I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

I believe currently this is the most pressing issue in the entire game that needs to be addressed above everything else. That is my feedback.

it may well be the most pressing issue in the entire game, zero hyperbole, if the current trend keeps up then PF will be dead due to a complete lack of healers, its already bad now but what if it gets worse because SE keeps going on this track they've been trying to bulldoze their way along

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I believe currently this is the most pressing issue in the entire game that needs to be addressed above everything else. That is my feedback.

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I just want Stormblood SCH back.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I just want Stormblood SCH back.

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You mean early HW SCH, pinnacle of the job save for dissipation.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I believe currently this is the most pressing issue in the entire game that needs to be addressed above everything else. That is my feedback.

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You know, it's funny how healers went through all these different suggestions to address the role's issues - from increasing enemy damage to requiring more healing uptime with DoTs. All the other suggestions inevitably ended up having flaws - accessibility issue, increasing difficulty of raising the healing skill floor, etc.

In the end it comes back to the same original feedback -- boredom from using the same attack skill once healers reach a standard level of mastery because the amount of time that isn't requiring healing far outweighs the time the healer is actively healing. Healers need something else to do for the rest of that time - and the best way to address that is by adding the DPS skills that were taken away from them back into their toolkit. And this is the most reasonable suggestion because DPS skills is the lowest priority for a healer to maintain to ensure everyone survives. At the same time, it can become something that is just as involved as any other role the more familiar is with their job.

If SE is really worried that healers getting a DPS rotation is going to destroy high-end content by making it too difficult to beat enrage, they can just make the duration to reach enrage slightly longer than it is currently. It's not as if normal content really has enrage in the first place, and gear ilvl increases regardless, making it unnecessary to play flawlessly. After all, the difficulty of these fights will never be the same as they were after a couple of weeks, from both a healing standpoint and damage output standpoint for all party members. If casual players and high-end players can feel the boredom of not having much to do, perhaps it's time to redesign healer DPS skills as well.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

If SE is really worried that healers getting a DPS rotation is going to destroy high-end content by making it too difficult to beat enrage, they can just make the duration to reach enrage slightly longer than it is currently.

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I've made a thread with healer rework ideas, and in it a WHM idea. In that WHM idea I put extra effort (because I am WHM main, supposedly), so I assigned potencies, cooldowns and everything. By the end of it, I found that playing current GlareMage, that is, just refreshing the DOT when it falls off and then smashing Glare while it's up, would be a mere 60 potency behind what I calculated my 'new and improved rotation' to do, per minute. Not per GCD or anything, per minute. Over a 10 minute fight, that's 2 Glares. People doing 60ppm less because they don't want to press an extra button in their kit is not going to cause anyone to hit enrage, and if it does, Crit Variance (tm) probably played a much bigger hand in the problem. Casual players who don't want the horrible gamebreaking nightmare of 'a GCD that has a 15 second CD' added to their kit could ignore it, and just press Glare as they do now (or don't, as EX roulette occasionally reveals), and they'd still do like 99% of the damage potential of the 'more optimal rotation'.

Okay, so why would the 'optimal players' want to do the extra busywork of the 'optimal rotation'? Well, for one, because it's optimal. 'Because it do more damage' has been the reason behind a great many things we did over the years, including such weird stuff as 'Single Target Doton is a gain in Stormblood when using TCJ'. Secondly, while the 'damage' might be less than impressive, the side effect that extra GCD has of allowing faster access to a new, damage-neutral AOE heal, means you'd spend even less time wasting GCDs on Medica's and more on throwing natural disasters at the enemy. Casual players might even be incentivized to press their damage skills when they find out they can be an avatar of nature's wrath by doing so, who knows.

But yeh, it doesn't have to be designed so that 'spam glare' does trash damage under a new system. But what I will say while I'm here, is that there's been a non-zero number of times where I've zoned out and forgotten to heal and caused a wipe, entirely because 'Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare' is so repetitive, so uninspiring, and so... it blurs together so much, I lose track of where in the fight timeline I am, and so the damage catches me off guard. Not often enough to be a major issue, but it shouldn't happen. Rather than 'giving more time for the healer player to focus on healing', it's throwing off my internal timer and making me WORSE at healing! I doubt I'm the only one who has had this happen, maybe some people don't realize that's the reason they lost focus and let a wipe happen, but that doesn't mean it wasn't the reason all along, it probably just got brushed off with 'idk what happened lets go again'.

You know what I find hilarious about healers stuff about DPS? Literally not even 2 days ago I saw a thread on the WoW forums of healers complaining about how they have to dps and they just want to heal.

Granted I understand the complaints here, but I just found the whole thing pretty damn hilarious and I know for a fact if they ever give healers some kind of dps rotation the people who like pure healing are going to lose their minds. There's no winning for the devs on healers imo, at least not outside of JP (their healer community is plenty healthy.)

