So the 6.4 PvP FL changes....

...look really good, I'm looking forward to it, lots of really great decisions and I'm pretty positive about the future :)

Summary of changes:

WAR & DRK = -10% Damage Dealt
SCH = +10% Damage Dealt
Tank/Melee = +10% Damage Taken
BRD/MCH/BLM/SMN/All Heals = +5% Damage Taken
DNC/RDM = -5% Damage Taken
DRG/SAM/DNC/WHM = +15s to charge LB
BRD = -15s to charge LB

All Stuns, Heavys, Binds, Silence, Sleep, and Deep freeze = -25% duration
Limp = Now simply dismounts and prevents remounting for 5s
Invuln from Base now also protects you from being crowd controlled

Seal Rock = -100 points to win
Onsal = -200 points to win
Shatter = +400 points to win, Capture points removed, Lots of ice changes

Will these changes affect the current FL meta?

You will probably see more SCH being played and topping the damage dealt category (still with 0 kills, but eh - when you can do 4m+ damage in a match, who cares about KB's right?).

You're going to want at least 1 BRD in each party to reduce that LB timer, if you didn't have one already
EDIT:(I'd like to make it a point that if you are on DRG/SAM/DNC/WHM - you will probably barely notice any change to your limit breaks being 'nerfed' - since your bards will be using their LB charge more often to compensate. And if nothing else, this change will also act as a Buff to all other jobs' LB charge times as well.

DRK Salted still going to be problematic, even if you nerfed their damage by 50%. Which they didn't. But hey, at least the BH5 kill squads will win a little bit faster in Seal Rock and Onsal now - so that's something at least.

War -10% dmg in fl .... just why?
War dmg is fine in fl, at least remove the hp cost then for fl aswell.

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

War -10% dmg in fl .... just why?
War dmg is fine in fl, at least remove the hp cost then for fl aswell.

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Yea, I'm pretty confused on this one as well. WAR didn't seem strong enough to warrant a nerf to their damage, and RDM didn't seem flimsy enough to constitute them needing 10% more damage reduction then their casting counterparts. (Dancer completely makes sense though. I would have just straight up changed NIN's DR to that of a ranged job, and DNC's to that of a Melee job. But that's just me.)

Am really not sure why they changed the scores like they did, unless we move faster on those maps a comeback is even less likely.

The change to limp = dismount is well overdue, sure you never want to be in that situation, but who hasn't had server tick screw them with that? Also bards yet again having it easy with the LB buff, I'm gonna need a old bard walking stick one day. :P

In a vacuum this still overall seems rather middling or at least mildly net positive, the thing I'm most focused on is the crowd control change, it isn't really addressing the core issue but it's still something that might get a small amount of mileage, we'll have to see. If some crowd control effects can still be spammed without care, I'd expect to see things being more the same.

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

War -10% dmg in fl .... just why?
War dmg is fine in fl, at least remove the hp cost then for fl aswell.

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Likely to filter out the large number of Unga Bungas on the field. Meme aside, I don't think it'll impact Warrior too hard, they operate best with support, debuffing and displacing enemies, and the slight adjustment in damage reduction makes it closer to net neutral when combined with all the other damage sources.

Biggest winner of the listed classes seems to be Scholar, with their own baseline returning to net neutral before buffs, with battle high this could get out of control like it did at rework launch, but we'll have to see what else is different to truly gauge that.

I'm happy DNC get 35% DR but why the hell they have to increase their LB timer? :(

Also SGE don't have same DR with DNC and RDM but instead more squishy... Can't even use Phlegma anymore...

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Originally Posted by Rexxus

DRK Salted still going to be problematic, even if you nerfed their damage by 50%. Which they didn't. But hey, at least the BH5 kill squads will win a little bit faster in Seal Rock and Onsal now - so that's something at least.

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The damage isn't the problem, it's the massive pull-in.

Until animation locks for certain actions/effects (such as the pull-in, which has 0.5 secs) are entirely removed or disregarded for PvP then this will always be a problem. Otherwise all what they did was make melees and tanks 10% less tankier lol. (Still not solving the main problem)

Miracle Of Nature is still in the game unfortunate.

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Originally Posted by ptown2

The damage isn't the problem, it's the massive pull-in.

Until animation locks for certain actions/effects (such as the pull-in, which has 0.5 secs) are entirely removed or disregarded for PvP then this will always be a problem. Otherwise all what they did was make melees and tanks 10% less tankier lol. (Still not solving the main problem)

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Absolutely correct.

