Petition: Longer instance cooldowns in exchange for better drop rates!

Yeah, I talk about this all the time in other threads when people whine about low drop rates. So i guess it deserves its own thread.

Let me explain what is happening here.

When Darkhold was being released, a huge discussion came forth about our ability to re-enter the instance, via the cooldown timer.

People were more then vocal about not wanting a cooldown on it at all, because they don't ever want to have to wait to redo content.

Well, the developers granted their wish.

The problem is though, when you have no cooldown, and you have a high drop rate, everyone gets everything quickly, and then theres no reason for anyone to ever go back in. So what happened, is what happened.

Instead of 1 person getting a weapon every 1-3 days and only being able to do the instance once. We now can do it as many times as we want per day, and we can get as many drops as our luck will give us. In many cases, the party can get upwards of 10+ items within a timeframe of what would have been a single drop due to a cooldown over a few days.


What would people think, if Ifrit had a 100% drop rate, of a single weapon, with a 24 cooldown on it after winning?
Same with moogle, same with Garuda, and so on and so forth.
Put that cooldown on every instance, but put a 100% drop rate nto the picture(100% drop rate of 1 item, more if the cooldown is longer).

This is more then likely the only way to recover from these low drop rates, which we are responsible for due to our insistance on being able to do content as much as possible with no cooldowns.

But unlike other games, lets not put a cooldown on failure, lets keep it for victory only.

/signedwithmorethan10chars

The only way this would work is if the content lasted for longer than 20-30 minutes at a time. The only reason they did it this way was because of the fact that you are done with the content in 20 minutes and would then be left with nothing else to do. I wouldn't mind it if they changed it in the future though when they add content that doesn't revolve around getting a speed run.

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Originally Posted by Req

The only way this would work is if the content lasted for longer than 20-30 minutes at a time. The only reason they did it this way was because of the fact that you are done with the content in 20 minutes and would then be left with nothing else to do. I wouldn't mind it if they changed it in the future though when they add content that doesn't revolve around getting a speed run.

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but even those speedruns, imagine if you didnt get ANY dark matter in your chests and such....
imagine if it was all items instead

that all is part of it, how long the instance takes doesnt matter, the fact that you have no penalty involved and can just go in over and over again, is still the main factor in our low drop rates and its what needs fixing

Cause of the Randomness of the stuff I never made any lvl 50 primals, CC, AV or Hamlet.
Seems like a good Idea to make the design in a way that people don't even care to do it once...

What I fear is that if they make 100% the amount needed or the lock out will get ridicilous.
Having a long lock out time causes other problems. If there still is a timer on the contend it could mean that you only have one try and after one wipe you notice the time you have left is not enough to do the contend. A week later next try. That would mean the end for random groups. Imagine to join a contend with a random group, some people maybe never did the contend you need to explain everything, and since you always understand it bether after you first try then with any explanation, people will still make errors.
So you get new members every week and every time the same problem...
For me that would mean the same as now: I never even try out the contend.

Honestly, I think a 100% drop rate would not be any fun either. Otherwise for groups that have CC/AV/and the Primals mastered for example, they'd do their hour or so of content with their normal group then log out. I personally would rather have a drop rate akin to the moogle fight or stronghold coffer keys on high-end content and keep the cool-down as is. I'd much rather be able to spam the instances having fun with my LS mates for hours, than win once and not be able to train new folks in the same day.