The idea of 'healer do damage' really got pushed super hard with M+ coming into the game there, a timer means that any source of damage is important. In raids, you could argue it's not as heavily pushed, as there's a lot more healing to be done there, I'm sure in mythic raids (idk I've never done one) there's probably almost zero time to DPS as a healer, unless you're one of the 'I heal by DPSing' healers. The real issue in that game I think is how it feels to 'heal only' as a class that's designed around doing damage to assist in it's healing. Holy Paladin gets HolyPower by using it's melee attacks, but you could get it from using Flash of Light or Holy Light on your Beacon. So your gameplay is... Holy Light spam on the tank for HolyPower, then Light of Dawn to AOE people...? Two buttons, basically, one to generate AOE heal resource, one to spend it. I ask myself 'why would someone want to play like that' and all I can come up with is 'they want to be told they're good at healing, but without putting in the effort to learn how to play their class properly'. It really doesn't make sense to me with any other explanation.

Also, I wonder, same as how I wonder for those kind of players in this game, if they 'just want to heal', should tanks lose their damage? Should Thunderclap and Keg Smash and such all have flat 'generates X threat' effects? The tanks play tank to mitigate, not do damage right? Same here, we don't need Fell Cleave or Primal Rend doing these big crits, that's a DPS's job. We should make FellCleave just generate threat and not do damage.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Also, I wonder, same as how I wonder for those kind of players in this game, if they 'just want to heal', should tanks lose their damage? The tanks play tank to mitigate, not do damage right? Same here, we don't need Fell Cleave or Primal Rend doing these big crits, that's a DPS's job. We should make FellCleave just generate threat and not do damage.

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I'd actually like to see this happen once. In single player content, all damage skills for tanks and healers function as they do now, but in group content they do no damage at all. All damage is done exclusively by dps.

As a healer who really likes doing dps in group content, I would not like it at all if this change took place and I would be against it, however having it actually happen for a short time only, I'd find amusing.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

You know what I find hilarious about healers stuff about DPS? Literally not even 2 days ago I saw a thread on the WoW forums of healers complaining about how they have to dps and they just want to heal.

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I specifically play and love FF14 because everybody, including healers, is expected to contribute to DPS in significant ways. Very few people want to be heal slaves, they are a loud minority. I do not miss heal slaves in any game. Almost everyone wants to hit enemies, one way or another.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I specifically play and love FF14 because everybody, including healers, is expected to contribute to DPS in significant ways. Very few people want to be heal slaves, they are a loud minority. I do not miss heal slaves in any game. Almost everyone wants to hit enemies, one way or another.

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While I embrace and accept this fact, I'd be one happy camper if they remake AST in 7.0 to focus their GCDs more on buffing allies than damaging enemies in a party setting.
I just really like the support niche, and having healers with different DPS approaches would be awesome.

Make WHM a proc-based nuke job!
Make SCH a DoT job!
Make AST a buff machine!
Make SGE's eukrasia better and more interesting!

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I believe currently this is the most pressing issue in the entire game that needs to be addressed above everything else. That is my feedback.

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maybe roll a DPS?

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Originally Posted by Tabmow

maybe roll a DPS?

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What if he just doesn’t want to be bored out of his skull when playing a job he wants to play?

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Originally Posted by Tabmow

maybe roll a DPS?

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You mean only one role gets to have fun? That's bad game design. Why would anyone want to tank or heal if they can't contribute to DPS in significant ways? No one wants to slave others. Tanking and healing is fun because we get to do other stuff on top of our DPS rotations and think about the fight in different ways.

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Originally Posted by Tabmow

maybe roll a DPS?

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Maybe return the actions that we used to have? The same actions that when they were removed in 5.0 caused the game to literally bleed healers overnight

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Originally Posted by Kansene

While I embrace and accept this fact, I'd be one happy camper if they remake AST in 7.0 to focus their GCDs more on buffing allies than damaging enemies in a party setting.
I just really like the support niche, and having healers with different DPS approaches would be awesome.

Make WHM a proc-based nuke job!
Make SCH a DoT job!
Make AST a buff machine!
Make SGE's eukrasia better and more interesting!

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I played one game where there was a support class whose core identity was providing buffs to the party, it was probably my favourite alt. the interesting thing was that those buffs were passive skills that were basically selected at the start and applied by that class . After that, this class was expected to DPS and heal in various degrees, depending upon the content.

Compared to the above, or even to its present state, I would definitely not want AST to be turned into a "buff machine".

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Originally Posted by Tabmow

maybe roll a DPS?

