Conflicted with new PLD 6.3

As the title said, I'm conflicted with PLD 4.0. Here's what I currently like/dislike about the rework:

Pros:

• The "burst" phase of PLD feels shorter than the rest of the tanks, allowing you to fill in the gaps with whatever the fight needs

• I actually have a reason to use holy circle now

• The rotation became simpler and at least at level 90 your requiescat phase isn't spamming holy spirit, just confi spam

• Damage mitigation's nicer. Now holy sheltron isn't a dungeon meme and it's actually pretty helpful with the current (and past) raid tier and it's addiction to DoTs

• Bulwark's back baby. One of the main unique things about PLD (higher block chance) is back and definitely more noticeable than before

• PLD is easier for people to get into

Cons:

• The job feels... too simple? Too easy? Something about it just feels weird with how old PLD was. Old PLD felt unique to the other tanks but this one feels too similar

• I'm a fan of DoTs. Every DoT minus circle of scorn was removed. That makes me sad. Figuring out the best way to upkeep the DoT on a fight was part of the fun

• The 2 minute burst meta. Even now I'm still not a fan. Plays too far into the "play perfect or don't bother". This is less so for this class and more for the general state of the game. I could talk about this 2 minute burst for hours but I'm getting off track

• The button bloat. This existed before the rework but it's even more ridiculous now. The 123 combo can literally be one button now that goring blade isn't part of the rotation. You just press during FoF and forget about it.

• The damage of PLD. I get that the potency's moved around a bit but this is more noticeable in dungeon pulls than anything. With other tanks I could 12 AoE then run to the next pack doing their ranged attack to maintain aggro on whatever is about to be pulled. With this change I have to perform the 12 AoE + holy circle and even then someone's about to rip the aggro sometimes before I even get to leave. I don't know, it just feels weaker in the dungeon pulls than it used to

• Pre-80 PLD and to a certain extent pre-90 PLD doesn't feel that great. I can't put my finger on it, it kind of feels like the rework was based solely on endgame PLD and balancing for previous content was just an afterthought

That's my current thoughts on PLD. It feels kind of(?) nicer but at the cost of the uniqueness it used to have.

TLDR: Some PLD changes feel nice, others further exposed issues for PLD and tanks in general.

Paladin is still very unique.

After using it in the new EX 5 fight...I found this. I love that I can still DPS with incredibly high potency damage skills out of range.
-Holy Spirit or Holy Spirit + Divine might is great.
-Blade Combo is crazy powerful now, and I can use it from distance. No other tank can do that.
-Atonement has become Fel Cleave basically. It's a HUGE portion of your damage.
-FoF/Req are a great indicator for burst. As long as you mash those buttons no matter where you are in your combo as it doesn't break it....your fine.
-It's ok if you drift a little bit now. The only thing I notice that drifts is Circle of Scorn and Espacion.
-The flexibility of PLD is great now and it feels like i'm playing WAR...but not....if that makes sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ataren3

Cons:

• The job feels... too simple? Too easy? Something about it just feels weird with how old PLD was. Old PLD felt unique to the other tanks but this one feels too similar

• I'm a fan of DoTs. Every DoT minus circle of scorn was removed. That makes me sad. Figuring out the best way to upkeep the DoT on a fight was part of the fun

• The damage of PLD. I get that the potency's moved around a bit but this is more noticeable in dungeon pulls than anything. With other tanks I could 12 AoE then run to the next pack doing their ranged attack to maintain aggro on whatever is about to be pulled. With this change I have to perform the 12 AoE + holy circle and even then someone's about to rip the aggro sometimes before I even get to leave. I don't know, it just feels weaker in the dungeon pulls than it used to

---

What made old PLD more complicated? Most of the time, you wanted Goring Blade up, so that is the first thing you do, then you just go through your rotation as normal. Even if you needed to alter it, you were bound by the cooldowns of FoF AND Requiescat, so, whilst you could push your rotation back, you couldn't really pull it forwards. This then continues on, did you really manage your DoT? You had the Goring Blade DoT twice in FoF and then an upgraded on in BoV under Requiescat. Everything lined up so were you really maintaining it, or was it just a consequence of your rotation?

