I know there other topics on this but I wanted to post my own, this is not a complaint or anything and I love sage but I was hoping a few lil tweaks.
Zoe= we get this pretty early but its 120 seconds cd and t lvl 88 trait, please reduce cool down to 60 seconds overall and get rid of the trait.
Soteria =This is ok...but yet so niche yes you can combine it with krasis and use it to top up your tank good via dosis/dyskrasis but uh idk a rework to do something else maybe more with toxicon or make kardia effects aoe for a short while.
Krasis= I feel in love with this and underestimated it do to its poor wording until I find out it works for anything including panhamia and hamia but it be nice to have it at lower level at 60 should not be bad. When combine with zoe and physis which is a whooping 80% increase in a heal spell for sage good lord that crit E diag is crazy, atm my hp is 66k and if i get a crit thats 26k pot shield=covering my hp fully or dps hp or half of a tank one lol.
E Prog = lower its barrier migi and increase its potency.. I almost never wanna use this unless its maybe low lvl dungeon which its then fine or a zoe/physis/kraisis combo, too much requirement to try to get to give a chunky shield unlike E diag that using just physis or zoe or krasis alone is enough and you really dont have to use all 3 for E diag.
Toxicon=its nice its cool its good for mobility to use in boss fights in hard content like savages and ultimates when you gotta be on constant move but spamming E diag is not a proper design or least give the pvp version where you can sling all 3 in one go instead of having a delay per cast or total rework as others mention.
Pepsis=Rubbish 0 use for 50 extra potency if its a E prog shield and am not gonna break a E diag big shield period. May as well just use gcd diagnosis which I dont do unless its very low lvl dungeon. Rework it to spread E diag crit shields cause it really is abit hurting seeing that chunky E dig on someone but cannot spread it.
Haima Panhamia and Holos =reduce cool downs to 90 seconds, I was gonna say 60 but that would honestly be Op for how useful these abilities are.
Rhizomata= Mixed on this one most of the times I may not need it unless its really bad and it depends on content. The only change I can say instead of giving an addergalls, give us a full stock of addersting which can really give sage more dps output.
Incarus= love I got my wish of gap closer as a healer but its so janky in terms of the leap, its very delayed and short ranged. You can use it on enemy or party member, if using it on a enemy maybe give it a effect it does small 10 second dot like a slow or remove it period from jumping to an enemy. Let it be like blms which is way more user friendly please.
Overall whether I get these changes or not I love this job giving me a feel of old noct ast and it has no really downsides imo and is not punished if it dies since kardia stays on and addergall still goes up.
Slight Sage Changes
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06-16-2023, 11:04 PMIceBlueNinjaSlight Sage Changes
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06-17-2023, 11:31 PMAllegor
Overall the job is 'ok' to me, a few personal nitpicks aside. At the very least I'd like more focus on the damage-to-heal identity (a pipe dream with the current job/role design, I know) and an aoe Kardia - and for the love of Zodiark do not make it a 90+ ability, we should've had it from the start ffs
PS: when I mean 'ok' I don't mean I like it just how it is, I mean I'd rather keep SCH 2.0 because I don't trust the devs anymore and we may end up with something worse than SB WHM -
06-18-2023, 08:46 AMForsakenRoe
Kardia probably should have been AOE from the start, with Soteria being 'cancels the AOE effect, and focuses all of the healing on one person, at a loss'. So if you imagine, for example, Kardia is 50p per person, and Soteria makes it focused to be 250p per hit but on one person, you're effectively 'losing' 150p as the price for focusing the healing onto one person
It'd also make Kardia feel different from Embrace, in that Embrace is ST only (and can be 'amped into ST but stronger' with Union), but Kardia is AOE, and can be made ST with a price -
06-18-2023, 12:08 PMRein_eon_Osborne
I feel like Pepsis should be something entirely different. Prognosis alone already cover the "when I need to Medica I spam"-situation. Why double down on making SCH and SGE even more similar than they already are?