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"just play dps"

ah yes. Not like wanting a role type aka healers to just be better, the current state of healers being unappealing is why no one wants to really play them.

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I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

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Same. Honestly it isn’t even the fact that we just don’t have DPS tools, it’s that DPS is about the only engaging thing left to do.

My impossible dream would be that FF14 goes back and revamps all those old game systems. MP/TP management as a crucial part of your own gameplay loop with physical ranged having party resource buffs as an added bonus. Tanks having the sole responsibility of aggro management with enmity/damage stance dancing. Healers having powerful heals on long cooldowns and being more reliant on GCD heals and having to quickly decide on either doing damage or healing the party, as well as healing capabilities on other jobs being slightly limited. Fight designs having more frantic mechanics with unpredictable damage going out. Having more in general to manage other than a perfect rotation.

Maybe I’m asking for something “I think I want, but don’t really.” Either way, it’s not happening because SE doesn't want it to happen, so I want more damage abilities.

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

Maybe return the actions that we used to have? The same actions that when they were removed in 5.0 caused the game to literally bleed healers overnight

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This is what’s bizarre to me. Healing used to be theoretically harder, and healers still had more engaging damage rotations. Now that healers ask for them back, all of a sudden it’s “well you don’t want to be a healer, huh?”

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Granted I understand the complaints here, but I just found the whole thing pretty damn hilarious and I know for a fact if they ever give healers some kind of dps rotation the people who like pure healing are going to lose their minds. There's no winning for the devs on healers imo, at least not outside of JP (their healer community is plenty healthy.)

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There are also complains in the JP community and even if the healer drought is not that big in the region, the role its still less populated than it should.

The funny thing imo is that those pure healers are already fucked and proven wrong by the game design even with the current braindead state because

-We have healing tools that deal damage
-Sage kardia heals by dealing damage
-The gcd cast time of offensive spells was reduced so we could heal while dealing damage
-High end content that requires healers need said healers to deal damage otherwise the enrage is mathematically impossible
-The healing needs of the game as well as the resource generation don't function with pure healing

If with the current design they refuse to deal damage is up to them to play the role wrong but they shoudn't hijack an entire role just because they refuse to play the way the game is designed for and leech their parties. Catering to those players would be like saying its ok to grab the ball with the hands in soccer just because some people who refuse to learn to play soccer want to

I haven’t logged in to play in a long time. I pop in to keep my house but I’m thinking even that may be time to let go. I pop in to do a bit of island stuff but… yeah is it worth it?

How they designed their healers and their refusal to see how homogenized and boring they are has left me w little interest in continuing. Right now it’s just my nostalgia for the game keeping me going.

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Originally Posted by Tabmow

maybe roll a DPS?

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Isn't that why there's a shortage of savage healers? Maybe the solution isn't to accept bad designs.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I just want Stormblood SCH back.

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I want party balance design to be similar to what it was in stormblood.
Except for the damage type debuffs. I'm still glad those are gone.

I think "complex DPS rotations" are often confused to mean good.
There are a few problems I could see. (keep in mind this is just from a White Mage main so I don't know what everyone else has to work with - yes Glare mage haha)

With cast times as they are even if we had 1-2-3 rotation with OGCDs spliced and a dot. There's a good chance we would drop our rotation completely to heal most the time and we'd never have a good enough tempo to make it feel satisfying it would just feel clunky. (1-2... Oh need to move (ogcd), 3, oh Jeffry stood in some bad again heal*, 1, need to move again (no ogcd this time), 2, Jeffry messed up again, and now there's a tank buster or a roomwide, 3.... )

Now assuming we pass that first hurdle we still have one other thing to consider just by the nature of the game we'd still do less DPS than our partners whose role it is to DPS (otherwise why would you want to play with DPS classes when you could have a Healing class that can do just as good damage and heal and res, lol we'd never lose)

So you'd be giving yourself all this extra work for little output. You broke glare into three buttons but it would still be glare.

That's why our DPS options are so limited. A couple more DPS buttons wouldn't hurt, however.

Like Aero 3...
NEVER FORGET!

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I believe currently this is the most pressing issue in the entire game that needs to be addressed above everything else. That is my feedback.

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If you want to DPS with a more complex DPS rotation....play a DPS. The issue isn't healer DPS rotations not being complex enough, the issue is too many other classes have too much mitigation and the devs have effectively neutered the healer role in the game. No party should be able to clear current content without a healer that is actively needing to rotate through their HEALING rotations. I see far far too many healers out there that can DPS in competition with pure DPS classes but if the party starts loosing health? They panic and can't muster the knowledge or skill or even raid awareness to actually pull the party through bad situations. I can, on any of my healers, have some big mistake happen where people have failed mechanics and have in mass died, and I can stay alive, manage my MP, rez on the run even with a boss chasing me and I can get tanks and other healers and rez capable dps up. I've done it time and time again in roulettes where the experience and skill of the players with me is not a guarantee. I can do it because I don't spend my time worrying about my DPS. as a healer I should NOT be able to compete with pure DPS classes, therefore, keeping my party alive and topped off should be where my skill is. All the bars are green and full? I may have time to make it through a simple short and sweet DPS rotation before I need to be healing, using asuna or shielding people again.

