Petition for leves

So as you all know we can do leves, but if you are like me and do all the 99 leves in one go you tend to get annoyed of clicking clicking and clicking, which also isnt good for your hand. So I thought of an idea where people have the choice to turn in all their items in one go. Any chance SE would implement this?

Well, personally, I have been advising everyone to stop doing stupid amount of Tradecraft Leves, as it's an infamous bank-breaker and a trap that most novice crafters fell for.
Why would you even consider doing more than 30 leves in a row when you can earn similar amounts of EXP from collectables, which could have provide you with free scrips for materia for endgame?
Turn-ins of Firmament collectables at Ishgard also give a lot more EXP than leves, and you can earn Skybuilders' Scrips along the way, which allows you to buy dyes and mounts for sales, which gives you back a lot of gil.

To me, making 99 Tradecraft Leves more easily done is just equal to making a bankruptcy trap more accessible to new crafters...

This also promotes people who sell leves packages, and promotes ignorant players to buy these packages to level up without even understanding how to craft things. At least for collectables, you gotta do the crafting yourself... even lazy crafters who copy macros for leveling still have to perform the macros themselves. But for leves, they don't even have to do the crafting by themselves.

I just don't think it's a healthy idea...

Ive been making commanding tea and turning them in HQ which gives me 10k per turn in immediately while my auction stuff are being sold in the meantime. Its not that im using for exp its purely to sell something in the meantime but the problem is just that I have to keep clicking and turning in for 99 times.

Not everyone is doing leves purely for experience. Some are doing for completion, achievements, etc. Those players would probably appreciate a quicker turn-in method. I don't see it happening though.

They could easily use the same system as they added for Collectibles. Maybe they even plan to and haven't got round to it yet.

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Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

This also promotes people who sell leves packages, and promotes ignorant players to buy these packages to level up without even understanding how to craft things. At least for collectables, you gotta do the crafting yourself... even lazy crafters who copy macros for leveling still have to perform the macros themselves. But for leves, they don't even have to do the crafting by themselves.

I just don't think it's a healthy idea...

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That sounds more like a problem with leves. If something has to be tedious because it's healthier to discourage people from using it, there's probably a large flaw with the design of that feature. Do you feel leves need a rework overall?

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Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

Well, personally, I have been advising everyone to stop doing stupid amount of Tradecraft Leves, as it's an infamous bank-breaker and a trap that most novice crafters fell for.
Why would you even consider doing more than 30 leves in a row when you can earn similar amounts of EXP from collectables, which could have provide you with free scrips for materia for endgame?
Turn-ins of Firmament collectables at Ishgard also give a lot more EXP than leves, and you can earn Skybuilders' Scrips along the way, which allows you to buy dyes and mounts for sales, which gives you back a lot of gil.

To me, making 99 Tradecraft Leves more easily done is just equal to making a bankruptcy trap more accessible to new crafters...

This also promotes people who sell leves packages, and promotes ignorant players to buy these packages to level up without even understanding how to craft things. At least for collectables, you gotta do the crafting yourself... even lazy crafters who copy macros for leveling still have to perform the macros themselves. But for leves, they don't even have to do the crafting by themselves.

I just don't think it's a healthy idea...

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Leves are a much better way to level than collectables and Restoration unless someone is struggling with inventory.

Unless you're buying a levekit, you generally will turn a profit on leves because desynthesis changes have kill marketboard prices on most leveling materials. You don't even come close to earning a similar amount of EXP from collectables or Restoration.

Let's look at samples for level 64 BSM for each with cost to make using prices from the Coeurl Marketboard (obviously can vary world to world).

Leve - Doman Iron Culinary Knife. Cost to make: just under 2400 gil. Difficulty: Durability 80, Progress 830, Quality 3150.
Reward for HQ: 981k EXP plus 5990 gil. (don't forget that the listed reward on a leve is for NQ - the HQ reward is double)

Collectable - Rarefied High Steel Claw Hammer. Cost to make: 4800 gil. Difficulty: Durability 80, Progress 780, Quality 3060
Reward for max tier rating: 471k EXP plus 54 White Crafter's Scrip

Restoration - Grade 4 Skybuilders' Hatchet. Cost to make: 7500 gil. Difficulty: Durability 60, Progress 580, Quality 6480 (note that's insanely high compared to the other two for an inexperienced crafter).
Reward for max tier rating: Skybuilder Scrip is 15 but I couldn't find an actual number for EXP that's current as of 6.1. The closest I could get was finding a guide updated for 6.1 that says it requires 40 Restoration crafts at max tier rating to level from 63 to 71. Compare that to using the level 64 leve, which would only require 18 HQ crafts of a much lower difficulty to level the same range if EXP wasn't slashed at 70 (though there are always level 70 leves with full XP value to start using at that point).

