Chainsaw's Instant Kill should be removed

It doesn't matter how uncommon it is, it is dumb.

Thanks!

Counterpoint: Insta-kill should be increased to 10-15% against melee and tanks since that is the only way MCH has any chance to kill anything other than ranged now. Spite hits for only ~25-30% of the health of a melee or tank with the changes to DR. Reassemble + Drill/Saw/AA comboed with Spite now maybe does 50%. At which point the tank or melee turns around and then stunlocks and curb-stomps you into the ground.

Meanwhile a NIN can still stunlock, burst you to 50% and then execute before you can clear the Stun with Purge and even if you could, it hits you through Guard.

The PvP balance team currently consists of a monkey banging on a keyboard with a coconut.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

Counterpoint: Insta-kill should be increased to 10-15% against melee and tanks since that is the only way MCH has any chance to kill anything other than ranged now. Spite hits for only ~25-30% of the health of a melee or tank with the changes to DR. Reassemble + Drill/Saw/AA comboed with Spite now maybe does 50%. At which point the tank or melee turns around and then stunlocks and curb-stomps you into the ground.

Meanwhile a NIN can still stunlock, burst you to 50% and then execute before you can clear the Stun with Purge and even if you could, it hits you through Guard.

The PvP balance team currently consists of a monkey banging on a keyboard with a coconut.

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Countercounterpoint: What?

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

Countercounterpoint: What?

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What do you mean what? The DR changed to melee and tanks have made it nearly impossible for MCH to secure kills because it not only nerfed their burst combo, but it also nerfed their LB to the point of uselessness. The insta-kill on Saw is the only useful thing they have at this point.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

What do you mean what? The DR changed to melee and tanks have made it nearly impossible for MCH to secure kills because it not only nerfed their burst combo, but it also nerfed their LB to the point of uselessness. The insta-kill on Saw is the only useful thing they have at this point.

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Oh, you meant Frontline. I still disagree but at least that makes a lot more sense. They can certainly still kill people, it's just harder for everyone.

It's not harder for melee or tanks, it's much MUCH easier. They gained huge amounts of DR and lost none of their damage to compensate.

It's just harder for ranged, specifically ranged physical.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

It's not harder for melee or tanks, it's much MUCH easier. They gained huge amounts of DR and lost none of their damage to compensate.

It's just harder for ranged, specifically ranged physical.

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But they did lose damage? Because the blanket Damage Resistance affects them too, they're not exempt from it. Pretty sure even ranged got a DR buff.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

Counterpoint: Insta-kill should be increased to 10-15% against melee and tanks since that is the only way MCH has any chance to kill anything other than ranged now. Spite hits for only ~25-30% of the health of a melee or tank with the changes to DR. Reassemble + Drill/Saw/AA comboed with Spite now maybe does 50%. At which point the tank or melee turns around and then stunlocks and curb-stomps you into the ground.

Meanwhile a NIN can still stunlock, burst you to 50% and then execute before you can clear the Stun with Purge and even if you could, it hits you through Guard.

The PvP balance team currently consists of a monkey banging on a keyboard with a coconut.

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Yeah cuz random insta-kill mechanic should be the way to balance the mode. Keep it up proud of ya

I play a mch mainly in pvp, and I can tell you it procs like once every say 10-15 match, just because it unluckily killed you, doesn't mean it's a game breaking OP skill and needs to be nerfed or even removed all together, to be honest I would like it to be buffed as well and maybe have a 10% chance the closer the enemy are.

Needs a buff tbh. Having it proc maybe one per 5-10 matches isn't good. If you're unlucky to get hit by it, well rng wasn't in your favor.

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Originally Posted by Shahar

Yeah cuz random insta-kill mechanic should be the way to balance the mode. Keep it up proud of ya

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I'm not saying it is. I'm saying that ranged physical generally and MCH specifically are now free kills because they have no innate defenses allowing melee to obliterate them with no fear of dying no matter how well played the rpDPS is. The melee DPS used to have to be careful because of the burst that MCH could bring to bear on demand. Now, even with burst combo you at best bring them to half health and they can then disembowel you with impunity knowing you can do nothing to stop them.

These kind of blanket nerfs/buffs with no comprehension of the impacts are absurd. I reiterate, the PvP balance team consists of a monkey banging on a keyboard with a coconut.