Just looking at unbuffed potency, PLD has the strongest 12 AoE at 270 total potency, the rest are 260. Warrior and DRK have the benefit of a damage buff, which brings the potency up to 286. This is not a massive difference and is not the cause of losing aggro. It is more likely to be things like Flood of Shadow or Orogeny. PLDs and GNB should go into the next pull with a primed Holy Circle/Fated Circle, both of which are 300 potency, which you can add another AoE ontop of that to generate alot more enmity. You also have to take into account the jobs of the DPS, can they use high potency actions during the pull, how long is it between packs (the more time walking, the more time they have to do damage and rip it off of you), of which, in the new dungeons, there are a couple of long walks. All this to say, I have not noticed an increase in DPS taking aggro whilst W2W pulling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sqwall

Paladin is still very unique.

After using it in the new EX 5 fight...I found this. I love that I can still DPS with incredibly high potency damage skills out of range.
-Holy Spirit or Holy Spirit + Divine might is great.
-Blade Combo is crazy powerful now, and I can use it from distance. No other tank can do that.
-Atonement has become Fel Cleave basically. It's a HUGE portion of your damage.
-FoF/Req are a great indicator for burst. As long as you mash those buttons no matter where you are in your combo as it doesn't break it....your fine.
-It's ok if you drift a little bit now. The only thing I notice that drifts is Circle of Scorn and Espacion.
-The flexibility of PLD is great now and it feels like i'm playing WAR...but not....if that makes sense.

---

I never liked the fact that PLD got reworked but i just cannot understand the "benefits" of these things you say.

1. getting divine might is good that i approve
2. Blade combo was always powerful, sure not as powerful as now but that was because PLD was not a burst tank, i will NEVER understand the point of "PLD can do damage out of melee range, no other tanks/melees can do that" since a good player will NEVER leave melee range and even if they do a good tank can time their GCD so they don't actually lose any GCD:s, so this is a bad players defense for playing PLD, especially when devs design fights around uptime...
3. Atonement is not even close being fell cleave, they REDUCED its potency in the rework and it doesn't do more damage than royal authority, it does the exact same.
4. FoF and Req were always a good indicator for a burst, you ALWAYS press those buttons when they came off CD so the rework changed nothing, this is how it works for every other tank and even DPS aswell.
5. Its NEVER ok to drift in the current 2 min burst meta especially, it might be little more forgiving, but its never ok to drift.
6. I don't really get why people say its more flexible now, PLD was really flexible before rework since you can just leave 1-2 atonements out of your rotation if you missed 1-2 GCD:s, did it feel good to miss them? ofc not, but it was always flexible, it was not really that strict of a job at all since it has the atonement stacks

not here to argue or cause chaos for the sake of it, but i think people are praising this rework for dumb reasons and i think the rework itself is really badly done.

Why is FoF even an ability anymore? you use 50% of the duration on Req so it just feels bad that you use buff ability to buff an buff ability.
Confiteror felt like a finisher for Req burst so it feels really weird and bad to use it immediately and entirely on the Req burst, making Holy spirit just a weird ability, a "ranged atonement" IMO.
People praise the Bulwark way too much, people hated Sheltron but somehow they love bulwark when its just worse sheltron, 10 sec quaranteed blocks with 90 sec CD is just bad, sure its an extra cooldown, but the fact that people hated sheltron so much but love bulwark is just absurd to me.

these are just some of the problems i find with PLD, i miss the old DoT PLD and i get so frustrated when people say "magic rotation is the gimmick of PLD" makes it sound like PLD is not even a job before they get holy spirit at level 64(?) and Req at level 70 AND the lore in the game is that we are a GLADIATOR that BECOMES a PLD, like how in MNK role quest WoL is the only one who can beat the bad guy when all the Monk NPC:s failed because we are a PUGILIST who becomes a MONK, so we still use our PGL moves mixed with MNK chakras. so for me the goring blade DoT made sense since your GLA bladeworks made the opponent bleed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sebs

I never liked the fact that PLD got reworked but i just cannot understand the "benefits" of these things you say.

6. I don't really get why people say its more flexible now, PLD was really flexible before rework since you can just leave 1-2 atonements out of your rotation if you missed 1-2 GCD:s, did it feel good to miss them? ofc not, but it was always flexible, it was not really that strict of a job at all since it has the atonement stacks

not here to argue or cause chaos for the sake of it, but i think people are praising this rework for dumb reasons and i think the rework itself is really badly done.

