Did SE threaten to not make ultimates anymore?

Or am I reading too much into Yoship's "If you use cheats in hard content, what is the point" remark in his statement?

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Originally Posted by _forgotten

Or am I reading too much into Yoship's "If you use cheats in hard content, what is the point" remark in his statement?

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This may have been some emotion. I would feel similar if I was on a dev team and players just cheated through my content while I spent however many hours developing a raid for players who want "hard content", only to get slapped in the face afterwords.

putting words in people's mouths I see, as usual with this community. Its just literally a self-reflective thought he expressed regarding the integrity of creating this kind of content.

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Originally Posted by _forgotten

Or am I reading too much into Yoship's "If you use cheats in hard content, what is the point" remark in his statement?

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Good for him. Using add-ons in a game where it's scripted is really not needed and ruins the experience for everyone.

I'm waiting for bot checkers next. GO ON YOSHI!

No I totally get where he's coming from. But if these are the comments we're making, because of a handful of players. Their punishment better be on level with this sort of backlash to their gameplay.

Corporal punishment is never the answer.

Either that or "we will make more but we will no longer make them as hard". It honestly sounds like "were tired of rampart cheating in Savage and Ultimate after we design those to be beatable vanilla, so we might as well not bother designing precise high difficulty fights anymore if only people who even do it, do it unfairly." Which is understandable from creative point of view.

When's the next ultimate anyway? 7.1? Plenty of time to implement new QoL that should replace some third-party tools.
However, I'd welcome the resources they spend on ultimate difficulty to other parts of the game.

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Originally Posted by _forgotten

No I totally get where he's coming from. But if these are the comments we're making, because of a handful of players. Their punishment better be on level with this sort of backlash to their gameplay.

Corporal punishment is never the answer.

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Ppl have moaned for years there's no mods reading the EU forums.. he's just basically said he reads them.

He's made a game that can be cleared without add-ons and ppl have abused that. Shame really, good for him for standing up to his TOS.

I don't think this translates into a threat or him not making ultimates any more.

What I think he meant was "We work hard on this, for people whose express purpose is the challenge. If you use tools to remove the challenge and get an upper edge over your competitors, what was the point of us agreeing to make these fights? Who are we making it for?"

Because keep in mind, today it was 3rd Party tools. Back then, when UWU came out, people datamined the game to figure out mechanics.

And at that time, there were people who asked "Okay, so what was the point of making a harder fight designed to make you explore your options and figure things out if you're just going to circumvent it?"

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

putting words in people's mouths I see, as usual with this community. Its just literally a self-reflective thought he expressed regarding the integrity of creating this kind of content.

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They're not assuming. That's why there's a topic, asking if they're reading too much into it.

If anyone's outright putting words in other people's mouths it would be you.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

putting words in people's mouths I see, as usual with this community. Its just literally a self-reflective thought he expressed regarding the integrity of creating this kind of content.

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Pretty much going with this - I don't think it's made as an attempt at threat. It does feel more like self-reflection, and probably more importantly, an attempt at trying to position the community participating to actually reflect on how they approach content.

More a philosophical afterthought than a genuine tone for removing the content - It's easy to conflate the two though, depending on the mentality that you go into the post with.

I wouldn't think too much into it - I think regardless we're still a long stretch away from them genuinely considering to drop ultimate.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

I don't think this translates into a threat or him not making ultimates any more.

What I think he meant was "We work hard on this, for people whose express purpose is the challenge. If you use tools to remove the challenge and get an upper edge over your competitors, what was the point of us agreeing to make these fights? Who are we making it for?"

Because keep in mind, today it was 3rd Party tools. Back then, when UWU came out, people datamined the game to figure out mechanics.

And at that time, there were people who asked "Okay, so what was the point of making a harder fight designed to make you explore your options and figure things out if you're just going to circumvent it?"

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I totally agree with this. Yoshis a gamer like us. Things are designed around learning not automation. Add-ons just ruin the fun.

they will never stop making ultimates

everyone is reading too much into it

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

they will never stop making ultimates

everyone is reading too much into it

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It's possible. I mean, barely 3% of the playerbase touches them, so losing ultimates really only effects that 3%, and not anybody else.

