[NIN] Enhanced Meisui is a wasted slot...

Should be replaced with something like "Enhanced Kassatsu II", granting a 2nd charge of Kassatsu for moar deeps.

One combo gives you 25 Ninki, you need 50 for any spender. There is no reason to use Meisui. Period. Especially if you make proper use of your rotation for Suiton/Trick Attack, into your heavier Mudra spenders using Kassatsu, and then following up with Doton/Raiton/Katon... you have endless amounts of power without the need for Meisui.

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Originally Posted by Baklavah

Should be replaced with something like "Enhanced Kassatsu II", granting a 2nd charge of Kassatsu for moar deeps.

One combo gives you 25 Ninki, you need 50 for any spender. There is no reason to use Meisui. Period. Especially if you make proper use of your rotation for Suiton/Trick Attack, into your heavier Mudra spenders using Kassatsu, and then following up with Doton/Raiton/Katon... you have endless amounts of power without the need for Meisui.

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lolwut.

tenchar

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Originally Posted by Baklavah

Should be replaced with something like "Enhanced Kassatsu II", granting a 2nd charge of Kassatsu for moar deeps.

One combo gives you 25 Ninki, you need 50 for any spender. There is no reason to use Meisui. Period. Especially if you make proper use of your rotation for Suiton/Trick Attack, into your heavier Mudra spenders using Kassatsu, and then following up with Doton/Raiton/Katon... you have endless amounts of power without the need for Meisui.

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Meisui gives another powerful Suiton follow-up per minute. It is not redundant with Trick Attack; you stagger the two follow-ups. It is a significant gain over the next best filler, Raiton, even after it gains its follow-up in Raijuu.

My question would be, if you think that Meisui is a waste of an ability, what exactly are you doing with your Suiton from Ten Chi Jin every 2 minutes?

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

My question would be, if you think that Meisui is a waste of an ability, what exactly are you doing with your Suiton from Ten Chi Jin every 2 minutes?

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Well if TCJ didn't do Suiton via T-C-J inputs, then Meisui wouldn't exist. That being said, it does add complexity to the burst window by playing around with ninki in order to avoid overcapping.

I don't have anything to add regarding the Meisui thing...

...but can we stop pretending like any trait / ability takes a "slot" that can be "wasted" when there are levels where jobs learn multiple skills and/or traits at once?

I don't trust single target doton Ninjas.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

I don't trust single target doton Ninjas.

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Lol .... is basically that first thing I thought of when I read it . Even in Aoe I would still do chi ten jin with TCJ to get 50 ninki from meisui to use bunshin/HfM especially after getting Hollow Nozuchi

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

I don't trust single target doton Ninjas.

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I agree and I don't do this. I do, however, have a possibly silly question.

If Doton crits on every tick, would it not outdamage critted Raiton? If it crits on only some ticks, would it not outdamage normal Raiton? In both cases we're assuming the target never left Doton AoE ofc.
Still, there's something wrong about using Doton on a single target and it disgusts me whenever I see it.

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Originally Posted by Bake192

I agree and I don't do this. I do, however, have a possibly silly question.

If Doton crits on every tick, would it not outdamage critted Raiton? If it crits on only some ticks, would it not outdamage normal Raiton? In both cases we're assuming the target never left Doton AoE ofc.
Still, there's something wrong about using Doton on a single target and it disgusts me whenever I see it.

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The first part, we don't even need to calculate. If you crit every DoT of Doton, then add the result, it is the same as adding them all up, then critting them. Doton is weaker than Raition, so if both crit, Raiton will still be stronger.

As for Doton part critting and Raiton not critting, each crit from Doton is an extra 40 potency (1.5 multiplier). Raiton is 170 potency over Doton, so that extra potency has to come from crits. Comparing, 5 DoT ticks are needed, out of a total of 6 to bring a partial crit Doton above Raiton. Doton would have 680 potency to Raiton's 650. So, unless you have ~83% crit rate, it isn't coming close. This is even before you take into account the extra Mudra to cast Doton and ignoring the Raiju follow up.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

The first part, we don't even need to calculate. If you crit every DoT of Doton, then add the result, it is the same as adding them all up, then critting them. Doton is weaker than Raition, so if both crit, Raiton will still be stronger.

