Criterion dungeons are going to exacerbate a lot of the problems we have now and if they're tuned to be even somewhat similar to savage raids, there's going to be some major issues. Double melee is probably going to be very popular if dungeon mechanics don't force strict spreads since role bonus isn't as important and it's going to be hard to justify the significant gap between BLM and RDM/SMN who get doubly penalized for being support dps and having non-functional raises.
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09-20-2022, 03:55 PMAtmaweapon510Can we close the gap between Ranged/Melee and Casters before criterion dungeons?
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09-20-2022, 04:00 PMSemirhage
Considering the fact that CBU3 believes the monstrous rez taxes on SMN and RDM are "justified" in making them inferior to melee in basically every single way, I can pretty much guarantee that having non-functional utility in criterion dungeons that the entire kits are taxed for won't have any refund for it. Healers were expected to just deal with being glorified Esuna dispensers for Rathalos while everyone else got to have fun. Meleewalker is designed for melee DPS and Black Mage to have fun.
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09-20-2022, 07:16 PMMithronBLM doesn't have fun unless it's #1 DPS which it's currently not, just sayingQuote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
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09-20-2022, 09:03 PMKeichi
Is this realy necressary?
Whe have allready 3-4 threads, where people complaining about the gap.
And yet a new one for a content, where whe dont even know, how it is looking? -
09-20-2022, 09:28 PMCithaerias_pyropinaIt's always wait and see with you people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keichi
The writing is on the wall. Red Mage and Summoner are almost guaranteed to be completely barred from the 2 higher difficulty versions when the likes of Bard and Dancer exist and will be far safer to play, have more damage, have unlimited mobility and have utility that isn't outright rendered useless in the version of Criterion where you cannot res people who die.
There will also only be room for 4 jobs so you can't get all 5 roles to begin with to have that 5% buff. So it won't be a necessity to take a caster. So the safest comp will likely be Melee and Phys ranged. Melee/Melee will likely be meta if a large portion of the boss's hitboxes are arena sized or the bosses go invulnerable an obscene amount of times.
Oh how exciting it will be to see a Monk in nearly every Criterion prog and clear party. /s -
09-20-2022, 09:31 PMCKNovelYes it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keichi
Why? Because of giant hitbox with free positionnals.
You want to think the "logical way", then think logically about what will happen if this gap keeps existing.
In your logic way, do you think any group for criterion dungeon will open their door to a physical range?
Or RDM and SMN as their resurrection will be utterly useless? -
09-20-2022, 09:40 PMKeichi
I dont even know, how the specifics of this content is.^^
I think simply, that it would be similary to palace of the dead, the bozja Front and this ruins from bozja. Means, that you enter it with random people. Or can have a wide mix. And, that the bosses can be as big of variation, as the bosses from the front (some very easy, some a big pain in the ...).
I never thinked about it, that it would be similary complicated, as savage stuff. For me, it would be something around this dragon thing from stormblood (where you even dont have ress and heal at some point).
In short: simply waiting up and see, how things are coming (learned it in the rl, that thinking about stuff, before they are coming or happens is useless, it is coming in most cases other ways, or not in the form, how people thinked). -
09-20-2022, 09:42 PMCKNovelBack in ShB we also were in the "wait and see" mindset.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keichi
Guess where we are now. -
09-20-2022, 10:04 PMKalaam
We already know that criterion dungeon at max difficulty is intended to be a challenging content, with limited respawn mechanics and normal raises disabled. That's already enough information to know that SMN and RDM's "edge" over BLM (raise usage for prog) will be useless.
If the dps checks are as tight as savage, you know those jobs will be banned from party finder day one. -
09-20-2022, 10:50 PMRansu
I highly doubt the criterion savage dungeons will be on the same difficulty curve as savage raids.
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09-20-2022, 11:33 PMKalaam
That we cannot know, all we know is that they made it harder than normal version, have more rules/restrictions, no raise, ennemy respawn on wipe and enemies getting stronger if you are too slow to progress.