Leves remain a fantastic way to level in addition to class quests along with Crystalline Mean and Studium. They're gil neutral at worst and likely to turn a profit unless you're trying to hit the last 10 levels to cap at the start of an expansion when material prices are crazy. That's a huge bonus for a new player who's struggling with gil but doesn't have gathering leveled. While scrip is useful, it's still going to take twice as many crafts to get the same XP and that means double the gil cost to level. It's also going to be of less interest to a crafter without any real interest in end game crafting.

Levekits are not. I doubt it's a trap that many new players fall into because levekits can be too expensive compared to the gil they have available. Those using them are usually players who have already made their gil through other means and don't really care about crafting as opposed to wanting to be able to self-repair/meld. They're happy to pay for the convenience and know what they're doing.

Increasing the rate of speed that leves can be turned in is highly unlikely to change what players are using levekits.

As for players not understanding how to craft, those who are lazy are still going to turn to others to do most of the work whether it is preparing the levekit or designing the macro. Someone who's pressing a button to execute a macro created by someone else still isn't learning to craft.

I don't think you need to worry about whether it's a good idea, though. I can't see SE making the change. If they wanted to make things easier for players, I doubt they would have changed all the leves that allowed for 3 turn-ins on the same leve allowance.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Let's look at samples for level 64 BSM for each with cost to make using prices from the Coeurl Marketboard (obviously can vary world to world).

Leve - Doman Iron Culinary Knife. Cost to make: just under 2400 gil. Difficulty: Durability 80, Progress 830, Quality 3150.
Reward for HQ: 981k EXP plus 5990 gil. (don't forget that the listed reward on a leve is for NQ - the HQ reward is double)

Collectable - Rarefied High Steel Claw Hammer. Cost to make: 4800 gil. Difficulty: Durability 80, Progress 780, Quality 3060
Reward for max tier rating: 471k EXP plus 54 White Crafter's Scrip

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I haven't looked at the price of individual mats closely. Technically, the cost of a culinary knife can be ZERO if nothing is purchased from the MB. However, my gut feeling is that many novice crafters may buy crafted intermediate mats, and possibly even HQ ones from the MB, in order to make HQ products. So in the end, the cost of a culinary knife might be a lot more than just 2400 gil. E.g. during peak time of leveling (at the beginning of an expansion), an HQ lumber (from CRP) for making a knife (made by BSM) could easily be 10K gil or more. This price is excluding other mats, such as ores for ingots. In the end, the cost of 1 knife could be ~15-20K. The knife itself could have probably been sold for ~35K on the MB. But if submitted for leves, you get back only around 6K gil. Such continuous deficit of gil is nothing to someone like me with a deep purse, but is unsustainable for a novice crafter.

For collectables, usually at the beginning of an expansion, the prices are high (EDIT: I meant prices of materia). So selling them (materia) could be very profitable... or the materia can be kept for overmelds at endgame after lv 90.

For Firmament, the dyes bought with Skybuilders' Scrips are actually still as pricey as they were a year ago. So very profitable.

Of course, current it is no longer the beginning of the Endwalker expansion, so my price estimates are way-off. An HQ lumber might cost ~2K instead of ~10K, and the prices for products (e.g. a culinary knife) are probably as low as 10K to 15K instead of 35K. But I think you get what I mean -- they buy mat/products, they dump into leves, and then deficit of gil instead of surplus. In the end, they have no gil and no materia for overmelds.

I think the Coffee Cookie incidence was a special case that made leves very profitable. But now that it's gone, I believe leves is still overall a gil-draining action. I do not doubt its power in speed-leveling though. It is definitely FASTTTT!!!~

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

They could easily use the same system as they added for Collectibles. Maybe they even plan to and haven't got round to it yet.



That sounds more like a problem with leves. If something has to be tedious because it's healthier to discourage people from using it, there's probably a large flaw with the design of that feature. Do you feel leves need a rework overall?

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I have no idea how it can be reworked. I think it still has its place in the game, as a mean to turn gil into speed-leveling. I just don't recommend it to new crafters as the ONLY mean of leveling, since they definitely won't have enough gil for leves for 90 levels across all 8 classes using leves alone.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Not everyone is doing leves purely for experience. Some are doing for completion, achievements, etc. Those players would probably appreciate a quicker turn-in method. I don't see it happening though.