Why is FoF even an ability anymore? you use 50% of the duration on Req so it just feels bad that you use buff ability to buff an buff ability.
People praise the Bulwark way too much, people hated Sheltron but somehow they love bulwark when its just worse sheltron, 10 sec quaranteed blocks with 90 sec CD is just bad, sure its an extra cooldown, but the fact that people hated sheltron so much but love bulwark is just absurd to me.

these are just some of the problems i find with PLD, i miss the old DoT PLD and i get so frustrated when people say "magic rotation is the gimmick of PLD" makes it sound like PLD is not even a job before they get holy spirit at level 64(?).

---

I still don't really like that even now with PLD. I hate the fact that it's more optimal to literally drop atonement stacks specifically because it'll drift your stuff along with everyone else. I can't really think of any other class that willingly drops remaining resource stacks and it doesn't feel nice.

To be devil's advocate for FoF my guess is it's still there for your AoE in dungeons to do more damage. The same could be asked why GNB has No mercy when you literally use it to spam through your cartridges and toss a couple DoTs on the boss. Still doesn't feel great with either because it isn't an insignificant damage increase

I liked old sheltron and I like new sheltron in that it conforms to one thing PLD really suffered from: DoT damage. Every other tank would be perfectly fine with DoTs, either through self sustain, extra mit, or a full on mana shield. Paladin was shafted in that your regular mit (sheltron) didn't care about the DoT damage. I'm just glad bulwark exposed part of what made PLD unique way back in A Realm Reborn which was higher block chance; block's really just become a flat mitigation though and I wish it was more prominent or unique.

I'm also not a fan of the defense of "PLD's main thing is its magic rotation". It really isn't. Go back and play PLD in level 63 and below. You don't get your magic rotation until at least 64 when you can use holy spirit (but really it's 68 when you get requiescat making holy spirit spam worth it). If PLD really had a magic rotation it would start pre-50, preferably within the first 10 levels of unlocking the role.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Just looking at unbuffed potency, PLD has the strongest 12 AoE at 270 total potency, the rest are 260. Warrior and DRK have the benefit of a damage buff, which brings the potency up to 286. This is not a massive difference and is not the cause of losing aggro. It is more likely to be things like Flood of Shadow or Orogeny.

---

It could very likely be a mix between SkS 2.5 PLD now available making it feel slower plus being used to DRK's dungeon pulls. DRK is the only tank with an oGCD AoE that you can kind of use as often as you want, and isn't limited by recast time.

As for the old rotation it was a bit of both. Maintaining the DoT was both a consequence of your rotation like MNK & DRG but with this current tier it was fun figuring out if it would be worth reapplying the DoT so it falls off or fore-go that for your normal 123 as the boss becomes un-targetable, just like most melee, BLM, BRD, Healers, & GNB. Now that parts gone.

I get why they remove DoTs and I can see why some people aren't fans of them. Consistent DoTs like Healers, most melee, BRD, PLD, and BLM are something that falls on the player to manage, and managing that alongside your resource, 2 minute bursts, what mechanics are going on (whether you need to heal someone or not), etc. can get pretty hectic and having that DoT fall of means an extra GCD to reapply. Two if you're BRD. I'm just not a fan of them being so set in removing all these consistent DoTs for classes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ataren3

I still don't really like that even now with PLD. I hate the fact that it's more optimal to literally drop atonement stacks specifically because it'll drift your stuff along with everyone else. I can't really think of any other class that willingly drops remaining resource stacks and it doesn't feel nice.

To be devil's advocate for FoF my guess is it's still there for your AoE in dungeons to do more damage. The same could be asked why GNB has No mercy when you literally use it to spam through your cartridges and toss a couple DoTs on the boss. Still doesn't feel great with either because it isn't an insignificant damage increase

---

The solution is dead simple, so it doesn't surprise me Square-Enix didn't think of it.

Req is now simply a trait upgrade to FoF. Bam, done. Press button, receive 25% more damage. At level 68 (or whenever, Req and all of the spells should probably be 50-60 material), pressing the button also gives you the Req buff. At 80, you can use Confiteor instead of Holy Spirit for one of those charges. At 90, you use all of the charges on Confiteor combo. Additionally, replace the FoF/Req button with Confiteor and the Blades spells when you have the Ready to Confiteor buff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gserpent

The solution is dead simple, so it doesn't surprise me Square-Enix didn't think of it.