And it has to be called "savage" for a reason, while not as tight as a late raid fight in savage, I expect it to be similar in difficulty. That's the informations we were given, so the expectations are set and reasonable. -
09-21-2022, 01:58 AMHermitUK
For those who missed the last live letter, there will be two difficulties of the Criterion dungeon, normal and Savage.
This is the info they gave for Savage:
https://i.imgur.com/l5YClNs.jpg
Note in particular there are time limits to kill things, meaning DPS will matter a great deal for smooth clears
This is from Balance, it's live translations of Yoshida's comments:
https://i.imgur.com/7A3QFOi.jpg
I reckon his comment that normal mode will be Savage difficulty might be hyperbole, but the Savage mode is certainly not going to be easy. Also, he mentions that gear from the raids will be important to clear, so it doesn't have its own progression system like PotD / HoH. So the balance we see in Savage will absolutely matter here.
If AoE opportunities are good then casters may get a look in, otherwise Melee/Melee or Melee/DNC are likely to be meta comps. -
09-21-2022, 02:08 AMLiam_Harper
SMN is decent on aoe and will be worth the 1% buff, but there will be no reason to bring phys ranged and AST is a liability.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...t=75&class=Any -
09-21-2022, 03:02 AMRansuI'm still curious what kind of rewards will be in them. Its gotta be something unique if there's no progression otherwise people wont run them.Quote:
Originally Posted by HermitUK
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09-21-2022, 06:14 AMCKNovelA bit off topic but we know a mount will be tied to this content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ransu
I think it would be cool if we coul get ilvl630 gear.
At least accessories, they're a pain to get and the ring is sometimes so trash you'd rather have a crafted pentameld ring. -
09-21-2022, 07:13 AMKeichi
Normal is on savage lvl?
Mäh, sound like to hard or not worth the time for me (how should this be even possible, with no need of specific roles?).
At last isnt savage something for me. -
09-21-2022, 07:15 AMKeichiWhere are we?Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNovel
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09-21-2022, 07:20 AMSupersnow845DNC will also be worth the AOE especially if you dancer partner something like a SMN or SAM if there is an AOE componentQuote:
Originally Posted by Liam_Harper
Tech step has lower scaling with 4 mans but DNC still exceeds a good chunk of the DPS -
09-21-2022, 08:10 AMRansuYoshi-P also said the most recent alliance raid and EX4 would be more difficult than usual and that turned out to be false so I highly doubt normal mode will be savage level of difficulty. I love Yoshi-P, but he does tend to exaggerate sometimes lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keichi
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09-21-2022, 09:43 AMSatarnIt's about the normal mode Criterion dungeon, which is going to be role-restricted and meant to be difficult - although it's still probably some exaggeration, as Yoshi P has oversold the difficulty or just about every content he's bragged about since 5.0. I wouldn't be surprised if the dps checks and mechanics were actually no different between normal and savage Criterion, with the latter just getting its extra difficulty from the timer and removal of variant-rez and AoE indicators. Would explain why they recommend it to people who've cleared the savage tier, as you're basically meant to "speedrun" it due to the timer-based buffs - which I imagine is indeed going to be a shiteshow with current DPS balance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keichi
What you're thinking of is the Variant dungeon, which allows for any roles and gives you variant-actions that compensate for any holes in your party comp. Variant is the casual one with multiple routes and story, while Criterion is a sort of "challenge mode" in both versions. -
09-21-2022, 04:18 PMKeichiAh ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by Satarn
i dont care much about this underground dungeon (yet), and thinked, that criterion is simply the name for this kind of content. -
09-21-2022, 04:43 PMCKNovelIn a meta where RDM&MCH are banned from party finder and DNC is broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keichi
MCH has no value since 6.1 and only 1 feedback has been listened to since 5.0.
Melees gameplay is similar to physical ranged due to bosses massive hitbox.
SMN is an oversimplified job that deals better damage than the much less mobile RDM.
