Seeing general complaints about things and people's responses to questions (for example, here https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...playmechanics/ or here https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...anks-identical ), it seems there is a prevailing sense that the game's combat system is what needs an overhaul, not its graphics engine.
The biggest offender - and what makes EW have more of this feeling than any past expansion - seems to be the 2 min meta. What started out as a well-intentioned attempt to make raiding more approachable has clearly backfired. Not only did it not make raiding easier for the less intrepid, it forced a sameness to the Jobs where every Job is effectively in a cycle of 2 minutes of filler building and conserving resources and CDs to blow all at once in a burst. No matter how distinct some may try to be - Mudras, 1 min mini bursts, 30 sec micro Gnashing Fang bursts - the result is a sameness feel, as there are only so many ways to make a Job that meets the criteria of "blow everything at 2 min points, build and conserve resources and CDs to serve that goal in the meantime". It's even forced reworks of longstanding Jobs like SMN, MNK, and even mid-expansion, PLD, in order to force them to conform to the 2 min meta. Even the least affected Job by this, BLM, has been nudged slightly in its direction.
Secondarily, while FFXIV is exceptionally well balanced, it's SO balanced even a 1-2% deviation is enough to get a Job blacklisted from PF content if it is doing a bit below others. This also creates an environment where party buffs are highly valued, and lack of them requires something substantial to make up for it. MCH had to have dismantle readded, and MCH, PLD, RDM, and WAR have, to various extents, also been blacklisted over the course of the expansion, despite doing (particularly in the case of the Tanks) almost identical damage to their peers.
This is the result of hyper-fine-tuned fight Enrage checks that force players to prioritize DPS above anything and everything else (other than - and sometimes even - mitigation to survive mechanics), leading to the most minor of differences being made out as uncrossable chasms.
People often mention how Jobs were once more distinct, but those were in the before-times, when hyper-tight DPS checks were uncommon, percent damage output differences were tolerated, sustain vs burst DPS was a viable Job encounter damage profile, and gameplay revolving around buffs and utility was either more prized or, at the least, not mocked and condemned vs damage output.
People also have largely praised the PvP mechanics of Jobs, which despite being toolkits a fraction of the PvE size, often feel more engaging and freeform since you have freedom in when to use your CDs and your various abilities are more available than once every 2 minutes or rigidly in service to having to hoard resources and CDs for that 2 min burst.
.
From what people have said, it strikes me that the 2 min burst meta MUST go come 7.0. It seems to have been highly destructive to the game, both in encounter design and Job homogeneity.
After that, encounter DPS checks seem in need of some loosening. Part of made MCH and PLD in particular blacklisted was the DPS checks of the bosses being so tight that 1% less DPS for the party literally COULD result in failing Enrage vs clearing the encounter.
And finally, Jobs need to be allowed to branch out into niches and accepted for bringing more unique flavors and styles to the combat game in all ways - damage profiles and rotations, definitely, but also healing, tanking, and buffing need not be so carbon copy.
[EDIT2: Oh, and hitboxes. Smaller hitboxes on bosses.]
.
But, perhaps I'm misreading the situation and the community responses?
So I thought I'd present this here, and see what you good folks think about the matter.
.
EDIT: Also posting this here: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...d_an_overhaul/
Does FFXIV's combat system need an overhaul?
Printable View
-
05-03-2023, 04:00 AMRenathrasDoes FFXIV's combat system need an overhaul?
-
05-03-2023, 04:04 AMValkyrie_Lenneth
Does it? Yes. It shouldn't become an action game though.
What it needs is for tanks to become tanks again, and healers to become healers again.
The addition of more damage abilities than mitigation abilities to tank jobs is an atrocity. -
05-03-2023, 04:05 AMAbsimiliard
They need to take a look at the engine and netcode as well. In order to keep the game relevant going forward, they really need to be able to make the fights reactive rather than constantly relying on glorified, pre-planned DDR. Memorization is fine, but it can't the only trick in their proverbial hat.
-
05-03-2023, 04:07 AMAmenara
I would love some jobs with priority systems and proc based combat instead of strict rotations. Would be a fan if DPS buffs became personal CDs with different timers or ways to reduce the timers.