Complexity in rotation for a healing class should only be focused on the healing of that class, not a time filler between your primary purpose in the group. Don't waste MP on DPS when it can be used to keep actual DPS alive, their contribution in damage will always be better than a healers and that's how it should be, so...you contribute the most damage against the boss...by keeping your party alive, clear of debuffs you can dispell and then, keeping yourself alive and your MP healthy so you can clutch heal if there's a mech failure in the group and you have to save the group. Worrying about DPS on a healer is like worrying that elephants can't fly.

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Originally Posted by Bsrking5

Isn't that why there's a shortage of savage healers? Maybe the solution isn't to accept bad designs.

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I do agree, but for different reasons. The bad design is in Tanks that have too much mitigation so they don't stay aware of their healer. If I zone in and a warrior can say to me and mean it "Just DPS dude, I'm a WAR, I don't need heals." then yes...there is a serious design flaw in the game. A healer should have complexity in their healing rotations, a fight should require them because DPS and Tanks should NEED to be healed enough that a healer doesn't have time to worry about filling a role other than what they are qued in for. In open world play? MSQ? It's simple, just buff a healers DPS when they are not inside a roulette or qued for instance. The moment they're in a party? their stats return to normal. Make healers HEAL, make sure they have a reason to. That's good design.

We've all been round in circles about 123 combos, and most people agree, we don't want them as a healer. It just doesn't fit the role for various reasons, but it's not the only way to add more interactivity to the DPS rotation we have as a healer. More DOTs, GCDs with seperate recasts (like Sonic Break on GNB is once per min), procs off of other stuff we already have, etc. And we can add things to the buttons to make them more interesting. What about if Broil gives 2 Fairy Gauge, and Fey Blessing scaled in potency with more gauge? What if Dia ticks made the Lily Gauge tick one second faster? We can't just say 'well we cant do it because 123 sucks' and use that to write off every alternative.

It also falls apart when you ask 'ok so why do tanks have 123 combos', I'm not advocating for the tanks to get dragged down to where us healers are, but surely they don't actually 'need' a 123, it's just 'extra work for little output' right? Well, no, because there's more reason to have a 123 as tank. PLD and WAR have a branching choice of 'which 3' to use. DRK has it's lifesteal and gauge build attached to the 3rd hit, having it replaced by 111 would flood it in resources (or be retuned to feel really bad with how little each hit grants), and GNB gains a cartridge from it's 3rd hit. How would we make GNB get 'one third' of a cartridge to keep it's gain the same, 33% chance? That would feel terrible, not being able to guarantee having the cartridge to start the Gnashing combo because RNG didn't like you.

'Complex DPS rotation' does not mean 'good', but I'm not asking for 'complex', I'm asking for 'cohesive, fun, interactive'. One DOT that lasts 30s and a second button to spam until that DOT falls off does not a rotation make. As an aside, I'm playing 'the other game' and monks there do have a 123 of sorts. Difference is, there's all these different nuances to it that make that 123 play really well. 1 makes 2 strike multiple times. 2 has a chance per strike to reset 3's 10sec CD instantly. 3 applies one of their HOTs for 6sec instead of its usual 20s, but this HOT always jumps to someone who needs it, so its super unlikely to overheal. A CD that summons a bird friend, who will heal someone nearby whenever you press 2, 3 or 'Holy equivalent AOE spell'. When bird-friend does a heal, he gives a stack, and at 3 tacks, you can instantcast a second, 'usually 2sec casttime', HOT that also increases healing received by that target by 30%. An optional talent that makes 3 also extend your HOTs by 4sec duration, an effect so strong that it had to be capped to 'you can only get to double the HOT's original duration' because people got so fast at one point, they could keep the HOT up 100% of the time and just coat the whole raid in HOTs that never fell off. Should I go on, with examples of this 'actually an interesting 123 combo as a healer'?

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Originally Posted by Desna

If you want to DPS with a more complex DPS rotation....play a DPS. The issue isn't healer DPS rotations not being complex enough, the issue is too many other classes have too much mitigation and the devs have effectively neutered the healer role in the game. No party should be able to clear current content without a healer that is actively needing to rotate through their HEALING rotations. I see far far too many healers out there that can DPS in competition with pure DPS classes but if the party starts loosing health? They panic and can't muster the knowledge or skill or even raid awareness to actually pull the party through bad situations.

