Is SE planning to deal with ilvl cheese people?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...16/dgsdgsd.jpg

This is getting a bit much

Nupe! They wont cause crystal tower raids are required, while all others are totally optional, so they rather have folks run the tower stuff.

ok what is iLevel cheese?

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Originally Posted by Myrany

ok what is iLevel cheese?

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If you take off all your gear before queuing for alliance raid your ilvl becomes too low to queue into anything but the crystal tower series, and as crystal tower is way quicker and gives the same exp, people do this on purpose to get a quick roullete

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Originally Posted by Myrany

ok what is iLevel cheese?

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It's where you intentionally queue to a roulette in low ilevel gear so that you don't have a chance of getting the higher level raids. Lots of people just want the low level, fast and easy raids and guarantee them to themselves this way. Unfortunately, it leaves people who want to run the higher level stuff waiting around in queue forever.

Removing gear to be at the right ilevel for CT but not enough for other raids.

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

Nupe! They wont cause crystal tower raids are required, while all others are totally optional, so they rather have folks run the tower stuff.

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Well nobody said to remove crystal tower, they can increase the rewards of later raids instead to incentivize people to stay.

Though the fact that you get to play a different raid instead of CT and get to play a class that feels far better than the dreadfully boring lvl50 classes is reward enough for me usually xd

ty all for the answer

Item level cheese isn't the problem.

The problem is that out of 24 players matched in the group, there's a high probability that one of those players is leveling a job under level 60, doing the mandatory CT requirement for MSQ or has never unlocked any of the other Alliance raids.

What SE needs to do is move the 3 CT raids into their own roulette. It's not going to disrupt game balance to add another roulette so players can get bonus XP for jobs they're leveling while separating the one thing that's keeping the Alliance Raid roulette from behaving like an actual roullette instead of a coin toss.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...16/dgsdgsd.jpg

This is getting a bit much

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The vast majority of people don't ILVL Cheese. More specifically, Aglaia is still run frequently as it is the most recent alliance raid currently in 6.2. If you waited that long without a queue pop, it's most likely that either the queue broke (which sometimes require re-queueing), you queued during dead hours at night for your DC, or you're in OCE Datacenter.
OCE Datacenter is mostly a ghost town at the moment, mainly because a lot of people who were in the other Datacenters don't want to leave their friends and FC behind.

They should just move tower raids into the main story roulette at this point.

That picture proves nothing because I get the alliance raids from all expansions at equal frequency when I queue.

You are on Materia, right? The data center that everyone says is dead?

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

That picture proves nothing because I get the alliance raids from all expansions at equal frequency when I queue.

You are on Materia, right? The data center that everyone says is dead?

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Yep though I never had an issue with ques like that, was able to do all content and previous alliance raids just fine, the endwalker/shadowbringers ones are the one that seem to take forever

Technically the shadowbringers raid did pop at the 6-7 hour mark twice but someone declined or were afk -_-

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

They should just move tower raids into the main story roulette at this point.

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This really makes the most sense in the long run. Even if they "fix" ct by adjusting the difficulty or blocking ilvl cheese, alliance raid roulette is still going to be crystal tower roulette due to the story requirement.

Moving CT to MSQ roulette also strongarms players (if they want the alliance roulette bonus) into unlocking at least one alliance raid series that still has mechanics.

SE's had years to deal with this, but as far as I know, they won't even acknowledge that it's a problem. Because of this, the "solution" has fallen on the community.
If this were happening in a more toxic community, there would be twitter accounts set up that named and shamed these people and just had pictures for days of players loading into labyrinth without any gear, but we only suffer from toxic positivity here, which translates to "jUsT LeT tHe ChEeSy bOi pLaY hOw hE wAnTs" even though these people combined with the actual newbies doing mandatory CT have made it so alliance raid roulette is 99% crystal tower.