-
05-03-2023, 04:24 AMJeeqbitI think the 2-minute meta was meant to make raiding harder. SE could not scale DPS checks around aligned buffs because many raiders didn't care about it except statics and even some of those are probably too casual to care unless they are dying to enrage. Now that buff alignment is guaranteed in the class design, they can design the DPS checks around them and make the checks harder to meet even for the harder core raiders. As you explained, it seems to have succeeded in making it harder as well, considering even hardcore raiders were having trouble with P8S before the nerf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
SE wants the raids to be harder than they have been, but the rest of the game to be easier than it has been, from what I can see. Dungeons easier. Jobs easier. But they are redistributing that lost difficulty into the savage and ultimate raids where, some might argue, it belongs (I'm not going to say one way or the other, since I don't really care).
I wouldn't miss the 2-minute burst windows though, or burst windows in general. I loved PLD as it was without a single burst window. I loved how varied Dark Knight was with the abilities being on a variety of different cooldowns instead of now all being ready at 60 seconds. -
05-03-2023, 04:27 AMDiaDeemOk, before you go any further, let's not let this one fester in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Regardless of what you think of the combat system, that doesn't mean we don't need a graphical overhaul, so don't go around saying we don't really need one or that for some reason doing one eliminates the other. These are not mutually exclusive and I don't understand why you'd preface your post by introducing them as such.
Do we need a combat overhaul? I don't think we do beyond revamping a few abilities to make things a bit more interesting.
Do we need a graphical update? Yes
They're not mutually exclusive.
Ok, continue. -
05-03-2023, 04:32 AMAbsimiliardHard disagree on that one. Raiding in EW is a cakewalk compared to what it was in Stormblood, excepting of course Omega Ultimate and one or two fights that were indisputably overtuned (P8S being one). If anything, the two-minute burst meta has made raiding a lot more approachable than it used to be. Rotations/priorities are far less complex. Fights remain predictable; mechanics just keep getting recycled, and you always know going in that every burst window is going to coincide with bosses throwing the kitchen sink at you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
-
05-03-2023, 04:35 AMValkyrie_LennethQuote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
The problem with the 2 min burst is that it is incredibly, exceedingly, inflexible.
One mistake and your timing is ruined. Personally, I think they need to dump job synergy entirely. It makes things too static. -
05-03-2023, 04:38 AMR041Combat can't keep existing with the jank snapshots.Quote:
Originally Posted by DiaDeem
We need a godamn everything overhaul. Gimme another Calamity, I'm ready. -
05-03-2023, 04:43 AMAbsimiliardThat inflexibility does far more than simply make mistakes more punishing. It has also rather savagely curtailed player innovation, by which I mean there is little reason to experiment with alternative playstyles because of how hard you'll gimp yourself in doing so. Before, while still somewhat rare, you might actually stumble upon something outside the typical meta rotations that would give you a DPS boost. Granted, the two-minute meta gave us the dragon kick shenanigans for Monk that still hasn't been fixed, but that's a bit of an outlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
Agreed on job synergy. You're more or less pigeonholed into "meta" group comps because of it. Then there's the whole job balance thing, which I feel rather justified in saying has been abysmal throughout most of the game's lifespan. Ditching the group utility/synergy in favor of a more direct approach would make the devs a lot more able to rein that in. -
05-03-2023, 05:02 AMDeceptusCaveat: This ONLY happens in the highest tiers of content during progression.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
This doesn't happen is Ex or lower, or on farm status. -
05-03-2023, 05:08 AMValkyrie_LennethQuote:
Originally Posted by R041
The snapshots generally are predicable. Cast bar finishes = snapshot, for 99% of mechanics. -
05-03-2023, 05:10 AMAbsimiliardI dunno about that one, chief. I've been in more than a few EX and savage groups on my EU alt where the leaders were definitely blacklisting certainly classes, not to mention checking logs and actively removing people between pulls based on their parses. Granted, I'm actually perfectly fine with this behavior. There's nothing wrong with a little dose of "git gud or gtfo" when it comes to maximizing your chances of success.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
-
05-03-2023, 05:11 AMhunkygladiatorStatics and players get filtered by DPS checks every single raid tier (or they insist on playing terrible comps like double phys ranged). This isn't new.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
-
05-03-2023, 05:22 AMR041It's 2023. We're the only ones with this jank shit, and it's becoming increasingly more difficult to explain it away to new players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
https://i.giphy.com/media/IhBNczc4LeTrq/200.webp
The fact that this is still a thing, shows their lack of foresight, knowing multiplayer games and MMOs are getting better and better mechanically. -
05-03-2023, 05:36 AMOizenI'm pretty sure the 2m meta was made solely so developing fights was made easier for the developers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
-
05-03-2023, 05:42 AMR041Dev: "Oh, looks like players are confused or having trouble with this thing.. What should we do?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizen
Yoshi: "Can't stop the MSQ train to fix every little thing, just remove it!"