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There is so much wrong in here that I don't even know where to begin...

The issue of healers IS their DPS rotations not mitigations because even in parties that do not mitigate outside of high-end (where it simply one shots and you can't heal that) the majority of actions healer do are dps actions and those dps actions are bland, boring and lack any depth. Players not knowing how to heal is a content issue as nothing really hurts and tutorials are crap and not because the DPS actions

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I can, on any of my healers, have some big mistake happen where people have failed mechanics and have in mass died, and I can stay alive, manage my MP, rez on the run even with a boss chasing me and I can get tanks and other healers and rez capable dps up. I've done it time and time again in roulettes where the experience and skill of the players with me is not a guarantee.

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Roulettes are not hard content and sorry to pop your bubble but when the content there can be healed by tanks, keeping the party alive and being able to rez is what I'd call the bare minimun, I put emphasis on this because...

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I can do it because I don't spend my time worrying about my DPS. as a healer I should NOT be able to compete with pure DPS classes, therefore, keeping my party alive and topped off should be where my skill is. All the bars are green and full? I may have time to make it through a simple short and sweet DPS rotation before I need to be healing, using asuna or shielding people again.

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Doing all that WHILE minimizing the dps loss is the true show of skill, healers are not bots designed to fill the hp bars of their teammates and just clean their mistakes, healers are a role that is designed to be efficient, minimize losses and provide the most you can to the party and that is healing AND dps, in fact dps is the king metric if anything. You heal because people dying is a dps loss, you rez because corpses do not dps and you dps because healing do not finish the fight, everything is about eliminating the threat as soon as posible and to do that a healer has to care about both their healing efficiency and their dps not matter how big it is (which in this game is quite big, 2 good healers combined can do more dps than dps classes and in aoe they are even closer) because anything is better than 0 and healing has a usefulness cap.

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Complexity in rotation for a healing class should only be focused on the healing of that class, not a time filler between your primary purpose in the group.

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Complexity and depth should be in what we do the most and that is dpsing, simple as that, besides increasing complexity in the healing actions would raise the skill floor without impacting much the ceiling since as gear gets better the healing needs become lesser and lesser but newbies would have a harder time doing the basics while increasing the complexity of the dps would affect much more the skill ceiling as good healers can optimize it and it would become more and more prevalent the better geared the party is while the newbies would still have an easy time doing the basics.

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Worrying about DPS on a healer is like worrying that elephants can't fly.

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Tell me you haven't done content with enrage without telling me you haven't done content with enrage, worrying about DPS on a healer is important because is what we do the most and without it a party can't beat the enrage on high end content

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Should I go on, with examples of this 'actually an interesting 123 combo as a healer'?

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Those are very interesting but in a way what would be the point? We already have hots or help to pick up the slack with healing so we can dps more. I mean heck one of those sounds like my Lilybell or Asylum. I know my Scholar friends have a little heal fairy that helps with healing.

If our DPS output remains the same level or rate (which it would most likely) You're breaking the buttons up to have all these extremely useful tertiary functions that we already have buttons for but our DPS would ultimately be the same.

I see your point that would be interesting but it almost is an artificial satisfaction. I mean for example if every button I had was like assize that be satisfying to press but would sort of dumb down healing making every button the correct button. Part of being a Healer is making the decisions with the full kit at your disposal unlike how other jobs function where rotations give you an optional benefit from using them... Speaking as a Whitemage - I have full access to all my buttons and I dictate how they are used the most effectively.

One of your options here and I hope you don't mind a bit of critique (I do think these are interesting) but one of them you have.

" but this HOT always jumps to someone who needs it"

That takes a lot of agency away from what makes a good healer a good healer. I know when it's best to give a dps who dropped below half a regen instead of a heal because it's a quick instant action and I can then go back to dpsing the boss. I know when to spread heals out best for my team and maximize their use because that is the freedom Healing allows me.

There is an interesting way to play healer but it actually comes from the decisions we make by playing our role. It has nothing to do with our DPS. As much as dps buttons would be appreciated and maybe if they did have rotational benefits like you suggested they would be cool but ultimately no I just think the design of healers is the way it is for a reason.

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Originally Posted by Desna

If you want to DPS with a more complex DPS rotation....play a DPS. The issue isn't healer DPS rotations not being complex enough, the issue is too many other classes have too much mitigation and the devs have effectively neutered the healer role in the game.

