I know threads like this exist already, but my two cents to this whole debacle after being cheeses by plds in Onsal for basically every node just now and flames giving up and fighting second place instead of first:
Make attacks interrupt plds through hallowed.
Same for the person they cover.
With this, you can still protect people with cover and hallowed, but it is NOT free objective.
I know pld has 3 consistend counterplays, aka dancer, reaper and warrior.
Dancer range sucks and having to play reaper and or warrior just to counter it sucks, also.
And warrior can't break hallowed ground.
Just because it "has" some sort of counterplay it does not mean it is good counterplay.
Stuns etc. don't go through guard, even if it would, the person they have covered can still cap the objective.
Hence: Interruption.
Get attacked? Interrupted, just as it always worked.
Simple solution for Cover/Hallowed ground cheese
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09-07-2022, 04:23 AMCheremiaSimple solution for Cover/Hallowed ground cheese
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09-07-2022, 12:22 PMLorentz
The fact that this cheese has been going on for so long and SE has done nothing to address it despite the obvious damage it does to the enjoyment of PvP in Onsal is quite the shame to put it very politely. When two people can simply alter the entire course of a Frontline via a cheese that is very terrible pvp job design at work.
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09-07-2022, 01:13 PMGordonGeeko
I wouldn't put it politely. This is pure incompetence.
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09-07-2022, 04:02 PMCheremiaAye and it seems like they don‘t know a solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorentz
Hallowed and cover don‘t need changes (plds are not immune to cc while just in hg after all) to avoid cheese
Interruping is the best way since it does not take away from how pld is played but one coordinated duo ( or more) can‘t „cheat the system“
I mean, we could just join them but that would ruin it even more…
Maybe we should make the mode unplayable for them to do something
Note: am aware that they apparently WANT to change it but that was more important than WINRATE ONLY buffs/nerfs, which is stupid without playrates shown -
09-10-2022, 01:47 AMNecrotica
It is a sad situation. I have heard many players say horrible things about the developers over this. I won't name and shame cause of rules, but I have heard such things as
should be fired
should be tied down and beaten with wet noodles
are a bunch of idiots
are so retarded as to make god question creating mankind
These are horrible things to hear and I try to defend the developers, but it is not easy. -
09-10-2022, 02:29 AMGordonGeeko
Why do you want to defend them ?
Are you happy with the current state of PVP ?
You think it's okay to have an exploit that completely changes the way the game is played ? Even when that exploit has been discussed for MONTHS ?
I won't go into all the details why the developers are incompetent since this is a Cover/Hallowed Ground cheese topic. But yes, they should be fired. Maybe try to get people who actually care next time. -
09-10-2022, 02:53 AMRavenwatchThis is a false dilemma fallacy. Just because someone is not taking the extremist route of opinion does not mean they agree with the state of PvP. There is such thing as wishing for them to fix it without resorting to what they listed.Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonGeeko
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09-10-2022, 02:58 AMGordonGeeko
Not calling for them to get beaten up.
But they have to go. They very obviously don't care. Even if they fixed it tomorrow morning, the fact that it lasted so long with very very very little communication is pathetic. We're long past the point of "wishing for a fix".
Not having the resources to address things in a timely manner is not an excuse. They have a responsibility to their paying customers to deliver a quality product, that yes, includes PVP.
It's not something that most people don't agree with like the 60% damage mitigation on melees, which sucks, but whatever. It's an exploit changing the game with little to no counterplay.
If it was a PVE exploit that allowed you to easily beat savage/ultimate raids, it would be hotfixed overnight. But PVP players are always treated like second-class citizens. Sure, this is mostly a story/PVE game, but it's no excuse to give some of your players a completely broken product. -
09-10-2022, 05:23 AMMayhemmerAsking for some nebulous employee(s) who will never be named regardless to be let go from their jobs is absurd and always will be. No player has been harmed or lost their livelihoods over some pvp exploit, regardless of how annoying it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonGeeko
Just make your discontent be heard on the matter, but staying civil about it is better for everybody in the long run. -
09-10-2022, 05:40 AMGordonGeeko
Jesus, is hurting someone the bare minimum to get fired these days ?
I don't care if that team are the nicest people in the world, if they donate their free time to the homeless shelter and save kitten from trees.
They should be nowhere close to PVP.
It's the PLD Cover cheese not getting fixed.
It's the cheaters/hackers only getting banned after 3 months and 100 reports.
It's the balance changes that are pushed so fast and without being tested, so they have to adjust them back the next day.