I think Yoshi made this statement towards cheaters or would be cheaters. Basically saying there's no point in playing hard content if you have to cheat to win. That's my guess at least. If I'm guessing correctly, then I completely agree with him.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

It's possible. I mean, barely 3% of the playerbase touches them, so losing ultimates really only effects that 3%, and not anybody else.

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they would have never made them in the first place if thats the expected engagement

far more people than you think touch the content

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Originally Posted by Leifei

I think Yoshi made this statement towards cheaters or would be cheaters. Basically saying there's no point in playing hard content if you have to cheat to win. That's my guess at least. If I'm guessing correctly, then I completely agree with him.

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Either that, or wondering what the point of making the content is if people are just going to cheat to do it.

Either way, I can understand his frustration at having his team make something, that probably takes much more effort to create than other parts of the game, and having people not even attempt to do it in the way it was meant to be played, clearing it easily and then complaining there isn't anything hard for them to do.

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Originally Posted by Leifei

I think Yoshi made this statement towards cheaters or would be cheaters. Basically saying there's no point in playing hard content if you have to cheat to win. That's my guess at least. If I'm guessing correctly, then I completely agree with him.

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I think so too. I've noticed they are trying to change things per instance - the recent raid is one if them. I hope they really reinforce their TOS in the 7.0 revamp. The fights are so scripted.

if they're going to keep making them like the last two, I'm on board with the idea
stop making ludicrous stuff for a super minority and put those resources somewhere useful

If they're going to learn from the whole "why is everyone cheating to get clears?" and "why were the first three ultimates so much more successful?"
perhaps questioning will be good for him anyways

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Originally Posted by DivineP

I totally agree with this. Yoshis a gamer like us. Things are designed around learning not automation. Add-ons just ruin the fun.

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Correction: Specific add-ons ruin the fun.

The overwhelming majority of add-ons, plugins and mods are simple quality of life upgrades or purely cosmetic. What's made third party plugins become so prevalent is they address long standing issues with the game Square Enix simply refused to or set it as low priority. Is it not a little convenient things like being able to highlight physical and magical damage or having buff timers displayed on the party list were implemented immediately after Dragonsong highlighted them yet have been asked about for years prior. This sort of response outright encourages people to keep pushing those boundaries because it's shown to actually produce results whereas being patient and asking leads to nothing.

Then you venture into parsers which impact the game is a massive way. Those rotation every one of us uses from the Balance? All mathed out via a parser. A game designed around hard enrages will naturally encourage the use of damage meters because people playing at that level want some idea of their performance. Without ACT, you literally have zero idea what are causing DPS issues. There's a reason practically every MMO except FFXIV has them officially implemented.

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Originally Posted by DivineP

Yoshis a gamer like us.

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As the kids say, "KEKW."

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Correction: Specific add-ons ruin the fun.

The overwhelming majority of add-ons, plugins and mods are simple quality of life upgrades or purely cosmetic. What's made third party plugins become so prevalent is they address long standing issues with the game Square Enix simply refused to or set it as low priority. Is it not a little convenient things like being able to highlight physical and magical damage or having buff timers displayed on the party list were implemented immediately after Dragonsong highlighted them yet have been asked about for years prior. This sort of response outright encourages people to keep pushing those boundaries because it's shown to actually produce results whereas being patient and asking leads to nothing.

Then you venture into parsers which impact the game is a massive way. Those rotation every one of us uses from the Balance? All mathed out via a parser. A game designed around hard enrages will naturally encourage the use of damage meters because people playing at that level want some idea of their performance. Without ACT, you literally have zero idea what are causing DPS issues. There's a reason practically every MMO except FFXIV has them officially implemented.

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Correction.

ALL add-ons are against the TOS.

He obviously wants his game to be experienced as he published it. You want to mod it? Then go look at the announcement.

He's told us he's going to revamp in 7.0.