Req is now simply a trait upgrade to FoF. Bam, done. Press button, receive 25% more damage. At level 68 (or whenever, Req and all of the spells should probably be 50-60 material), pressing the button also gives you the Req buff. At 80, you can use Confiteor instead of Holy Spirit for one of those charges. At 90, you use all of the charges on Confiteor combo. Additionally, replace the FoF/Req button with Confiteor and the Blades spells when you have the Ready to Confiteor buff.

---

I think a while back I said I'd be disappointed about goring blade giving you 30 seconds of Fight or flight like warrior, you could stack it up to 60 It's funny how Goring blade got something way more lazier done to it, now I'm actually wanting goring blade to give you a damage buff similar to warrior... Just liked having the different combo on PLD.

Req/fof both existing at the same time feel really awkward for the Job, I don't like constantly weaving on jobs, I don't like how FOF is a set timer either, I rather just have a stack system at this point or a buff that can be stacked, its also not like PLD's got a lot of space currently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rithy255

I think a while back I said I'd be disappointed about goring blade giving you 30 seconds of Fight or flight like warrior, you could stack it up to 60 It's funny how Goring blade got something way more lazier done to it, now I'm actually wanting goring blade to give you a damage buff similar to warrior... Just liked having the different combo on PLD.

Req/fof both existing at the same time feel really awkward for the Job, I don't like constantly weaving on jobs, I don't like how FOF is a set timer either, I rather just have a stack system at this point or a buff that can be stacked, its also not like PLD's got a lot of space currently.

---

Well they chose to keep FoF because reasons (lazy?), otherwise I would agree - just make Goring Blade a 10% damage up buff like WAR, increase base potencies as needed, and just have Req be "ranged inner release."

I got used to the PLD changes.. though they should tweek Req a bit more, so that Stacks only get used up by the Blades, not by Holy Spirit or Holy Circle.. funnily enough due to the Divine Might PLD Now has a 1-2-3 AoE Combo xD I like that.. but I have a lil gripe with the Atonement Spam.. I mean.. It's okay to get MP Back.. but ehh still having 1 Skill to only spam 3 times is monotonous.. on the otherhand you can't do Blades without Req aswell but I like that MP Management is a bit more pronounced^^

I got so conflicted with PLD since 6.2 I ended up playing DRK instead.

The rework in 6.3 felt more like a massive bandaid. But it’s a dirty one applied on a giant wound.

The job needs animations and VFX updates, it just feels bland outside of the Blades combo. Cover being either ignored or they don’t understand why it’s underused. Having both Req and FoF still together instead of making the whole bloody thing smoother instead of clunkier. I could go on but I doubt they’ll do something really significant at this rate.

Now imagine the carnage with the rework of DRG and AST. Gonna be bloody.

The other class that's getting a rework alongside DRG is AST, which, if you look at it's 2min window, kinda makes sense. However, considering the uhh... 'varied' reaction to PLD, shall we say, I have to wonder how the AST one will go. Considering it's low playrate compared to WHM, they probably look at it as 'we don't have much to lose, those players will just swap to WHM if they dont like it'.

Which all translates to 'AST cards now GCD, DRG jumps now GCD' and they call it a day

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuuZero

but ehh still having 1 Skill to only spam 3 times is monotonous.. on the otherhand you can't do Blades without Req aswell but I like that MP Management is a bit more pronounced^^

---

IIRC I found out that, if we changed it from 3 stacks of Sword Oath to 1, we'd get enough 'spare GCDs' from losing Atonements, that we'd fit an entire extra 123 combo, the Holy Spirit, and 1 Atonement, into the gap that was created. And if we were to make Atonement not break combo (as Holy Spirit now doesn't), and also change it's animation to be like, a spectral sword thrust so it's a ranged attack too, we'd have PLD be a quite unique tank, I think. A '5 step Combo' compared to the others having a '3 step', and those last 2 steps would be not only ranged (can shift around for uptime optimization), but also delayable (as long as you use them before your next Royal), leading to rotational versatility. I also think that while 'pressing your 123 an extra time per minute' would be ehhhhh, it's a lot more 'ehhhhh' to me, to press Atonement 3 times in a row. Especially with it's limp animation