Repeat 100x since HW
Literally every change they make, I put it through the lens of easy/lazy dev and it all starts to make sense. -
05-03-2023, 06:01 AMASkellington
Yes it does omg.
Just tanks and healers alone prove that they do. Other MMOs on the market have tanking and healing STYLES but here? Our mitigations and heals can pretty much be 1:1. And for what reason? PvP shows that they can make diverse tanks.
GNB has a junction function (likely inspired by FF8). We can't give that to it in some way in PvE so it feels different to its other counter parts? Like DRK being the tank that manages its HP LIKE IT SHOULD and not WAR? WAR can't be the DPS tank where in it feels like it holds all the aggro cause it face checks the enemy and says "hey, if you don't deal with me first I'mma wreck you"? PLD can't be the "traditional" tank, the safe one and most defensive, but not fall behind the other three because they have more risks that a new player may not appreciate it, yet still feels as impactful and wanted as its more dps oriented counter part?
WHY, JUST FRIGGIN WHY do we have this BS ditchonomy with healers? Regen is a healing style, PUT IT IN THE GAME AND MAKE A HEALER OUT OF IT. Congrats you gave AST more delayed healing tools (Exalt, Macrocosmos, Horoscope) WHY can't that just be HOW IT HEALS. Why does it HAVE to share its kit sub-50 with WHM?
SGE you had the change to make a never before seen healer in the game. NOPE. You decided to play it safe and make it a SCH clone with no fairy and an extra ability (Phlegma) cool.
You made casters feel different, can we get that in the other two roles please?
And that's just the classes. The fights? They're equally as dull. Where are the bosses/mobs that require movement from the tank? Where are the bosses/mobs that make a healer spot heal and drain their ridiculous amount of healing resources? What about arena hazards? SOMETHING that makes me want to be in a less ideal position be I caster/P.Ranged/melee but with tools that I have access to I can keep on the backburner and use showing my knowledge of the fight OR again, something the tank can position the boss/mob so it becomes less of an issue? Why are there so many wind up attacks at about the same length? Mix it up with instant/long/med and have fun with it! -
05-03-2023, 06:08 AMJeeqbitThat was part of what I was saying. They can't decide on a DPS check if players are not all approaching the fight in the same way so making them all align makes it easier for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizen
-
05-03-2023, 06:13 AMRanaku
The jobs need overhauls, not the combat system. If one wants entirely different combat systems, there are MMOs out there who deliver on that. SWtoR or GW2 have a more action focused combat.
My personal opinion is that it is good there is variety in combat systems and not everything has to be made the same just because it would be "modern". People often don't want that, look at OSRS and Retail Runescape or WoW with Classic and Retail. People often prefer simple "old" systems. -
05-03-2023, 06:17 AMAvoidy
I'd be fine with the snapshotting if it were a 100% consistent thing. Someone earlier said it's predictable 95% of the time, and that sounds about right. But that 5% of the time where it's not what the game trains you to think it'll be, can range from mildly annoying to low-key infuriating.
i really really wish we'd get rid of all this shit that just exists to be used off cd but doesn't actually add anything to a job. Like brd has a skill called sidewinder iirc, and you literally just hit it every 60s. It doesn't do anything except exist to get used and it lines up naturally with your burst and that's it. Same with the DoTs now, too. They're just there to be refreshed but they don't feed into your procs like they used to. I think if a job has a mechanic like this that doesn't really feed into its gameplay loop, then those things should be retooled so they do. Honestly I think most of the dps jobs feel alright; i wish they'd fucking do something about the healing in this game though because it's boring as hell and completely irredeemable in its current state imo. a massive chunk of the game's casual content doesn't even require a healer, that's how totally fucked the role is. -
05-03-2023, 06:31 AMAtelier-Bagur
I just want them to bring back some core rpg elements into the combat such as meaningful debuffs (that arent just dots), buffs (that arent just moar damage), resistances etc stuff that would easily help design our jobs to be interesting and unique. Also with combat overhaul, comes dungeon/trial/raid overhaul where dungeon instances are a lot bigger and just very slightly more open-ended, with a lot more mobs that you cant wall 2 wall, mobs that drop gil, exp, items and even gear so mob fights can be rewarding somewhat. Also maybe mix up the boss encounter like in WoW where sometimes you have 4 or heck even 5 bosses in a dungeon along with perhaps adding in secret bosses if you do some bit of puzzle solving for unique loot. Basically make dungeons feel like an actual mini-adventure and not just a monotonous treadwheel.