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As a tank main, I love having mitigation and healing tools available to supplement my DPS rotation and healers. It's fun, interesting, engaging and separates my role from DPS in good ways. As a healer player, I enjoy working together with tanks on healing and mitigation to help survive mechanics, because it's fun, interesting, engaging and separates my role from DPS in good ways. The problem isn't needing to become a heal slave, no one with a valid opinion wants that. The problem is that I want to do DPS in more interesting and fun ways as a healer in addition to my duties as a healer. The vast majority of this game isn't current relevant Savage/Ultimate difficulty, which is the only place you would spend more GCDs on healing than DPSing if even then, and I'm glad for that. I want the core game design concept of healing in FF14 to be contributing to DPS in significant and interesting ways on top of my healing duties.

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Originally Posted by Desna

The issue isn't healer DPS rotations not being complex enough, the issue is too many other classes have too much mitigation and the devs have effectively neutered the healer role in the game.

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Both are definitely part of the reasons why the role is boring. Let's say they do give all form of mitigations and healing to healers while stripping them bare from other role & leaving our DPS options as it is, what do you think we will do?

Double weaving our tools more intensively 5% - 15% of time then go back to 1 2 1 1 1 1 1.. 70%+ of time? Wow.

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[...]I see far far too many healers out there that can DPS in competition with pure DPS classes but if the party starts loosing health? They panic and can't muster the knowledge or skill or even raid awareness to actually pull the party through bad situations. I can, on any of my healers, have some big mistake happen where people have failed mechanics and have in mass died, and I can stay alive, manage my MP, rez on the run even with a boss chasing me and I can get tanks and other healers and rez capable dps up[...]

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Since you're bringing your own anecdote, it's only fair to compare mine with yours. Whenever I am not queueing as a healer (or cohealing) & $h!t hits the fan, it is almost always the healer who focuses on healing that actually panic heals & not knowing what to press to prevent a wipe. Roulette, high end, all the same. They always fall first before the "Green DPSes". Are there any bad green dpses? Why, of course. But the numbers I've encountered aren't as prominent as the former.

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[...]Worrying about DPS on a healer is like worrying that elephants can't fly.

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Worrying the party will drop dead all suddenly surely counts as one, too. For the most part of a healer's learning curve, such cautionary behavior just prove to be unnecessary most of the time. Damages are heavily scripted, to the point with enough experience one can easily predict when exactly players will make their 'random' mistake to counter that while keeping DPS uptime.

But sure. Let's make healing 'more complex'. Veteran healers would likely welcome the heightened skill floor but know that this will only hurt less experienced healers more. Raising the filler complexities aka DPSing (or buffing if they ever dive into that again) on the other hand will not hurt them because less experienced healers cares less about doing damage & will less likely to press damage buttons actively, which is fine. There are already healers who do not bother to press Assize because it does damage. Adding more damage options will not make it suddenly interesting to their eyes.

What does more interesting look like exactly? What does more depth look like? What's the comparison we're going for? (is it in this game? is it in another game?) Because I don't know what healing class in another MMO doesn't generally have a basic dps kit most of the big buttons of which are on cool down and one primary single target/aoe spell and a dot. I also don't know of other jobs in FF14 to be all that exciting.

I think ForsakenRoe made a decent effort in their examples but I think it was a bit too much.

I'm still confused by what the benefit is that you'd be pressing multiple buttons for the same level of output.

Because you got to think about how it will interact with the rest of the whole game - We're not gonna suddenly have a higher threshold for DPS numbers our contribution will remain the same (we would have to for how this game is balanced) you would have just separated the task into multiple parts. So what?

That's not a good game design that's a placebo effect to make a certain group of players feels better. I don't believe there would be a change in the ceiling or floor or anything really.

That said if Healing is boring for you then it's probably not the right job for you - in this game at least... maybe there's some other MMO that does it better but I wouldn't know, They probably have a better GCD. It sounds reductive to say it that way but it's the truth. *does he mean that the game shouldn't improve?* not even close.. just I don't think giving you extra buttons to press to feel more engaged is proper game design.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

That said if Healing is boring for you then it's probably not the right job for you - in this game at least... maybe there's some other MMO that does it better but I wouldn't know, They probably have a better GCD. It sounds reductive to say it that way but it's the truth. *does he mean that the game shouldn't improve?* not even close.. just I don't think giving you extra buttons to press to feel more engaged is proper game design.

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It is entirely reductive to say that when healers had more DPS buttons in the past. Telling others it's not the right job for them is ridiculous, especially when we had various types of playstyles in the past. Perhaps making every single healer play exactly the same for 80% of their casts in nearly any given encounter isn't proper game design? But I don't know, it's not like we have any examples of healers with more DPS buttons working in this game or anything.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

I'm still confused by what the benefit is that you'd be pressing multiple buttons for the same level of output.

Because you got to think about how it will interact with the rest of the whole game - We're not gonna suddenly have a higher threshold for DPS numbers our contribution will remain the same (we would have to for how this game is balanced) you would have just separated the task into multiple parts. So what?

