Yep. Title.
I'm not sure if it's common for mains to call out their job for being too strong, but Ninja's absurd right now. There's really no reason for it to be as strong as it is.
Mug is thematically worthless for Ninja as a party buff, and it deviates from Trick being a core, identifying ability for the job. Trick has always been our iconic party buff; messing with this is a loss all around, for both people who play Ninja and people who play with Ninjas.
Ninja numbers have been ticking up because the job is absurdly overtuned right now -- not because the changes were a net positive. I promise you, if you nerfed Ninja to the point where it was a mid-tier melee job, the number of people playing it would plummet.
Please, for the love of god, fix my job so I can have fun in this game again. 6.05 Ninja was just fine.
The Ninja Changes Still Suck, and The Job Needs a Nerf
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07-06-2022, 08:52 AMaloneatseaThe Ninja Changes Still Suck, and The Job Needs a Nerf
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07-06-2022, 09:46 AMKolsykol
Tbh neither Mug nor Trick Attack thematically make sense to me as a target damage buff, I think they should rename Trick Attack to '' Armor Crush '' and give it a new animation ( or keep the same I guess ) and make it the target damage buff.
And then rename current Armor Crush to Trick Attack or something instead.
Like why is Armor Crush extending a buff that makes you attack faster and why is Trick Attack the dmg thing lol?
Or even bring back Sneak Attack maybe as the dmg buff even that would make more sense.
I dunno why this would make you not play NIN tho or why this would make you '' not have fun in the game '', it's very overly dramatic and you don't even have NIN leveled up on your character.
If it's an alt account then well, I wonder why so many people are supposedly posting from alt accounts.
I don't think that we need to be so overly dramatic tho, NIN is great atm some thematical issues isn't ruining the Job.
Mug as party dmg isn't as fun imo tho but it's still effectively the same gameplay-wise.
I think it gets into the larger issue of the dreaded 2 min burst window.
I kinda miss the days tbh of utility, I mean I guess I kinda don't want TP back lol.
But I still kinda miss it on some level and enmity being a bit harder to manage, I liked that Tanks for example had a separate combo finisher for Enmity and that NIN had tools to help. -
07-06-2022, 05:38 PMbutchersblock
Here you go again stalking someone's lodestone to try to discredit their views. I already explained to you how raiders will often run at least 2 characters for split clears, but you're somehow doing this shit again in a different post. The poster clearly shows a detailed understanding of the job through their posts, and you're arguing about pedantics with armor crush and trick attack not having cool... ability names of all things.
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07-06-2022, 05:41 PMbutchersblockIt's very disappointing to me how people fail to understand how this issue affects other jobs too. Though, if I were to guess - it was by design and they will not deviate from this. I can kind of see 60/90/120 raid buffs being awkward for DSR because of the fight's design, but it's just not a good compromise.Quote:
Originally Posted by aloneatsea
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07-07-2022, 04:33 AMKolsykolIt literally says on their profile '' Ninja lvl 70 ''.Quote:
Originally Posted by butchersblock
I wasn't discrediting their view if you actually read what I said which you clearly didn't.
I was for the most part agreeing with it but I think it's also very overly dramatic to act like the game is basically ruined because of this.
The OP is also arguing about thematics and whether something is or isn't iconic or not, so yes it's relevant.
I dunno how their post showcases a '' detailed understanding of their Job '' either, it's basically just '' I don't like Mug, Trick Attack was more fun ''.
That's just a personal opinion and one I agree with but I still think it was flawed.
I am aware that there are other gameplay related issues one could bring up with buff timings but the OP didn't do that.
I think this is just a wider issue than just NIN too like I said this has more to do with this obsession with the two minute window.
There are also other criticism I'd throw at Mug in that it's the least interesting party wide damage buff.
I guess it could be said that it enables Bunshin ( in the opener at least ) but imo Brotherhood and Arcane Circle are way more interesting imo even if effectively the same as a damage buff because at least Arcane Circle leads into Plentiful Harvest and Brotherhood into machinegun Chakras.
