...is honestly a joke.
WAR/SMN buffs? Who asked?
No WHM nerfs?
A practically nonexistent NIN nerf?
Even BLM pretty much just got a side-grade rather than a real nerf to its ridiculous Ice Mage playstyle.
BRD and GNB are still awkward to play, DNC is still crying itself to sleep, SGE is still very confused as to why it has effectively no protective capability and no crowd control.
Where are the role queues/party comp restrictions? I'm tired of being saddled with 4 DPS while the enemy team has a WHM+WAR--or on the other hand, having to play with 2 tanks+2healers and being unable to kill anyone due to lack of damage.
Can squex please hire a real balance team that actually knows what they're doing, and knows the weight of being able to patch only once every 2-3mo? If they want any sort of longevity for the game mode, I really hope they put more effort into balancing it. Otherwise, this will just end up as Feast 2.0, with every season dying 2 weeks after reset because nobody wants to play the mode outside of reaching rewards.
CC balance
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07-06-2022, 02:19 AMMyrha_LhlalhevaCC balance
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07-06-2022, 03:09 AMAtmaweapon510
BLM got a huge nerf to ice mage. 50% less duration at max stacks and not stunning below 3 stacks is huge. It also means that Fire becomes more attractive to superflare compared to ice when under 3 stacks since it gets more out of the first stack.
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07-06-2022, 04:39 AMPetite
Replies in blue:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva
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07-06-2022, 07:16 AMMyrha_Lhlalheva
Alright that last bit is fair, I admit I was pretty heated. But let's talk about the other stuff, if you don't mind.
>WAR/SMN
Sure, the changes to the individual abilities might be justified in a vacuum, but my point is that those jobs didn't need any help to begin with. I know plenty of people who were already confused at the 6.15 SMN buffs.
>NIN
I'm not saying that a reset reduction isn't enough. I honestly couldn't care less about the reset timer--that was never the main problem with Seiton, or even NIN as a whole. <=50% HP execution through Guard with 20y range? That's just too much. NIN has too much capability in too many areas, and it doesn't even make up for it by being the jack of all trades. Many of its tools are best-in-class for what they do. It's practically not even a melee job--it's a bursty caster assassin with area denial, damage mitigation, and unmatched mobility. Everybody knows NIN is one of the strongest jobs, and yet all it gets is a little slap on the wrist.
>BLM
I see where you're coming from, but in my eyes, a 2s multi-target Heavy is more impactful than a 1s micro-stun. The significant teamfight impact of an AoE Heavy is precisely why they took it away from Nightwing, and AST's Gravity. I understand that they took some strength off the top end of Umbral Ice, but the slightly upwards side-grade on the low end more than makes up for it.
>DNC
Being the red-headed step child of the ranged physical DPS with its 15y range instant casts has left it stranded awkwardly between melee jobs and ranged jobs. I don't think that simple potency adjustments will solve any of its issues, much like GNB.
>SGE
I can see DRG not needing cc, but SGE is tied for squishiest job + it has to expose itself to dangerous sightlines in order to cast. Which is fine, but it's frustrating that it has next to no options to peel for itself when the inevitable gank occurs, especially given the other healers' options (Miracle of Nature, Gravity, SCH's significantly greater protective capability). Kardia is awkward to use and rather underpowered; the skill floor is too high for little return. I don't understand why it doesn't proc on any casts besides Dosis, given how its PvE counterpart behaves. It's pretty much just for Toxikon II uptime. The Pneuma shield also behaves clunkily with server ticks, and universal Recuperate means that the healing is almost always wasted. Mesotes also has a high skill floor, and a difficult-to-maximize return. On the other hand, it's very easy to waste or misplace it--or to get knocked out of it and bursted by MCH/MNK, which I've seen more and more often lately.
Obviously I'm biased as a SGE main, but it truly feels like one of the weakest jobs--or more accurately, one of the most difficult to do well with. I think a single-tgt Heavy on Phlegma and more/stronger Kardia procs isn't too much to ask. I'll gladly trade away some of its big AoE damage in exchange for more survivability and better tools to augment my team. -
07-06-2022, 07:25 AMGserpentWAR probably needed a touch up here or there. SMN definitely needed a little help since they were largely outclassed by BLM in most aspects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva
WHM is fine. It doesn't need any changes whatsoever.
NIN is fine. If it needs any changes, they could nerf Huton. But forcing NIN to burn mudra on defense guts their damage output, so I don't think it really needs nerfs.