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

IIRC I found out that, if we changed it from 3 stacks of Sword Oath to 1, we'd get enough 'spare GCDs' from losing Atonements, that we'd fit an entire extra 123 combo, the Holy Spirit, and 1 Atonement, into the gap that was created. And if we were to make Atonement not break combo (as Holy Spirit now doesn't), and also change it's animation to be like, a spectral sword thrust so it's a ranged attack too, we'd have PLD be a quite unique tank, I think. A '5 step Combo' compared to the others having a '3 step', and those last 2 steps would be not only ranged (can shift around for uptime optimization), but also delayable (as long as you use them before your next Royal), leading to rotational versatility. I also think that while 'pressing your 123 an extra time per minute' would be ehhhhh, it's a lot more 'ehhhhh' to me, to press Atonement 3 times in a row. Especially with it's limp animation

---

My Initial Response would've been "How about we get Old Sword Oath back?", like make it double your Auto-Attacks and give it a 10% Damage Boost to Weaponskills or something.. but thinking about it further I see multiple Points they could've worked on:

• make Expiacion Single Target and make it share the Cool Down Circle of Scorn (2 AoE OGCDs with one of them having the requirement for a Target feels redundant and clunky)
• remove or revert Goring Blade (a Single Target Burst Skill is nice but so was Spirits Within)
• with the 6.3 PLD Changes Requiescat Stacks should only be consumed by the Blades Combo, no Clemency, Holy Spirit or Holy Circle
• Divine Might should be stackable, at least up to 5 Stacks and should include Clemency
• Kill the Atonement Spam, It's fine for a Warrior to Spam Fell Cleave and Samurai is already spamming Shinten like a Bitch, Paladin shouldn't that kind of same playstyle

that be my Ideas for Changes

Here's some Changes I wanna See generally, this is just my opinion right now, I want PLD to feel like a "Combo tank" with having different and seperate, combos somewhat like it used to with how you had two different finishers and atonement felt a lot less spammy as you didn't use it that much compared to now.

1. Free Up some space, Circle of scorn, FOF and some other abilities could be removed/reworked.
2. Add a Savage Blade > Goring Blade combo, this will give you the effect of "fight or flight" for 30 seconds, which can be stacked up to 60 seconds, this could either boost damage, slightly speed up skill speed & spell speed or do a bit of both, this means removing FOF button, but making PLD's goring blade have purpose.
3. Reduce atonement down to 2 Uses, Allow doing two atonements to give you one stack of "Divine might", You can hold up to 2 Stacks of Divine might now, Atonement doesn't break combo also and gives out more MP.
4. Improve Niche Abilities, Cover you could extend the range, make it cost no gauge and share any healing effect the PLD gives out, Clemency you could make a OGCD targetable heal that coosts around 3000 MP, so you could still spam it in situations at the risk of your own DPS by having no MP for spells this makes MP management more of a thing on PLD, Shield Bash could be a OGCD stun that does damage with two charges that stuns aoe (Its even OGCD in pvp I believe), Passage of arms should be reworked, Divine veil could give out a regen instead of that 400 upfront healing, last but not least Oath gauge should feel more rewarding to the Job, auto attacks? My idea is using shelltron/Sentinel should reward you with extra Gauge.
5. Make the Job FUN at early levels, I really don't get why a lot of jobs got to feel awful to play until your in stormblood/shadowbringers... Just makes synching down feel terrible.


On point 4, I might see how we could also nerf somethings as all those changes complied together would make PLD really strong, many ideas like Removing self healing from magic attacks and only giving you a bit on atonements (200?) or something, I don't know I want to see PLD as a strong support/utility tank without Making it too powerful, I think one thing is we could have the longest Invul still to counter some strengths, also PLD should be very slightly behind DRK/GNB (but not to the point where PLD becomes useless).

I know most people might not agree with every change I've listed but Ideally we all want better for current PLD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rithy255

5. Make the Job FUN at early levels, I really don't get why a lot of jobs got to feel awful to play until your in stormblood/shadowbringers... Just makes synching down feel terrible.

---

It's actually a little baffling at how... bad PLD feels at low levels. It was an OG tank alongside WAR and it just feels really, really bad.