I suppose current trial design is fine.....wait no its not, or at least can we please have trial fights where its not just a big circle or dare I say a square? All these squares shouldnt make a circle.
Raid design overhaul would be just a beefed up version of my want for dungeon design, where its not just a long narrow hallway. -
05-03-2023, 07:47 AMRenathrasWell, I think what I mean is that the current combat system DOES NOT ALLOW Jobs to be too distinct. They pretty much all have to be builder/spender type classes that build resources, try not to overcap them, but conserve/have a high amount when the 2 min burst window comes up and all blow them in that window. Likewise, there can only be so much turreting due to the movement requirements of fights (BLM has so much instant cast tools now it's more mobile than RDM, if you can believe it), and fight damage to the party limits diverse healing styles like a HoT Healer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranaku
The reason there can't be variety in Job design/Job overhauls is because the combat system. If we keep the combat system we have now but overhaul the Jobs, we'll end up with the same Jobs because they are very limited in how they can branch them out while operating under the current system and paradigms. -
05-03-2023, 08:32 AMRitsukoSonoda
Does the combat system need an overhaul? Yes
Is it likely to happen in a meaningful way? No
The reason being the overall design direction they decided to take with the game for the purpose of attracting people outside the player bases of MMO's and RPG's is what has caused the combat system to be in the state it's in now. -
05-03-2023, 08:51 AMHurlstone
I can only speak as a casual player who does not do much hardcore endgame. I think given how some people complain about difficulty a rework of combat would be needed to achieve their vision, everything from how jobs work to boss encounters and the whole ‘dance’ mechanic of it all. Personally speak though, I would not want such a drastic overhaul. I like the games style of combat, and how encounters work etc. Would I like to see more diversity in battle tactics and events? Very much yes. More difficult content for solo and group players? You bet. Such things can be added within the current framework however, and I just do not see the need for a major shake up.
-
05-03-2023, 09:01 AMOizenI don't get the reason why this game has such a hard on for rigid damage checks, and I'm not saying this as some angry casual that can't meet them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
I'm of the opinion that the game shouldn't even have super rigid DPS checks if they're not going to implement systems to accurately teach people who to push their buttons correctly, and how to gauge their performance.
Seems like they're trying to have their cake and eat it too by having these hardcore raiding features but the rest of the game heavily favors casuals. -
05-03-2023, 09:27 AMJeeqbitOtherwise you could just play a macro every 15 GCDs to do a rotation for you. I've solo'd some of the Shadowbringers normal raids and been there over 20 minutes because of there not being an enrage. I solo'd one from Stormblood as a blue mage and discovered it actually had a 14 minute enrage. Should a boss really just repeat 2 mechanics after the first 10 minutes while you spend a further 20 minutes killing it because nobody can press their buttons well?Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizen
Tooltips, job guide, and Stone, Sky, Sea are how they do this and if someone actually uses them, they are enough. For example, I don't go to the balance every time a new expansion releases or every time I play a job with a new rotation. I just read the tooltips and job guide it's pretty obvious from there.Quote:
I'm of the opinion that the game shouldn't even have super rigid DPS checks if they're not going to implement systems to accurately teach people who to push their buttons correctly, and how to gauge their performance.
The Balance is useful to learn a tip or too for optimization (for example, delaying or dropping Atonements on paladin), but the core rotations are pretty obvious if you set it up and read it properly as you're doing it.
They have always designed content for both, with an extreme in every patch, savage every two patches, and various other types of content in between for both sides.Quote:
Seems like they're trying to have their cake and eat it too by having these hardcore raiding features but the rest of the game heavily favors casuals.
-
05-04-2023, 05:43 AMOizen
So in order.