There are so many ways to alleviate this even without touching the item level shenanigans. Just give people reasons to run Ivalice and we'll see more Ivalice queues popping. When Bozja came out and Ivalice was a requirement to go, suddenly I started seeing more Ivalice raids in my roulette. Crazy. And yeah in a perfect world they'd either revamp crystal tower so its mechanics actually mattered, or they'd just add it to msq roulette so ilvl cheesers can stick us in Void Ark every day instead.

edit: Also whether the OP's on Materia or not is moot for the main point. We've all had to deal with this BS. I don't even bother queuing alliance raid roulette anymore; I just queue the fun shit directly, because it's almost never good raids anymore. Sometimes I literally queue alliance raid roulette before bed, and if it's a CT with no first timers I just drop and go to bed. Enjoy your free ticket out, everyone else. This one's on me.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...16/dgsdgsd.jpg

This is getting a bit much

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How about removing ilvl altogether and go back to old school systems that were more fun and engaging?

While ilevel cheese certainly happens, it is not the main cause of "Syrcus Tower roulette".

Crystal Tower is the lowest common denominator. Literally every single person doing alliance roulette has it unlocked by default. In order to get Puppet Bunker in roulette all 24 people have to be level 80+ and have the dungeon unlocked. Meanwhile it only takes a single player under level 60 or with no other raids unlocked to force the other 23 into CT.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...16/dgsdgsd.jpg

This is getting a bit much

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According to our beloved community Ivalice-Nier dungeons are bad because they are "too long" and "harder" than CT, so its better this way to keep doing the same Raid from almost 1 decade ago every single day of our lives in FFXIV.

Ilvl cheese is only a small part of it, so it wouldn't help much to "deal with it" anyways.

All roulettes accessible before max level inevitably favor the lowest level instances in the group, simply because a, more people have those instances unlocked, and b, people typically use these roulettes to level with, so are usually queued on jobs that don't have access to the max level raids in particular.

So you probably hate to hear it, but if SE eliminated ilvl cheese you'd still be getting CT most of the time, just as leveling roulette tends to give you things like Sastasha and rarely the more interesting stuff ...

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Originally Posted by Lunalepsy

How about removing ilvl altogether and go back to old school systems that were more fun and engaging?

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if you want to play an old-school MMO, FF XI is right there, still getting updates and still being supported.

Nothing is really broken, so there's nothing to fix. There are player choices that affect the roulette. As others have noted, ilvl cheese was just a part of it. They also include not unlocking the optional tiers and generally staying away from the roulette. There are other ways to earn tomestones and xp.

The duty finder player matching algorithm is probably also to blame. In some cases, it works out for the player. Take the following example:
You queue as a DPS for leveling roulette. You are level 89. Someone else queues for Aitiascope. The algorithm will try and start grabbing level 89+ players to match. Your queue number might read 50+ but your queue pops quick since no one else in the queue in front of you is 89+.

I don't know if that algorithm works the same for alliance roulette. If someone opens Copied Factory, will it try to grab players that meet those requirements first? Or is it critical mass? Will it see that someone queued for LotA and just grab 23 more players because anyone in the queue can fill those slots.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

The duty finder player matching algorithm is probably also to blame. In some cases, it works out for the player. Take the following example:
You queue as a DPS for leveling roulette. You are level 89. Someone else queues for Aitiascope. The algorithm will try and start grabbing level 89+ players to match. Your queue number might read 50+ but your queue pops quick since no one else in the queue in front of you is 89+.

I don't know if that algorithm works the same for alliance roulette. If someone opens Copied Factory, will it try to grab players that meet those requirements first? Or is it critical mass? Will it see that someone queued for LotA and just grab 23 more players because anyone in the queue can fill those slots.

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The system definitely puts a priority on first clears. Is it to blame in this situation? I disagree. We only have 13 maximum possibilities and its function is to match people as quickly as possible. We've seen it with dungeon roulette where you can have 4 people with so much available and it can still put you in a low level because it's actually picking at random. This is why the limited leveling option went in so people can maximize the xp gains from the duty itself.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Nothing is really broken, so there's nothing to fix. There are player choices that affect the roulette. As others have noted, ilvl cheese was just a part of it. They also include not unlocking the optional tiers and generally staying away from the roulette. There are other ways to earn tomestones and xp.

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But it does point at least to an exploitable flaw in the roulette's design. It's Alliance Raid roulette, yet it's capable of being conditioned by ilv.

You don't see this being done anywhere near as frequently with other roulettes that feature low-level stuff like level roulette or 50-80 roulette. There, the odds of getting ARR/HSW instances are conditioned due to their number in comparison to later expansion instances and the amount of players actually at that level.

