I want Alliance Raid (Extreme)

i just feel like it make sense for normal contents to have harder version of it.
trials have extreme and normal raid have savages. For dungeons, you can leave it to criterion dungeons. Only Alliance raid that need this

For Alliance Raid extreme, the difficulty should be the same as "another criterion dungeon" (not savage ver), and they need to use of all 24 players to create a new and unique mechanics in alliance raid. I also want the fight to be a bit more fast paced like most bosses in alliance raid in expansions before EW

They can release the extreme version a week or 2 weeks after normal version is out. The gear should be the same ilv as savage and augmented tomestone gear, just different stat. Should also drop gears that are from normal raid too.

https://cdnmetv.metv.com/z50xp-16197...t_items-no.jpg

Isn't savage/extreme+ already niche content as it is when you consider the amount of the playerbase that bothers with the current tiers?

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Originally Posted by kevin_satron

i just feel like it make sense for normal contents to have harder version of it.
trials have extreme and normal raid have savages. For dungeons, you can leave it to criterion dungeons. Only Alliance raid that need this

For Alliance Raid extreme, the difficulty should be the same as "another criterion dungeon" (not savage ver), and they need to use of all 24 players to create a new and unique mechanics in alliance raid. I also want the fight to be a bit more fast paced like most bosses in alliance raid in expansions before EW

They can release the extreme version a week or 2 weeks after normal version is out. The gear should be the same ilv as savage and augmented tomestone gear, just different stat. Should also drop gears that are from normal raid too.

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Then do BA or DRS.

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Originally Posted by Knot_D

Then do BA or DRS.

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Real Talk, we need another BA.
That is The Only Real Legit Raid in FFXIV.

I don't want extreme but I do want a "slightly harder" version where the bosses launch straight into the second, more complicated versions of their attacks rather than starting off with a simpler demonstration version.

Also make individual mechanics happen faster, like the first boss of Paradigm's Breach doesn't need two whole lengthy turns to spawn copies and then label them 2 and 3.

And have individual mechanics have less warning or more thinking – to go to the example of variant/criterion, I like how the easier version of the Silkie fight has clear labelled left and right versions of its sweeping attack, but the harder version just has one named attack and you have to read the direction of it yourself.

Criterion fails, in my opinion, because it jumps straight to introducing unfamiliar and complex versions of mechanics, where I would prefer to get "the same mechanics without the training wheels". Criterion should have been this, and Criterion Savage the point where they introduced new mechanics entirely.

As someone who started grinding into DRS early into the patch. I feel like having a new large-scale raid, at least once per xpac could be a great adition to the content schedule

SB had BA

ShB had DRS

Both are fairly active if you join any of the communities. Even this week has already like 4 public runs scheduled for DRS alone

Not sure how could they tie a 24 man extreme or 48 man savage to the current expac, but I sure do hope we get a new one in 7.x patches.

I know its niche content, but damn its definetly one of the most unique pieces of content, and one of the best community experiences I have had since I started playing

they can always just make things hit harder

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Real Talk, we need another BA.
That is The Only Real Legit Raid in FFXIV.

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Yeah I do wish we have another BA that gives beneficial reward unlike DRS :)

Yeah BA and DR savages are pretty fun, theyre about on par with extreme difficulty. They just really need to make them far more accessible for players, set up can only really be done through discord...

Sadly I don't think they will give harder Alliance Raids, since starting with Shadowbringers the bosses mostly are just damage sponges that's tank busters hit hard enough to kill a healer or a DPS and failing to do 99% mechanics has the severe consequences of getting a vulnerability up debuff.

I would 100% enjoy extreme alliance raids. Heck even mid core ones like CLL and Dalriada.

Unfortunately the DF and instance dodgers determine the design of the content now a days and so if it can’t be cleared in 15 minutes it’s not worthy to be in the game.

Too bad their own systems have limited how they can design the mainstream instance content for people so much all we get is un explorable corridors with unavoidable bosses/mobs in between.

This game does need more raids/activities similar to Baldesion Arsenal. Frankly, BA is one of the best pieces of content I've experienced.