50 Ninki is bleh and boring, at least 60's instead of 120 was a tad bit more interesting.
If you're gonna get mad about people noticing that you don't have something you're talking about leveled up then you can at least post on your actual character if it truly is an alt or you can avoid being overly dramatic.
I know that people can have more than one character but those characters will typically have stuff leveled up too instead of not having anything.
Edit: Also we had infamous MNK trolls leading up to SHB on this forum, including people admitting to not playing MNK but still arguing with MNK mains and wildly making claims.
It's not uncommon at all that people go on about things they don't play.
I don't think that the OP is a troll at all, but it's a bit weird to act like the sky is falling or whatever while posting on a character that don't have said Job even leveled up and it's also what those people did too.
But who the hell am I kidding, melodrama is apparently what this forum is for and then people wonder why the devs avoid the forum and feedback goes unheard... -
07-09-2022, 01:27 AMEquitable_RemedyWhile it's unpopular on this forum to like anything about FF14, I disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by aloneatsea
NIN is still my favorite job in the game, and I'm having more fun with it now that I did in ShB.
- I think that splitting two-minute raid burst buff from the one-minute personal burst buff was a good idea and will make balancing both easier in the future. One of the things that I really like about NIN is the busy burst window followed by relative chill until the next burst, along with having one-minute burst phases.
- Admittedly, I don't understand why people are seemingly so bent out of shape about Mug and Trick attack. Is the arrangement of the letters really that big of a deal? You have a one-minute personal buff and a two-minute raid buff. You used to have a one minute raid buff. I find the former to be more interesting than the latter.
- Phantom Kamaitachi is one of my favorite buttons to press in its current iteration—that has a lot to do with liking the idea of using the clone to make an attack and the sweet animation. I also like (in moderation) buttons that turn into other buttons. I initially kind of hated this ability, but I realized that it felt awkward because I was mentally treating it like an oGCD. Once I wrapped my head around it being a GCD, it feels great.
- I had mixed feelings about the initial implementation of Raiju. I didn't love the animation lock, and I really didn't love doing 6 Raijus in a row. That being said, I kind of liked the idea of the combo and comboing weaponskills off ninjutsu. Now, I think that it's in a decent place—I like using the gap closer to chidori in after an AOE, but it probably doesn't justify a button. With it's sweet animation, good damage, and combo off of Raiton, Raiju is definitely a button that I like to hit.
- Huraijin is just a nice quality of life upgrade. Part of me feels like it isn't worth a whole button, but another part is happy that it's there whenever I have to recover from a death or something. (Give us this or armor crush at a much lower level, though.)
- The shorter duration of doton and that addition of Hollow Nozuchi makes AOE more fun in dungeons. Hollow Nozuchi adds a little AOE interaction with other parts of the kit, which is a nice touch.
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07-09-2022, 02:05 AMbutchersblockSo, are your concerns over Kaiten just melodrama too? How is the removal of a core ability from one job that much more important, than the removal of a raid buff, the last of its kind, that affects every single player in the party?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolsykol
"I don't think that the OP is a troll at all, but it's a bit weird to act like the sky is falling or whatever while posting on a character that don't have said Job even leveled up"
then check his post history? You can clearly tell from what their previous numerous post that they understand the job far more than you do. -
07-09-2022, 02:08 AMbutchersblockWoah dude, you're so special and quirky. Damn, this really shows how much of a mindless sheep everyone here with complaints is, how dare they not like the idea of jobs having almost nothing to do outside 2 minute windows! (even though Yoshida himself prior to Endwalker said everything being on a 2 min cd would be boring, giving us the impression that they wouldn't do that)Quote:
Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy
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07-09-2022, 05:03 AMEquitable_RemedyI didn't say (or even imply) any of these things.Quote:
Originally Posted by butchersblock
NIN literally has a one-minute burst window that happens outside of two-minute burst windows.Quote:
Originally Posted by butchersblock
Further, ShB NIN was no different with respect to being less busy outside of burst windows—the OP was about "changes" to the job. In fact, I see it as a virtue of the job, having a different pacing than other melee—variety in playstyle between jobs is good.