We're in a pitiful cave. What should've been one of the greatest patch turned out to be an unbalanced mess. -
09-21-2022, 04:51 PMCithaerias_pyropinaRemember that wait and see attitude with White Mage's on-release lilies in Stormblood that had to be hotfixed buffed not even a week later and were either buffed/reworked almost every patch until the devs said to hell with it and made Divine Benison no longer require lilies to use which ultimately made lilies useless for the rest of Stormblood?Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNovel
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09-21-2022, 04:53 PMSupersnow845Toilet paper lily’s were so bad it was actually funny that by like 4.3 they just hotfixed them to “ignore them we will rework the system in 5.0”Quote:
Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina
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09-21-2022, 09:37 PMLyth
I think that equalizing rdps across all DPS subtypes is an excellent idea and encourages fair competition.
That being said, I think that they should scrap the physical ranged/magical ranged distinction and merge them into a unified 'ranged' role, with two slots for melee and two slots for ranged in 8 player content. -
09-21-2022, 09:56 PMSupersnow845They would have to equal buff job rDPS to selfish job aDPS otherwise selfish jobs will always be better because rDPS subtracts DPS from the class getting buffedQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
Otherwise I agree with all your points -
09-21-2022, 10:13 PMLyth
All DPS jobs should provide the same rdps, as rdps attributes the damage gain from a buff to the job that supplies it, rather than the job being buffed. As such, it doesn't matter whether you're a 'selfish' job or not, because your specific contribution to the team for being present is being evaluated. It all comes out in the wash.
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09-21-2022, 10:19 PMbaklava151Yeah it's gonna be interesting because this might be the first time AoE damage becomes an actual consideration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam_Harper
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09-21-2022, 10:44 PMSatarnThey should just get rid of the "sub-roles" within the DPS role, period. All they bring are excuses for bad balance ("well, they're balanced with other jobs in their sub-role!"), concealment for blatant issues (phys ranged being taken, but only for the stat buff), homogenization (several of the oh-so-precious hotkey slots taken by the copy-pasted role skills) and limitation of job design (because they need to fit in with their "roles" somehow).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
There used to be some merit to the sub-roles in the past, melee/ranged division especially, since the raids were usually designed with 4 "melee positions" for mechanics, but that concern seems to be gone now, as are the bait mechanics which made use of the phys-ranged mobility.
While I think it would be way better to also go back to the raid design which did in fact make uptime and movement important, I'd like to believe that we're smart enough to distinguish between "melee" and "ranged" jobs if need be, without the artificial categories being forced upon us. Especially since those divisions don't even work that well in some cases - like when you wanted to put a RDM or DNC in a "melee position" because their close-range skills lined up with the mechanic or just didn't want to force your BLM to run to Narnia, while they could've spent that time casting. -
09-22-2022, 03:41 AMLyth
I think that most players prefer to be at range if you give them that option and that's reflected as well in the job numbers if you remove the artificial 'physical/magical' ranged distinction. And as you noted, things naturally get dicey when you have more than two melee competing for space around the boss. I think that most groups would opt for either a 1/3 or 0/4 melee/ranged split if you gave them the option.
Right now a 2/2 split is enforced through rdps considerations alone. I agree that the rdps distinction shouldn't be there, but I also wouldn't want to see the standard shift towards predominantly ranged compositions. I like the fact that half of your team plays in melee range and half plays at range, even when you include supports into the mix. If they ever start releasing ranged tanks and melee healers, then that might be a different story. -
09-22-2022, 04:44 AMKeiisukeI am playing a ranged DPS job, and to be honest, I spend most of my time sticking with everyone else behind the boss to get every heal, shield and buff that I can possibly get to survive the next mech.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
I wish I could tell you that I can live my best life running at every corner of the boss arena, but in reality If I do that my healer will get mad and kick me out of the party.