Without changing the way salted works, the meta won't be changed in the slightest.

And if anything, the DR changes have less of an impact on DRK since they spend a percentage of the match unkillable anyway(as does PLD).

Laughing at how they keep ignoring living dead and salted being drk actual issues.

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Originally Posted by Knot_D

I'm happy DNC get 35% DR but why the hell they have to increase their LB timer? :(

Also SGE don't have same DR with DNC and RDM but instead more squishy... Can't even use Phlegma anymore...

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Just another patch where they completely forget about Sage.

I think they realized the problems with Secure if they thought there was a need to reduce the points needed to win on Seal Rock and Onsal Hakair. I just wish it didn't take this long for them to do anything.

The problem has been there for Secure ever since they added respawn invincility with 4.56. While it didn't affect the other maps that much, it more or less ruined the intended match flow on Secure due to how close three of the six bases are to the spawn points.

Honestly a lot of the problems with job specific abilities come from over population of those jobs in a single team. Getting ping ponged by 5-8 DRK on a 24 man team with no Diminishing Returns blocking the draw in spam and complete loss of control feels bad. I don't think most of these changes really change anything. I welcome any nerf to WHM but am disappointed at the complete overlooking of MON once again. all in all the lowered defense on melee and tanks should be a good thing. Why are they messing with WAR though?

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

War -10% dmg in fl .... just why?
War dmg is fine in fl, at least remove the hp cost then for fl aswell.

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Everyone's incoming damage was also basically increased by 10%, so they basically just made it a net neutral change.

Wasn't holding my breath for much of anything for the specific Frontlines damage modifiers with the dev's track record, but now that I've seen them- ehh, it's a start.

-SCH's damage nerf being reverted was overdue. They erroneously got lumped in with SMN and WHM's 10% damage nerfs (their "solution" to their LBs getting stacked). The fabled "12 SCH DoTs killing entire teams before they can elixir" has nothing on 3+ DRKS coordinating draw-ins.

-DRK's new 10% damage reduction is a misplaced bandaid on the actual issue. Sooo... I guess their LBs will hurt less? It looks like WAR got the SCH treatment where they had to get caught in the nerf because reasons. I'm assuming the devs would try and justify it with something about their HP-siphoning skills being too good in large crowds or some jazz...

-Melees and tanks losing 10% of their current defense modifier is a start. A few of the melee DPS like NIN probably could have stood to lose 5-10% more. However, also increasing most ranged DPS' damage taken by 5% seems to almost negate the whole point.

-DNC and RDM getting a 5% defense modifier seems overdue. I also don't know how big of a difference it'll make, but with the other ranged jobs getting their defense nerfed, this at least puts them a cut above the rest. lolSGE.

- I understand the +15 seconds to DRG, SAM and WHM (especially WHM), but DNC's LB being affected is a mystery so far. Unless their new 5% damage reduction is expected to make a huge difference, their LB is one of the best opportunities to take out a DNC, and shouldn't be used carelessly anyway.

- The duration of the general CCs being reduced by 25% makes me raise an eyebrow. Like, I understand a second being shaved-off of CCs that last 4 seconds (not very many), but can you even have a debuff that lasts a fraction of a second? Is a 2 second stun now going to only last a second and a half? (can they do that?) I don't think I ever seen or noticed a buff or debuff active for any amount of time that wasn't a whole number.

-Mount debuff nerf is good for the people who have no sense of awareness of their surroundings, I guess? Just eliminates punishing people stupid enough to be/get on their mount with enemies nearby.

- I guess Frontlines matches will be quicker in general with Onsal and Seize getting point caps lowered. I'm assuming the accumulation of points from ice in the new Shatter map will be fast enough to justify the higher point cap.

-Good riddance, Secure.

Overall good, but without job changes we lack context. WAR definitely didn't need a damage nerf, for example, but did they have their DPS increased at a base level? I can't say. Likewise, I don't like the crowd control changes. I don't think they should be shorter in small battles; it's chaining cc in big fights people don't like. The 10 second immunity from pre 6.1 addressed this. Did some of the egregious actors get nerfed?

With-holding comments. I will say, hope instant kill moves are addressed in the full notes

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Originally Posted by Cidel

- I understand the +15 seconds to DRG, SAM and WHM (especially WHM), but DNC's LB being affected is a mystery so far. Unless their new 5% damage reduction is expected to make a huge difference, their LB is one of the best opportunities to take out a DNC, and shouldn't be used carelessly anyway.