Also, one of the complaints about EW NIN is that you can't fit every Bhavacakra in burst windows, but that also means that you have another button to press outside of burst windows (which I view as a benefit). -
07-09-2022, 05:53 AMbutchersblockYou implied it with your continuous passive aggressive comments towards the influx of posters unhappy with the game's direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy
"NIN literally has a one-minute burst window that happens outside of two-minute burst windows." - Just how hard is it to grasp that not having a 1 minute window anymore makes it so there's nothing for Ninja's party members to play around? There is no longer any thought going into gameplay outside two minute windows, which only happens around 4 times per encounter.
About the bhavacakra thing - one of the fantasies of the job is is fitting every last bit of resource you have into your burst window, it's understandable why people wouldn't want to be forced to put the bhava outside trick. And no, it's not "another button to press outside of burst windows." You literally press it right before trick, that's not what people mean when they ask for things to do outside burst windows. -
07-09-2022, 06:34 AMDzianI said something like this back in heavens ward... I think was as if they mixed the names up on dancing edge. Breaks a bosses armor and Lower slashing resistance..Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolsykol
and armor crush.. extend huton duration..
Would have made so much more sense had they just switched the names of those skills.
Trick attack used to be fine imo especially when you had to be in the right position to use it.. felt a bit more thematic. Critical attack that left the boss exposed for a few seconds. Exposed boss takes more damage...
Still not a fan of the gcd madras though..justnfeels clunky..
But even as an eu player I never had lag when the data centre was east coast... then they moved it and welllllll... -
07-09-2022, 09:47 AMQuorI've heard it was a translation/localization error that just got left as-is. If you think about it, it makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolsykol
Armor Crush was supposed to be the slashing debuff. Makes sense; crush the armor, make the enemy more vulnerable to damage.
Aeolian edge (Aeolian coming from Aeolus of the Aeneid, the being known as the "keeper of the winds") was supposed to refresh your Huton duration. Makes sense since the wind-themed attack would boost the wind-themed speed buff.
Somehow those got switched and they....just left it that way, for some reason. -
07-09-2022, 09:49 AMEquitable_RemedyI'm sorry that you read it that way. All I can say is that I literally didn't write any of that, nor did I intend to connote any of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by butchersblock
Quote:
Originally Posted by butchersblock
So, your concern isn't that NIN doesn't have a one-minute burst window (ie something to do outside of a two-minute burst window)—as it might appear from the first quote—but that other jobs don't have one-minute burst windows? If that's the criticism, I would argue that that is about changes to other jobs rather than NIN. Having Trick Attack and Mug as one- and two-minute debuffs means that that the raid debuff lines up with the two-minute raid bursts and the Trick Attack debuff lines up with the one-minute NIN bursts.Quote:
Originally Posted by butchersblock
Put another way, not liking two-minute raid burst windows is a fine criticism of FF14 (not one I share, but quite fair), but an odd criticism of NIN which is exactly a class that still has a one-minute burst (and a bigger two-minute burst to play with the rest of the raid).
Quote:
Originally Posted by butchersblock
I'm not sure what to take from these two points taken together. Should every last bit of resource go into the burst window (the second quote) or not go into the burst window (the first quote)?Quote:
Originally Posted by butchersblock
I grant you that, if you ignore some of the buttons that get pressed outside of burst windows, there are fewer buttons that get pressed outside of burst windows.Quote:
Originally Posted by butchersblock
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07-11-2022, 01:13 AMAmozite
Why oh why did they have to make Mug the raid buff, I liked how unique NIN was having a raid buff every minute but now it's basically the same thing as Embolden/Divination just like most of the tank cooldowns are the same.