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I guess if a veteran crafter is doing it for achievements, it's fine. But it just creates a dangerous trap for the new people, since they wouldn't know how gil-draining it can be for someone with a bank as small as 50-100K.

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Originally Posted by J1992

Ive been making commanding tea and turning them in HQ which gives me 10k per turn in immediately while my auction stuff are being sold in the meantime. Its not that im using for exp its purely to sell something in the meantime but the problem is just that I have to keep clicking and turning in for 99 times.

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I understand. To people who "know what they're doing", it can be a QoL improvement.

Also some people like me only have 2 crafting jobs and 2 gathering and we are kinda lazy when it comes to scouring through the entire MB to see which is profitable so we just try to use the no thinking method which is leves gil farming. With the commanding tea, to get the mats it takes 30-40 min and then an hour to make it HQ tea. so for me getting 1 mil gil in 2 hours without thinking is a blast. But the turn could be done as what Liam_Harper said, collectables like system.

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Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

For collectables, usually at the beginning of an expansion, the prices are high. So selling them could be very profitable... or the materia can be kept for overmelds at endgame after lv 90.

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Certainly - at the beginning of the expansion when the end game materia supply is starting from zero and the first couple of weeks of the X.1 and X.3 patches when new crafting/gathering gear is added. It's also assuming the player has access to the end game materia (very easy to hit level 90 without having MSQ progression in Endwalker).

What about the other 18 months of an expansion?

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Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

For Firmament, the dyes bought with Skybuilders' Scrips are actually still as pricey as they were a year ago. So very profitable.

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Yet for someone leveling, the amount of scrip earned is very low compared to the price of the dyes until you reach level 80. Even then you're looking at 2-8 crafts per dye.

Before saying someone should be using X not Y method, we need to take into consideration their situation:

Are they crafting to level or for profit? (the fewer crafts needed while leveling, the faster the player can take advantage of more profitable content)
Do they intend to get heavily into Master/Expert recipe crafting? (scrip becomes more important)
Are they gathering all their materials (when possible) or buying from the MB? (it's all profit when you gather everything yourself)
At what point in the expansion cycle are they doing these things? (prices change as the market supply increases)

Different answers to those questions are going to yield different best methods.

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Originally Posted by J1992

Also some people like me only have 2 crafting jobs and 2 gathering and we are kinda lazy when it comes to scouring through the entire MB to see which is profitable so we just try to use the no thinking method which is leves gil farming. With the commanding tea, to get the mats it takes 30-40 min and then an hour to make it HQ tea. so for me getting 1 mil gil in 2 hours without thinking is a blast. But the turn could be done as what Liam_Harper said, collectables like system.

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Definitely it would be nice if SE could make leve turn-ins similar to collectables. I don't know if they can do it considering the way leves are acquired and the system also handles the battle leves, which cannot be turned in the same way.

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Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

For collectables, usually at the beginning of an expansion, the prices are high. So selling them could be very profitable... or the materia can be kept for overmelds at endgame after lv 90.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Certainly - at the beginning of the expansion when the end game materia supply is starting from zero and the first couple of weeks of the X.1 and X.3 patches when new crafting/gathering gear is added. It's also assuming the player has access to the end game materia (very easy to hit level 90 without having MSQ progression in Endwalker).

What about the other 18 months of an expansion?

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Oh dear, what did I type there! I meant the prices OF MATERIA are high, so selling MATERIA could be very profitable. Anyway, yes, for the other 18 months, there are only certain times that the materia prices would be high. But it doesn't change the fact: Earning materia with the white scrips you earn while leveling is a nice idea... It's better than having a bank account of <100,000 gil, with no materia at level 90. Trust me, almost anyone who first reached lv 90 on any crafting job will try to get endgame gear, and will do overmelds. They just can't resist it. So where can they get that materia from? They either buy them, or slowly acquire them via different means. And trust me, most of them will just buy them with whatever gil they have remained. Leves drains all their gil, and most of them will just complain about being poor and no gil for overmelds at that point.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Yet for someone leveling, the amount of scrip earned is very low compared to the price of the dyes until you reach level 80. Even then you're looking at 2-8 crafts per dye.

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Now that I think about it, I think it comes down to whether they are gathering the mats here themselves or buying from the MB. I guess if they are splurging much on the MB, chances are that even selling dyes won't cover their expenses.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Before saying someone should be using X not Y method, we need to take into consideration their situation:

Are they crafting to level or for profit?