They wanted to increase TTK against melee, making them now unkillable to an entire group of jobs. Yet they left NIN untouched with their execute that works through Guard and gave them blanket melee DR so they have zero fear of diving into a group, obliterating the rpDPS then bailing out with their dash. I just played a match where I was literally getting chunked for 1/3 of my health by a NIN throwing a shuriken where if I'm lucky I can do that much to a melee DPS with a LB.

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Originally Posted by Leathium

I play a mch mainly in pvp, and I can tell you it procs like once every say 10-15 match, just because it unluckily killed you, doesn't mean it's a game breaking OP skill and needs to be nerfed or even removed all together, to be honest I would like it to be buffed as well and maybe have a 10% chance the closer the enemy are.

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Died to it twice in a single match. : (

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Originally Posted by Thvedan

Needs a buff tbh. Having it proc maybe one per 5-10 matches isn't good. If you're unlucky to get hit by it, well rng wasn't in your favor.

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Having it proc at all isn't good. It has no place being in a competitive gamemode, this isn't Mario Party.

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

Having it proc at all isn't good. It has no place being in a competitive gamemode, this isn't Mario Party.

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Neither does the amount of CC with no diminishing returns and completely buggy/laggy Purge. Pick your battles.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

Counterpoint: Insta-kill should be increased to 10-15% against melee and tanks since that is the only way MCH has any chance to kill anything other than ranged now. Spite hits for only ~25-30% of the health of a melee or tank with the changes to DR. Reassemble + Drill/Saw/AA comboed with Spite now maybe does 50%. At which point the tank or melee turns around and then stunlocks and curb-stomps you into the ground.

Meanwhile a NIN can still stunlock, burst you to 50% and then execute before you can clear the Stun with Purge and even if you could, it hits you through Guard.

The PvP balance team currently consists of a monkey banging on a keyboard with a coconut.

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what did i just read

There shouldn't be any OHKOs on any job.

Player who died to Saw proc - "I just died to a super-rare insta kill. Reeeee! Nerf it now! Reeeeee!."

Ranged physical DPS - *cricket noises* (because they all just got gap-closed, stun-locked and stomped by a melee DPS)

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Originally Posted by Shahar

Yeah cuz random insta-kill mechanic should be the way to balance the mode. Keep it up proud of ya

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I think they were being facetious and implying that melee are so durable in frontlines that the instakill novelty is their only hope.

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Originally Posted by Ravenwatch

I think they were being facetious and implying that melee are so durable in frontlines that the instakill novelty is their only hope.

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Bingo.

/10char

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Originally Posted by Leathium

I play a mch mainly in pvp, and I can tell you it procs like once every say 10-15 match, just because it unluckily killed you, doesn't mean it's a game breaking OP skill and needs to be nerfed or even removed all together, to be honest I would like it to be buffed as well and maybe have a 10% chance the closer the enemy are.

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It depends honestly, I get a CS kill almost every single match.

I can't believe a month ago I got 3 CS kills in a row in FL.. I was actually screaming.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

I'm not saying it is. I'm saying that ranged physical generally and MCH specifically are now free kills because they have no innate defenses allowing melee to obliterate them with no fear of dying no matter how well played the rpDPS is. The melee DPS used to have to be careful because of the burst that MCH could bring to bear on demand. Now, even with burst combo you at best bring them to half health and they can then disembowel you with impunity knowing you can do nothing to stop them.

These kind of blanket nerfs/buffs with no comprehension of the impacts are absurd. I reiterate, the PvP balance team consists of a monkey banging on a keyboard with a coconut.

They wanted to increase TTK against melee, making them now unkillable to an entire group of jobs. Yet they left NIN untouched with their execute that works through Guard and gave them blanket melee DR so they have zero fear of diving into a group, obliterating the rpDPS then bailing out with their dash. I just played a match where I was literally getting chunked for 1/3 of my health by a NIN throwing a shuriken where if I'm lucky I can do that much to a melee DPS with a LB.

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I agree. I'm working on damage comparisons right now versus enemy HP percentage to better portray the numbers but it is incredibly awful in Frontlines. Ranged attacks are glorified LB chargers that tickle the enemy.