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Who cares about the number that Glare outputs? Glare is still boring. I don't care if a newer rotation does less damage or more damage than what we output currently, what I care about is if it's either enjoyable to me or if it's going to put me on snooze for 70% of the fight when nobody's taking damage.

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That's not a good game design that's a placebo effect to make a certain group of players feels better. I don't believe there would be a change in the ceiling or floor or anything really.

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This I don't really get, how is it a placebo effect? Having a harder damage rotation on top of having to heal the party is definitely an increase in skill ceiling.

As with game design... FFXIV's combat is entirely focused on doing damage, you can't deny that. One major issue with healers is that they all feel the same with minor differences. Some of this is unavoidable since they want all healers to be able to clear 4-man content, so they homogenized the healing kits. But the damage kits don't need to be homogenized at all. It's probably the only thing that can be unique to every job in this state of the game. It doesn't need to be anything complicated. One job can have multiple DoTs, another can have a basic builder/spender rotation similar to BLM, another can have procs and oGCDs, etc. You'd probably need max 4 buttons for these. Just anything more than Glare Dia will satisfy me.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

It is entirely reductive to say that when healers had more DPS buttons in the past.

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Well, I've been playing since Heavensward so please forgive me if I don't know about changes for Whitemages before that point but I've been a Whitemage main throughout.

But my Stone became Glare. My Aero became Dia. My Holy became Holier... I still have Assize from Storm Blood.
The only real DPS button I lost was Aero 3 (which is surely missed) but I also have Afflatus Misery now.

So I've had the same number of DPS buttons for the last 4 expansions.

Perhaps you're referring to Scholar or Astrologian?
Again I was open to examples of other MMOs to which to be referred. I want to know what exactly you're looking for.

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Originally Posted by flowerfairy

This I don't really get, how is it a placebo effect? Having a harder damage rotation on top of having to heal the party is definitely an increase in skill ceiling.

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Well to demonstrate you actually gave me a good example so allow me to illuminate.

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Originally Posted by flowerfairy

Who cares about the number that Glare outputs? Glare is still boring. I don't care if a newer rotation does less damage or more damage than what we output currently..

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You wouldn't care if you did more or less damage than we do currently just using our current toolset. As long as it is enjoyable for you.
The first definition of Placebo that I could find is.

"A substance that has positive effects as a result of a patient's perception that it is beneficial rather than as a result of a causative ingredient."

To you in this case the substance would be giving you more buttons the positive effect would be your perception of enjoyment. Regardless as you yourself put it if you did less or more equal damage as you do use glare.

That would be a placebo effect.

And the reason I say this wouldn't raise the ceiling or change the floor or any architecture wear in. That players are very adaptable to change and if the damage output remained the same - which for balance reasons it would, Healers won't suddenly be doing more DPS than we are now - that the act of pressing buttons would be an illusion of complexity and enjoyment without really changing a thing. It's the same thing broken into multiple buttons.
The reason this wouldn't work for say DPS I assume you might ask after is that the DPS identity comes from their diverse multitude of damaging spells to express themselves with and the decisions they make in using them are core to their role. As a White mage, my diverse multitude of healing spells to express myself with and the decisions I make in using them are core to my role.

That's not to say we couldn't use more DPS buttons but even if it was expanded to say two more buttons they'd have to play an important function past the redundancy of feeling good to press more buttons their utility would play a factor.

They were referring to SCH from Heavensward and Stormblood. In HE, sch had broil, bio, bio 2, miasma, aero, energy drain, and shadow flare. In StB, they had broil 2, bio 2, miasma, miasma 2, energy drain and shadow flare. Heading into ShB, they only had Broil 3, Bioanalysis, and art of war before they had to add back energy drain.

Also Whm did have more dps spells than that with Aero 1(though sadly it was more useful on other classes) and fluid aura.

But basically we just want something or rather anything to break the monotony of the filler and the dot that is prevalent for all four classes when the downtime in each fight happens.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

They were referring to SCH from Heavensward and Stormblood. In HE, sch had broil, bio, bio 2, miasma, aero, energy drain, and shadow flare. In StB, they had broil 2, bio 2, miasma, miasma 2, energy drain and shadow flare. Heading into ShB, they only had Broil 3, Bioanalysis, and art of war before they had to add back energy drain.

Also Whm did have more dps spells than that with Aero 1(though sadly it was more useful on other classes) and fluid aura.

But basically we just want something or rather anything to break the monotony of the filler and the dot that is prevalent for all four classes when the downtime in each fight happens.

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I figured that was partially the case. For Scholars.
OH Yeah we could use two aeros back then... Also Fluid Aura ... I thought I was the only one to use that ability. I don't believe it did any damage though just a knock or if it did only did a little bit. (never seemed to work on anything when it mattered) I never really used it for damage often.