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I don't think this is the right question... The two are not mutually exclusive. You can level while earning gil, or you can level while losing gil. And I merely suggest level while earning gil. To do so, I suggest to avoid doing leves from start to finish.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

(the fewer crafts needed while leveling, the faster the player can take advantage of more profitable content)

Do they intend to get heavily into Master/Expert recipe crafting? (scrip becomes more important)
Are they gathering all their materials (when possible) or buying from the MB? (it's all profit when you gather everything yourself)
At what point in the expansion cycle are they doing these things? (prices change as the market supply increases)

Different answers to those questions are going to yield different best methods.

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I understand your logic, but this is also mostly valid at the beginning of an expansion too... Look at all those lv 90 classical gear now selling 25K a piece. The sight of it is just horrible. Many Lv 61 to lv 89 items are selling at much higher prices. So I guess in theory, you can say "the big bucks" are up there (especially every patch day when new recipes are out), but for the remaining time, rushing to lv 90 doesn't give that advantage of more profitable content... My point is, if someone is thinking of spending a lot of gil to level via leves, just to reach lv 90 sooner "for the big bucks", they may get very disappointed, as they CANNOT craft those contents without White Scrips for Master Recipes, and even if they have the Master Recipes, they don't have materia for overmelds, and even if they have overmelds, they make very little gil.

So yes, if they gather everything themselves, then everything cost nothing, but you're also assuming they're leveling ALL classes. Otherwise, there are many leves items they cannot make, since most items require certain mats from other classes. I think we can safely assume that, if someone wants to quickly level via leves, they are probably NOT leveling all classes together slowly, and they WILL buy mats. And so, massively doing leves is a gil-draining way of leveling instead of gil-earning. This is actually somewhat independent of what point in the expansion cycle they do these.

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Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

I don't think this is the right question... The two are not mutually exclusive. You can level while earning gil, or you can level while losing gil. And I merely suggest level while earning gil. To do so, I suggest to avoid doing leves from start to finish.

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I understand your point of view here but it's still actually a valid question. A lot of players are truly doing it only to level. They want to be able to repair/meld their own gear, not craft for profit. You actually could have 3 answers to that question.

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Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

So yes, if they gather everything themselves, then everything cost nothing, but you're also assuming they're leveling ALL classes. Otherwise, there are many leves items they cannot make, since most items require certain mats from other classes. I think we can safely assume that, if someone wants to quickly level via leves, they are probably NOT leveling all classes together slowly, and they WILL buy mats. And so, massively doing leves is a gil-draining way of leveling instead of gil-earning. This is actually somewhat independent of what point in the expansion cycle they do these.

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That's why I think a lot of players who are only doing the leve route tend to stick with ALC or CUL as solo jobs. Those have very little reliance on the other DoH classes for the items generally used in leve spam.

Remember that time is also Gil. Leves are much more XP, and thus time, efficient per-craft than collectable turn ins. This means you are spending less time macroing (If you can even macro a collectable of an appropriate level, which you might not be able to do without further investments into gear you don't need to make for leves) and thus can do more productive things than leveling crafters gil wise, and you can also start profiting off higher level crafts sooner, which matters when even profitable options on the MB tend to have a low daily trade volume and thus your daily profit tends to be capped.

Low material costs are over-valued. What you should actually care about is your ROI and the rate of return.

For me, even as a profit motivated crafter, the difference is night and day in both those categories, and I don't ever use collectables to level, even if I want to grind materia its just so much more efficient to use a few leves to cap for an expansion in a few minutes, and then get materia with end game gear, abilities, and equipment, not to mention the fact that its better to maintain a diverse inventory and getting faster access to all the items on an expansion drop is worth it for its own sake while they are still selling high.

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

Remember that time is also Gil. Leves are much more XP, and thus time, efficient per-craft than collectable turn ins. This means you are spending less time macroing (If you can even macro a collectable of an appropriate level, which you might not be able to do without further investments into gear you don't need to make for leves) and thus can do more productive things than leveling crafters gil wise, and you can also start profiting off higher level crafts sooner, which matters when even profitable options on the MB tend to have a low daily trade volume and thus your daily profit tends to be capped.

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Are leves items easier to make than collectables these days? I always merely relied on previous expansion's endgame BiS set to go through all 10 level of a new expansion, and I didn't recall encountering anything difficult along the way of leveling. I just quickly wrote up some macros and autocraft everything.