That being said, I wouldn't mind if we had some dungeons that took longer (maybe 4x longer) to complete and which came with a longer lockout and a higher drop rate. Variety is the spice of life, after all.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

but even those speedruns, imagine if you didnt get ANY dark matter in your chests and such....
imagine if it was all items instead

that all is part of it, how long the instance takes doesnt matter, the fact that you have no penalty involved and can just go in over and over again, is still the main factor in our low drop rates and its what needs fixing

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The point is that once you beat it you will have nothing to do. We are here to play a game, not sit around, and if there are large cooldown timers, sure we will get the gear we want but we also wont have anything to use it on. Even if we put a 24 hour cooldown which in my opinion should be the minimum time a lockout should be for 100% reward content on on the current content a linkshells raid schedule would break down like this, assuming people wanted to do every piece of content currently available

Darkhold (why bother) with 8 people doable in less than 20 minutes
Aurum Vale - (Skilled party) less than 20 minutes
Cutters cry - (skilled party) Less than 20 minutes
Hamlet defense - ~20 minuets

Ifrit (skilled party) - killable in less than 4
Moogles (skilled party) killable in ~10
Garuda - killable in less than 10

Am i missing anything? Half of this content people don't do anymore because they have all of their items from them already, but even under the assumption they don't have all the items, all this content is doable in about 2 hours a day adding travel and afks between the instances. What is there to do the rest of the time other than craft and spirit bond.

I am all for having longer lockout times for higher rewards as long as the instances themselves arent a complete joke and doable in 20 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Honestly, I think a 100% drop rate would not be any fun either. Otherwise for groups that have CC/AV/and the Primals mastered for example, they'd do their hour or so of content with their normal group then log out. I personally would rather have a drop rate akin to the moogle fight or stronghold coffer keys on high-end content and keep the cool-down as is. I'd much rather be able to spam the instances having fun with my LS mates for hours, than win once and not be able to train new folks in the same day.

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and this is the view that alot of people had when darkhold first came out

its a lose lose situation in many cases

you either have good drop rates, with cooldowns, and not being able to do stuff as often

or you get to do stuff nonstop, and get burned out on it, with a low drop rate

but if you give people a good drop rate, and no cooldown, then everyone gets everything too quickly and thats another problem altogether

or you raise the requirement, give it a higher drop rate, and keep the cooldown, and then people go off about how you need to spam it too many times in order to finish it too


no matter how you look at it, something will be a problem with alot of people in the game, but whats the lesser evil?

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Originally Posted by Req

The point is that once you beat it you will have nothing to do. We are here to play a game, not sit around, and if there are large cooldown timers, sure we will get the gear we want but we also wont have anything to use it on. Even if we put a 24 hour cooldown on on the current content a linkshellst would break down like this, assuming people wanted to do every piece of content currently available

Darkhold (why bother) with 8 people doable in less than 20 minutes
Aurum Vale - (Skilled party) less than 20 minutes
Cutters cry - (skilled party) Less than 20 minutes
Hamlet defense - ~20 minuets

Ifrit (skilled party) - killable in less than 4
Moogles (skilled party) killable in ~10
Garuda - killable in less than 10

Am i missing anything? Half of this content people don't do anymore because they have all of their items from them already, but even under the assumption they don't have all the items, all this content is doable in about 2 hours a day adding travel and afks beaten the instances. What is there to do the rest of the time other than craft and spirit bond.

I am all for having longer lockout times for higher rewards as long as the instances themselves arent a complete joke and doable in 20 minutes.

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all that in 2 hours or so, not counting breaks you make take in between each

24 hour cooldown is what i think woulda been fair on most everything

so you play as a group for 2 hours a day...that pretty much seems like a good ammount of time to me


when i say longer cooldowns it doesnt even have to be week cooldowns(like several games have) or even half week, you can base the cooldown on how long the individual instance is

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

and this is the view that alot of people had when darkhold first came out

its a lose lose situation in many cases

you either have good drop rates, with cooldowns, and not being able to do stuff as often

or you get to do stuff nonstop, and get burned out on it, with a low drop rate

but if you give people a good drop rate, and no cooldown, then everyone gets everything too quickly and thats another problem altogether

or you raise the requirement, give it a higher drop rate, and keep the cooldown, and then people go off about how you need to spam it too many times in order to finish it too


no matter how you look at it, something will be a problem with alot of people in the game, but whats the lesser evil?

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The solution is clear as day; have some content that works one way, and some that works the other way.