He has shown adjustments with the timers recently.

I think its too early to tell if these events will lead to a stopping of the Raids. I think its likely just emotion talking, but can you blame him? When players ask for harder content, but seem so willing to cheat at the first chance, then you can see why one would ask what the point of all that effort is.

I suppose this could lead to such content being made less hard, but I do not think that's the issue here. It seems to me its less a case of "This content is too hard so we have to use mods and cheat" and more "We want the World First so we are gonna use mods to give us an advantage." Which I should say is still cheating even if others are doing it.

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Originally Posted by DivineP

Correction.

ALL add-ons are against the TOS.

He obviously wants his game to be experienced as he published it. You want to mod it? Then go look at the announcement.

He's told us he's going to revamp in 7.0.

He has shown adjustments with the timers recently.

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You do realize ACT and FFlogs have been existed and been known to Yoshida since their inception over eight years ago? Guess what they did about them? Precisely nothing because they literally can't without scanning your PC.

All of those add-ons I mentioned have hundreds of thousands of downloads nowadays. The sheer amount of money Square Enix will lose in a hypothetical scenario where they did manage to break them would be enormous. People will unsubscribe if mods, ACT and the like go away.

Yoshida has said no such thing about a revamp in 7.0. They're simply doing a graphical overhaul which they've already shown off. Nothing will change regarding add-ons and third party tools. They'll remain exactly as they have for years now: keep them to yourself. If your "adjustment with timers" is in reference to buff timers. That was added right after it became public with Dragonsong. Like I said, it isn't a good look for the dev team when a featured requested for years gets implemented only after a third party program does it and the users make it public.

To be completely honest... If the community asked me for super hard content and then cheated to clear it when I deliver, I'd also be thinking "what's the point then"

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

You do realize ACT and FFlogs have been existed and been known to Yoshida since their inception over eight years ago? Guess what they did about them? Precisely nothing because they literally can't without scanning your PC.

All of those add-ons I mentioned have hundreds of thousands of downloads nowadays. The sheer amount of money Square Enix will lose in a hypothetical scenario where they did manage to break them would be enormous. People will unsubscribe if mods, ACT and the like go away.

Yoshida has said no such thing about a revamp in 7.0. They're simply doing a graphical overhaul which they've already shown off. Nothing will change regarding add-ons and third party tools. They'll remain exactly as they have for years now: keep them to yourself. If your "adjustment with timers" is in reference to buff timers. That was added right after it became public with Dragonsong. Like I said, it isn't a good look for the dev team when a featured requested for years gets implemented only after a third party program does it and the users make it public.

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Yeah. At this point, SE should probably adapt and evolve instead of guilt tripping the player base every time mods and add-ons are brought up. Adding some requested features would benefit everyone. Many add-ons exist because the player base feels that various aspects of the game are lacking and could be improved. WoW officially has addons and yet mythic raiding world first races are viewed as an exciting event. Maybe not to me, but I get the appeal. At the end of the day, it comes down to game design. Improve the design and lessen the need for mods and add-ons, or just make add-ons official, and the problem solves itself.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

To be completely honest... If the community asked me for super hard content and then cheated to clear it when I deliver, I'd also be thinking "what's the point then"

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every single ultimate has been cleared with 3rd party addons in the WF kill (if we include the now redacted TOP kill)

you just wernt aware of it acutely until now

personally i wouldnt mind if they were more closer to tea/uwu rather than ucob/dsr play perfectly for 17-20 minutes

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

They're not assuming. That's why there's a topic, asking if they're reading too much into it.

If anyone's outright putting words in other people's mouths it would be you.

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Topic is "Did SE threaten to not make ultimates anymore" based on something Yoshida said. In the same post he made about disliking people putting words in his mouth. People just never get it do they

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

You do realize ACT and FFlogs have been existed and been known to Yoshida since their inception over eight years ago? Guess what they did about them? Precisely nothing because they literally can't without scanning your PC.