I also tend to tell people not to rush to the endgame (unless you are at the beginning of an expansion or a patch). Because although you get a lot more choices of things to sell at lv 90, the endgame products are usually NOT as profitable as the leveling items (or the leves items themselves!). Personally, I have heard of too many stories of how people rush to level 90 by splurging everything they have, thinking they would make a fortune there, only to find lv 90 items competition to be too high and prices too low, and have to constantly play the undercutting war to be able to sell anything at all.

Time is money, but rushing to "invest" may or not not be a great idea unless you are very clear that there will be "good return" in the end. If you have only 2 million gil to spend, and you spend that 2 million to rush a class to lv 90 within 1 day with leves, I doubt you can make back 1 million by selling lv 90 items within another 2 days. It's really a risky investment.

Instead, I'd recommend taking it slower... spend leves on leveling gatherers instead of crafters, gather own mats and level up retainers, use retainers to further gather more mats, massively craft HQ ingots/lumbers from raw mats, partially sell some on MB, use some for leves, lower quality of the rest of the HQ ingots/lumbers, and use them to go through crafting log to make HQ products, sell some HQ products and use some for leves/collectables/daily GC provision missions. I really think this will be a much safer investment with good returns for novice crafters.

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

For me, even as a profit motivated crafter, the difference is night and day in both those categories, and I don't ever use collectables to level, even if I want to grind materia its just so much more efficient to use a few leves to cap for an expansion in a few minutes, and then get materia with end game gear, abilities, and equipment, not to mention the fact that its better to maintain a diverse inventory and getting faster access to all the items on an expansion drop is worth it for its own sake while they are still selling high.

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I think it will work really well for someone who is familiar with the whole crafting and market game. When you get into factory mode to craft at lv 90, spiritbonding can be a much more effective way to earn materia than collectables. But not everyone is hardworking. I am one of the lazy ones, and I rarely go all out to massively craft things at level 90 for gil.

i would like to able turning in completed levequest in each area where youre doing them , even you accepted in different place . if that makes sense :D mostly works for DoL maybe for battle ones.

and please .. even you dont speak about that . i would love to have new battle levequest after level 60 :c

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Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

Are leves items easier to make than collectables these days?

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Recipes of the same level are roughly the same difficulty between leve items and collectables.

Both are significantly easier than Restoration recipes.

I've got a really easy to cover my costs when leveling a new alt - make duplicates of items I need for quests and leves (and sometimes GC supply missions). If I need an item for one of those things, I know another player is going to need them as well and it rarely takes long for a buyer to appear. If the crafting materials are getting sold in large stacks, a lot of times the item will be cheaper than the stacks.

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Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

Are leves items easier to make than collectables these days? I always merely relied on previous expansion's endgame BiS set to go through all 10 level of a new expansion, and I didn't recall encountering anything difficult along the way of leveling. I just quickly wrote up some macros and autocraft everything.

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They are the same difficulty, so if your rocking BIS gear from the last expansion you can probably still get to 90 running macros without any new gear or trouble, but if your a new crafter or leveling an alt gear is a real issue for macro crafting in a new patch. In that case you need to manually craft, and Leves will give double the XP generally of an equivalent max collectability collectable.

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Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

I also tend to tell people not to rush to the endgame (unless you are at the beginning of an expansion or a patch)....

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It heavily depends on what your doing. At the end of the day though its way more about how many items you can push rather than the individual profit margin. It doesn't matter if there is a niche item that has a 500k profit margin at level 40-whatever compared to end game items that have a profit margin of say... 30k if it sells once a week while you can sell 10 a day of the end game item, unless your unable to leverage the capital to trade at market capacity of course, or want to passively trade. And of course bankrupting yourself to level is not a good idea, I agree, but at the same time it is really a question of if getting the change you get from collectables is worth your time or not. If you can double the rate at which you level all your classes you could skip gear tiers much more easily and get to making the stuff you want.

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Originally Posted by Caimie_Tsukino

I think it will work really well for someone who is familiar with the whole crafting and market game. When you get into factory mode to craft at lv 90, spiritbonding can be a much more effective way to earn materia than collectables. But not everyone is hardworking. I am one of the lazy ones, and I rarely go all out to massively craft things at level 90 for gil.

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It is more about being cognizant of your goals. A lot of crafters prioritize 'saving money' rather than 'earning money.' Collectables can very much be worth it but there is a good place for mass levequests too (most experienced crafters probably should be using them to level when the expansion hits, for example, and levekits sent to an alt or player your helping are the best way to level them) that would make a QOL turn in feature very appreciated.