Why is it a separate skill? I thought they wanted to reduce button bloat, this is the opposite of that. Just merge it with Shoha, and while they are at it, put Kaiten back in the now freed up slot. Two stones with one bird and all that.
Then again it's not like they ever listen to any of the feedback given and just keep going down their own road of idiocy.
Shoha II is stupid...
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07-16-2023, 11:39 AMEngaruShoha II is stupid...
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07-16-2023, 12:44 PMElissar
Oh come on...they listen feedback. They improved MCH, partially DRK... you just need to make sure that you are not the only one complaining.
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07-16-2023, 12:51 PMkayll
Pretty smart to put the name of a different skill in the title of this Kaiten thread, maybe Square will click this one and get tricked into reading.
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07-16-2023, 01:31 PMEngaruI doubt it, they've been practically ignoring all the SAM threads on the EN and JP forums for over a year now and I don't think they'll start reading them now.Quote:
Originally Posted by kayll
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07-16-2023, 10:07 PMDeo14Let's have a look at thread just from first page of this DPS subforum:Quote:
Originally Posted by Elissar
Caster thread: 1
General: 1
RDM: 3
SAM: 4
DRG: 1
New class idea: 2
SMN: 2
Phys ranged thread: 1
DNC: 1
BRD: 1
MCH: 1
Buffs and support skills: 1
Melee thread: 1
There are 13 job-exclusive threads, SAM has 4 of them, 2 of them are largest here. So SAM definitely has enough feedback.
SAM problems started at 6.1 (even before that actually, people knew that changes are terrible when they were announced). Common conclusion of SAM threads is that removing Kaiten makes no sense, when we have real bloat like Shoha 2 (like this thread mentions), Guren and Kyuten, and also Iki being separate button from Ogi. Just half a year after 6.1, there were 100+ SAM posts just here, and 150+ pages in JP SAM megathread. It didn't do anything, they are listening, they're aware of the problems, but they only care about the feedback which follows their biased agenda. Who asked for removing Kaiten? Who asked for circle Tenka? Who asked for Shoha 2? Who asked to make Tenka with insane 8y radius?
I actually do know answer for the last question, it was some guy on JP megathread. It had like 2 upvotes if I remember correctly, but do you know what comment was 2-3 comments above it? It was some guy wanting cone Tenka back, with 34 upvotes if I remember correctly, with similar comments all around with 10+ upvotes each. -
07-17-2023, 04:07 AMWyssahtynthey really do cherry pick the shit out of the feedback they follow up on lmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by Deo14
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07-17-2023, 02:28 PMForsakenRoeIt's easier for a company to cherrypick the softball questions and answer those to give the appearance of 'we listen to our consumers', than to tackle hard hitting questions. For example, at Fanfest, every question asked will likely be vetted before a Q+A panel. So you'll see the so called 'peaches' questions, about stuff we don't care about/need to know, over actual questions with substance. Unless a 'is this an out of season april fools joke' type question changeup happens, there will be no 'where's Kaiten', no 'what are you doing with healers', only stuff like 'what colour is Graha's underwear' or 'is Emet a top, bottom or switch', the worst is when people ask questions that the person answering would never know, like asking Yoshida lore questions. Save it for the lore panelQuote:
Originally Posted by Wyssahtyn
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07-17-2023, 04:44 PMCKNovel
And people keep asking for these kind of buttons, that solely used for dungeons and only requires to be able to count up to 3.
I don't expect SQEX to finally merge the AoE/ST in ST with splash damage just like dragoon already does.
The worst part with Shoha II is that accross all content in the game, Shoha II is only used in EW dungeons.
There's no AoE required in 8-man raiding, 24-man maybe have 1-2 use cases, POTD encourages killing ennemies one by one and Shoha II isn't accessible in either Bozja or Eureka.
So far Shoha II only exist for tomestones farming and a few packs of variant dungeon. -
07-17-2023, 08:14 PMSaberMaxwell"Improved" MCH. In the same way they "fixed" SMN. In the same way they'll probably eventually "improve" all jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elissar
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07-17-2023, 09:08 PMDeo14
Just so it doesn't look like I'm making stuff up, I found source, it's on page 364: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...42-侍スレ/page364
Here's some botched translations of those 2 comments I was speaking about.
This has 36 upvotes. Few comments later, there is this...Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai_Daisuki
...with 1 upvote. But to be fair, there seems to be others saying that circle is okay (or at least it looks like it, translation is botched as usual), some getting good amount of upvotes.Quote:
Originally Posted by sati
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07-17-2023, 09:53 PMCelestiCerGood find, mhm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deo14
Shoha II is a good example of Square feeling they had to add something to go with the new Expansion release that is utterly unnecessary... as it did not improve the Job's gameplay. Merge Shoha I and II with fall off damage ( as mentioned endless times... ) This can be done as well for Guren and Senei, with the introduction of gigantic mobs... have the AoE radiuses increased to accommodate. If I had it my way? Tenka Goken would also be a Conal AoE with Hissatsu: Kaiten reintroduced. The game rewards you now for thinking vs being thoughtless and positioning yourself properly for more damage output. What we do currently in comparison is utterly abysmal gameplay, I'm standing in AoE's ignoring it's damage to hit all the mobs standing dead center. That's it.
