest currency they come up with is. Grand companies could also have been a way for us to embark on large scale field combat kind of the same way Bozja did.

The Grand Companies were never given much purpose in the first place. You join, you get one quest that varies by location but is functionally identical, and then....you can freely ignore it forever without consequence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Ok so maybe I didnt use that Exact Wording, but I feel like it kind of Equals the same Argument.
Im not even disagreeing with it. As I said ""we all need to come together, and demand/ask for Harder content, and not just Ultimites, but rather harder content in general""

But Ive given my thoughts on an idea of HOW they could do that, but as seen in alot of posts here my General Idea has some Holes that would probly meet pushback.

---

So let your ideas meet pushback. That doesn't mean you won't also have supporters for your ideas. They may even think of ways your ideas could be improved. That's why many companies have brainstorming sessions. One person's "meh" idea can spark an improved idea in someone else.

But definitely don't expect "all" players to come together to demand more harder content. Some are happy with the way things are. It's those who want that harder content to come together.

Sad the most interesting group combat is in Guildhests. (well some older raids too, but those will probably be "updated" someday as well)

The boss design changed after heavensward I think to a more modern telegraphs-and-debuffs workflow that we see in fights now, possibly as a result of player feedback and an attempt to streamline how mechanics are communicated. We'll probably not see unique mechanics like early ARR again unless they figure out how they can get their AI systems to handle them. These design choices persist in ARR content like guildhests and level 50 dungeons today, as well as maybe the Bahamut coils and to a lesser extent Crystal Tower raids (the latter going so fast usually that no one really gets to do them under most conditions).

I think the changes overall are positive and flexible, but could feel restrictive from a development standpoint sometime in the future. How many times and in how many ways can you tell someone to move from point A to point B to accommodate a happening at point C? Quite a lot it turns out, but with time it would not be a surprise at all to me if the playerbase thought this content strategy has gotten stale. I think that will happen eventually, but that would be because the MMORPG model has also changed and is true of other games as well. Maybe in this respect FF14 could be a pioneer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

The Grand Companies were never given much purpose in the first place. You join, you get one quest that varies by location but is functionally identical, and then....you can freely ignore it forever without consequence.

---

My squadron will forever be working out in their chocobo suits.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amnmaat

Unfortunately, most of the guildhest mechanics are relegated to open world content like fates and maybe hunts. Dungeons kinda had/have a few like Aurum vale; where you need to kill the morbol eggs or you get overwhelmed, but you know how people feel/felt about that dungeon. A Realm Reborn is the height of XIV's content design in my opinion; the jobs just needed Stormblood-level mechanics.

---

I never understood the hate for Aurum Vale. Since mob EXP existed at decent levels back then, you could farm the first room with friends to level-grind, and the dungeon as a whole gave greater %EXP for its level than Darkhold or Cutter's Cry did for theirs.

So casters didn't want to stand in front of vents and you had to ranged pull some pats first to be safe if you had an especially bad tank and/or healer... boo hoo? Coincounter could have up to 10 mechanics cancelled by PLDs or WAR + melee DPS and the attacks were pretty damn intuitive regardless after you'd seen each once.

(Coincounter's before-and-after makes me wish we'd just subtly demark the edges of most AoEs instead of going full red terrain on/for everything.)

And yeah, wholly agreed on ARR having, by and large, the most interesting dungeon designs. Pre-nerfs AK and PS, Amdapor Keep HM, Halatali HM... good times.

___________________


As for Guildhests... honestly, some of them made the content type feel like it had promise. I would have liked to see them creatively continued.

Yeah I agree that i liked when I had to watch the body language of Coincounter to see what was up. Yeah if it's yoyr 1st time you may get nailed with an attack but only one of them was punishing. I mean if you see a 10 ton attack that's an AoE and get hit with that and it hurt but you survived...it's safe to say when you see it again but it says 100 ton...that you should not be there.

Kinda wish they'd gone with the "flashes right before the hit" type of telegraph for the Coincounter, like Omega's Starboard/Larboard cannons. Too late to dodge, but at least you can see what happened for next time. Some of those attacks are a bit oddly shaped.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renathras

Wait, what?