Bard power shot, their charged up shot that deals more damage at longer range crits for 4.2k damage which is 7%ish of someones HP on a crit.

The empyreal arrow which builds up 3 charges that expend all at once for 3 instant attacks was dealing 1.4kx3 for less than 5k damage total as well.

I understans sqenix probably wanted longer fights, but this is an incredible amount of breathing room for the defender. I can press recuperate once to invalidate all of that and more, and its not like I have to worry about rdps killing me as melee in a stun or silence when they may as well be using squirt guns for damage.

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Originally Posted by Ravenwatch

I agree. I'm working on damage comparisons right now versus enemy HP percentage to better portray the numbers but it is incredibly awful in Frontlines. Ranged attacks are glorified LB chargers that tickle the enemy.

Bard power shot, their charged up shot that deals more damage at longer range crits for 4.2k damage which is 7%ish of someones HP on a crit.

The empyreal arrow which builds up 3 charges that expend all at once for 3 instant attacks was dealing 1.4kx3 for less than 5k damage total as well.

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I just straight up stopped playing BRD in FL at all. When my big linear AoE cooldown hits the first target for maybe 10% of their health and a 3-stack Empyrean Arrow hits for 15% or so. Then I get to slow cast my basic shot while they pound on me. The 3 second snare + backstep is a joke, since they can just Purify and then gap-close me immediately. All BRD is is a glorified song-bot now that provides a barely relevant +10% damage boost combined with a giant "kick me" visual so all the melees know exactly who to dive.

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Originally Posted by Issaella

Player who died to Saw proc - "I just died to a super-rare insta kill. Reeeee! Nerf it now! Reeeeee!."

Ranged physical DPS - *cricket noises* (because they all just got gap-closed, stun-locked and stomped by a melee DPS)

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if by melee dps you mean Nin, Mnk and Sam yeah because drg can't stun

I mean in best case scenario I would say buff it to 10% chance if you are being chased by a melee or tank and they are close, because a mnk for example can just insta kill you with their stun lock combo and LB, what can you do about that? nothing, with the amount of health you have.

I agree that instant kill Chainsaw needs to go.

I don't really buy into the "it should stay because MCH need it to have a chance against melee". Coming as a melee player myself, I actually actively think there are times where our burst is a little too severe, and I do think that should be addressed, though not mutually exclusive with something where honestly in an environment where they standardized everything except AST cards, it's really strange and honestly stupid to have this element of RNG. So both yes to getting rid of Chainsaw insta-kill, but also yes to re-examining some of the interactions between MCH and melee.

my favorite jobs are ranged and i for one like chainsaw it works well with my mch so i would say to keep it honored programmers.

The instant kill is worst thing to use analysis on, majority of the time it's a wasted use and those rare few times it's a game changing move. Top MCHs only use it in overtime when they are losing and need to pray to RNG gods to make a game winning gamble.

It should be something generally useful and less swingy, like a short dot, healing reduction or maybe a buff to machinist. Anything else that isn't straight up bad design like the current one.

Would be better if it just did bonus damage and instantly depleted the targets mana pool instead.

Well if you want that to go, then remove the SAM LB where it instantly kill anyone has the debuff with 100% chance, remove the nin instant kill LB on anyone that is lower than 50% health with a 100% chance. and rework the mnk LB to deal half the potency it does currently, how about that? sounds fair right?

Up the chance or make it 20k with a 4k dot then I’ll shut up 3% is like a random oh cool moment not a dependable attack

When I get hit with it it’s like oh dam that happen can’t even be mad

Shocked how many people take FL seriously I just go in kill 20 people and leave not worth stressing over

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Originally Posted by Issaella

Counterpoint: Insta-kill should be increased to 10-15% against melee and tanks since that is the only way MCH has any chance to kill anything other than ranged now. Spite hits for only ~25-30% of the health of a melee or tank with the changes to DR. Reassemble + Drill/Saw/AA comboed with Spite now maybe does 50%. At which point the tank or melee turns around and then stunlocks and curb-stomps you into the ground.

Meanwhile a NIN can still stunlock, burst you to 50% and then execute before you can clear the Stun with Purge and even if you could, it hits you through Guard.