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07-12-2022, 02:44 AMRyuuZero
I think the New Trick Attack has the same Problem as Old Disembowel.. so predictably Trick Attack will become a self-buff maybe before 7.0
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07-12-2022, 03:09 AMgeorge357nerf
i have worked and leveled every job in this game so everyone has its good points and bad ones ninja is a decent job even worked out the different magic and attack rotations so with all these jobs to choose from if your is not working right pick another till they fix that one.
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07-12-2022, 09:16 AMShurrikhanWhich has what, specifically, to do with the 6.1 changes? Not a single point you mentioned was changed between 6.08 and 6.1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy
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07-12-2022, 09:19 AMShurrikhanI mean, we can look up the other language's versions for "Armor Crush" right off the main site...Quote:
Originally Posted by Quor
In Japanese, Armor Crush is 強甲破点突, respectively [Strong] [Armor/Shell] [Break/Destruction/Crush] [Point] [Stab/Skewer].
In French, it's Perce-armure.
In German, it's Harnischbrecher. (In German, "harnisch", or harness, is a general word for body armor; "brecher" should be self-explanatory.)
_____________
Trick Attack in Japanese, meanwhile, is だまし討ち (Sneak Attack / Trick Attack / Foul Play (in politics/social murder)). The French and German are likewise basically cognates for Trick Attack. -
07-13-2022, 01:07 PMaloneatsea
Oh, hey, I came back and there's a ton of replies. Nice! Glad to see this kicked up some discussion after a drought of interest in the job.
I'm sorry that it wasn't painfully obvious that this isn't the character that I raid on, but to make it clear: I don't raid on this character. I live in Oceania, and levelled this character partially to check out the Materia scene, but was ultimately disappointed and returned to Primal for raiding. I use this character for socialising and playing with friends.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolsykol
I actually agree with you on Armour Crush being an odd name for an ability that refreshes Huton, but I disagree on Trick Attack being weird. I've said this before, but Trick Attack evokes, at least to me, the image of a "dirty trick" like throwing sand in someone's eyes mid-fight to open up a weak spot. Ninjas aren't a Strength class, so the buff being on an ability called Armour Crush gives the wrong impression.
As for why this would stop me having fun in the game -- sheesh, I dunno chief, I specifically chose this job because it had a unique party buff and I really enjoyed offering that kind of utility? Maybe because changing Mug into a party buff made the usage of our ninki gainer much more strict, which made the rotation even worse than it already was? If you really want me to break it down, I've made a couple good threads going into painful detail about the problems these changes have caused.
I won't address your other concerns as they're irrelevant to my topic -- which is only concerned about the recent changes in 6.1 which have changed Mug into the party buff for some ungodly reason. I didn't play 14 before Shadowbringers, so I don't have any useful commentary to add there, either.
I think you've gravely misunderstood the intent of my post. I really enjoyed the vast majority of changes made in 6.0 -- the inclusion of Phantom Kamaitachi especially. Raijus I'm neutral on. However, I'm incredibly unhappy about the changes to Trick and Mug as of Patch 6.1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy
Personally, I don't think that neutering a job's point of difference is worthwhile to make balancing marginally better. Given Ninja is stronger than ever, I'd say they're failing in all regards on that front. As for why people get bent out of shape -- Trick Attack was the last one-minute party buff in the game. Removing it completely removes a unique kind of party-specific optimisation that there is no substitute for. It makes the game more samey, both for Ninjas and people who play with Ninjas. Not to mention... this is a change to an ability which has functioned almost identically from ARR to EW. Trick Attack has always been a back positional party buff activated by Suiton. It's power and duration has been adjusted (and, I'm told, it used to not apply the vuln up if you missed the positional lol) but the core function of the ability hasn't changed. Why change it now? It wasn't broken, and didn't need fixing.