Not that they shouldn't exist, its that they shouldn't be as rigid as they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
When mechanics get as hard as they do towards the end of a fight, those tend to be a harder check anyway. I'm not against dps checks, but the game sucks at preparing you for them.
The entire Abyssos fiasco should tell us its not something they test that much anymore either.
Lets be real, these are dogshit. I shouldn't need to go into why but fact of the matter is the game's rotations are community made nothing you really learn in game outside of the standard 123.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
Stone Sky is Sea is not at all more useful than a striking dummy in your lawn. It doesn't really simulate uptime/downtime, mechanics or anything, its just there so people cant point to it and pretend there's actually a bridge between casual content and higher end content, which there is not.
Well first of "But a Discord channel!" doesn't excuse the game's short comings, and I'd say the game doesn't really teach you optimal ways to play your job. Nowhere in the Tooltip for enshoroud does it say "waste time in this form by using random non-enshroud gcds so you can fit two enshrouds under the extremely strict timing of 2m raid buffs" as a random example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
I'd also say a lot of tool tips are very vague, poorly worded, or littered with so many "Additional Effect" that figuring shit out isn't as easy as you're making it sound. Of course thats where The Balance comes in, but then that's a community thing, not a in game resource. I'm not going to give the game a pass because it has a wikipedia article.
Kind of? They do make high and low end content, but not in a way that's conducive of offering players a road to get into the hardest content on their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeqbit
The biggest difficulty jump in this game is from Normal baseline content to Extreme. There is very, very little content in this game that could arguably even be placed around this level. I think this is why so many people just MSQ tourist this game, because once the game stops holding your hand and dumps you off a cliff, you're left wondering what there is even to do.
The game doesn't teach you anything outside of the core fundamentals of press 123, avoid aoe. Try even slightly harder content and you'll get utterly stomped. Tanks aren't taught to mitigate, DPS aren't taught the intricacies of their combos, Supports are just a mess really. Its a pretty miserable experience if you don't have outside tools to help you -
05-04-2023, 07:49 AMTaleraRistainDoesn't even need to be that fancy, either. Case in point: Larboard and starboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
-
05-04-2023, 08:13 AMShougunWhen they were having sneak attack and AST troubles or people were asking for buff classes and they were like .. nah lol, I thought one way to get them partially in vibe without too much issue was having limits on buffs. Like Enfire could grant extra potency up to 500. Debuff on monster that increases incoming damage up to Y.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
If for the most part other job's buffs become their own and we leave the shared burst window I think it would be generally even more okay. Ultimately it's very shallow synergy, but for a job that wants that theme it could be there as an opportunity. I think the example I used previously was Hemorrhaging Spine and Melt Flesh for a blood / necro like mage- which caused the target enemy to take additional damage from their actions, as well from flank/rear, and ranged while the latter dealt instant damage and set damage per incoming attack up to a maximum.
Variations established on the variables, like Hemorrhaging Spine could have a 20 second duration and a maximum of 1000 potency. While Melt Flesh would be instant 250 potency, and additional 500 divided across 5 debuffs that each get consumed by an attack with a debuff duration of 7 seconds and resets at each consumption (from anyone, and multifold attacks could trigger the effect faster). But as the player owns the buff the buff is only 'buffed' by that player's stuff- so the Dark Knight or Ninja might kick off the buff faster than normal yet it would ultimately still 'usually' end at the same. -
05-04-2023, 12:29 PMRenathrasCorrect on all counts, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizen
The only Job that really IS hyper-intuitive is SMN (though the tooltips are atrocious logging in at level 80 and getting on SMN the first time, starting at level 1 and going up to level 90 seems a lot more understandable since you aren't just thrown everything up to Phoenix all at once and having to figure out which things in your spellbook upgrade to what).
The Job widely panned by the community as "braindead" or "too easy". But it's the only Job more or less DESIGNED around the 2 min meta. A full Bahamut, 3 Primals, Phoenix, 3 Primals closes out a 2 minute loop with maybe one or two Ruin 3 fillers in there. Meaning it's a Job that teaches you - indirectly - about the 2 min meta. Because that's LITERALLY the only way to play it unless you're spamming Ruin and sitting on Bahamut/Pheonix CDs for some reason none could possibly fathom. Moreover, again something widely complained about, the Primals do roughly the same damage so there's no optimization other than "when is it safe to use Ifrit". While people complain about that, this again is a Job that actually works for players who only "read their tooltips"; there's no (or rather VERY small) difference between which Primal you use after Bahamut in the burst phase. And the Job has a 2 min CD, meaning the player can intuitively track when their "burst" is coming back up, and it lasts for 30 seconds, meaning the player doesn't have to be nearly as tight on the specific GCD they use it after. Even if they don't understand what the 2 min meta is or the concept of aligning with other Job's buffs, SMN works.