The PvP balance team currently consists of a monkey banging on a keyboard with a coconut.

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Wouldn't this better be a reason to convert some of Chainsaw's potency (literal and/or what's afforded by the rare, random instakill) towards making it immune to passive DR, or at least otherwise evening out its damage to melee and tanks?

It's a saw, after all. You can give it flavor excuse enough for such a mechanic.

It's just laughable on how rare that insta kill chain triggers like once every damn while if you play CC, not sure how often it even procs in Frontline massive gank fest, and then who ever got killed with that once rants it's too OP and it should be removed all together, when we have melees can wipe you on a spot and you can't do anything about it, hardly anything in your kit to even counter them, else probably praying to RNGesus to trigger a chain saw insta kill proc to get rid of that obnoxious annoying mnk who is focusing you the whole match, because their meteorite stunlock combo can 100% - 0% you.

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Originally Posted by Leathium

Well if you want that to go, then remove the SAM LB where it instantly kill anyone has the debuff with 100% chance, remove the nin instant kill LB on anyone that is lower than 50% health with a 100% chance. and rework the mnk LB to deal half the potency it does currently, how about that? sounds fair right?

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I consider the Nin LB to absolutely be a problem as well so I'll leave that out for now, there is however a big difference between getting oneshot by a SAM and getting oneshot by Chainsaw. SAM's LB requires you to make a mistake first by attacking the SAM during their counter, Chainsaw on the other hand simply kills you through no fault of your own and no means to counter it besides "just don't get hit lol".

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I consider the Nin LB to absolutely be a problem as well so I'll leave that out for now, there is however a big difference between getting oneshot by a SAM and getting oneshot by Chainsaw. SAM's LB requires you to make a mistake first by attacking the SAM during their counter, Chainsaw on the other hand simply kills you through no fault of your own and no means to counter it besides "just don't get hit lol".

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Well, you still have to waste an Analysis cooldown in hope it may proc, that's another thing to it, the 3% instant kill chance doesn't proc by only using the skill on a random target you must use an analysis for that to MAYBE proc.. while the sam for example is very common that when you are the last one in crystal someone WILL have to hit you and they get the debuff, easy 100% chance kill, can even happen literally every match if the sam is being sneaky, while the chainsaw kill? lol once every 10 to probably 20 match.. so?

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Originally Posted by Leathium

while the sam for example is very common that when you are the last one in crystal someone WILL have to hit you and they get the debuff, easy 100% chance kill, can even happen literally every match if the sam is being sneaky, while the chainsaw kill? lol once every 10 to probably 20 match.. so?

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No you don't. If you can't keep yourself from hitting the SAM for 5 seconds ,which is the duration of Chiten, then that's entirely on you.

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Originally Posted by Leathium

Well if you want that to go, then remove the SAM LB where it instantly kill anyone has the debuff with 100% chance, remove the nin instant kill LB on anyone that is lower than 50% health with a 100% chance. and rework the mnk LB to deal half the potency it does currently, how about that? sounds fair right?

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You forgot Mch LB ;p
Wildfire + LB combo is about 48k damage.
Mch need something else than chainsaw.

I wouldn't mind the 3% removal, if they removed every dash/teleport/charge from every melee dps so I can actually have a chance to kill one, cuz between the pathetic damage of entire MCH kit and the DR buffs, that 3% chance is the only way you can ever get a kill on a melee player.

I actually switched from MCH to DRG, and it's so stupid how big a difference it is to get kills, so easy with this class compared to MCH, pretty sure BRD and DNC are similarly screwed from what I'm hearing.

God I hope they remove the DR buffs next patch again so melee's at least have to think about when to charge in.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

No you don't. If you can't keep yourself from hitting the SAM for 5 seconds ,which is the duration of Chiten, then that's entirely on you.

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Makes no sense, because either you predict the sam will use their chiton and then you have to just not attack them for 5 sec just watching them melting your health and then WAIT the entire 5 sec which is semi game changer if for example the sam was the last target to eliminate and win the game, or you try to kill them before they use the LB to wipe you even if you have your guard up, it's a 100% health kill, trust me it's really not a "u problem" thing.

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Originally Posted by Rabbid

You forgot Mch LB ;p
Wildfire + LB combo is about 48k damage.
Mch need something else than chainsaw.

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Mnk combo: Rising Phoenix 3000 + phantom rush 15000 (10000 +50% bonus damage from the buff) = 18000 damage + Enlightenment 8000 damage = 26000 + Meteodrive (LB that fills VERY quickly) 12000 + 12000 (if no guard) + 12000 (from pressure point caused by Enlightenment after successful knockback) = 62000 total damage from pressing 4 buttons! That's almost the whole WAR Health which is 63000! (Without counting the damage of the dot and if you used the stun damage.. as well as other factors during the fight).

And you want to tell me landing a wildfire on a target and then do 2 charge shots which is not instant cast skill and then assuming the target did not heal up or like didn't use guard or ran away out of sight already because you got to move slowly while casting your charged shot the basic mch attack, and then say luckly you landed 2 charged shots, and then there is one more last shot which is your LB to trigger that 12000 damage from it.. if you combine all of that with your LB as mch (36000 damage) that takes almost twice to fill up as fast as a mnk LB can fill... LITERALLY lol, and then at the very end you deal 48000... WOW! So much balance! no no I'm totally convinced that a 3% rare chance proc instant kill needs to go! (NOT!) while a mnk can solo a tank 100% to 0% if they want to, at any time, because at this rate of their LB fill speed, it feels like a skill with a little longer CD.

I would much rather Analysis' effect on Chainsaw be something that can be used reliably, like a healing received debuff.

As things stand presently, the only reason you'd be using it is out of desperation.

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Originally Posted by Leathium

Makes no sense, because either you predict the sam will use their chiton and then you have to just not attack them for 5 sec just watching them melting your health and then WAIT the entire 5 sec which is semi game changer if for example the sam was the last target to eliminate and win the game, or you try to kill them before they use the LB to wipe you even if you have your guard up, it's a 100% health kill, trust me it's really not a "u problem" thing.

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If you get Odin'd by a SAM, it is *absolutely* a you problem. Kuzushi debuff only lasts 3 sec, and the SAM can't LB if bound, stunned, silenced, etc.

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Mnk combo: Rising Phoenix 3000 + phantom rush 15000 (10000 +50% bonus damage from the buff) = 18000 damage + Enlightenment 8000 damage = 26000 + Meteodrive (LB that fills VERY quickly) 12000 + 12000 (if no guard) + 12000 (from pressure point caused by Enlightenment after successful knockback) = 62000 total damage from pressing 4 buttons! That's almost the whole WAR Health which is 63000! (Without counting the damage of the dot and if you used the stun damage.. as well as other factors during the fight).

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Phantom Rush is the last GCD of a 7 GCD combo, and the timer only lasts 10 sec. If you let the MNK line up everything like that, you fucked up.

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And you want to tell me landing a wildfire on a target and then do 2 charge shots which is not instant cast skill and then assuming the target did not heal up or like didn't use guard or ran away out of sight already because you got to move slowly while casting your charged shot the basic mch attack, and then say luckly you landed 2 charged shots, and then there is one more last shot which is your LB to trigger that 12000 damage from it.. if you combine all of that with your LB as mch (36000 damage) that takes almost twice to fill up as fast as a mnk LB can fill... LITERALLY lol, and then at the very end you deal 48000... WOW! So much balance! no no I'm totally convinced that a 3% rare chance proc instant kill needs to go! (NOT!) while a mnk can solo a tank 100% to 0% if they want to, at any time, because at this rate of their LB fill speed, it feels like a skill with a little longer CD.

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MCH is fine. You have a lot of work to do improving how you play it, but it's fine. Also, I'd recommend not using FL as the basis for balance whines, because FL is not and never has been balanced.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I would much rather Analysis' effect on Chainsaw be something that can be used reliably, like a healing received debuff.

As things stand presently, the only reason you'd be using it is out of desperation.

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Healing down would be a very nice addition to the MCH kit, but there's already so many healing down effects in the game that we're going to get all of them nerfed if we keep adding them. People are still heavily fixated on me unga bunga "burst is best" mentality but if we ever get Team Ranked we're going to see, very quickly, the reason SCH and DRK kept getting nerfed (and eventually made so that their debuffs couldn't stack) in Feast. Healing Down is *oppressive* in an organized environment.