The Doton changes were just an extra fuck-you to Ninjas, in my opinion. I'm not going to cry about it being gone, but it was such a minor little piece of optimisation to do, and barely affected anyone. I guess tanks who hate doing a fight slightly different for the first thirty seconds of a fight are winning? -
07-19-2022, 09:08 AMaloneatseaQuote:
Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy
I re-read this, and wanted to elaborate on the point that's being missed here.
The whole concept of a 'party buff' creates interplay between different classes. A selfish class can pool resources in order to deliberately spend them during buff windows to maximise damage output. In Shadowbringers, we had a variety of buffs provided by different classes on 90s, 1min, 2min, 3min etc timers. While this meant that certain combinations of classes were much stronger than other combinations, it meant that oftentimes no two parties were the same, and how you played your class might differ from party to party, based on your composition. The opportunity for party-specific optimisation was there, increasing replayability.
In Endwalker, before 6.1, the odd-buff timers were removed, and every major party buff with the exception of Trick Attack was moved to the two-minute mark. While this heavily streamlines things and creates strong alignment between burst, reducing jank in classes that struggle to be compatible, it also greatly reduces that party-specific complexity I mentioned before. This was somewhat palatable given that we still had Trick Attack, which provided a means for classes with excess resources to optimise and spend around. Now, I don't play Reaper at a high level; this is information I gleaned from speaking with a friend I used to raid with -- but Reaper will get about three Enshroud windows per 2 minute window. Two of these can fit in your standard two-minute party buff, but the third one cannot. The existence of Trick Attack as a one-minute party buff meant that Reapers playing in a party with a Ninja are incentivised to use their excess Enshroud window during Trick.
Removing Trick Attack as a one-minute party buff removes this interplay, and removes any drive or direction for spending this excess Enshroud window. It literally doesn't matter anymore when that Reaper uses their third Enshroud, because there's nothing to gain ion any situation.
This is what we mean when we say that other classes are losing out on being able to play around the one-minute window. It's not that other classes have suddenly stopped having one-minute burst -- it's that there's no longer a reason for anyone to have one-mintue burst. It doesn't matter anymore, when it used to matter. There used to be more complexity.
We're upset because that little bit of complexity has been taken away from us, and I really do feel that high-end gameplay suffers for it. -
07-19-2022, 04:27 PMbutchersblock
Basically what aloneatsea detailed here. Some people act like it's nothing but for high end raiders this was a big part of raiding. This isn't some "sky is falling" overreaction, the high end gameplay significantly suffers because of the tha direction
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07-19-2022, 04:47 PMVatom
I just miss dancing edge and shadow fang animations
aeolian edge bores me and armor crush feels like its a break in momentum (in a immersion look to me) -
07-20-2022, 12:22 AMQuorYes, I'm aware. By "error" I mean they got an A = B situation instead of A = A. Armor Crush would make total sense as the slashing debuff that NIN once had, while Aeolian Edge would make total sense, being a wind-inspired name, as the Huton extender. Somehow, at some point in time during localization and translating, the wires got crossed and we got what we have now, and SE left it be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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07-20-2022, 08:57 AMShurrikhanArmor Crush... doesn't slash, though. By appearance, it makes a tiny, pierceable hole in enemy defenses, nothing exploitable by slashing attacks. It was also added well after Dancing Edge (a skill that did, by appearance, seem to cut large swaths into the enemy with forceful strikes --an uppercut before two downward slices, each with bodyweight behind them) had already taken the Slashing niche, and was a better fit for it in terms of animation. Even Shadowfang's animation arguably fit better as a means of applying a Slashing Resistance Down debuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quor
But yes, if they had already known they wanted a Huton-extender, then starting with Dancing Edge as the direct damage nuke, supplying Armor Crush as the vuln debuff, and the attaching Huton-extension to Aeolian Edge would have made a bit more sense.