How about we have both? Instead of being locked out of the content after you win, there is a 24 hour or so period where you can do the fight, but you will not get anything, or get stuff like DM and such.

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Originally Posted by Masamune1004

How about we have both? Instead of being locked out of the content after you win, there is a 24 hour or so period where you can do the fight, but you will not get anything, or get stuff like DM and such.

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LOL, i hate to say it, but do you really think people will do it when theres a 100% chance of them getting nothing

But yeah Molly, there is a middle ground, and you can vary it from piece of content to piece of content.


I personaly think stuff should be on a 12-24 hour cooldown, everything we can do at the moment, based on how long the fights are.

I also am against a cooldown for a LOSS(which is what most games give you) which would apply to the primals, but not the dungeons(obviously)


but right now, i think the main issue we are presented with is that people wanted the system we have now, but dont want to admit thats what they asked for. They wanted to have their cake and eat it too.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

all that in 2 hours or so, not counting breaks you make take in between each

24 hour cooldown is what i think woulda been fair on most everything

so you play as a group for 2 hours a day...that pretty much seems like a good ammount of time to me


when i say longer cooldowns it doesnt even have to be week cooldowns(like several games have) or even half week, you can base the cooldown on how long the individual instance is

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Youre missing the point that half of that content isn't worth doing at the moment though, thats why im stressing it for the future. I was very generous with the amount of content people would do if there were 24 hour cooldowns. The reality of it at the moment though is alot of established linkshells already have most if not all of their ifrit/moogle weapons that they want and are closing in on finishing garuda. Darkhold hasn't been worth doing since they released the materia patch. That right there already knocks out half of the content most linkshells would do so it would basically just turn into hamlet/cutters/aurum every night for a little over an hour, which then would bring along the question of

"whats the point in paying 9.99 a month for this game when I only get to experience the content for an hour a night?"

I agree with you that the 24 hours is fair though, all i am saying is the content needs to last longer. I wouldn't mind it if each dungeon used the timer to its fullest instead of having to speed through it so we could be doing 2-3 things each night and it would take up an average nights worth of raid time.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

LOL, i hate to say it, but do you really think people will do it when theres a 100% chance of them getting nothing

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For learning the fight and helping out others, yes. But I suppose they could have a small chance to get the items like we do now, or maybe they would only be able to get totems.

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Originally Posted by Req

Youre missing the point that half of that content isn't worth doing at the moment though, thats why im stressing it for the future. I was very generous with the amount of content people would do if there were 24 hour cooldowns. The reality of it at the moment though is alot of established linkshells already have most if not all of their ifrit/moogle weapons that they want and are closing in on finishing garuda. Darkhold hasn't been worth doing since they released the materia patch. That right there already knocks out half of the content most linkshells would do so it would basically just turn into hamlet/cutters/aurum every night for a little over an hour, which then would bring along the question of

"whats the point in paying 9.99 a month for this game when I only get to experience the content for an hour a night?"

I agree with you that the 24 hours is fair though, all i am saying is the content needs to last longer. I wouldn't mind it if each dungeon used the timer to its fullest instead of having to speed through it so we could be doing 2-3 things each night and it would take up an average nights worth of raid time.

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yeah, we do need longer content, but in the end, thats another problem

Right now we have 30-60 minute timers, we obviously dont need those full timers
and you also can not use the fastest players as the basis for how long everything should take(ifrit should be based on 10 minutes, not 4, AV/CC on 40, not 20 and so on) cuz not everyone speeds everything, a majority dont

They could keep the cooldowns short but instead do a sort of point-based progression like Assault or Einherjar.

To prevent spamming, they could have GCs do the same thing as Assault Tags. If you have a tag you get points. But if you don't you can still go in but don't get points.

To avoid it being a "fatigue" debacle they could put in quests to get more tags in a window. Use your tags, do the quests to get more tags, whatever you don't use by the reset is lost. That way hardcore players aren't impeded too much.

The content should be cooperative, the progress to reward should be personal.