AoE Kardia/Pankardia would be awesome. The freed up slot at lv56 where you learn pepsis can also be replaced by something that interacts further with Kardion system. :hopium:
I wish we can use more of Icarus. Y'know, something like "using addergall abilities reduces Icarus cooldown by X seconds." -
06-19-2023, 01:27 AMKatish
I can already outheal and out damage the pure healers (save astro) where it actually matters on ogcds alone, at this point not sure why someone would bring a whm (we already have no healer runs to begin with). Maybe we should address that issue first lel before adding more healing options on a supposed shield healer.
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06-19-2023, 04:49 AMRenathras
We get Zoe early, but the main use comes late, and the CD and no charges is too long to use it freely. You have to pair it with specific things, which kind of blunts its flexibility and how it might feel.
Soteria feels...weak somehow. Not in the potency, but just in the use cases. Most of the time, I don't need more Tank healing, and when I do, I have Durochole or Taurochole.
Krasis is such a hot garbage ability. Because SGE doesn't spread shields, making a super strong shield on one person is rarely needed. Moreover - and this isn't just a Krasis issue with me, I feel the same about Protraction - we already have SO MUCH HEALING on Healers that it's kind of overkill to boost that even more. No matter the Healer, I can have a >100k HP tank from 1 HP to max within two GCDs. And abilities like Krasis don't help because they don't do that in 1 GCD (meaning I still have to use a second to get there). To put it another way, suppose I have heals that would do 50% health each. Two of those fully restores the target. But I can boost them by 20%. Okay, so the first one gets me 60% and the second 120%. The first didn't help if the target needs to be healed for more than 60% within a single GCD, and it doesn't help with the second because it just overheals when I could already fully heal the person within two GCDs anyway. There just isn't a huge need for "increases healing by X%" with our kits being so ridiculously powerful vs health pools at the moment anyway. And where there IS, it usually is because we need AOE healing, in which case Krasis' (and Protraction's) single target effect isn't very useful. If I need to keep someone alive who just got raised, say, I'm going to EuDiagnosis them along with slapping a Durochole or Taurochole on them so they survive the mechanic. Krasis just isn't that helpful. Protraction CAN get a pass entirely because of Deploy, but SGE doesn't have that functionality.
I disagree on EuPrognosis. In fact, I'd go the other way - make SGE lean more heavily into shields. SGE frankly does an ABSURD amount of healing for a "barrier" Healer with all the mitigation it has on top of that. SGE can debatably outheal WHM in some situations, which is ridiculous since that's WHM's entire thing. It doesn't need more raw healing. It's already better on the GCD front than SCH since it has a Medica 1 and SCH has to burn an Emergency Tactics to replicate something akin to that, and it costs them more MP to do so. They also have to devote a second hotbar slot to Physic if they want that for single target. SGE is already too much, not too little, on the raw healing front.
Toxicon should be damage neutral. That's all. At the very least, it should be close-ish, like Plegma.
Pepsis is nice, but niche. It allows extreme efficiency when used properly, but it can be difficult to do. With Pepsis, you can shield someone, let ALMOST all the shield be absorbed, then get a full heal as if the shield hadn't been. Contrast SCH's Emergency Tactics, which does not let you double dip on having your shield and eating your heal, too, to butcher the cake analogy.
Hamia, Panhamia, and Holos are EXTREMELY powerful abilities. They arguably should have longer CDs, not shorter ones... <_<
Rhizo's main change should honestly be to give one stack of both Addersgall and Addersting. That'd give SGE a semi-reliable way of generating Toxicons (especially if SE continues to insist that Toxicon shouldn't be damage neutral), and the Addersgall is honestly useful sometimes.
Icarus is amazing - and no other Healer has one. People keep demanding more for it, failing to realize that it's already miles better from having none at all.
SGE is honestly pretty strong. I'm with the other people that really want an AOE Kardia on a short CD. Like imagine Synastry, but it's for the whole party and for Kardia.