Alliance Raid Roulette so far has 12/13 instances, 3 per expansion, far fewer than most other roulettes save Expert and Lv 90. Yet when the same 3 keep showing up with far more frequency than the others, and the fact that people reduce item level specifically to proc them is so noticeable, it does at least show the problem isn't just that there are more people in ARR content/people who haven't unlocked the other instances. And that aspect is exploitable, thus there is something to fix.

Could also look into nerfing the HP of all the bosses from the HW/SB/SHB alliance raid series.

The Nier bosses go on for way too long imo

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Could also look into nerfing the HP of all the bosses from the HW/SB/SHB alliance raid series.

The Nier bosses go on for way too long imo

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Nerfing? They should increase all boss health generally. We skip mechanics too often because there isn't enough, sometimes even in relatively new content. Normal modes put their worst mechanics at the end of the script usually as well.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Item level cheese isn't the problem.

The problem is that out of 24 players matched in the group, there's a high probability that one of those players is leveling a job under level 60, doing the mandatory CT requirement for MSQ or has never unlocked any of the other Alliance raids.

What SE needs to do is move the 3 CT raids into their own roulette. It's not going to disrupt game balance to add another roulette so players can get bonus XP for jobs they're leveling while separating the one thing that's keeping the Alliance Raid roulette from behaving like an actual roullette instead of a coin toss.

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I've loaded into the raids too many times to see other players pop in naked then suddenly equip all their gear (and you can see the discrepancy between the HP changing) to know that this is happening. Additionally most times when I do get crystal tower, there isn't the pop up message that someone is in there for the first time. Sure some people haven't unlocked any other raid series, but it's still creating a problem when people item level cheese when they go to try to Void Ark and realize that they're going to be sitting in queue for over half an hour to get in.

This is such a silly argument/request. I have started asking and have option to see when people level. Every CT had someone below 60. Shock, shock, and I just do it for WT a few tries a week. Next why do you think people would que for whatever raid you want anyways? Some people claim CT can be done in 15 mins. I have never seen one that fast. But none of the other ones can be done in even close to the same time. People do the garbage roulette's for rewards. Are they scaled properly, can you guarantee fast run if people drop, can you say the same amount of time and effort has to go into it? SE has some understanding of playerbase, look how much they had to add to MSQ to make people hate do it. The list of problems can go on. So until SE works on the other problems ilvl chs is the least of raid roulette's problems.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

But it does point at least to an exploitable flaw in the roulette's design. It's Alliance Raid roulette, yet it's capable of being conditioned by ilv.

You don't see this being done anywhere near as frequently with other roulettes that feature low-level stuff like level roulette or 50-80 roulette. There, the odds of getting ARR/HSW instances are conditioned due to their number in comparison to later expansion instances and the amount of players actually at that level.

Alliance Raid Roulette so far has 12/13 instances, 3 per expansion, far fewer than most other roulettes save Expert and Lv 90. Yet when the same 3 keep showing up with far more frequency than the others, and the fact that people reduce item level specifically to proc them is so noticeable, it does at least show the problem isn't just that there are more people in ARR content/people who haven't unlocked the other instances. And that aspect is exploitable, thus there is something to fix.

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There's a loophole. I won't deny that. I think it's the only place where such a thing occurs, aside from maybe a handful of people that want to do trials at a lower level. I still believe the resulting problem is hard to pin solely on ilvl cheese. I've done a few roulettes in the past couple months and I haven't seen CT at all. I do remember a time when it was an everyday thing, but I think those people have since moved on, having gotten all their xp. I think it's going to be hard for them to look at the data and see proof of such a thing and harder still for anyone to be able to log a sufficient number of events to say that this is such a big problem. You can have people doing this and still have people show up in the list that are actually under 60. Going back to that time when it did happen more, it was around that time of the WoW flood, so it's likely that we had a lot of true newbs at the time and we still do.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

There's a loophole. I won't deny that. I think it's the only place where such a thing occurs, aside from maybe a handful of people that want to do trials at a lower level. I still believe the resulting problem is hard to pin solely on ilvl cheese. I've done a few roulettes in the past couple months and I haven't seen CT at all. I do remember a time when it was an everyday thing, but I think those people have since moved on, having gotten all their xp. I think it's going to be hard for them to look at the data and see proof of such a thing and harder still for anyone to be able to log a sufficient number of events to say that this is such a big problem. You can have people doing this and still have people show up in the list that are actually under 60. Going back to that time when it did happen more, it was around that time of the WoW flood, so it's likely that we had a lot of true newbs at the time and we still do.