NO! XD

THIS IS PART OF THE PROBLEM.

We shouldn't be instilling the "wall to wall" mentality. THAT'S why dungeons are hallways now. BECAUSE of players having the incessant wall to wall mentality. We need to break from that, NOT enshrine it!

---

And from where did we end up with that "wall to wall" mentality? Because the devs removed virtually all danger involved in mass pulling, then realized they could just pull mobs to the boss (first to lock them out, then to AoE them with the boss) which they "solved" by creating walls that were impassible until the nerfed-to-hell mobs were dead.

Player-chosen variety depends on tuning; if risk can be ignored, it will be ignored. By replacing any difficulty and player chosen difficulty with solely unavoidable/unmanipulable ways of pace-setting via walls, they not only made "wall-to-wall" the norm but also made runs of the same dungeon feel less varied/variable.

I'm sorry, but the community isn't worth blaming for its simply having adapted to the changes given to it (as opposed to, what, RPing that a threat remains / purposely doing runs half-naked for no reward?).

Does some part of that blame lie with a portion of the community who insisted that Amdapor Keep, Pharos Sirius, and the like be hugely nerfed (with some of its bosses even losing a good half their mechanics)? Maybe. But it's also on the devs to take their feedback with a grain of salt and a margin of foresight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Kinda wish they'd gone with the "flashes right before the hit" type of telegraph for the Coincounter, like Omega's Starboard/Larboard cannons. Too late to dodge, but at least you can see what happened for next time. Some of those attacks are a bit oddly shaped.

---

That'd be fine, too. I prefer to also have 'edges (very subtly) marked only' before the hit, since it allows for minimalistic movement without needing to quite to the whole level of precisely eyeballing distance from mob, but whatever allows players to quickly learn the mechanic without relying on covering the floor in gaudy AoE indicators (or, just as bad, devolving the mechanic to just responding to those indicators instead of engaging with the ability names or readying animations) sounds good to me.

(I also wouldn't mind having a soft %HP based damage cap on some skills, like Coincounter's radial swing dealing at most 99.9% of HP, as that'd then be recoverable... so long as we accelerate a follow-up mechanic to demand immediate healing instead of thereby making Swing effectively zero threat.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renalt

Yeah I agree that I liked when I had to watch the body language of Coincounter to see what was up. Yeah if it's your 1st time you may get nailed with an attack but only one of them was punishing. I mean if you see a 10 ton attack that's an AoE and get hit with that and it hurt but you survived...it's safe to say when you see it again but it says 100 ton...that you should not be there.

---

Pretty sure the Ten-Tonne radial AoE one-shot clothies back in the day unless they had the food buff and good gear or a Stoneskin/Succor. Heck, I think it was usually a one-shot to Monks, too, with only DRGs being able to survive, outside of the circumstances above.

Remember Ultros and Typhoon?
You had to turn into Imps and absorb Ultros Water Attacks, then you'd use those stacks to prevent Typhoon's Sneeze.
You could actually wipe due to a ring out.

Rotational Sneeze was also interesting to dodge.

In the end, people complained a lot and that fight is just a shell of it's former self, I think it was around that time they just gave up trying to make different mechanics like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Balmung_Griffin

Remember Ultros and Typhoon?
You had to turn into Imps and absorb Ultros Water Attacks, then you'd use those stacks to prevent Typhoon's Sneeze.
You could actually wipe due to a ring out.

Rotational Sneeze was also interesting to dodge.

In the end, people complained a lot and that fight is just a shell of it's former self, I think it was around that time they just gave up trying to make different mechanics like that.

---

That's the kind of stuff games like GW2 and to an extent, WoW has; where you have to do this duty specific thing to do progress. In GW2 you have to fight waves of enemies and hitting them with a special hammer that absorbs the enemy's energy which you then use to unshackle a giant stone man.

square enix gave up on making games, now it's downsized to mario-level of pick-up and play.