Right now, I don't feel any difference between me and a melee DPS, since we have gigantic hitboxes one of the biggest advantages that the role had has been taken away. -
09-22-2022, 05:19 AMFendredPersonally, I would rather have Criterion dungeons be an alternative to savage content rather than a continuation of it. That would have catered to a lot more people. Not sure why they would want to cater to hardcore players when they already have ultimates.Quote:
Originally Posted by HermitUK
Plus, it would make recruiting for savage easier: Release criterion dungeon a few weeks before savage tier to let players form 4 man groups. Then when the tier comes out recruitment involves pairing up your 4 man group with another 4 man group, which is a much less nuanced process than having to find 4 individual players. -
09-22-2022, 06:35 AMSupersnow845It has to be rDPS=aDPS for selfish jobs otherwise it will unfairly balance selfish jobsQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
If you are in a party with a DNC RDM RPR BLM DRG AST and SCH and in this party the BLM and RDM are doing exactly the same damage then put the same BLM in a party consisting of a SAM MCH WHM SGE SMN and BLM then the BLM will do more damage because in the original example the BLM is having damage subtracted off it because it is getting buffed but is not buffing others, so when no buffs apply to it it would be too strong -
09-22-2022, 08:58 AMDogempireYea no, I've seen the most absolutely convoluted strats to give melee dps 1 or 2 more gcd's, there's no way melee won't be able to keep their uptime. Heck even if melee has to take a few GCD's to do a mechanic they'll still end up doing more damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
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09-22-2022, 11:46 PMIvtrixquite possibly the worst balance this game has ever seen, thats where we areQuote:
Originally Posted by Keichi
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09-23-2022, 12:04 AMCKNovelNope, everyone is behind the bossQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
The game basically forces anyone to play at close range because healers and mitigation have limited range.
Also since many mechanics needs you to be at close range to the boss in case said boss does a in/out mechanics, you're once again stuck to the boss hitbox regardless of your role.
Also takes in account mechanics like share and proteans, it's much better to stick to the boss.
4 ranged won't happen and we have the proof
During Shadowbringers, casters were at the top of foodchain. BLM and SMN were monsters, RDM was very good as well, it was better than melees in a certain encounter.
Melees couldn't even Feint magical raidwides.
Logically, most group would be 1 melee / 1 p.range / 2 casters, right?
Nope, most groups were going 2 melees/ 1 p.range / 1 caster.
Again, it's been said for years now:
Players rarely stick to meta, they often stick to their favorite jobs.
This tier was the exception that confirmed the rule, even then a lot of groups kept their off meta composition. -
09-23-2022, 06:02 AMAikaal
I would say that raid buffs will lose weight because you only have 4 players. I do think Bard will fall further behind. Now, Dancer is much more interesting because they give a massive buff to 1 DPS. Samurai + Dancer is definitely within possibility.
Also, how exactly is it timed? Do we have to clear trash? Because if there's a ton of AoE trash to deal, there are some jobs that are really good at dealing with those. Summoner is really great for those. If it's something like, "Clear the dungeon within 12 minutes" It's not a boss enrage but a dungeon timer.
In any case, we don't have sufficient information to start crying out about it. If we go pure meta, 15 jobs are getting removed out of 19 from the meta so. -
09-23-2022, 06:51 AMMithron
It's also important to note that when it comes to trash, how fast jobs can burst and reburst beyond the 2 minute window will matter, too. SMN excels at expert roulette because they can do massive AoE burst constantly with every single summon, far better than RDM or even BLM IMO.
We also don't know how much you'll heal between pulls, or even if you will at all. This will put more emphasis on PLD and WAR with better self healing tools than particularly DRK. -
09-23-2022, 07:16 AMAikaal
If this is anything similar to WoW where you need to clear trash, Warrior is likely to be really strong. I'll take an extra minute on bosses if it means it means saving 2 minutes on trash.
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09-23-2022, 08:01 AMSupersnow845I mean WAR isn’t strong on AOE damage it just has incredible sustain on trash, so unless you mean WAR sustain will be saving enough healing GCD’s to move the dial then I think you might have a slightly inflated idea of healing requirementsQuote:
Originally Posted by Aikaal