And I understand wanting to break up the monotony but we got to do better than just want it for wanting its sake.
There was an individual who wrote here named ForesakenRoe who gave some pretty incredible suggestions but I think tying too many heal effects to dps abilities would make playing healer even more boring for people because you'd be dishing out so much healing with your damage that it devalues your decisions/agency you have while healing.

I was looking back into WoW for maybe some inspiration but that doesn't translate over well with how FF14 GCD works. Like if it was more dots would that be sufficient? Just to keep tabs on something?

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Originally Posted by Nadda

I figured that was partially the case. For Scholars.
OH Yeah we could use two aeros back then... Also Fluid Aura ... I thought I was the only one to use that ability. I don't believe it did any damage though just a knock or if it did only did a little bit. (never seemed to work on anything when it mattered) I never really used it for damage often.

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Prior to Stormblood, Fluid used to do 150 potency. Also the issue with aero 1 back then was that over its total duration it did 200 potency and stone 3 did 210 so it was a minor dps loss to use it while sch broil was either 170 or 180 was it was a gain to use and malefic 2 or 3 was 200 so it was even.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

snip
You wouldn't care if you did more or less damage than we do currently just using our current toolset. As long as it is enjoyable for you. snip

And the reason I say this wouldn't raise the ceiling or change the floor or any architecture wear in. That players are very adaptable to change and if the damage output remained the same - which for balance reasons it would, Healers won't suddenly be doing more DPS than we are now - that the act of pressing buttons would be an illusion of complexity and enjoyment without really changing a thing. It's the same thing broken into multiple buttons. The reason this wouldn't work for say DPS I assume you might ask after is that the DPS identity comes from their diverse multitude of damaging spells to express themselves with and the decisions they make in using them are core to their role. As a White mage, my diverse multitude of healing spells to express myself with and the decisions I make in using them are core to my role.
That's not to say we couldn't use more DPS buttons but even if it was expanded to say two more buttons they'd have to play an important function past the redundancy of feeling good to press more buttons their utility would play a factor.

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There have been multiple posts, in multiple threads, that can provide games in which healers had diverse skillsets that include damage abilities, utility as well as healing abilities, since you don't seem to have done the research ( I assume) i will list 2 - SWTOR and Aion, in both of these DPS skills were by no means an afterthought, they were integral to the healer identity and in fact a healer in the DPS skill set was competitive with DPS. That does not mean that it is the solution for this game, it does mean that I personally do not want extra buttons introduced mindlessly, that way leads to the button bloat in the current AST and some of the current useless ( or questionable) skills in the healer skillset we have today, one of the classic examples being repose. I do not in fact object to healers doing more DPS and that could be perfectly appropriate - for example in the MSQ, or in other solo activities- it could even be appropriate to have that option in group activities. In group content it's not an "illusion of complexity and enjoyment", it's more of a skill ceiling, in that in order to increase DPS there are mechanics, efficiency of healing and other factors to consider in order to get that increased DPS output.

By the way, regarding "just add more dots", I'm curious as why you would want to apply the same approach to every healer? There are 4 healers, why should they all be the same? Personally, I had that on SCH, I could see it coming back to Ssch, but please, let's not continue to just slapping the same skill on all four and call it a day.

I don't understand why we still need to debate whether healers deserve to have fun, consistent gameplay that ensures they can participate in FFXIV's combat system in all forms of content regardless of player or party skill level.

This is a video game. Yes? Video games are meant to be fun. Yes? Fun fact: being fun is kinda the entire point of a video game. That can mean different things, but if a game is failing to be fun, everything else fails as well.

Healers fail to be fun in 95% of circumstances. It doesn't matter if they work, if they're balanced, or if they make the game easier, they fail all of those checkboxes because they couldn't succeed the first and more pivotal responsibility of a video game: being fun.

Design healers to be fun first, then take into consideration balance and accessibility while defending and sustaining the qualities that make them fun ALWAYS. Not just when progging savage. Not just when playing with people who can't step out of a giant glowing circle to save their life. ALWAYS.

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Originally Posted by flowerfairy

[...]Just anything more than Glare Dia will satisfy me.

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Just slightly off topic, but this sentence right here, is a big reason I'm disappointed we don't get another instanced area ala Eureka/Bozja. I've never been happier anywhere else because the Logos/Lost Actions gives me something else to press other than my hotkey breaking nukes as the green role. Be it utility (Paralyze III for uber pulls in undersized group), DPS (Seraph Strike & Magic Burst), added timer (again, Seraph Strike & Paralyze III), or suddenly ever so slightly more engaging MP management (Font of Magic, Chainspell, Seraph, Magic Burst).