SMN is what Jobs would be like in this game if we relied on "read your tooltips" and made Jobs where "read your tooltips" got you the optimal rotation.
While some concepts are relatively easy - 1-2-3 combos, RDM's Dualcast and burst after 50/50 Mana, BLM's Fire/Ice back and forth - playing those Jobs at all optimally requires far FAR more than that. Then you get into cases like MNK which has a 21 (I believe it is) step combo (lining up the 1-2-3 4-5-6 1-2-6 4-5-6... it makes a closed loop after 21 steps), and that's ignoring when you use the three-of-one-kind to get the Nadi, which briefly bumps the overarching cycle. Learning RDM isn't just "build 50/50 using Dualcast back and forth and then doing your melee combo" but is based around having three melee combos per 2 minute period and trying to get two of them (rarely, part of three) into buff windows. I'm not sure who would even know what a "Transpose Line" is without either going to the Balance or having someone who has tell you about them.
So while some Jobs are easy to understand the basic CONCEPT of in broad brushstrokes, most that won't get you anywhere NEAR an optimal rotation. And that's some Jobs. Some aren't even that. BRD is kind of all over the place, even if it just has one GCD and the rest are "use these when they're up", it is all over the place to the point even most BRDs are annoyed with it at this point.
.
Offhand, the only Jobs that teach you more or less the optimal rotation just by playing them/reading the tooltips are pst-6.3 PLD, WAR (arguably because it's so simple, though you won't learn Beast Gauge optimization), GNB to a point ("have enough gauge to use abilities, and use No Mercy, Double Down, Sonic Break, and [with ~0 skill speed] Gnashing Fang, Bow Shock, and Danger/Blasting Zone on CD, Burst Strike to avoid overcapping), WHM (AST if we're only talking the damage rotation, but not if we include the cards) and SGE (if only because Healer optimal rotations outside of SCH largely consist of "don't overcap and use on CD" and understanding Assize and to a lesser extent Earthly Star are damage abilities used on CD, the healing is just a bonus in the case of Assize and is slightly controllable in the case of Star) [SCH has a bit of optimization...but the difference between fully optimized and not is relatively small]*, and SMN. To a far lesser extent, DNC (if you unga its bunga), MCH (if you weave bunga during unga), and BRD (if you bunga all the unga as they pop randomly and ignore that song order actually matters), but you'll likely be more suboptimal with those (thankfully in the case of DNC and to an extent BRD, your party is doing the actual damage to help you out provided you're buffing them right...)
In other words, all the Jobs the community often attacks as being "braindead" and/or "too easy". The community that either lives on The Balance or, at the least, references it when a new expansion or major ability changing patch is released. Because with those resources, sure, some of those Jobs may seem easy; indeed, they are arguably the easier Jobs to do well on. BECAUSE they're largely intuitive and the nuance detail stuff is only needed to get a marginal difference on the top end. WITHOUT all those resources and reference? They're the only Jobs that are even approachable to play at an optimal level.
*Note for Healers I'm talking about their damage. Their healing kits can be easy and intuitive (WHM) or...less so (the others), though if you have the mind of a Healer player to even be playing them to begin with, those are MOSTLY understandable...as long as you read The Balance or a guide that tells you what an oGCD is. Because that's right: The game never tells you that "Action" actually IS DIFFERENT from "Spell". All of us HERE know it, but we didn't always. We've known it for so long and dealt with it for so long. But I started in 2.3. I remember thinking on SCH it was weird how Lustrate would go off right after a Physic or Bio but Adlo would not. On WHM, I noticed this same thing with Tetra vs Regen, both instant casts but only Tetra (in HW) would go off whenever I hit it while Regen wouldn't go off right away if I had just used Aero or another Regen. WEIRD, huh? It wasn't until SB - TWO WHOLE EXPANSIONS later - when I watched a YouTube guide on SCH, that I actually learned (a) what oGCD vs GCD actually was - that the abbreviations even existed and (b) that things like Dissipation that say "healing MAGIC" refer ONLY to the things marked "Spell", NOT the things marked "Action".