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It's the same for me. I've been subbed the past two months, and CT raids weren't as large on the probability as Dun Scaith was. I even got a NieR raid once. However, I will point out that people spawning stark naked happened three times. So it does still happen. What I find more heinous isn't that they do it, it's how smarmy they tend to be about it -.-

Of course, getting data on this is borderline impossible. But they could alleviate it with some measure. However, question does remain, whichever measure we put out can make it harder for players who actually do want to unlock the content. Because it wont' just affect CT. CT is fine; it's a part of the MSQ, everyone needs to unlock it. The issue is any instance past it. Ivalice might demand that you unlock it for Bozja, but Bozja isn't mandatory.

I have the solution!
Queue people based on their level, not ilevel, let all the sprouts stare into the world of darkness’ eye!

RELEASE THE CHAOS

https://media.tenor.com/acU28-Gj1W0A...olson-jack.gif

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...16/dgsdgsd.jpg

This is getting a bit much

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Aglaia queues don't normally take very long to pop at all. This is likely more because you are on a dead DC than people ilvl cheesing.

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Originally Posted by SassyAssassin

RELEASE THE CHAOS

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I never got a chance to experience the World of Sprouts. Sad.

>Way to fix this.
Separate crystal tower raids and other raids into different rouls.

Also would like Aglaia (+added 90 raids) to be a separate "expert alliance raids"

Personally I believe we should have more dailys to do would even argue adding something like arr trials separate ect, the purpose of rouls is so you can have veteran players come in to help for content, I rather farm my pink tomes doing different stuff then getting 80 for my fell court reruns. they should also reward more green tomes for duties.

They could easily boost the waiting time of the more "obscure" duties at the very least and i don't see why not expand the system.

Crystal Tower should be part of MSQ Roulette, while the current MSQ 4man content should be part of Dungeon roulette.

There easy fix.

Base it after the level of job you queu in as... then it will force set minimum ilevel required for the highest possibler raid your level.

You will be synched to the minimum required ilevel, if you got better gear than what the min is... you would of course be using the higher ilevel.

That way you can't simply just ake your armor off before you go into a roulette, but would be synched for the highest possible your level, of course the lower end raids is all there as well.

Or in other words you could also add the ilevel requirement to the roulette itself, if you are level 50 you need ilevel 120 or somehting to be able to queu for alliance roulette... 250 for 60 and so on and so forth, that would plug the hole once and for all and people would not just be able to cheese it... also increase the xp a bit and possible reward a bit.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...16/dgsdgsd.jpg

This is getting a bit much

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Maybe a big part of this is down to how deathly boring Aglaia is?

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Originally Posted by ThaCa

Crystal Tower should be part of MSQ Roulette, while the current MSQ 4man content should be part of Dungeon roulette.

There easy fix.

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or just add required ilevel to do the roulette, that will scale after level in 10s... so 50, your job queued as must have minimum ilevel whatever... and if you are lets say 80 you need to have the minimum ilevel for the final lvl 80 24man raid... and as for the 90 ones would just follow the minimum required current ilevel, that would solve the roulette problem good.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

>Way to fix this.
Separate crystal tower raids and other raids into different rouls.

Also would like Aglaia (+added 90 raids) to be a separate "expert alliance raids"

Personally I believe we should have more dailys to do would even argue adding something like arr trials separate ect, the purpose of rouls is so you can have veteran players come in to help for content, I rather farm my pink tomes doing different stuff then getting 80 for my fell court reruns. they should also reward more green tomes for duties.

They could easily boost the waiting time of the more "obscure" duties at the very least and i don't see why not expand the system.

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Neither will ever happen, especially the 90 separation. People queue those independently for their tomestones and whatever loot they might need.
You can't split off crystal tower and call it a roulette. People would likely avoid it, defeating the purpose of a roulette. You would just end up re-creating the original problem where people ilvl cheat for Dun Scaith. Of course, you also find people naturally under 70 looking for xp.

People simply need to accept the situation for what it is and adjust their play because there's no simple or definitive "fix" for this "problem"

Boy, why did you select FN language only on the oceanic server and start all this drama