Honestly I wouldn't mind seeing multiple difficulties for most content. It would allow them to cater to more types of players without spending time making more art assets. That's one thing I certainly miss from WoW. Would be nice if there were either two or three difficulty levels for dungeons, trials, alliance raids, and normal raids. Ultimates can remain as the most difficult content.

Let me go a week without wiping in World of Darkness because looking away from the angry meatball for four seconds is too hard, then we'll talk.

- You did have Extreme Alliance raid, it's called Ivalice raid. People hate it.
- Creating a challenge Allirance raid is not as simple as just adjust the number up. They did it with the Nier raid. People hate it.

I thought it was mostly the story that people hated about the Nier raids.

do baldesion arsenal/delubrum savage

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

- You did have Extreme Alliance raid, it's called Ivalice raid. People hate it.
- Creating a challenge Allirance raid is not as simple as just adjust the number up. They did it with the Nier raid. People hate it.

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"Hate" is a strong word. I'd sooner call it "allergic to having to pay attention to not die".

Also you can't just say "people hated it" just like I can't claim "people loved it" without actual data. In case of Ivalice I would say though it was rather well received and was a fundamental awareness check, much needed at that.

But that is not "Extreme" by any stretch.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Also you can't just say "people hated it" just like I can't claim "people loved it" without actual data.

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Every months, you get at least one thread complaining about people not able to get in Ivalice and Nier or wait for a long time to get in. Usually the same thread will have large numbers of people coming out saying they avoid those 2 raid specifically ... If that's not enough "data" for you, I don't know what is. And it's a verifiable phenomenon in game.

Also I don't know what all the "awareness" thingy you're bringing up, I don't think that's the point. I know many people who do Savage and Ultimate still swear off those two raid all the same, including myself. They always say time and place for everything, just people I can enjoy a challenge doesn't mean I enjoy being challenge everywhere. There is casual content and there is hardcore content, I don't like hardcore content to be easy for the same reason I don't want to bang my head against a wall in casual content.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I thought it was mostly the story that people hated about the Nier raids.

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It's a tie between Ivalice and NieR from what I saw, and for two different reasons:

Nier's story was hated because it became clear after a while that it was a glorified crossover event and you needed to know the Drakengard/NieR plot to understand what was going on. It ended without proper answers or a satisfying blend of the raid into FF14's lore. Oh and the two lalafell NPCs were beyond irritating, with their ending leaving some people feel like the 'feels factor' they were going for was undeserved.

Ivalice's story from minute one was hated because it relied heavily on "Tell, don't Show", blitzing through a lot of important plot details that only made sense if you knew of both Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy 12. Then the characters it introduced were terrible, with Montblanc and Present-day Ramza garnering hate for being insufferable. Then, some raid fights were way too hard for the majority of the playerbase, with notorious fights such as Hasbrown, QUICK MAFFS, "Don't stand on the circles during Dark Geas" Rofocale, HP Sponge Yiazmat, Thunder God Cid... Eventually it also became hated due to BROWN. Bozja being another round of "Tell, don't Show", it being another grind fest with an oppressive environment and forcing you to finish the Ivalice raids and run them like 10 times made it all worse.

I liked the raids due to their presentation and gameplay. I loved the fights not holding your hands and outright having the balls to tell this playerbase to just get good. But the stories were not the best, and eventually the playerbase's cries of foul won out, with Ivalice getting nerfs and item level alleviating some of the issues with NieR. Either way, people still hate on them to this day for being too hard/HP sponges.

...

Apart from that, I agree with your previous post. People hate on these and don't want fights like these, but at the same time so many people to this day, Mentors included, would wipe at Phlegethon's flare and Angra Mainyu's gaze attack.

I don't think this playerbase is the best to have any form of complexity around |D
And if people feel insulted for this, I'm sorry but start proving me wrong, then I wouldn't be saying it.

Not sure if Yoshi would after all the cheating with ones caught using third party programs.

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Originally Posted by hagare

they can always just make things hit harder

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FFXIV is a game that caters to casual players first. I don't think they would consider that an option. Mind you, I would like to see 24-man raids be a little harder, but I also recognize that part of what keeps this game healthy is the playerbase.

Maybe a 24-man savage isn't a terrible idea. We have countless posts by raiders wanting a faster way to earn top-tier gear. Maybe this is a way to do it.