As for Doton part critting and Raiton not critting, each crit from Doton is an extra 40 potency (1.5 multiplier). Raiton is 170 potency over Doton, so that extra potency has to come from crits. Comparing, 5 DoT ticks are needed, out of a total of 6 to bring a partial crit Doton above Raiton. Doton would have 680 potency to Raiton's 650. So, unless you have ~83% crit rate, it isn't coming close. This is even before you take into account the extra Mudra to cast Doton and ignoring the Raiju follow up.

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Great, we have a clear winner then.

I do kind of feel like they could just cut out the extra steps and replace Meisui with a new water themed offensive ability, since there's no scenario where you'd want to use the 50 ninki for anything else.

However, this wouldn't save any buttons, and it would make managing your ninki more braindead, so maybe it would be best to leave it as it is. I still think Enhanced Bhavacakra should have a different, water themed animation though.

The problem is that changing Meisui means changing Ten Chi Jin - Meisui makes the final Suiton of the single-target TCJ feel a bit less weird.

I don't like a whole button only being there to make another button (and one that I really like) less weird, but it is what it is.

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

The problem is that changing Meisui means changing Ten Chi Jin - Meisui makes the final Suiton of the single-target TCJ feel a bit less weird.

I don't like a whole button only being there to make another button (and one that I really like) less weird, but it is what it is.

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The most straight-forward resolution would be to make Meisui replace Ten Chi Jin for 30s and reduce its recast to 1m30s. This would cement its place as "the button you press to burn your extra Suiton from TCJ" and eliminate a keybind. Some people will lose a few uses from messing up but they could/should get used to executing their Ten Chi Jin > Meisui sequence correctly. For more forgiving timing, make Meisui replace Ten Chi Jin for 60s and reduce its recast to 60s. (Strictly speaking, the recast could be as low as 1s; the only thing that matters is that the replacement time and recast do not total more than 120s)

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Originally Posted by Rongway

The most straight-forward resolution would be to make Meisui replace Ten Chi Jin for 30s and reduce its recast to 1m30s. This would cement its place as "the button you press to burn your extra Suiton from TCJ" and eliminate a keybind. Some people will lose a few uses from messing up but they could/should get used to executing their Ten Chi Jin > Meisui sequence correctly. For more forgiving timing, make Meisui replace Ten Chi Jin for 60s and reduce its recast to 60s. (Strictly speaking, the recast could be as low as 1s; the only thing that matters is that the replacement time and recast do not total more than 120s)

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You wouldn't even need to worry about that. TCJ's timer will start cooling upon activation, not only after Suiton has faded, regardless of whether its button is later replaced by Meisui.

That said, locking Meisui behind TCJ may not be ideal for QoL, especially in the open world or dungeon-running.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You wouldn't even need to worry about that. TCJ's timer will start cooling upon activation, not only after Suiton has faded, regardless of whether its button is later replaced by Meisui.

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The recast of Meisui, not TCJ. The TCJ recast can stay 120s, obviously. But the combined replacement period plus recast for Meisui has to be no more than 120s because Meisui needs to be usable again at the next TCJ.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That said, locking Meisui behind TCJ may not be ideal for QoL, especially in the open world or dungeon-running.

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What QoL does it serve to keep them two separate buttons though? Suiton only lasts 20s, so a 30s replacement period covers the entirety of Suiton's duration. A longer replacement period or a separate button just allows someone who did the wrong triple jutsu sequence to reclaim a tiny bit of lost DPS by spending a real mudra charge on an extra unscripted Suiton. In the overworld things die so quickly it doesn't make a meaningful difference if you're forced to live with a Raiton instead of a Suiton+Meisui+Bhavacakra, and on dungeon trash you're not going to use single target jutsus until there's just one or two targets with low health anyway.

I just don't see the opportunities to use Meisui separately to be worth more than the convenience of marrying one two minute action to the other two minute action it's intended to follow.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

and on dungeon trash you're not going to use single target jutsus until there's just one or two targets with low health anyway..