Wouldn't this be a bit TOO much healing from SGE passively? It might be okay, but they'd need to have their oGCD healing toned down to factor in what is effectively a free and 100% uptime Whispering Dawn.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
I know people love movement, but SGE is already the absolute most mobile Healer by quite a large margin between Plegma (potentially x2), Toxicon (potentially x3), and Icarus. I don't think it'd be particularly fair to the other Healers for Icarus to get EVEN BETTER. You're asking to have your wax wings melt with such requests...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne
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06-19-2023, 05:27 AMForsakenRoeI figure it'd be fine, because to get that aoe healing you're not getting the focused healing of current Kardia (only when you Soteria), and the majority of damage in fights comes from tanks getting autoattacked. We can already deal with all of the damage to the party using the current kit so AOE Kardia probably wouldn't unbalance anything, and if it does, change the potency values on it. If anything, this would make the focus of 'how does SGE deal with autoattack chip damage' move more towards Haima, rather than 'it naturally solves itself because Kardia' which is probably more thematicQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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06-19-2023, 05:50 AMty_taurusI'm with Ren on this one actually. I don't need lots of unnecessary overhealing passively generated from my DPS. You can argue this is true for current Kardia anyway, but at least it generally combats auto-attack damage to some amount. With the AoE version, even a savage environment, that's probably 300-350 potency worth of overhealing you're generating every GCD anytime the party is healthy. I do want to introduce AoE Kardia healing, but I'd rather it be a choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
It actually makes me wonder if Dosis should not provide any Kardia healing, but maybe restores 1% of your MP, or just have no MP cost, and make a second attack with a higher MP cost, like 800, that is your attack made for Kardia healing. Or something like that. -
06-19-2023, 06:26 AMForsakenRoe
Yeh, I can see that (constant overheal) being a 'feels off' designwise. I guess I got caught up in trying to work out how to make 'always active AOE Kardia' balanced in numbers, to try and set SCH's Embrace and it apart in design space. Maybe 'SCH applies it as healing, SGE applies it as layered shielding ala Haima' would be a better way to do the distinction. It surely wouldn't cause issues re: 'get everyone to full HP' checks, if Kardia was changed to apply shielding instead right? Maybe it would, I don't know anymore
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06-19-2023, 05:22 PMEusisLandaleQuite frankly, even with the trait, it currently still technically has a 120 second CD because why use it on anything but Pneuma? Even at 60 seconds you're still likely to just sit on it until Pneuma is up just to avoid desyncing them. Getting charges would help this skill more than CD adjustments, as you could then occasionally justify using it on Eukrasian Diagnosis/Prognosis.Quote:
Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja
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06-19-2023, 05:57 PMAravell
I mostly agree with most of the changes asked for here, like AoE Kardia would be neat, Krasis is also kind of underwhelming and is most usually used as another Soteria for strengthening Kardia heals on the tank.
But one thing I absolutely disagree with is damage neutral Toxikon. If you make Toxikon damage neutral, you'd trivialise tank healing much more than it already is. You'd do just as much damage keeping 100% uptime of Eukrasian Diagnosis on the tank as long as you don't overlap it before it breaks. That's like saying that for SCH, if your Adlo breaks, your next Broil IV will do 590 potency and be instant cast. It'll completely break any semblance of healer balance and make SGE the objectively best choice for everything except log runs. Not to mention you'd get 3 x 660 potency hits for every burst window, which would make SGE the undisputed king of damage from the healer role. It would basically be griefing to not lock 1 slot to SGE in regular PF.