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Because it's a Draw-In. The better question is why other Draw-In's aren't affected.

The mount change is effective because first, you can't see everywhere all at once, no matter how good you are, and there are people with attacks that make it much, much harder to take advantage of sudden stun/heavy hits on people that are on mounts. It's not a 'git gud' issue as much as you think, unless your FL environment is much less aggressive.

I see we are still ignoring MCH. If nothing else, can we please get rid of the 'you don't interrupt by moving and here's a cast time' issue?

Miracles of Nature is still in the game and there's no counter to it so to me this update means nill. Any skills (that's at least not a LB) that takes control away from you and can't be cleanse doesn't belong imo.

Oh yeah insta kill moves...insta kill moves.

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Originally Posted by BaroLlyonesse

The mount change is effective because first, you can't see everywhere all at once, no matter how good you are, and there are people with attacks that make it much, much harder to take advantage of sudden stun/heavy hits on people that are on mounts. It's not a 'git gud' issue as much as you think, unless your FL environment is much less aggressive.

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If you got mount slowed often in fl, you do need to git gud, I never have it happen to me because map exists and I sprint whenever I'm near enemies instead, that change is 100% skill issue based.

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

If you got mount slowed often in fl, you do need to git gud, I never have it happen to me because map exists and I sprint whenever I'm near enemies instead, that change is 100% skill issue based.

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I don't think you know what 100% really means. Correct me if I'm wrong but the map doesn't always show 100% where peope are. Not to mention situations where running may not be the fastest/best way to get out of an area/fight.

There's some nusance there for it to not "100%" be a skill issue. Just because you personally may not have these encounters doesn't mean others don't nor does it mean they're bad players.

You have a map, if you see half a team missing, don't run around by yourself to be caught, and if you aren't sure, use sprint.

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

If you got mount slowed often in fl, you do need to git gud, I never have it happen to me because map exists and I sprint whenever I'm near enemies instead, that change is 100% skill issue based.

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I dunno, I get limped all the time. Usually when riding into combat, and the dismounting to engage, and then I get a Limp a second or two after I start moving for a server 'correction' that I clearly didn't deserve on my screen.

So if there is a 2s stun, it will be 1,5s now? Didn't know cc effects can be a non natural number

Good to hear. I've been saying for a while now that Limp needs to be changed. Also quicker games is better.

everything sounds good but nerfing warrior seems a bit odd to me...

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Originally Posted by BaroLlyonesse

Because it's a Draw-In. The better question is why other Draw-In's aren't affected.

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Because they aren't a LB, I'm guessing. DNC's "draw-in" isn't as instantaneous and potent as WAR or DRK's. DNC's LB has a long start-up (long enough to escape to the fringes of it, or even kill the DNC, even if you were snapshotted and are affected by it a couple seconds later), and requires an immediate follow-up attack to prolong it to be more than a nuisance. It is high-risk for oftentimes low-to-middling reward without an incredibly coordinated team. And twelve help you if you can count the total number of melee DPS in your team on one hand. I'm not exactly complaining about the longer DNC LB charge though; any DNC worth their salt in Frontlines should be sitting on it for the "right time" to use it and not trying to force-use it whenever the LB gauge is full anyway- those are the DNCs that usually constantly die all game.

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Originally Posted by BaroLlyonesse

The mount change is effective because first, you can't see everywhere all at once, no matter how good you are, and there are people with attacks that make it much, much harder to take advantage of sudden stun/heavy hits on people that are on mounts. It's not a 'git gud' issue as much as you think, unless your FL environment is much less aggressive.

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First, you don't have to see everywhere all at once, just be able to move your camera enough to see nobody from another team is within a ranged attack to glaze you. It absolutely is a "git gud" issue; I just about never see people with Battle High 4-5 getting caught on their mounts and afflicted with Limp, because they have the sense to know how to stay alive. So it's no surprise that this is an issue for people without the sense enough to not mount up if there are enemies nearby or you are approaching ranged-striking distance of someone. Just got out of a Shatter match where an enemy MCH decided to get greedy and try to come after a small ice closer to our team, but for whatever reason, did not dismount before getting too close and I was all to happy to tag him to be dogpiled on. People like that are the easiest of free kills. But then again, this really only pertains to the mindless fodder Battle High 0-1 folks that have basic survival issues anyway. Limp was basically a "caught with your pants down" dubuff.