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You don't have to just use TCJ on ST , go chi ten jin to get use Katon and meisei to spend on HfM or Bunshin which leads to even more aoe damage with PK and at least 3 bunshin activated Hakke Mujinsatsu hits that gain even more damage from Hollow Nozuchi when doton is down

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Originally Posted by Ilyn

You don't have to just use TCJ on ST , go chi ten jin to get use Katon and meisei to spend on HfM or Bunshin which leads to even more aoe damage with PK and at least 3 bunshin activated Hakke Mujinsatsu hits that gain even more damage from Hollow Nozuchi when doton is down

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1. Bunshin's copies of Hakke Mujinsatsu do not trigger Hollow Nozuchi.
   https://i.imgur.com/dhSuwPr.png
2. Bunshin and Phantom Kamaitachi are not relevant to this conversation because you don't get any extra Bunshin uses from getting more ninki. Your Bunshin uses are rate limited to one per 90s, and so we only care about extra Hellfrog Media or Bhavacakras the extra ninki grant you.
3. You've taken my comment out of context: it specifically regards what you would do with Meisui on trash if you did not pair it with Ten Chi Jin.

If you don't use Meisui with Ten Chi Jin, you're not going to drop a Katon just so you can Suiton for the ninki. On a group of three targets, Katon+Nozuchi is 1,200p/2.5s = 480 p/s and Katon alone is 1,050p/2.5s = 420 p/s. Still working with a group of three targets, Suiton+Meisui+Bhavacakra is 1,000p / 3.0s ≈ 333 p/s and Suiton+Meisui+HellfrogMedium is 980p / 3.0s ≈ 327p/s. The disparity only grows larger as you add more targets.

So my statement, taken in context, stands.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

1. Bunshin's copies of Hakke Mujinsatsu do not trigger Hollow Nozuchi.
   https://i.imgur.com/dhSuwPr.png
2. Bunshin and Phantom Kamaitachi are not relevant to this conversation because you don't get any extra Bunshin uses from getting more ninki. Your Bunshin uses are rate limited to one per 90s, and so we only care about extra Hellfrog Media or Bhavacakras the extra ninki grant you.
3. You've taken my comment out of context: it specifically regards what you would do with Meisui on trash if you did not pair it with Ten Chi Jin.

If you don't use Meisui with Ten Chi Jin, you're not going to drop a Katon just so you can Suiton for the ninki. On a group of three targets, Katon+Nozuchi is 1,200p/2.5s = 480 p/s and Katon alone is 1,050p/2.5s = 420 p/s. Still working with a group of three targets, Suiton+Meisui+Bhavacakra is 1,000p / 3.0s ≈ 333 p/s and Suiton+Meisui+HellfrogMedium is 980p / 3.0s ≈ 327p/s. The disparity only grows larger as you add more targets.

So my statement, taken in context, stands.

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Ya I did my bad lol

I know copies don't trigger HN , I merely mean you can use TCJ to quickly setup your self up to use Bunshin while throwing out an extra Katon into the mix at the start of a w2w . Pressing it as C T J to get Fumi/Katon/Suiton to use for Meisui/Bunshin and then use Mug/PK for an extra Hfm in your Bunshin phase .

@ as far as your 3rd statement it's hypothetical since one works off the other , most of the time I don't really use TCJ/Mei in trash because my CD won't be reset by the time we reach a boss

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Originally Posted by Rongway

The recast of Meisui, not TCJ. The TCJ recast can stay 120s, obviously. But the combined replacement period plus recast for Meisui has to be no more than 120s because Meisui needs to be usable again at the next TCJ.

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So, first off, unlocking buffs have zero effect on the timer of the skill they unlock. Again, you do not need to worry about "that the replacement time and recast do not total more than 120s." The replacement does not affect the recast time, nor does it delay the ability to activate it. It's not like Trick Attack was ever delayed by the 20s of Suiton, so it makes no sense to reduce the unlocked skill's recast time by the duration of the unlock buff or replacement period (which are the same thing, except in that the latter need not appear on your buff bar).

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What QoL does it serve to keep them two separate buttons though?