It's just incompetence. -
09-10-2022, 05:58 AMMayhemmerThen say that, not that they should be jobless.Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonGeeko
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09-11-2022, 09:37 AMRueby
It's funny how in these threads you still find people fanatically defending the devs and settle for less cause 'muh dev does nothing wrong and muh game is perfect uwu' meanwhile afks in limsa :rolleyes:
I highly doubt their pvp overhaul was tested in frontlines, or if they care about that mode (or people who play pvp for that matter/and anyone in the EN community) but hey you have to understand, small indie company /s -
09-11-2022, 01:17 PMDivinemightsYou had it wrong right at beginning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheremia
The easiest and most effective counter is MNK's enlightenment, it has 10M cast range and 15M knockback distance to break PLD's Guardian line. (Enlightenment knock back effect still active even PLD has Hollwground)
MNK also doesn't need assistance for survival when try to stop PLD guardian
Also, this problem is unique to EU and NA because of lack of communication.
There is no communication within party and everyone just mindless running around.
How are you going to counter a strategy without communication?
I also surprised how you are going to counter this strategy when deliberately ignore the existence of MNK? -
09-13-2022, 09:03 PMCheremiaNot many people want to play Monk just to counter PLD, even if told to kill/stun/whatever plds it rarely happens. The frontlines i'm in usually have people say objectives, to disengage, to ignore certain objectives because last place can have them with no problems if not just outright ignored etc. There has not been a single time it was quiet when PLDs started cheesing the Objective, too. People following through is another thing tho.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinemights
I forgot that Monk existed tbh, so.... uh, yeah, Monk can also push people around. I forgot, even if I hate when monks do it to me, lmao, Stupid pingpong-cuddles...
There ARE counterplays against it, not that i say there was not.
But while it may push the PLD, the one they cover does not get pushed, right? Not sure how it interacted with that specific push right now.
And it doesn't push through guard either tho, right?
It IS a thing and It IS a problem, plds can literally just wait with HG until after they got lbed, if they are not focused down they will not die after all.
Especially if there's multiple of them, which happened more than once to me, too
Literally the easiest solution to not having one tactic that goes around the whole point of the mode, except you have any of the classes that counter it, which some people may not want to play (dancer range SUCKS and their lb also SUCKS, why do they have to shake so much before it works), is to make the pld in HG and the people they cover, being interrupted when attacked.
Nothing more, i know you can still cc HG-ed Plds, but it still doesn't affect covered people.
It is mostly the issue that the people they cover are immune to pretty much everything, not the pld themself, since cover cheese was always a thing, guard just made it worse. -
09-13-2022, 11:53 PMMistress_Irika
I have a slightly better solution.
If they're not going to change the kit around remove the ability to regenerate LB outside of combat. That way, if PLDs want to use this strategy they have to participate in fights rather than waiting to be full so that it can be used. -
09-14-2022, 12:09 AMLorentzThe issue isn't the LB. its Cover which is entirely independent of the LB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika
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09-14-2022, 04:05 AMVictorSpoils
I've seen the Onsal cheese a few times, but it's not 100% effective i.e. it's still not enough to carry an entire team that isn't trying to win. Countering premades is simply a whole different beast. That SCH squad from Zalera were able to DoT everyone to death because they had better support.
On a more surprising note, it seems PLDs are also cheesing Fields of Glory now. We encountered a four-man premade (only two from Zalera though) that, instead of going after ice, would just hang around an enemy base and combine the absurd mitigation from Phalanx and Guard with Guardian and Elixirs to heal, to the point where ~10 distracted people couldn't deal enough damage to burn one of them down. After a couple losses, I just switched to SAM and Zan'd one of them, but they managed to lose that match anyway. Probably because the matchmaking RNG wasn't in their favor that time.
With that said, they do still need to consider changing Guardian so it doesn't prevent interruptions. The fact that PVP Cover is so great while the PVE version isn't is bizarre. -
09-14-2022, 08:28 AMCheremiaCounterable - yesQuote:
Originally Posted by VictorSpoils
Should it be part of the actual strategy of Frontlines? No, obviously not!
And i KNOW they want to change but yes, the EASIEST change is to make people be interruptable while they are covered.
Premades obviously always play better than some randoms and I know how dangerous sch can be, but at least they can't go invincible.
But i agree, why is pve cover so weirdly bad and pvp cover so good? Well it IS mostly because of guard, but still... -
09-14-2022, 10:03 AMMistress_IrikaMy apologies. I'm overthinking things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorentz
If you want to kill the strategy as well as potting in the middle of the crowd reduce the duration of Guardian (Cover) to 5 seconds.
Potting takes 5 secs.
I'm quite certain that taking objectives takes 5 secs.
Think about it for a minute -
09-14-2022, 05:00 PMCheremiaNo need if the covered person is interruptable, guarding Pld attached to the cover or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika
You do NOT actually need to nerf Cover. Then they have to fight just as much as we do, would also balance the "in your face potting" a bit but tbh, i do not think THAT is a problem.