Square needs to stop changing Jobs towards room temperature IQ gameplay, do not balance the game around having Arthritis... and quit catering towards Geriatric 60 year old players... ( I don't know if this is a thing I'm just trying to make a point here... ) Listen! Keep Jobs interesting and Fun? and all PvE combat content becomes more Fun. Literally I have turned from Raider? to now a Gposer / Housing Decorator. Call me crazy but in SHB I had no desire to make a Fat-Cat Gpose as I do in EW. And while I love it... I used to love Samurai gameplay astronomically more when we had some ounce a slither of something more then what it is now, mhm. -
07-17-2023, 10:46 PMCKNovelI think they meant post 6.0 with Hypercharge being based on stacks, Automaton Queen targeting your target.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
Of course there's a lot of remaining improvements and interesting feedback being unanswered but I also believe they started listening more closely to the community after 6.2.
Now if we're talking about 5.0 MCH rework... Yes that was a design disaster that aged like milk. They solved a lot of problems but also brought a lot more.
And SQEX started to mention button bloat on MCH, among the jobs with the least buttons to press. -
07-17-2023, 10:51 PMSaberMaxwellI'll never recover from how they destroyed one of my favorite jobs in StB. Though I acknowledge I was one of the few who preferred the StB iteration of MCH.Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNovel
Though yeah hypercharge stacks and pets acting as they should are nice fixes I'll admit. -
07-30-2023, 09:27 AMRyuuZeroI don't get why this is so hard to Understand
Shoha I : Single Target
Shoha II : AoE
it always has been that way, remember Senei? Which got added in Shadowbringers even though we already had Guren? Simple:
Senei: Single Target
Guren: AoE
and let me tell ya, prepare for Ogi to get the same treatment.
But what's more important is to be able to boost Ogi (and all other Weaponskills) with Kaiten. -
07-30-2023, 05:48 PMCKNovelI feel like you missed the point?Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuuZero
Here's an example:
What if Shoha II was instead an upgrade that dealt damage to the selected target and AoE damage to the other targets around.
Guren worked this way before Sen'ei and no one asked for a single target variant.
We would effectively have both the ST and AoE on a single button and solve the "button bloat issue" SQEX keeps creating and complaning about. -
07-30-2023, 06:29 PMDoozerYou really don't do deep dungeons, huh.Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNovel
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07-30-2023, 10:59 PMCKNovelI do and since you did as well you should be aware that past a certain floor, you don't want to mix monsters in Eureka Orthors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doozer
It's true that in POTD and HOH you can stack monsters since they don't have mechanics but Shoha II isn't available.
Sorry for putting "POTD", just a bad habit. -
08-03-2023, 06:20 PMExperiment_X4d2You mean like they did with Spirits Within -> Expiacion? Yeah I get that. I dunno why they'd put 2 spells that work off of the exact same resource 2 levels apart and just make them a ST/AoE split.Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNovel
Maybe give Shoha earlier on and make Shoha 2 an upgrade that's just "and X% less for all remaining enemies"? What is it, 560 and 200 pot? So Shoha: 560 -> Shoha 2: 560 and 65% less...
If SAM wasn't so bloated for buttons, id just say give them a bigger gap between getting them, but well. SAM. Y'know.
I would say that WAR and Orogeny is the same issue and could use the same treatment, but WAR ain't a job suffering from button bloat, so they get a pass. -
08-05-2023, 02:24 PMEngaruThey could (and probably should) just fuse all the ST/AoE abilities that share the same resource/CD, it'd do wonders for button bloat, which they seem so worried about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Experiment_X4d2
Though, they also seem hell-bent on reintroducing abilities they removed or incorporated into other abilities before. Like with how Dragoons Disembowel gives you a damage buff but before that it was a separate skill, and then reaper comes along with Shadow of Death and Whirl of Death, TWO abilities that do the exact same thing, except one is ST and the other is AoE, and it's basically the same ability that they got rid of/merged with Dragoon.
Sometimes the inconsistency in their design choices is what gets me the most... -
08-05-2023, 09:35 PMJonnycbad
Shoha II is a bad name. It's not what it's called in Japanese.
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08-07-2023, 03:20 PMCelestiCerBoth Senei at Lv72 and Shoha II at Lv80 were introduced in Shadowbringers yes. So like you said? it wasn't always this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuuZero
They added true bloat by doing so ( unlike Hissatsu: Kaiten.... ) because they just felt like they needed to add something to go with the at the time new expansion, that truly didn't add any value? unless mechanics revolved around heavy decision making between Single target or not... which there aren't any meaningful examples wroht naming. Not even from Ultimate and even you can find good examples? you can just hold your 3 meditation stacks and spend it at a better timing...
Shoha I and II merging as an Conal attack with fall off damage after first hit? is just a way better option. As you have to think more about your positioning to deal damage ( Kinda like pre-lobotomized Tenka Goken ) while simultaneously catering to all Non-Samurai-main numbskulls who can't seem to navigate through the sheer unplayable Bloat we have ( lol? ) by merging Senei/Guren - Shoha I/Shoha II - Ikishoten/Ogi-Namikiri, making room for something better, new or heck? Reintroducing " Hissatsu: Kaiten ".
Name 1 piece of content... where casting Shoha I over Shoha II or vice versa is detrimental to you or the party/raid you're part of or a mechanic. There is no mechanic worth mentioning to argue about this... FFXIV is simplistic, its all about pumping damage - that's it. Even P3S bird adds isn't worth noting for this... -
08-07-2023, 04:03 PMShurrikhanFrom what period to what period?Quote:
Originally Posted by Elissar
Stormblood MCH was a more interesting design than Shadowbringers MCH. Heavensward and Stormblood DRK were more interesting than any version since. And the changes to both had exceptionally little to do with feedback, unless that listening were part of some challenge "How can we meet some decontextualized letter of parts of these requests while purposely ignoring or inverting the spirit of the requests as a whole?"