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Originally Posted by hynaku

Not sure if Yoshi would after all the cheating with ones caught using third party programs.

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Look man, the Ultimate cheating is one thing, but we and they can't now use this for everything to deny doing any difficult content.

Once or twice is a point, but after a while its just a cheap excuse.

Would MinILevel suffice?

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Would MinILevel suffice?

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If you already know the fight, a MinILevel ARaid is only really an extra challenge to healers.
And by extra challenge I mean an extra raidwide heal every now and then.

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Originally Posted by Iyrnthota

If you already know the fight, a MinILevel ARaid is only really an extra challenge to healers.
And by extra challenge I mean an extra raidwide heal every now and then.

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Not necessarily. A min ilvl fight also forces players to perform the mechanics or risk dying to damage, so its an extra challenge to them. For example CT is so braindead that you can stand in pretty much all AOEs without taking significant damage. The last boss platforms being a small exception but they don't even kill anymore either.

In Thordan, and I don't if its been updated that much but before you actually had to try to die, and you wouldn't always be successful.

I bet CT/LOTA would be funner capped at ilvl 50 or something.

An "Extreme" version of the Alliance raids I think should mostly just be there being some overlap on the mechanics, maybe adding an extra set of AoEs on random players during a part with lots of movement if there isn't any mechanics to overlap, an enrage timer on all the bosses, and maybe a little bit of a damage boost on the bosses.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Not necessarily. A min ilvl fight also forces players to perform the mechanics or risk dying to damage, so its an extra challenge to them. For example CT is so braindead that you can stand in pretty much all AOEs without taking significant damage. The last boss platforms being a small exception but they don't even kill anymore either.

In Thordan, and I don't if its been updated that much but before you actually had to try to die, and you wouldn't always be successful.

I bet CT/LOTA would be funner capped at ilvl 50 or something.

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You probably didn't mean it this way, but I find it incredibly amusing that what constitutes an "extra challenge" for players is "doing mechanics".

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Originally Posted by Iyrnthota

You probably didn't mean it this way, but I find it incredibly amusing that what constitutes an "extra challenge" for players is "doing mechanics".

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LMAO. I didn't realize how sad the situation has become until I read your comment and re-read mine. We are doomed.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Not necessarily. A min ilvl fight also forces players to perform the mechanics or risk dying to damage, so its an extra challenge to them. For example CT is so braindead that you can stand in pretty much all AOEs without taking significant damage. The last boss platforms being a small exception but they don't even kill anymore either.

In Thordan, and I don't if its been updated that much but before you actually had to try to die, and you wouldn't always be successful.

I bet CT/LOTA would be funner capped at ilvl 50 or something.

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I'll pass with capping the item lv. Lol...

I remember doing LotA with my fc with everything being synced to the bare minimum, my very first time dealing with min item level. The only thing I was taught was how well I did not know the true penalty of failing mechanics. We called it quits after an hour of not passing the first boss. I do remember asking at one point why it was instant death for missing a mechanic rather than the entire party being near dead before a few people in the group started chucking. Completed the raid tons of times through roulette. The low stats gave me a different perspective. Thrilling, but scary.

Let's not start forcing rage quits in roulettes.

Would be cool to at least have the fights be accelerated. Most of Euphro's enemies die before they get to the stacked stuff.
I've wanted "Unreal" for Alliance Raids for a while but a lot of people feel threatened by even that and think that since they don't want to do it, nobody else should have it either. It's a moot point though. SE has been doing the same routine for years and likely won't spice it up at all. Would be nice though, to have engaging 24man content that wasn't locked behind some grindy boring exploratory zone and then needs you to organize it in discord since it's so dead in the base game.

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Originally Posted by Iyrnthota

You probably didn't mean it this way, but I find it incredibly amusing that what constitutes an "extra challenge" for players is "doing mechanics".

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That's partially why people want an extreme version of the Alliance Raids... Since they've fallen so far down in difficulty that just actually having to do do all the mechanics would be an added challenge...

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

Would be cool to at least have the fights be accelerated. Most of Euphro's enemies die before they get to the stacked stuff.
I've wanted "Unreal" for Alliance Raids for a while but a lot of people feel threatened by even that and think that since they don't want to do it, nobody else should have it either. It's a moot point though. SE has been doing the same routine for years and likely won't spice it up at all. Would be nice though, to have engaging 24man content that wasn't locked behind some grindy boring exploratory zone.