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The fact that, where desynced or the current enemy won't live long enough to make use of it, you don't need to blow Trick Attack and can instead spend it on an additional Hellfrog/Bhav. Again, open-world and dungeons; they're not exactly places where there is no downtime nor where all actions happen in lockstep.

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Suiton only lasts 20s, so a 30s replacement period covers the entirety of Suiton's duration.

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??? I've not said otherwise. Why mention this?

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A longer replacement period or a separate button just allows someone who did the wrong triple jutsu sequence to reclaim a tiny bit of lost DPS by spending a real mudra charge on an extra unscripted Suiton.

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And that's harmful why?

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In the overworld things die so quickly it doesn't make a meaningful difference if you're forced to live with a Raiton instead of a Suiton+Meisui+Bhavacakra, and on dungeon trash you're not going to use single target jutsus until there's just one or two targets with low health anyway.

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Fair enough. In the open world, I just happen to like (A) Meisui actually seeming to exist and (B) being able to use TCJ and TA separately, as things otherwise tend to die even before one can get the Suiton off. That's ultimately what this comes down to.

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I just don't see the opportunities to use Meisui separately to be worth more than the convenience of marrying one two minute action to the other two minute action it's intended to follow.

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Then just split the difference. Have them merge unless one places Meisui on their bars. That should have been the case with most consolidation from the start. No need to strip away freedom from those who want it, nor take up space for those who don't.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So, first off, unlocking buffs have zero effect on the timer of the skill they unlock. Again, you do not need to worry about "that the replacement time and recast do not total more than 120s." The replacement does not affect the recast time, nor does it delay the ability to activate it. It's not like Trick Attack was ever delayed by the 20s of Suiton, so it makes no sense to reduce the unlocked skill's recast time by the duration of the unlock buff or replacement period (which are the same thing, except in that the latter need not appear on your buff bar).

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My point in re: the 120s total is if you marry Meisui to Ten Chi Jin but you do not reduce Meisui's cooldown by the replacement duration, then it will be possible for Meisui not to be ready the next time you use Ten Chi Jin. If you marry them, then the intent is that Meisui should be usable every time Ten Chi Jin is usable, rather than tracking its own two minute timer. Leaving Meisui on its own two minute timer leaves you with the possibility of using Meisui in the last second of the replacement period, and then the next time you use Ten Chi Jin it won't be usable until the last second of that replacement period. Therefore, you should reduce Meisui's recast timer by the duration that it replaces Ten Chi Jin so that it is always ready after using Ten Chi Jin. Really you could even just reduce Meisui's recast to 1s, since it would consume whatever Meisui Ready buff Ten Chi Jin granted.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

??? I've not said otherwise. Why mention this?

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You said:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That said, locking Meisui behind TCJ may not be ideal for QoL, especially in the open world or dungeon-running.

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to which I replied:

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Originally Posted by Rongway

What QoL does it serve to keep them two separate buttons though? Suiton only lasts 20s, so a 30s replacement period covers the entirety of Suiton's duration.

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As in, locking Meisui behind TCJ would still allow you to use Meisui some time during the 20s that TCJ's Suiton lasts, and it would even be long enough to cover the non-optimal use of a real mudra charge to avoid losing a use of Meisui. So marrying them would not present a significant QoL detriment.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

As in, locking Meisui behind TCJ would still allow you to use Meisui some time during the 20s that TCJ's Suiton lasts, and it would even be long enough to cover the non-optimal use of a real mudra charge to avoid losing a use of Meisui. So marrying them would not present a significant QoL detriment.

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No one would reasonably think that your replacement would be even more restrictive than is presently the case. That doesn't give further merit to the change, though; it just reduces its cost. The merit is the option to save a hotbar slot, and that alone.

To you, being able to use Meisui outside of TCJ is not worth the button. To me, it is, hence my suggesting that Meisui still be placeable on one's hotbar even after having TCJ swap to Meisui for 20-30s after it applies Suiton.

I.e., sure, make the consolidation, but do NOT place the usual "※This action cannot be assigned to a hotbar" on it. The TCJ -> Meisui consolidation should merely be a feature of TCJ, as might be done with any consolidation plugin, not a restriction on Meisui.