That said, the simplest fact of the matter is that, whether the animation was left over from 2.4 or not, they introduced an animation out of place for both its effects and its surrounding motifs. It looks more Rogue than NIN, and comparatively quite underwhelming. That's not to say you can't have a piercing strike --say, Kamaitachinotsuki or Wind Spine-- but it should fit the motifs of the other animations, especially Gust Blade before it. Yet, as noted above:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vatom
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07-26-2022, 11:31 PMaloneatseaQuote:
Originally Posted by Quor
I can't tell if I'm missing something, or...
Shurrikhan mentions that Trick Attack's japanese name translates as Sneak Attack or Trick Attack, and that Armor Crush's japanese name also translates to a similar meaning as the english name. How is this an A = B situation? It seems quite A = A to me. Your gripe is with the naming of the ability in general, not the localisation.
That said, I largely agree with the sentiment that Armour Crush feels like an odd ability choice with which to refresh Huton. Aeolian Edge does seem like a much better choice. That said, I do love Armor Crush's animation, and would hate to see it go like other GCDs (rip Shadowfang...).
I did find the suggestion of Huton being refreshed by Aeolian Edge to be quite interesting. SE seems dead-set on paring down buttons to make way for new ones, and one of the bigger suggestions for this is to make 1-2-3 combos a single button ala PVP. This doesn't work for jobs with branching combinations like Ninja -- but if we removed Armour Crush, this becomes an option.
I wonder what a Ninja with an Aeolian Edge that refreshed Huton by 10s, and no Armour Crush would look like? It takes ~6 1/2 seconds to cycle your 1-2-3 combo if Huton is active, meaning you'd gain 3 1/2 seconds of Huton each 1-2-3 cycle. Assuming (generously) that you're cycling your GCDs for 45s, and then bursting (i.e. not refreshing Huton) for 15s, you would gain ~24.5 seconds of Huton a minute, and lose ~15s of Huton a minute by bursting. In two-minute windows this would be much more severe, as your burst lasts longer which means you're spending less time refreshing Huton.
I don't know if this would be interesting, but it might actually put pressure on managing Huton and minimising downtime. If you disconnect for more than ~9s a minute, you run the risk of Huton dropping entirely.
I don't think I recommend as an option, but it's interesting to think about. I like the idea of Huton being a little more pressured to manage -- or at least a little more flexible. Bring back the 70s Huton cap, please... -
07-27-2022, 02:40 AMbutchersblock
Speaking of animations, if there's anything I miss, it's Assassinate.
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07-28-2022, 04:19 AMQuorI mean, if you really want to split hairs, sure. There are more than a handful of animations in this game that don't make "sense" but you can easily argue that shattering armor with a concentrated strike ("puncturing it") would render a target vulnerable to all kinds of physical trauma, not simply slashing damage. More to the point though I think, regardless of animation, it came down to a simple balancing act; you had three melee dps each with their own debuff. MNK debuffed blunt, DRG debuffed piercing and NIN ultimately debuffed slashing. Each melee dps had a debuff that enhanced their own damage and by virtue of being a slashing-based dps, NIN was going to get a slashing debuff and animations be damned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Not sure where that's coming from. I was referring specifically to Armor Crush and Aeolian edge having possibly been switched at some point in time during development such that the two just don't make all that much sense, thematically. That's all I was referring to.Quote:
Originally Posted by aloneatsea
To be clear, I only relayed this anecdote because it was an interesting explanation of something I had seen people bring up in response to the mild awkwardness of "Armor Crush" being the thing that extends Huton duration. That's it. It's just a story. You disagree, that's fine, I'm just the messenger here. -
08-04-2022, 11:07 AMaloneatseaQuote:
Originally Posted by butchersblock
Well, it's technically still there, if you head back to do some ARR synced content...
I do miss it in endgae, though. I loved watching my character vanish to jump on the head of the huge boss in the first Nier raid... it was so silly, yet kinda cool at the same time. Don't miss the animation lock, though.