You reading this are like "lol, Ren, you're so stupid! _I_ figured that out the first hour I played the game! Heck, I figured it out on the character creation screen!"
If so, good for you.
But then there's everyone who isn't a 180 IQ super genius like yourself. In ShB, I was asked by people in my FC at the time to teach them how to heal. Some of these players had been playing since 1.X, but apparently, I was blowing away the healing metrics on whoever was running a parser at the time. I had them watch the video as well after asking them "Well, do you know what an oGCD is?" and getting a response of "What's an oGCD?" Then, depending on if they were playing WHM, SCH, or AST, I would tailor the discussion to their Job (because I have a fine mind for healing in general, but understanding the interplay and difference between GCD and oGCD is essential to how healing works in this game.)
While I never say "no one" (and try to avoid absolute statements), I'd wager MOST people don't understand what an oGCD is unless someone explains it to them or they read a guide external to the game. As far as I'm aware, the game itself never says anything, and other than "Huh, this spell goes off instantly every time when these others don't...why is that?", most people won't learn the difference on their own, much less those nuanced things like "Spell/Actionskill" vs "Actions" buffing tooltips.
And oGCD is a HUGE part of the game.
It's basically required for optimal gameplay or even anything approaching it. Even super-easy SMN is going to be doing less damage if the player is waiting 2.5 sec between casts including using things like Energy Drain or Ahk Mourn. And don't even get me started on triple weaves!
I would, in fact, argue that RIGHT after ABC, oGCD and weave understanding is the second most fundamental skill in this game to playing anywhere near optimally. If you know just those two things and otherwise roll your face across your keyboard, you'll at least get a Green in 24 mans, if not Blue, because so many players don't know the difference. It's that essential to doing good DPS and so many players don't understand it because the game literally tells you nothing and you HAVE to go outside of the game to learn what is a hyper-essential skill.
.
I do love this game, but as far as "read your tooltips"; that's BS and we all know it.
No one figures out an optimal rotation on their own - not even SMN, since there IS some optimizing (albeit small) based on Primal order in burst and you MUST know the mechanics of the oGCD system the game has to get the most out of even it.
.
Sorry for the rant, I just feel strongly when people are like "Most players are dumb/lazy, why don't they just read their tooltips, cause that's how I learned optimal play", because it's absolute total and unadulterated hogwash and we all know it. No, YOU didn't learn that way. No one did. You might not have used The Balance, but you read some guides somewhere or watched some YouTube ones that explained the basics to you, and you had AT LEAST that. Maybe you don't read The Balance every major patch, but you don't have to. You read it when you started playing your Job, and that, not you being the second coming of Einstein, is how you learned it.
Hell, even they didn't learn it from tooltips! The Balance folks have to use hours of parsing data - a third party and technially illegal tool - in order for them to figure it out. And I'd genuinely love to meet the first person that figured out how oGCDs work and started spreading that knowledge around the community/world.
.
I shouldn't be TOO hard on it as there are a lot of things you CAN figure out on your own...kinda. Picking up WHM in ARR made perfect sense. There were no oGCD heals (other than Benediction; just PoM and Divine Seal and Fluid Aura if you felt frisky), Freecure gave you MP free Cure 2s back when...you know...MP mattered, and so on. But go from that to trying to play high end today? Not even in the same ballpark.
.
Summary:
NOTE: This isn't me saying being bad is good or the game is impossible.
But it IS me saying how little you actually learn of your rotations and good play with the game itself. So bashing other players over it REALLY is unfair, and "just read your tooltips" to be good is absolute BS. "Read a guide" or "Watch YouTube guides" is how people get good in this game outside of some very few and rare individuals. -
05-04-2023, 01:19 PMJeeqbitThe testing process was explained in detail so obviously they do. They just miscalculated it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizen
I don't agree with going so far as to say that the rotations are community made. Little optimizations about when to press things, maybe, but generally, doing your GCD combos that say "Combo Action:" and even show the combo in compact mode is simple and abilities you can just press off cooldown in most cases, even if optimizations can be made with that. You can usually tell what is more optimal by potency differences alone, or when something isn't meant to be hardcast because it's a really long cast. To me these things were obvious without looking anything up.Quote:
Lets be real, these are dogshit. I shouldn't need to go into why but fact of the matter is the game's rotations are community made nothing you really learn in game outside of the standard 123.
