So whatever was the story of the missing Deep Dungeon for Shadowbringers?

ARR/HW - Palace of the Dead
SB - Heaven on High
SHB -????
EW - Eureka Orthos

I always thought that was odd, I read rumors there was suppose to be one, but I don't know if it is a fact or not.

They wanted to divert those resources to different types of content. They eventually returned to them due to popular demand. A bit like Hildibrand's hiatus.

Bozja was the DD

They substituted it with Bozja's more in depth Critical Events system which brought in Duels as well as Instances within Instances with Castrum Lacus Litorum and Dalriada.

As well as the Alliance raid between the two Bozja "overworld" instances, Delubnum Reginae and its Savage variant.

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

ARR/HW - Palace of the Dead
SB - Heaven on High
SHB -????
EW - Eureka Orthos

I always thought that was odd, I read rumors there was suppose to be one, but I don't know if it is a fact or not.

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I think just like Hildibrand, they were burned out from it and took a Break from it to do something else.
Just like how they are taking a break from doing more Massive Zones for the Next Relic.

I always felt that the intention was to just release a deep dungeon every other expansion:
- ARR: PotD
- HW: none (other than bolting-on more PotD floors, but when we are talking randomized content, it isn't a design-from-scratch effort)
- SB: HoH
- ShB: none
- EW: Orthos

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Originally Posted by dspguy

I always felt that the intention was to just release a deep dungeon every other expansion:
- ARR: PotD
- HW: none (other than bolting-on more PotD floors, but when we are talking randomized content, it isn't a design-from-scratch effort)
- SB: HoH
- ShB: none
- EW: Orthos

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ARR didn't have POTD, that was 3.35 with the first 50 floors, and 3.45 released the last 150 floors, so they started in HW.

3.35 patch notes with POTD right up top: here
3.45 patch notes, POTD under the relic step quest under "Quests": here

I wish we'd have gotten a new Bozja and not this rehash of PotD. It's fun but ultimately very samey.

See this thread just shows the fickleness of people. you give them one thing they don't like it. we want this instead! ok so they give it to you. I wish we had the other thing back instead. can't win anywhere.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

See this thread just shows the fickleness of people. you give them one thing they don't like it. we want this instead! ok so they give it to you. I wish we had the other thing back instead. can't win anywhere.

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fickleness of ***the community. More than one person plays this game

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

See this thread just shows the fickleness of people. you give them one thing they don't like it. we want this instead! ok so they give it to you. I wish we had the other thing back instead. can't win anywhere.

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It may come as a shock to the genius minds in this community, but the people complaining about Bozja and complaining about Deep Dungeon aren't the same people!

both sides have to just accept that there isn't enough dev resources to go around to have both in the same expansion then.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

It may come as a shock to the genius minds in this community, but the people complaining about Bozja and complaining about Deep Dungeon aren't the same people!

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Well, if you acknowledge that fact than what you want SE to do? Taking turn of pissing different segment of players off round-robin style? Maybe this is just the cycle where you're in the low and other in the high? Just a thought. :p


Frankly, FF14 is getting to a point where it had become too wide. An expansion or two ago I used to think that's a good thing ... but now I'm having doubt tbh. They're spreading way too thin.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

both sides have to just accept that there isn't enough dev resources to go around to have both in the same expansion then.

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Stormblood did do both of them.

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Originally Posted by Winterfang

Stormblood did do both of them.

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true but I think there was an interview where Yoshida talked about how badly their team got burnout for churning out so much content at once with Stormblood. I'm all for getting more things but I rather want the developers to avoid becoming burnout otherwise they lose that passion if they're just overworked.

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Originally Posted by Winterfang

Stormblood did do both of them.

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And when they didn't do both the zone had much more content.

They could always go back and tweak the last expansion content to 90. So if rotating next expansion no new Deep Dungeon but the content goes to new level cap and drops items for the new cap. They could ask the cash shop team where to hire some new item designers.



But seriously it might be neither of them generate enough interest to have both at the same time. And while they rebalance some content they might not want to admit to more failed content by reworking it.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

true but I think there was an interview where Yoshida talked about how badly their team got burnout for churning out so much content at once with Stormblood. I'm all for getting more things but I rather want the developers to avoid becoming burnout otherwise they lose that passion if they're just overworked.

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They need to either combine or focus on some of the existing content type. I think the intention is they gonna switch back and forth between different content type for each expansion, but if some players get hook on a certain content type they will expect to see it every expansion. Like for example, instead of creating Criterion, they should have combine it with the new Deep dungeon and thus create a more elaborated version of it. Don't ask me how, I haven't thought about it much yet, just have a feeling those two can work together somehow. Then you have just one content type to develop and maintain, not just now but also future.

Instead, with Island and Criterion they now have two more type content to work on their own. With too many content types will lead to problem with dispersing reward as well, 'cause there are only so many thing you can set as prize for an activities, and I feel like right now that's a problem (we either have content that have under-reward, or reward that's just repetitive over too many activities).

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Originally Posted by CidHeiral

And when they didn't do both the zone had much more content.