BLM nerfs were pretty steep. Reduced shield on Burst and you no longer stun until 3 stacks on ice, both of which are substantial. Might see more SMN now.
BRD is awkward to play? Since when? It works great. GNB is awkward in the sense that you aren't guaranteed to have all three options for your special skill/Hypervelocity, but it's still quite effective as-is... just probably not what we'd all like it to be.
DNC is very strong, if it has at least one competent DPS player on the team. The 6.18 buffs will make it a little less reliant on needing a good teammate. SGE doesn't have defenses because it has some of the highest AOE burst damage in the game and a powerful buff as part of that burst.
Role/comp restrictions are not necessary. Teams with 4 or 5 DPS have the ability to obliterate people without needing to expend all of their resources; if you're failing to get kills, your team isn't switching targets or focusing targets properly. Teams with 4 or 5 tanks/heals have the ability to just grind the other team to death and win via attrition. If you're failing to secure kills or avoid deaths to burst, it's because your team isn't coordinating effectively or focusing targets properly. -
07-06-2022, 07:58 AMMyon88
Summoner is still the weakest caster by virtue of not having any hard cc. In contrast to rdm with white resolution, and blm that needs no explanation. It absolutely needed that fester buff as most of its damage is just passive aoe pressure and it has miserable ability to confirm kills - the thing that really matters.
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07-06-2022, 08:08 AMPetite>WAR/SMNQuote:
Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva
my point is that those jobs didn't need any help to begin with.
I know, but I strongly believe Orogeny and Fester's potencies are now where they should have been from the start.
MCH on the other hand just keeps getting away with new buffs. That's the job that truly didn’t need any help to begin with. They have always outshined the other PhysR.
Just so everyone is aware: Bishop Autoturret now has a 24K AOE barrier potential; insane when contesting the crystal.
>NIN
I know most people would like to see NIN's LB reworked differently, but this change is a decent step forward considering 6.18 wasn't a major patch.
>BLM
I see where you're coming from, but in my eyes, a 2s multi-target Heavy is more impactful than a 1s micro-stun.
Thing is that the 1s stuns were excellent at baiting away Purify. When in trouble you don't have time to verify how long debuffs last and if you Purified too late on that 1s you wouldn't gain Resilience.
2s heavies are much more fair for a lvl1 3K damage Superflare usage.
>DNC
Being the red-headed step child of the ranged physical DPS with its 15y range instant casts has left it stranded awkwardly between melee jobs and ranged jobs.
DNC would be a pretty unfair kiter if it wasn't limited to 15y. SE purposely made DNC tanky because you are mean't to do Honing Dance drive-bys.
- 54K HP pool (more than all ranged jobs);
- Fan Dance's 10% damage reduction;
- 20% damage reduction while in Honing Dance;
- 4 charges of En Avant.
Play DNC more like you would play NIN and you'll find it much more satisfying:
Prepare Saber Dance > Starfall Dance > Honing Dance > spam Saber Dance so it goes off with Honing Ovation > use Fan Dance to add to your burst and help mitigate damage on your retreat > En Avant away.
(Don't overlap Fan Dance with Honing Dance. The percentages aren't additive).
Now all DNC needs is access to Purify while in Honing Dance and a tweak to their LB.
>SGE
has next to no options to peel for itself
Having watched a lot of Lucia Caritas' streams (probably Primal's best SGE) they definitely don't look easy to kill. You gotta abuse Icarus.
I'd recommend getting in touch with them. They stream a lot and reply to chat all the time. -
07-06-2022, 10:22 AMMyrha_Lhlalheva
100% agree with you on MCH, I forgot to bring that up. I don't know why it keeps getting quietly buffed--I suspected it'd start to get overbearing this patch and it looks like it has.