However, if you bump up Toxikon to be less of a damage loss, that's completely reasonable. Losing 330 potency for using your movement tool is too much, considering SCH only loses 75 potency if Ruin II is needed. -
06-19-2023, 06:17 PMty_taurusWe could also make Toxikon not a glorified mobility button and make it actually something interesting and worth generating, but I know I'm a big meanie for suggesting something so transformative on a tool commonly considered inoffensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
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06-19-2023, 06:22 PMAravellI'm inclined to agree that Toxikon could be a unique button, given that SGE does not really need a Ruin II equivalent (but worse). I'm not against the idea of changing it at all, I'm only against the idea of just lazily making it damage neutral just because Afflatus Misery is damage neutral.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
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06-19-2023, 06:47 PMty_taurusFor clarity, I wasn't specifically trying to call you out or anything, just that I've been met with resistance to changing Toxikon in the past because "It's fine the way it is, we just need Rhizomata to grant 1 Addersting and BAM! Perfect game design."Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
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06-19-2023, 07:04 PMForsakenRoeAnd that's why I went for 'Breaking Diagnosis/Prognosis shields in any way (so yes Pepsis, but not timing out) grants {buff name}, allowing one use of Phlegma without cost or regard to it's cooldown. If Phlegma is already ready, the cooldown is consumed before the buff (alignment reasons)'. This way, it's a 60p loss to do it, but it can maybe be made up for with raidbuffs (ala pooling a Dark Arts on DRK for the 2min), and it gives you the opportunity to get two GCDs for mobility for that price (one being the shield, one being the Phlegma refunded). I agree that having it be 100% damage refunded (or worse, more as with Misery-in-raidbuffs gameplay) is not great, because then the gameplay becomes 'constantly put up Diagnosis shields on tank, then Toxicon on every other GCD', as if tank survivability needed any help. Rather, I'd like to think that the opportunity cost I have here, of 60p, is small enough to make 'sac some damage for safety' not be a moral dilemma for people, and yet big enough to make people think twice about spamming shields carelesslyQuote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
And ofc, this also frees up Toxicon to be something more than 'scuffed Ruin 2'. My solution for that would take too long to explain, being as I reworked Addersting into a 0-100 gauge and etc. Needless to say, regardless of opinions on what I'd do to it, Toxicon right now is just underwhelming as a skill. A mobility option that only lets you have 3 uses unless you restore some by losing damage. A 'damage refund' that refunds only 50%. It's just weird, and honestly just feels to me like they went 'SCH has Ruin 2, how do we make Ruin 2, again, but with a twist so it's different' -
06-19-2023, 07:19 PMAravellOh don't worry, I assumed you weren't targetting that at me because I've never called you a meanie or any such things.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
I'm not much of a theorycrafter, but an idea off the top of my head is to make Rhizomata also grant an addersting, which allows the use of Toxikon, and then Toxikon will buff the next Phlegma to, say, 750 potency, and you can hold 2 charges of Toxikon. This will turn it into a soft combo of sorts, allowing you to stock for a burst window as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
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06-19-2023, 07:45 PMty_taurus
The reason why I think Addersting on Rhizomata is a big mistake is because now you have pressure to use Rhizomata on cooldown even if you don't need or can't even use the Addersgall gain. Even if Addersting is only DPS neutral, simply having more charges of mobility offers the potential for better DPS uptime. In essenence, we create a softer version of the Assize problem where you need to hope the stars align in order for the Addersgall charge to come in handy, or simply just burn extra Addersgall on nothing for a little extra MP.
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06-19-2023, 11:08 PMIceBlueNinjaFair enough though call me wierd but I do use it on e diag/prog for some meaty shields, good as pneuma is I honestly confess I rarely seem to have reason to use it unless in very intense moments and even without zoe on it 600 pot is a solid heal. Usually Keracole/physis 2/Ixochole is already doing enough healing to top up the entire party. Honestly sometimes sage feel like more a pure healer than a shield one(which I was hoping they honestly do and let ast kept noct stance) for how powerful its heal kit is and with no downsides to boot.Quote:
Originally Posted by EusisLandale
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06-20-2023, 01:36 PMAravellI agree that the Assize issue is a longstanding problem. But as the kit currently is, there really isn't much they can do with Toxikon. Regarding Rhizomata, even in savage content, I often find myself overcapping addersgall already, so I agree that Rhizomata generating addersting would be a problem. The whole system could use a change, honestly.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
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06-20-2023, 02:32 PMty_taurusI can think of a few different minor solutions that would make Toxikon less of a complete failure and more of an actually useful and interesting tool without making any sweeping changes to Sage, though I would like to see Sage return to the drawing board and have them actually go through with creating a healer designed for the players who want a DPS-heavy healer like it was originally pitched as.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
1. Increase the potency of Toxikon II to something higher than 330 but lower than 660--let's stay 550--and give it a 15 second cooldown so you aren't just storing and dumping 3 uses every buff window. It doesn't make GCD barriers desirable, but at least now you're actually getting some amount of a refund when you do use them. Then, replace the Kardia healing from Eukrasian Dosis with a small barrier, and when that barrier breaks, you also generate 1 Addersting. You can also add the concept someone else mentioned about Pepsis popping barriers also granting you Addersting that way, and make Pepsis also effect the Eukrasian Dosis Kardia barrier. You get 1 free Addersting every 30 seconds.