You know if you're either significantly undergeared or executing the rotation poorly if you can't beat the 4th floor savage dummy though. You should at least be able to get it down in the crafted gear for that tier, or be within seconds of it. It's true that it doesn't simulate mechanics, but there is a way to tell if DPS isn't good enough in a raid: you will die to enrage.Quote:
Stone Sky is Sea is not at all more useful than a striking dummy in your lawn. It doesn't really simulate uptime/downtime, mechanics or anything, its just there so people cant point to it and pretend there's actually a bridge between casual content and higher end content, which there is not.
It completely depends if you read the tooltips and job guide in the Actions & Traits menu. If you did that, the game explains it fine. But a lot of people are not as detailed as I am. Is it really the game's fault if people are not thorough and don't read things well? It would be ideal to have a training area for executing the basic rotation but I think their argument is it changes every expansion or even more frequently than that sometimes because it's an MMO.Quote:
I'd also say a lot of tool tips are very vague, poorly worded, or littered with so many "Additional Effect" that figuring shit out isn't as easy as you're making it sound.
True, but the [Practice] tags on parties is inviting enough. The only thing they really need to know before trying out some practice is to check Party Finder.Quote:
Kind of? They do make high and low end content, but not in a way that's conducive of offering players a road to get into the hardest content on their own.
-
05-04-2023, 08:19 PMYusheesIt's as janky as OSRS with the prayer flickering / swap when fighting certain enemiesQuote:
Originally Posted by R041
-
05-04-2023, 09:32 PMGhutts
I don't know how many of you played FFXI. And I don't want to do a comparison. It's not fair, they're two different games and FFXIV should feel like it's own. But I do miss some of the party mechanics XI had. The most notable is the Thief. Having the off tank get aggro and the Thief using Sneak Attack & Trick Attack, then Viper Bite was awesome. Not only did this cause some big damage to the Mob, but it put all the aggro onto the main tank and helped keep the party organized. The Red Mage was amazing to have in party because they got a few spells that only they had access to. And it differentiated them from the WHM and BLM. In XIV they feel like an appendix. There, but not really helpful.
I would agree with a lot of the suggestions I see here already. Change the Tanks to Tanks. More shielding and Covering. Less focus on Dmg. Give the Healers some differing abilities to make the Healing more impactful, and make the healers feel like the Team anchors they really are. DPs abilities should have some flair to them. In XI the SAM had an ability, Third eye, which let him Tank a hit with no damage. This was perfect for Off Tanking as it let him mitigate some damage while the Healers focused on the Main Tank for a moment without the other party members getting reamed viciously. Even the Ninja could shadow Tank and that was crazy! Super Squishy DPS class Tanking like a boss was awesome to see.
Anyway I don't know if any of this was helpful but there it is. -
05-04-2023, 10:17 PMShinkuno
Square is where Blizzard was with WoW many years ago. Homegenized classes with no identity and you only pick what colour of vfx you want. People complained that they didnt get taken into specific fights depending on their class so everyone got everything. And it made even a shred of sense in WoW considering you cant just swap your class. BUT IT MAKES NO SENSE HERE, if Timmy the tank wants to only play paladin? Who cares, then the consequence should be that certain fights hes gotta get benched if hes unwilling to swap to warrior. THE GEAR IS SHARED for crying out loud. Instead all we get is every job in every role feeling the same with exceptions like BLM. Every fight is the same to make sure everything plays the same. And in the end PEOPLE STILL WONT TAKE CERTAIN JOBS because all that matters is DPS and if every job plays the same with different potencies then the highest potency jobs will be selected. Make jobs unique and if someone is too stubborn to switch jobs within a role, thats on them.
TL;DR: play into the "all jobs one character" of ff14 and make jobs unique and better/worse on certain content -
05-05-2023, 05:42 AMDonomanI don't even think it was this bad in WoW. There is practically no difference between the healers in this game at all, but at least in WoW, they all felt different, even if some of them played like sh*t lol. This combat system really needs an overhaul, especially at low levels, and I can't believe it's not talked about as much as it should be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkuno