2 minute burst rotation meta has negatively impacted combat

Forcing all classes to "synergize" with this 2 minute burst rotation thing Square as pushed, has honestly made combat not as engaging as Shadowbringers was.

I don't know what else to say lol.

I'm not saying the game is bad. I still love FF14. It's just a shame to see the current meta.

After the SAM changes, whenever you see "Adjustments for X class(s)". It has instilled MASS worry within the community and Square really needs to acknowledge just how scared everyone is.

And I believe a huge issue is because of the forced burst meta. It'll only impact classes in the future.

My current main is RPR and they've stated it's "overtuned". Well, I can only assume in 7.0 - and with their current adjustment track record...RPR is in trouble. We saw it with GNB where it was fantastic in ShB but a chore to play in EW (third shell was a mistake)

Let's not forget that the devs had stated at one point before that they don't want to lock everything to a specific burst window meta as that would be, in their words, "boring". Kind of funny to start seeing changes go in the very directions they once said they didn't want to do because of a belief it would negatively impact the playerbase.

it's a catch 22

Having all jobs with the ability to synergize with each other is a good thing as this game has had a history of some jobs just being awful forever simply because their rotations didn't line up properly with the best job in the game (NIN)

So fixing that issue caused more homogenization. personally, i don't mind it too much however the only way for them to meaningfully fix this without bringing back jobs having needlessly poor rotation timing is to give more jobs burst windows on 90 sec windows to where a comp could realistically benefit from this or dissolve the concept of burst alignment and tune fights in such a way that jobs aren't incentivized to stack buffs. removing buffs would fix this since nobody would care if the MNK and WAR are on 90sec windows but then people would complain that those synergies no longer exist which further leans into the issue with homogenization.

tl;dr, i don't really think this is a problem and many jobs have burst on the same 60sec 2min window for years. RDM NIN and SAM all burst on a 2min window and they don't play anything alike

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

Let's not forget that the devs had stated at one point before that they don't want to lock everything to a specific burst window meta as that would be, in their words, "boring". Kind of funny to start seeing changes go in the very directions they once said they didn't want to do because of a belief it would negatively impact the playerbase.

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Eventually you're kinda forced down a path. They see a trend of certain jobs being excluded and the devs don't want that so they go out of their way to ensure everyone has a role. Its a double edged sword.

I really don't think it's a '' mass worry '', few people even partake in content where it's even relevant and even fewer actually take advantage of the two minute burst window.

That said I really miss having Jobs that were more utility based and I don't think that small minority that this is even relevant to should necessarily be driving Job design and balance.
To some extent yes, in the sense that a Jobs potential obviously needs to be taken into consideration when balancing.
But on a gameplay level I don't think it needs to revolve so much around it.

It's a bit of a two-way street tho, on the one hand the devs are indulging players in it and on the other hand the players are creating the situation ourselves with the obsession with meta.
The moment you have a 60s or 120s cd players are going to start figuring out how to min-max it and then revolve everything around it.
Maybe I am totally wrong about how modern WoW works, but in WoW things like Bloodlust and WAR cd's for example had like a 30 min cd I think.
Works better in a raid scenario that last longer with more bosses maybe but in FFXIV it wouldn't work.
But I think that maybe dps cd's could be longer and not so perfectly fit and line up with everything at least especially raid-wide buffs.

I actually think FFXIV is a bit too well-designed which might sound odd.
But it's well-designed to a point where things perhaps feel a bit rigid and less free.
I don't hate it or anything I still love the combat and I think the Jobs for the most part play very well.
There are issues and yes ffs don't get ultra madge the removal of Kaiten was bad and I dislike it being removed too but SAM still plays very nice even if it did become worse with the removal of Kaiten.
The overdramatization of everything gets a bit ridiculous at times.

I do think the removal of Kaiten however sorta gets into the problem of rotations feeling rigid, with Kaiten you at least had something to keep track of that wasn't just your cd's.
When that was removed it just became the Shinten spam button.
I think we need more Kaiten and less Shinten spam or cd tracking.
More dynamic things to do and keep track of, they don't need to be super difficult or anything it's not like it was hard to keep track of your Kenki but the thing is that it was something that wasn't just spamming a button on cd or revolved around a damage cd.
I don't think that the latter is the only thing you should be thinking about all the time.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

it's a catch 22

Having all jobs with the ability to synergize with each other is a good thing as this game has had a history of some jobs just being awful forever simply because their rotations didn't line up properly with the best job in the game (NIN)

So fixing that issue caused more homogenization. personally, i don't mind it too much however the only way for them to meaningfully fix this without bringing back jobs having needlessly poor rotation timing is to give more jobs burst windows on 90 sec windows to where a comp could realistically benefit from this or dissolve the concept of burst alignment and tune fights in such a way that jobs aren't incentivized to stack buffs. removing buffs would fix this since nobody would care if the MNK and WAR are on 90sec windows but then people would complain that those synergies no longer exist which further leans into the issue with homogenization.

tl;dr, i don't really think this is a problem and many jobs have burst on the same 60sec 2min window for years. RDM NIN and SAM all burst on a 2min window and they don't play anything alike

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Yeah it's a bit strange to reference SHB because SHB had this going too.
It's not anything new at all it has just escalated, but it's definitely not new.

SAM for example was still revolved around lining up Tsubame-gaeshi every 60s, and you only had one stack of it too so it was even more important.
Same with MNK and NIN you still had you dmg cd's your rotation revolved around.

Edit: Oh stuff like Tornado Kick rotation for MNK tho, I miss that.
MNK has had a history of some cursed but fun stuff lol.
Still tho so long as damage cd's exist and they're on a relatively low cd things will continue revolving around them.

I don't hate the synergy with 2 minutes but i do hate how charge actions have become "save for 2 minutes" leading to a lot of jobs feeling similar in this regard,
every damaging gap closer,shadow bringer,gauss/richochet etc,
its fine for some jobs like MCH but i don't think gap closers should have potency.

If you ask me, it would've been much better if they split jobs between 60s and 90s burst windows rather than doubling down on the 60s/120s one.

I know the dev team hates raid synergy differences (and I do too) but I'm definitely at the point where I'd prefer a bit more variation than balance. We have enough jobs that we could have at least 2 distinct meta comps if jobs were split evenly between 60s and 90s, so it's potentially not nearly as much of an issue as it used to be. It was hardly an issue in ShB.

I guess it makes fights easier to design, but the dev team hardly takes advantage of the freedom current job design offers them to begin with so it just feels like a waste. And even with current design, some jobs are still significantly worse in some fights than others so it ends up feeling doubly pointless.

Would prefer that jobs be unique instead of relying on burst windows. Then again the most fun job this expansion has been Dragon Kick Monk outside of Fisher.

When you get down to it even Blue Mage has this problem by fitting everything into a Moon Flute with all the Primal skills. Some of which you guessed it have a 2 min CD.

Too much overreliance on building raid encounters around 2 minute burst tends to pigeonhole most if not all jobs into that sort of playstyle.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Then again the most fun job this expansion has been Dragon Kick Monk

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https://64.media.tumblr.com/8851fec9...ef3ff749a.gifv


.... Fisher DPS Job when tho?

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

it's a catch 22
the best job in the game (NIN)

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Hmm didn't know that

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Would prefer that jobs be unique instead of relying on burst windows.

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In any team oriented game this happens naturaly, and if that doesnt work, its going to end up on straight max dps. It doesnt matter if its a lootshooter, moba or RTS.

Burst is generaly the most efficient system to deal damage as it negates healing potential. And also reduces chances on interupts. Even in an RTS this matters (where healing is effectively just building new units/saving resources).

The problem in ffxiv is simply that bosses are predictable. You know that after a certain mechanic there will be a few seconds of no action, which is a perfect window. There is rarely any situation in which mechanics can follow up (or its very static), and usualy those mechanics happen because its multiple smaller enemies overlapping their abilities (most of the time outside of boss fights).

A lot more things need to be randomized to counter this, but randomizing will be a problem in the highest difficulty fights (instead of skill it becomes RNG whether you can survive). This just doesnt sound right balance wise. A more difficult mechanic in an easier dungeon is often just bad. Still, static randomization can work (as in: you know that each time a mechanic happens, one out of 4 events can happen which all rely on diffirent timing), but again, its just learning patterns to know burst windows. Its not realy a major improvement here.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

Let's not forget that the devs had stated at one point before that they don't want to lock everything to a specific burst window meta as that would be, in their words, "boring". Kind of funny to start seeing changes go in the very directions they once said they didn't want to do because of a belief it would negatively impact the playerbase.

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well ^^ Yoshida also once said that Paladin will never be able to block Magic ^^

as a Samurai Player, we got Ogi Namikiri as a 2 Minute Burst (and we will get a Single Target Ogi in 7.0 predictably) which imo okay.. what's not Okay is that they turned Ninja's Trick Attack into old Disembowel!

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

as a Samurai Player, we got Ogi Namikiri as a 2 Minute Burst (and we will get a Single Target Ogi in 7.0 predictably) which imo okay.. what's not Okay is that they turned Ninja's Trick Attack into old Disembowel!

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I really hope SAM doesn't end up getting another redundant skill. What next would they remove to keep it due to "bloat"? I'd rather they bring back Seigan as a reward for proper mitigation again, and make Meditation stacks as a whole more interactive.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Fisher DPS Job when tho?

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Probably never. I do love those Fisher expeditions tho.

I just think it's so hilarious how busted Dragon Kick is that you can do slightly less DPS then a meta rotation and still perform amazing. It's made me shelf every DPS because of it. I'm surprised it hasn't been nerfed.

The state of melee DPS is pretty baffling to me. DRG is a wet noodle, SAM got Kaiten taken from them which was half the job, Ninjas is dependent on being level capped for Lightning abilities accounting for their previous high APM and Reaper is a very braindead slow builder spender job that ultimately is middle of the road. And is only really engaging with Reaver stacks and Enshroud, outside of that it's boring to me.

And the thing that makes Monks amazing is that Dragon Kick can carry you from lvl50 to lvl 90. Which is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

I really hope SAM doesn't end up getting another redundant skill. What next would they remove to keep it due to "bloat"? I'd rather they bring back Seigan as a reward for proper mitigation again, and make Meditation stacks as a whole more interactive.

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I would've liked seigan to do more than a tickle for proper counter play on dps, but being able to do something for anticipating damage was nice still. Could've made it add shoha stacks at 90 or something if they kept it in as well, reward your play even more. But, can't have things that are too complex I guess.

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Originally Posted by Ruminous

I would've liked seigan to do more than a tickle for proper counter play on dps, but being able to do something for anticipating damage was nice still. Could've made it add shoha stacks at 90 or something if they kept it in as well, reward your play even more. But, can't have things that are too complex I guess.

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Exactly! Ever since seigan was removed, I almost forget to even use Third Eye because who notices 10 kenki gain while you're still pressing buttons that make that bar go up? Did shinten light up? Oh. Better press it! Did it not? Well that's weird, I thought I did my mit.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

Exactly! Ever since seigan was removed, I almost forget to even use Third Eye because who notices 10 kenki gain while you're still pressing buttons that make that bar go up? Did shinten light up? Oh. Better press it! Did it not? Well that's weird, I thought I did my mit.

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The damage reduction has saved me so many times that I just hit third eye out of habit. Well I used to, you know, when I actually played the job. I stay off of it now for the admittedly silly reason of not wanting to add more representation to it now, but anything to show my displeasure with it, right?

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Originally Posted by Ruminous

The damage reduction has saved me so many times that I just hit third eye out of habit. Well I used to, you know, when I actually played the job. I stay off of it now for the admittedly silly reason of not wanting to add more representation to it now, but anything to show my displeasure with it, right?

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Same. I've only used it on the off chance that I don't feel like rolling tank in something like aglaia.

I used to be really good about using Third Eye for raidwides once I saw it the first time, but the removal of kaiten has felt so alien to me that I'm more focused on my bars just to ensure I'm pressing the right thing at the right time... that, and the fact that my sk.spd is abysmally low, making the gcd 2.49 when I'm used to 2.28-2.36 for a gcd. I end up missing my combos by accident so much I need to watch it all instead of the fight.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

Exactly! Ever since seigan was removed, I almost forget to even use Third Eye because who notices 10 kenki gain while you're still pressing buttons that make that bar go up? Did shinten light up? Oh. Better press it! Did it not? Well that's weird, I thought I did my mit.

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You should be using it whenever possible during raid wide aoe's...not for the free kenki but for the damage reduction. Mitigation is mitigation and 10% can be the difference between continuing to dps at max stat or getting rez sickness.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

https://64.media.tumblr.com/8851fec9...ef3ff749a.gifv


.... Fisher DPS Job when tho?

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That Fisher Price job would be 6.0 Summoner! Or it would if it could be constructive and engaging like those children's toys.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

You should be using it whenever possible during raid wide aoe's...not for the free kenki but for the damage reduction. Mitigation is mitigation and 10% can be the difference between continuing to dps at max stat or getting rez sickness.

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Yeah, I know that. It's something that I tend to forget since I'm no longer looking at the boss, but my own bar instead. Maybe if I didn't need to actively tell myself not to press a dead button, I wouldn't have that problem. But my solution so far has been to play a different job

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Originally Posted by Ransu

You should be using it whenever possible during raid wide aoe's...not for the free kenki but for the damage reduction. Mitigation is mitigation and 10% can be the difference between continuing to dps at max stat or getting rez sickness.

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Let's be honest: damage in casual content is really low and the majority of damage is taken care of through aoe heals while melees aren't exactly squishy by nature and also have 2 selfheals as role skills. There are situations when 10% makes the difference between life and death but in most situations you just take slightly less damage and are full HP from getting the same heal as everyone else slightly faster which... doesn't really matter when the next raidwide is another 30s away. Skills like Addle and Feint at least reduce the damage for everyone and are more likely to make a difference while having to heal 1 of 8 people for slightly less when having to heal everyone anyway definitely has far less impact.
I'm not argueing against using mitigation at all, don't get me wrong, it's a good habit to develop and casual content is good for practicing. More people need to realize that mitigation exists on every class.
But I understand that with the lack of incentive many SAMs don't bother anymore unless it looks like healers are struggling or outgoing damage is generally high, then Third Eye, Bloodbath and Second Wind help a great deal. I just miss the impact it had and how well it fit the class fantasy. Anticipating an enemy attack and using it to your advantage for a counter is just perfect Samurai fantasy for me with their focus on efficient, precise strikes instead of backflipping 3 times before doing a double swing and another two backflips.
Same with kaiten removal. Concentrating on and charging up a single powerful and precise strike. That's Samurai.
But can't have complexity and rewards for good gameplay, right?

I would _love_ some more interaction with mitigation abilities all together. "Reaction" abilities like group-wide mitigation adds a lot to break up the monotony of static rotations and makes you feel good whenever you use it "correctly."

It would be nice to reward "smart" use of those abilities (and others) more. It's fairly obvious that some abilities like Bloodbath, Second Wind, etc aren't even on DPS players' hotbars and Phys Ranged definitely don't use their group mitigation abilities.

Similar to Third Eye/TBN it'd be nice to "get" something if your mitigation ability mitigates a certain amount of damage.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

Yeah, I know that. It's something that I tend to forget since I'm no longer looking at the boss, but my own bar instead. Maybe if I didn't need to actively tell myself not to press a dead button, I wouldn't have that problem. But my solution so far has been to play a different job

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Put shinten in the spot you had kaiten in. Its what I did so I basically have shinten on my bar twice.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Put shinten in the spot you had kaiten in. Its what I did so I basically have shinten on my bar twice.

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Ew, gross. I'd rather not, lol. That spot will remain reserved for the reversion. I will not get off that hill, lol.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

Ew, gross. I'd rather not, lol. That spot will remain reserved for the reversion. I will not get off that hill, lol.

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It was the only way I could get over my muscle memory. Eventually I took it out of the kaiten spot, but initially it was the best way for me to slowly move away from that muscle memory on my rotation.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

It was the only way I could get over my muscle memory. Eventually I took it out of the kaiten spot, but initially it was the best way for me to slowly move away from that muscle memory on my rotation.

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Still playing it, that's some dedication. I did the first week of DSR and P4S as a samurai and dropped it like a bad habit soon after. Going from 27 to 59 shinten uses...Ugh.

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Originally Posted by Ruminous

Still playing it, that's some dedication. I did the first week of DSR and P4S as a samurai and dropped it like a bad habit soon after. Going from 27 to 59 shinten uses...Ugh.

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I just didn't feel like gearing another job. I guess I could have played mnk, but I don't really like how they play either ATM. I'm waiting for the next tier to swap depending on what my static wants to do. Some want to move to different roles so I'm leveling getting my BLM and WAR up to level 90. I might level gunbreaker too just to see how it feels at 90, but I've never played GNB while I have played WAR in the past. PLD aesthetic is great.....but its really boring to play.

The changes just comes off as "we don't trust the playerbase to git gud so we'll just nerf everything" There's a fine balance between making every job viable and not making them cookie cutters. Imo 4.0 was the first and last expansion to achieve both. Sure some jobs had downsides but for the most part that was just due to questionable job design. Like why did MNK have a move which removed your GL stacks and slowed your gcd for miniscule dmg? Regardless I think we will further see vitriol in the future in addition to more homogenization if they lock all jobs to the 1-2 min bursts.

What you will see is ppl who don't know how to maximize burst windows fall behind and be excluded. They've ironically added more pressure to perform because now you HAVE to do your burst correctly since everyone else is doing the same thing at the same time. At least before you could get away with the notion that my job doesn't fit into every burst window but now there is no excuse. Couple with the fact that parsing is becoming more prevalent, this design choice is going to bite them in the rear sooner rather than later. The return of "skip soar" is drawing near and the devs have no one to blame but themselves for turning every job into a dps.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

The changes just comes off as "we don't trust the playerbase to git gud so we'll just nerf everything" There's a fine balance between making every job viable and not making them cookie cutters. Imo 4.0 was the first and last expansion to achieve both. Sure some jobs had downsides but for the most part that was just due to questionable job design. Like why did MNK have a move which removed your GL stacks and slowed your gcd for miniscule dmg? Regardless I think we will further see vitriol in the future in addition to more homogenization if they lock all jobs to the 1-2 min bursts.

What you will see is ppl who don't know how to maximize burst windows fall behind and be excluded. They've ironically added more pressure to perform because now you HAVE to do your burst correctly since everyone else is doing the same thing at the same time. At least before you could get away with the notion that my job doesn't fit into every burst window but now there is no excuse. Couple with the fact that parsing is becoming more prevalent, this design choice is going to bite them in the rear sooner rather than later. The return of "skip soar" is drawing near and the devs have no one to blame but themselves for turning every job into a dps.

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Hey, like you said, if the devs don't trust people to git gud and just nerf everything, it does make the burst easier to do. I'd rather they stop dumbing down jobs mind you. People can and will still find ways to fail at them, and that's what amuses and scares me more.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

RDM NIN and SAM all burst on a 2min window and they don't play anything alike

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the issue with SAM in burst rotation is that it suffers reaaaaaaaaaally disgusting skill drift and it didn't exist in shb. I felt SAM had one of the most smooth rotations but now its really yucky.

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Originally Posted by Avenheit

the issue with SAM in burst rotation is that it suffers reaaaaaaaaaally disgusting skill drift and it didn't exist in shb. I felt SAM had one of the most smooth rotations but now its really yucky.

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Agreed. The second charge on Tsubame-Gaeshi really makes it feel off. I don't think that needed to have 2 charges and it likely could've been baked into the iaijutsu itself if they wanted to double the amount of times we use it, similarly to how they did it for ogi namikiri, but even that is probably an odd direction unless they find a way to smooth out the kit.

But I'm not super heavily into the kind of content where lining up bursts is necessary, so I'll leave my comments there.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

Agreed. The second charge on Tsubame-Gaeshi really makes it feel off. I don't think that needed to have 2 charges and it likely could've been baked into the iaijutsu itself if they wanted to double the amount of times we use it, similarly to how they did it for ogi namikiri, but even that is probably an odd direction unless they find a way to smooth out the kit.

But I'm not super heavily into the kind of content where lining up bursts is necessary, so I'll leave my comments there.

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Given the focus on the 2 min window, the two stacks on Tsubame and Mekiyo is actually good since should something goes south in your rotation or during the fight, then its recoverable.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

I really hope SAM doesn't end up getting another redundant skill. What next would they remove to keep it due to "bloat"? I'd rather they bring back Seigan as a reward for proper mitigation again, and make Meditation stacks as a whole more interactive.

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We're going to get a Kaiten clone at level 96 and single target Ogi at level 100 while Higanbana gets pruned because DoTs bad. Also Ogi Namikiri is a circle AOE now somehow. Please look forward to it.

i have leveled all the jobs and find they all have good points and bad ones so pick the ones you like and stay with them.

That is exactly what happens if you play the numbers game exclusively. Fun becomes an afterthought. Homogenisation because mah numbers.

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Originally Posted by Ruminous

Hey, like you said, if the devs don't trust people to git gud and just nerf everything, it does make the burst easier to do. I'd rather they stop dumbing down jobs mind you. People can and will still find ways to fail at them, and that's what amuses and scares me more.

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as if having everything align to 2minute burst would stop people making mistakes and keep them from dying. If anything, missing the 2min burst window and rotation for whatever reason, you're basically lost for the remainder of the encounter as nothing will sync up anymore unless you save your entire rotation and skills by not using them...

battle dynamics have been gone sadly and it's charge system on the wrong abilities have been nothing but a detriment to this battle system ever since

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Originally Posted by Shikiseki

as if having everything align to 2minute burst would stop people making mistakes and keep them from dying. If anything, missing the 2min burst window and rotation for whatever reason, you're basically lost for the remainder of the encounter as nothing will sync up anymore unless you save your entire rotation and skills by not using them...

battle dynamics have been gone sadly and it's charge system on the wrong abilities have been nothing but a detriment to this battle system ever since

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"Wrong" abilities? I think they've done a fairly "ok" job at giving abilities charges; Not "great" just "ok" but I'm interested in knowing which abilities have actually been a detriment.


Is the goal here to remove group-wide temporary buffs? I feel like any time you have those, there's going to be a "best" way of using them which means "right away" or "hold until X." Or, I was a pretty serious raider in Everquest 2 and they had certain buffs that didn't matter too much when you used them. Namely, a buff that did a flat amount of damage every time you hit something. Is that the answer? The burst windows are how they are because of the exponential increase of the buffs that are being used. If it were, instead, a flat potency per hit that would cause SkS/SpS to be more powerful than it is. That's the only way I can see "fixing" the burst window stuff.

I definitely agree though, the burst window game play is kinda "eh" and it causes so many issues (but, giving charges to gap closers has helped that....very very little...) It's interesting to a certain point because you're rewarded for not drifting, but I feel like you're punished a little too much for drifting everything, AND you punish other people a little too much.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

"Wrong" abilities? I think they've done a fairly "ok" job at giving abilities charges; Not "great" just "ok" but I'm interested in knowing which abilities have actually been a detriment.
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it's mostly those attack abilities that you'd otherwise have to use on cooldown in your rotation to not waste their usage.
That save up everything to unleash every 2minute gameplay style is ok on a select few jobs but at this point, every job feels like that - charges just amplify that. It starts at even something as plainly as the AST draw ability. I get that it was to make it more lenient in case you forget to draw but now it's draw 3 times in a batch with nothing but malefics in between.
Charges to Celestial Intersection as a counter example is useful enough to keep one usage just in case of a double buster.

And I could name an example for almost every other job at this point.