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Okay, I was only referring to Eureka though, but if you want to drag Bozja into this
1) The groundwork for the Bozja systems was already made in part thanks to Eureka already setting a foundation that allowed for new systems to be worked on (Critical Encounters, Duels, ect)
2) Bozja wasn't completely more in some aspects compared to Eureka. Bozja had two lands to Eureka's four, the Lost Actions systems was was essentially tossing out Logograms mixing and just skipping to the results, and though I do love the content I'm going to say that the environment Design for it was phoned in and disappointing, especially Zadnor. Let's not forget that even what we did get was incredibly rushed in some aspects.
3) Now in EW the shoe is on the other foot, however Deep Dungeons did not do any considerable amount of improvements to prove why it couldn't exist alongside another exploratory zone. Because the work didn't go into Deep Dungeons, it went into other game systems (that are still left wanting even though we are past the half point of the expansion, but I digress).

I don't think we have to sacrifice Exploratory Content for a Deep Dungeon or vice versa, and basing it off Shadowbringers not having a Deep Dungeon, an expansion that had difficulties for reasons that obviously can't be placed on the dev team, isn't something that should accepted as a norm.

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Originally Posted by Winterfang

1) The groundwork for the Bozja systems was already made in part thanks to Eureka already setting a foundation that allowed for new systems to be worked on (Critical Encounters, Duels, ect)

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Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like all that really carried over was the special action system. Eureka certainly didn't invent large zones or fates.

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2) Bozja wasn't completely more in some aspects compared to Eureka. Bozja had two lands to Eureka's four, the Lost Actions systems was was essentially tossing out Logograms mixing and just skipping to the results, and though I do love the content I'm going to say that the environment Design for it was phoned in and disappointing, especially Zadnor. Let's not forget that even what we did get was incredibly rushed in some aspects.

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Depends on how you look at it. Eureka has four zones but those zones are just wandering mobs and the occasional NM that pops and throws AOEs around. Bozja on the other hand only has two zones but both zones are full of mini boss fights with much more involved mechanics. It also has three alliance raids, four if you count the savage version. I'd say Bozja easily comes out on top there and that's coming from someone who enjoyed Eureka more than Bozja.

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3) Now in EW the shoe is on the other foot, however Deep Dungeons did not do any considerable amount of improvements to prove why it couldn't exist alongside another exploratory zone. Because the work didn't go into Deep Dungeons, it went into other game systems (that are still left wanting even though we are past the half point of the expansion, but I digress).

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You're not wrong that it's more or less the same as the previous DD but they still have to design and build all the different floor aesthetics, all the weapons, all the boss fights, all the sound design, etc. These assets don't materialize themselves into existence.

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I don't think we have to sacrifice Exploratory Content for a Deep Dungeon or vice versa

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I don't presume to know the amount of work the dev team can or cannot handle. I assume if they could reasonably handle both, they would. That being said, I don't think we need deep dungeons or special zones every expansion either. I've seen people on this forum simultaneously complain that X feature is missing from a previous expansion only to turn around and complain the expansion is more of the same. There is only so much content a human being can churn out and I would personally prefer them to use those limited resources to branch out and try new things even if those things don't always turn out the best or appeal to me specifically.

The vaguely come up with a plan for all the expansion's patches sometime after the .3 patch of the previous expansion, and they simply did not plan on another deep dungeon because they thought people didn't really care about them that much. Most likely they noticed a massive drop in activity in Heaven-on-High compared to Palace of the Dead, or something like that, because of how more people have access to POTD than HoH. Remember that back then, trying to get the Necromancer title in POTD was not as big of a thing, and you only started really seeing people showing off the title after streamers started doing it and created interest in it some time before Endwalker.

Deep dungeons were part of the "try new ideas to keep things fresh" part of the content cycle, so once people seem bored of it they try something new and so instead we got the firmament events, ocean fishing and bozja CEs, two bozja CE raids, an extra extreme and bigger raids such as DR/DRS.

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

ARR/HW - Palace of the Dead
SB - Heaven on High
SHB -????
EW - Eureka Orthos

I always thought that was odd, I read rumors there was suppose to be one, but I don't know if it is a fact or not.

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Bozja which gave us:

- two new zones

- countless fates

- an insane amount of rewards from glam to armor to many mounts and whatnot

- 3 extra raids, 1 savage version, 1 extra trial

And while you can argue that we also got a deep dungeon when Eureka came out in stormblood, Eureka was not even close to what Bozja offered. No matter if you liked that specific content or not the amount of time you could sink into it was crazy.

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Originally Posted by rainichan

ARR didn't have POTD, that was 3.35 with the first 50 floors, and 3.45 released the last 150 floors, so they started in HW.

3.35 patch notes with POTD right up top: here
3.45 patch notes, POTD under the relic step quest under "Quests": here

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Right you are. Faulty memory on my part. I was pretty sure I remember running PotD floor 50 shortly before I had to evacuate for a hurricane in 2015. Turns out, it was 2016 - so HW.

Yeah, then the missing deep dungeon for ShB is a bit weird.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Right you are. Faulty memory on my part. I was pretty sure I remember running PotD floor 50 shortly before I had to evacuate for a hurricane in 2015. Turns out, it was 2016 - so HW.

Yeah, then the missing deep dungeon for ShB is a bit weird.

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No worries! That was also some years ago lol... so I get it.

My only guess is they had other things they wanted to do and no time to do everything, so things got cut unfortunately. They found that they were popular though with everyone asking about DDs and Hildibrand constantly. I wouldn't mind some First lore though, so perhaps in the future.