2. Separate Toxikon from Toxikon II and make both OGCD actions. Both have the same potency, something lower than 330 like 220 for example. Toxikon II has a 20 second cooldown and requires Addersting, which can be gained through GCD barriers (same situation as explained above technically). Regular Toxikon on the other hand has 2 charges and a 20 second cooldown or something like that. Each use of Toxikon has a 50% chance of proccing Addersting.
Both of these require very little effort and use resources that already exist and could very easily have been done at any point during EW. Both accomplish making Sage a more offensive healer like what is apparently the goal of the job, and succeed at making Addersting an at least a mildly interesting resource. -
06-20-2023, 03:07 PMAravellI like the first idea, it seems fair and stopping people from dumping all of it in the burst window is a good thing. The barrier from Eukrasian Dosis would be nice, since it functions that way in PvP. It also puts the damage loss closer in line to what SCH loses for using Ruin II. As for the 2nd idea, I'd have no objection to it, reducing the potency of Toxikon would mean you only have 1100 potency across 5 GCDs minimum and 1540 across 7 GCDs at maximum to dump in burst windows assuming we still can stock 3 adderstings in this scenario, it would also have the side effect of making SGE more active, which is a welcome addition.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
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06-20-2023, 05:49 PMAnotherPersonI prefer the latter. Separating Toxikon I and Toxikon II so Toxikon I is on the GCD, 2 charges, 20 second cooldown, but same potency as Dosis keeps its initial use as a weave tool. Toxikon II would be the oGCD that has a 10 second cooldown and requires addersting to activate.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
I would put one more caveat to Toxikon II if this is the only addersting skill: Consumes all existing addersting charges upon execution, each charge adding an additional strike to the attack. Activates Kardion to each strike. Unaffected by damage modifiers.
The additional caveat creates a strength to saving up Toxikon II charges for a strong burst heal through Kardia based on how many charges you want to save up, and the unaffected by damage modifiers prevent any issue with only using it during a buff window. Now there's a consistent rewarding play-loop to using Kardia as a healing tool while feeling like a DPS healer without feeling the need to dump it within a burst window for optimal dps. -
06-20-2023, 07:08 PMTheDustyOne
If I was to do changes to Toxikon as it is now, I'd either: make it oGCD with no change in potency, or keep it GCD and double its current potency. I'd then give it a 15-20s cooldown so as to prevent spamming it during burst windows.
Relatively simple, makes shielding more rewarding, and doesn't reward spamming heals. -
06-20-2023, 07:35 PMForsakenRoe
Problem with making Tox OGCD is that it removes SGE's mobility tool. As bad as it is having 'scuffed ruin 2', the alternative that changing it to OGCD would bring is 'no ruin 2 at all', and we'd be as immobile as AST. At least WHM can use Lilies for movement, kinda
and doubling it's potency raises the crit variance of the skill. 660 is quite a lot of potency, we can already see the swing on a Phlegma going between a regular hit of like 26k, and a Dhit Crit of like 50k or even higher -
06-20-2023, 07:38 PMTheDustyOne
Fair points, although you could technically then make Eukrasia heals be the "I need to move" buttons, as clunky as that sounds, since they are instant cast.
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06-21-2023, 02:32 AMty_taurusMake Dyskrasia ranged, deal 330 potency to the first target and 40% less than all remaining targets, and cost 1000 MP, but if you hit 2 or more enemies, refunds 50% of the cost. FixedQuote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
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06-21-2023, 02:51 AMIceBlueNinja
Have to say though with what they did ast/sch as much as I want the sages change I just honestly have low expectations and fear they may only harm the job more than tweak it abit. We finally see much needed improve on whm, not the best ofc but its something of a start.. whew.