I'm fine with whichever way they go, but I could get behind actual lock-outs for higher drop rates, though the rates do need to be noticeably higher. I also would really only be okay with the lock-outs for successful runs, nothing makes losing worse than not being able to try again.

Yeah.
Fight Ifrit with a lamp = 100% drop and after that 24h cooldown but you are always able to enter the battle without a lamp and you don't get a drop.

Something like that...

Sounds 100 times better for me than what we have now for me.

I'd prefer a tags system (like guildleves) for the content with have now (8 ppl, 30-60 mins). Cooldown means that if you have a party that can play for 2-3h, you have to fill this time with different fights, moving from one place to another (slight waste). And if there is a (new) player in your party who doesn't have access to every content yet, it gets worse.
(or you just disband after the first win. big waste :| )
Cooldown also means that if my linkshell is planning to do X content this evening, I can't do it during the afternoon even if there is this interesting /shout.

I think cooldown is better suited for content that actually last 2-3h.

Could always do more then 1 dungeon/primal while your on lockout...

Some people are always gonna burn out when they fixate on a single instance over and over. Personally i'm fine with lockout periods.

If i had a deciding vote i'd go with a 4-6 hour lockout with a fairly good (25%-ish) drop rate, with a 100% totem/dungeon mark drop rate. Combine tangible progress Totem type mechanic, with better drop rate for a 4 hour lockout. You could do about 4-8 different dungeons/primals by the time your first runs timer is up.

Solution? In 2.0:
-no speed run,
-longer raids,
-more content to do in a day,
-12/24h bind at least in Hardmode
- much higher drop rate

My idea won't appease some of the casuals, but I think group content should produce 100% droprate on x amount of items per boss and last a minimum of 2 hours (not timed, but how long it actually takes to clear) with a 24 hour lockout based on entry time upon clearing it.

Ideally we would have a couple dungeons or whatever we can do at any given point in a current content patch. That way you can alternate between dungeons per night (or do them all if have more time to dedicate) and have time to do other things on your own. The last bit is more of a personal thing since I log on and do fights all night and don't have time to do what I want to do, but that's neither here nor there.

My problem is the repetitiveness of the current content. While yes, I would be doing said content everyday, I would be doing varied things once per day instead of fighting the same boss over and over 7-8 times per night. Garuda was the most predictable loot design we've had up until now because we knew after 20 wins (140 for everything worst case) we would gain at least one weapon if one didn't drop on its own. Fighting the same thing over and over and over in one sitting is just tedious and bland.

I agree with your OP, but I would stand to add:

Right now, skill isn't being properly rewarded. The group which does a 5 chest run without any deaths without using fruit at AV has the SAME % drop rate with their chests that a group which did a 3-4 chest run with several deaths and almost all 60 mins used does. It's ridiculous, I'm completely fine with RNG but only if it's fair :L

So, my ideal type of instance would be one that:
- has a cooldown on reentry after a certain number of attempts, or otherwise controlled
- has a decent starting drop rate that increases significantly with better performance (no deaths, faster runs, complete clear of instance)
- has a level of difficulty in line with desirability of drops

Right now there is TONS of content to do. But the problem is that the reason why a lot of people are still doing the content isn't that it's necessarily fun (although some of it is), it's that the drop rate is so low that you have to farm DL for months on end, and there are still a lot of unlucky people who need primal drops. If there is an item (let's say, for example, something as good as a relic or better), and the instance/NM to obtain it is hard enough to match the level of desirability for that item, then having a drop rate of 5% or lower is completely fine because it's a f*cking amazing ass item.

But right now Corselet and Heavy DL bodies aren't even necessarily the BEST pieces (compared to double-meld crafted), yet their drop rate is ridiculously low. And because the % is so low there's a very real possibility that some people will simply never see one drop. For an item that isn't of Excalibur/Lengendary level, that's pretty silly. Right now, with non-elite pieces, let's keep the drop rate reasonable.