It is JUST capping interrupting, i just don't know if they could do that without breaking the potting -
09-14-2022, 10:02 PMRavenwatchThe problem with this and what you said before is that you are nerfing the ability based on a technicality in Frontlines, when the technicality itself can be solved by simply making the tethered target interruptable. It is unnecessary collateral damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika
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09-15-2022, 12:11 PMDivinemightsLike I said, the primary reason why NA/EU is having this issue: the lack of communication.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheremia
To begin with, I never like Onsal Hakir even it may sounds I may sound I am defending it but I am only discuss about it from 3rd person's perspective (as someone dislike this mode)
Every time I joined Onsal Hakir, I always ask my alliance to mark the PLD who attempts to use Cover to Capture so easier for me to stop it; but I usually get one of the following:
1. total silence
2. jerky response like you are not my mom
3. Ranting and ranting but no mark
It is not something new, not many will play against Monk in mode like Onsal Hakir due to EU/NA's Horde Stampede style as it is quite a challenge to even stay alive.Quote:
I forgot that Monk existed tbh, so.... uh, yeah, Monk can also push people around. I forgot, even if I hate when monks do it to me, lmao, Stupid pingpong-cuddles...
There ARE counterplays against it, not that i say there was not.
You pushed PLD 15M away to break Cover's 10M line; the target he is covering should be either killed by focus fire or Blota by Warrior away from caputre pointQuote:
But while it may push the PLD, the one they cover does not get pushed, right? Not sure how it interacted with that specific push right now.
And it doesn't push through guard either tho, right?
First of all, I haven't see multiple PLDs doing this at same time on Primal, but yeah our experience may differs.Quote:
It IS a thing and It IS a problem, plds can literally just wait with HG until after they got lbed, if they are not focused down they will not die after all.
Especially if there's multiple of them, which happened more than once to me, too
Also, point is not to kill the PLD, it is simply to break the Guardian line to render PLD becomes useless (they are literally useless this expansion on Frontline from my perspective anyway)
Quote:
Literally the easiest solution to not having one tactic that goes around the whole point of the mode, except you have any of the classes that counter it, which some people may not want to play (dancer range SUCKS and their lb also SUCKS, why do they have to shake so much before it works), is to make the pld in HG and the people they cover, being interrupted when attacked.
Nothing more, i know you can still cc HG-ed Plds, but it still doesn't affect covered people.
It is mostly the issue that the people they cover are immune to pretty much everything, not the pld themself, since cover cheese was always a thing, guard just made it worse.
Nah, it is just EU/NA don't want to deal with it because majority just want an easy way out
The counter play is already effective in play in Asian Onsal Hakir -
09-15-2022, 06:02 PMCheremiaYeah i hate when silence happens or people just don't listen to callouts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinemights
They are there for a reason, please...
And sometimes there are more Plds, sometimes there are less, it only really works with premades since randoms probably don't catch up that quick (seeing that you're covered without a macro is very hard sometimes lol)
And Dancer Lb and Reaper LB also sort of work like that, just not AS well. Warrior also works to disable the PLD guarding so they at least can be hit.
So while i do agree that there ARE counterplayes to the cover cheese, it doesn't mean they always work.
If the Pld is guarding while covering, the push will do nothing.
Like, i KNOW what you mean and i GET it. I AGREE that there ARE ways to counter it.
It is JUST not MANY classes can do it AND those classes have ALL have to run into danger.
The guarding Pld and the covered person attached to them are NOT the only people around, after all, there's like a bunch of other people that you have to get past.
The WHOLE pushing thing goes out of the window if the Paladin is covering and guarding while the covered person caps, since it's the exact lenght of the Guard. 5 seconds somebody said, that's how long potting takes and how long guard is
So in theory, the counterplays are sound and make sense
But do that when there's like, 3 whms lasering at any given point, Drgs jumping at you, Schs dotting you, nins doublestunning you, Drk pushing you around with salted earth, Smn dropping Bahamut at you, Warriors rending at the speed of sound, or blotaing you into their team, Sage lb where you have to get in just to be nuked by the rest of the alliance, Brds silencing, binding, whatever you, Blms doing blm things, Rdms totally fair aoe bind/silence, the random Mch lb that just nukes you.
Chainsaw, that still nukes you if you have the teeniest bit of damage (i'm very unlucky against chainsaws) etc.
There is SO much going on that being like "just do this counter strategy" just doesn't work. You sometimes have to fight both alliances at once, there are a lot of people. Tagreting in pvp is garbage.
There is counterplay, but the counterplay is very inconsistend and everybody that CAN counter it, has to get very close and uhm... well, let's just say that having to adjust to a singular pld and watch closely to what they do when and wait out their Guard (which is too late ANYWAYS) is basically impossible if 10 other people hit you at any given point if you stay in their melee range.
The point of Onsal is not to revolve your strategy around cheesing plds
but to smartly pursue nodes, leave nodes two alliances are tunnlevisioning over to snag other nodes, to fend off people smartly (at least try to), sandwich the winning team from time to time while also praying to rng that the winning team doesn't get all the good nodespawns (happened yesterday, was fun)
Edit: I'd like to say again that i do not want cover to be nerfed.
I just want the covered person to be interruptable while capping points, since that would basically just get rid of the cheese entirely without crippling cover.