All of those add-ons I mentioned have hundreds of thousands of downloads nowadays. The sheer amount of money Square Enix will lose in a hypothetical scenario where they did manage to break them would be enormous. People will unsubscribe if mods, ACT and the like go away.

Yoshida has said no such thing about a revamp in 7.0. They're simply doing a graphical overhaul which they've already shown off. Nothing will change regarding add-ons and third party tools. They'll remain exactly as they have for years now: keep them to yourself. If your "adjustment with timers" is in reference to buff timers. That was added right after it became public with Dragonsong. Like I said, it isn't a good look for the dev team when a featured requested for years gets implemented only after a third party program does it and the users make it public.

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Indeed. I'm sorry chick, ACT, Zoom, your pretty add-on thing in 3D have always been against the TOS.

Ppl hid the minor ones but now, sadly, they are all coming to light.

Oh man they're looking for even more excuses to not add content lmao

I think thats Yoshi frustrated. Why do ultimates if you guys plan to skip the way we intended to play it?

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Originally Posted by Takamorisan

I think thats Yoshi frustrated. Why do ultimates if you guys plan to skip the way we intended to play it?

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Agreed. I bet it costs so many development hours.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

I don't think this translates into a threat or him not making ultimates any more.

What I think he meant was "We work hard on this, for people whose express purpose is the challenge. If you use tools to remove the challenge and get an upper edge over your competitors, what was the point of us agreeing to make these fights? Who are we making it for?"

Because keep in mind, today it was 3rd Party tools. Back then, when UWU came out, people datamined the game to figure out mechanics.

And at that time, there were people who asked "Okay, so what was the point of making a harder fight designed to make you explore your options and figure things out if you're just going to circumvent it?"

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This and also what a couple other posters said that the same people doing this also cry that things aren't hard enough and they want harder content. I would seriously consider if the development was worth the reward in this case, too.

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Originally Posted by DivineP

I think so too. I've noticed they are trying to change things per instance - the recent raid is one if them. I hope they really reinforce their TOS in the 7.0 revamp. The fights are so scripted.

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Fights have been scripted in this game since the beginning of ARR. Learning the fights are basically like learning a dance, step by step. I doubt they'll change that now. As for the add-on discussion, I think people are fine to use them as long as said add-on isn't blatantly telling people where to stand, or what to do for mechanics. People that use add-ons like ACT and/or modifying the appearance of their character will be fine.

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Originally Posted by DivineP

Indeed. I'm sorry chick, ACT, Zoom, your pretty add-on thing in 3D have always been against the TOS.

Ppl hid the minor ones but now, sadly, they are all coming to light.

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You do realize nothing is going to change right? I look forward to your postings in 2 years when we have ultimate drama again

So it's fair the PC users can use add-ons and PlayStation users can't?

I doubt they will stop, because they also acknowledge players who do the fights fairly. It frustrated the team particularly hard because there was a massive backlash for the lack of 2 ultimates in Shadowbringers. I would not be surprised if they pushed Ultimates further down the priority list after this however.

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Originally Posted by DivineP

Indeed. I'm sorry chick, ACT, Zoom, your pretty add-on thing in 3D have always been against the TOS.

Ppl hid the minor ones but now, sadly, they are all coming to light.

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I never said they weren't? Just that most of them aren't ruining the game. A dress mod impacts literally nothing about your own gameplay experience yet you lumped it together with zoom hacking.

Are they against the ToS? Yes. I never said otherwise. FFlogs and ACT always have been and the dev team has done nothing about them except to say don't mention them publicly. That policy isn't going to change today, tomorrow or when 7.0 drops.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I never said they weren't? Just that most of them aren't ruining the game. A dress mod impacts literally nothing about your own gameplay experience yet you lumped it together with zoom hacking.

Are they against the ToS? Yes. I never said otherwise. FFlogs and ACT always have been and the dev team has done nothing about them except to say don't mention them publicly. That policy isn't going to change today, tomorrow or when 7.0 drops.

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Yoshis has just took his stance on ALL add-ons, he wants you to experience his game as published. He's said he reads stuff for feedback, so.. :)