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It's kinda funny how quick Euphro bosses die now everyone know what they're doing.
I haven't had a run this past couple weeks yet where we got LB3 on Menphina before she was dead, which just doesn't seem right for the end boss, you know.

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Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika

I'll pass with capping the item lv. Lol...

I remember doing LotA with my fc with everything being synced to the bare minimum, my very first time dealing with min item level. The only thing I was taught was how well I did not know the true penalty of failing mechanics. We called it quits after an hour of not passing the first boss. I do remember asking at one point why it was instant death for missing a mechanic rather than the entire party being near dead before a few people in the group started chucking. Completed the raid tons of times through roulette. The low stats gave me a different perspective. Thrilling, but scary.

Let's not start forcing rage quits in roulettes.

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LotA is kind of a special case, as that fight was built with a slightly different party setup than it currently takes in mind... As the Alliances each originally had 2 tanks, 2 healers and 4 DPS... And some thingss were more built with 6 tanks in mind, but that structure kind of got dropped by the time CT came around and it became the 1 tank per alliance it's been ever since.

And I want to wear hats.

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Originally Posted by kevin_satron

i just feel like it make sense for normal contents to have harder version of it.
trials have extreme and normal raid have savages. For dungeons, you can leave it to criterion dungeons. Only Alliance raid that need this

For Alliance Raid extreme, the difficulty should be the same as "another criterion dungeon" (not savage ver), and they need to use of all 24 players to create a new and unique mechanics in alliance raid. I also want the fight to be a bit more fast paced like most bosses in alliance raid in expansions before EW

They can release the extreme version a week or 2 weeks after normal version is out. The gear should be the same ilv as savage and augmented tomestone gear, just different stat. Should also drop gears that are from normal raid too.

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People are already real carpets on easy alliance raid.
Would you like it to be harder?
Whether it's at the beginning or end of an expansion, I spend my time PL'ing carpets.

And if you want to create a PF with 24 ppl, I wish you good luck unless you are a streamer, you won't get anyone.

People already avoid the more difficult 24 person raids that are available to them, there is no way anyone will want to do an extreme version of one. The only way would be to attach some outrageous reward that surpasses even Savage raiding, which will never happen because the kind of fit those people would throw.

Logistically, I feel like it would be an absolute pain to actually get together a big enough group, or pf it with people of unknown skill levels (but of course I'm saying this as a crystal player, bc it would probably be much easier on aether/primal), but I do really love the idea. The one thing I miss about wow is the absolute scale of raids. It's really fun going through a bunch of bosses with an army of people, and especially having varied environments instead of the same square/circle floating platform.

I do think that delubrum reginae sort of fits this though (and maybe baldesion arsenal, but I haven't done eureka). My only gripe with it is the essence/skill stuff in bozja, just because you kind of have to engage with it to not be dead weight. I'd love the same type of thing but with standard combat gameplay.

It's just not easy or simple do it for 24 people.

With savage, it's only a small group and the expectation is clear: you screw up - you die. You die more than a few time - you hit enrage.

Like ... when people you want harder 24, what exactly you're looking for? More mechanic? The thing is you already have mechanics, the different is not even complexity, but rather consequence. 24 is easy not because its mech are braindead, it's just because most of the time there is no consequence for failing. So you want there is conseuqence? How would you go about it?


- The Ivalice raid is an example where deaths actually matter because bosses often have follow up that if too many people die the raid can't recover. It was basically savage-lite, but with 24 people who have no expectation or standard among themselves.

- Ok, so let make it hard enough to kill people often, but not hard enough to wipe the raid? Well, that's what the Nier raid was. You still see a lot of people getting hit and die, but rarely to a point of un-recoverable. But because of this, now you can have a group that spend 10min spanking the boss, or a group that spend 15min or even more on the same boss. It's part of the reason why Nier raid was a slog.

Alliance raid for all intend and purpose are "casual" content, and it comes with all the good and the bad that associate with that label. It's not easy (or even feasible) to turn it into something else, and a few time SE tried the reaction definitely weren't good.