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Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

So if there is a 2s stun, it will be 1,5s now? Didn't know cc effects can be a non natural number

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yeah ngl it seems like they REALLY dont wanna bring back diminishing returns for CC effects because if they did that.... oh geez it would be like admitting they were wrong about something and you know how badly that wounds JP pride....

The changes are a mixed bag. Not what I was hoping for, and definetely aren't changing the Frontlines meta people have been complaining about for ages. But at least its one step in the right direction? At least they're getting rid of Borderland ruins, Nobody is shedding tears for that PvE map.

Warrior 10% damage nerf though. WTF?! As if Warriors were causing chaos in frontlines. I was hoping for the AOE affect on salted to be significantly reduced. Guess I'll have to cry about it on the forums until 6.5 when they pay attention to us again.

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Originally Posted by Cidel

Because they aren't a LB, I'm guessing. DNC's "draw-in" isn't as instantaneous and potent as WAR or DRK's. DNC's LB has a long start-up (long enough to escape to the fringes of it, or even kill the DNC, even if you were snapshotted and are affected by it a couple seconds later), and requires an immediate follow-up attack to prolong it to be more than a nuisance. It is high-risk for oftentimes low-to-middling reward without an incredibly coordinated team. And twelve help you if you can count the total number of melee DPS in your team on one hand. I'm not exactly complaining about the longer DNC LB charge though; any DNC worth their salt in Frontlines should be sitting on it for the "right time" to use it and not trying to force-use it whenever the LB gauge is full anyway- those are the DNCs that usually constantly die all game.



First, you don't have to see everywhere all at once, just be able to move your camera enough to see nobody from another team is within a ranged attack to glaze you. It absolutely is a "git gud" issue; I just about never see people with Battle High 4-5 getting caught on their mounts and afflicted with Limp, because they have the sense to know how to stay alive. So it's no surprise that this is an issue for people without the sense enough to not mount up if there are enemies nearby or you are approaching ranged-striking distance of someone. Just got out of a Shatter match where an enemy MCH decided to get greedy and try to come after a small ice closer to our team, but for whatever reason, did not dismount before getting too close and I was all to happy to tag him to be dogpiled on. People like that are the easiest of free kills. But then again, this really only pertains to the mindless fodder Battle High 0-1 folks that have basic survival issues anyway. Limp was basically a "caught with your pants down" dubuff.

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Idk. I don't think an LB that's low reward more often than not should have to take longer to charge imo. Considering they (the devs) don't really encourage full team play expecting people to pay attention and make use of said LB isn't to wise. No to mention the insane start up time making you a sitting duck. I'd be fine with that if activation gave some damage reduction to the dnc or something.

Salted Earth.

Unbreakable pull/cc even with purify buff up.

Has no DR.

???

Squeenix are you still here?

this pvp patch is so effin absurd.

Balance is around CC. No one cares about a mode with 72 players where its literally impossible to balance things. Play it for what it is, a pointless mass zerg mode that is more pve than pvp that people only participate in for the exp. If you want actual pvp come play CC.

just devs tryna push CC, not big shocker really. i really wish they would drop CC and FL to work on RW instead.

I just want the devs to mash the braincells they have between them together and make a single competent change to PvP that makes it more enjoyable.

just prelim patches
so might see changes to kits Tomorrow

But I am very sick of the DRK meta tho
>Lone DRK sprints towards the group
I just roll my eyes,
I'd really love to see salted earth only succ one target not be an AOE succ,Also the ability to pre pop purify to gain immunity would be nice aswell.

Some good changes, but the limp one is very much there to alleviate frustration newbies might feel from getting caught while mounted. And they most certainly forgot that sages have phlegma and needed that dmg reduction buff too.

Do we know if they plan to return Borderland Ruins or is it gonna stay perma-locked like Astragalos?

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Bard's LB takes 15 seconds less to fill.

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Not going to complain about that. So wheres the monkey's paw drawback?

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Bard goes from 30% to 25% damage reduction

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Thats not so bad, the job always felt like it was made out of paper anyway and always safer to play from a mid to long range anyway unless hunting someone specific.

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Oh and btw, your silent nocturne's silence and repelling shot's bind have their durations reduced from 3s to 2.25s.

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Ah yes, there is the drawback.

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Originally Posted by Rehayem

Do we know if they plan to return Borderland Ruins or is it gonna stay perma-locked like Astragalos?

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I think it will come back before 7.0. Reason being is the developer seems to care more about FL than RW. So much that in this patch one of the maps is being drastically altered.