As for SGE tech, I'm by no means an easy to kill SGE either. But like everything else about its kit, the skill floor necessary to survive is so high compared to other jobs, for very little safety in exchange. I can Icarus around and juggle Kardia with the best of them, but at the end of the day if a MNK or NIN really wants me dead, I'm going to die every time. Maybe I should've led up front with some context, but I'm not some random trash hardstuck gold sage player. I hit Crystal in ~75 wins last season and consistently played with Top 100/Top 30's in my games. -
07-06-2022, 11:08 AMGserpentSMN doesn't need hard CC. Mountain Buster is a draw-in, bind, and heavy all in one package with a pretty short cooldown. Draw-in effects are *immensely* powerful. SMN's biggest issue is that Slipstream is just kind of... there. It's very rare to have it actually do anything meaningful because you can't directly place it and the safe area is quite large. Something needs to change with that skill. That's probably all SMN needs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myon88
Remember, SMN has the strongest buff in the game - it's literally giving Holy Sheltron to anyone they want. I don't think they need a stun when they instead bring an anti-burst buff like that. -
07-06-2022, 11:14 AMPetiteI'm not sure about NIN killing SGE easily, but I know MNK LB is still a 1 minute no-fun-allowed button against casters/healers. That's a big oof.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva
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07-06-2022, 03:40 PMMyon88I don't think they need a stun, but a silence on the donut portion of slipstream I would consider fair. It would actually serve its function as an area denial tool instead of a 4k dot which no one respects at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gserpent
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07-06-2022, 06:29 PMMyrha_LhlalhevaNIN can kill whoever they want if they put their mind to it. That job just has so many options. And if they're not solo killing me, Raiju more than ensures that their dive buddy can get the job done. Plus, having 48k max hp means it takes that much less effort to get me into <=50% Seiton execution range.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petite
I forgot to address this earlier, but when you said the NIN nerf was a "step in the right direction", that's exactly what I meant by respecting the weight of the long patch cycle. The mode and the season don't have the TIME for baby steps in the right direction. At this rate, it'll be a full year before jobs like NIN are addressed appropriately. If we have to live with a game state for 2-3mo, then the appropriate boldness and effort should be put into corrective measures when a job is clearly a huge over-performer. -
07-06-2022, 07:04 PMPetiteThinking back on it, you're right about your predicament. I just played against a good NIN and my DRG was shut down every 90s despite my best efforts at staying above 50% and avoid focus-fire. That NIN most likely thought I was my team's best hope and dedicated Seiton to me first and foremost. I get the feeling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva
Also, I realized matches are still heavily decided by which team gets the better BLM. Their damage is still absurd. -
07-07-2022, 11:23 AMGserpentSilence is definitely too much, especially if it would be AOE. I was thinking more like a 10% Slow effect or something. Or the donut would give your allies 10% Haste.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myon88
NIN is balanced. You need to pressure them into using mudras on defense. That's the primary method of dealing with them - not necessarily trying to kill them, but forcing them to use Meisui or Huton so they have less offense available. If they need any nerf, I'd increase Shukuchi cooldown to 20.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva
I wouldn't mind seeing Seiton changed to "deals damage equal to target's HP" under the threshold instead of just plain death, though. That would allow for more counter-play with mitigation, shields, etc to compensate for it (similar to how you can survive being Odin'd by SAM if you have shields.) If that would result in the skill being too weak, I'd change its operation to deal the base damage and *then* check for threshold instead of how it functions now (it either deals damage or executes depending on threshold.) -
07-07-2022, 01:57 PMRisvertasashi
I'd have asked for SMN buffs. But I knew everyone would rage about how it is in frontlines, even though it was too weak in CC.
And, there's a lot more healer diversity now. So I'm glad SE didn't listen to the "nerf WHM into the ground" crowd, among other things - people posting these sorts of threads clearly have no clue how to balance CC. -
07-07-2022, 02:35 PMSweetPete
I have fallen head over heels for Scholar. I thought it was the loser of the healers but I can admit I was totally wrong. I absolutely love scholar in pvp. It’s super support. Giving Astro a run for its money for sure. I love it. It’s perfect.
Would you guys change scholar in anyway? I think it’s fine the way it is. I actually want adlo to be instant cast in pve like it is in pvp to match Astros aspected benefic instant cast. -
07-08-2022, 02:32 AMGserpent
Nah, SCH is fine. AST is still top dog because its kit is honestly kind of overpowered, but at least they don't have AOE CC anymore. I would have preferred more nerfs to Aspected Benefic, though - it's the only thing that's really making AST overpowered. 10k raw healing on an instant action is simply too much, especially when it adds riders like a 4k regen or 4k shield. I think I'd just make it flat 8k healing + regen for the first use and flat 4k healing + shield for the double cast. It would still leave AST as the most powerful healer (that's still 12k raw healing plus 4k regen plus 4k shield for one instant GCD and an oGCD) but reducing the maximum raw healing to 24k instead of 40k would certainly bring them back into line with the other healers. Do that and combine it with the loss of AOE CC and I think the class would be fine.
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07-08-2022, 08:00 AMMyrha_LhlalhevaTools spent on a NIN are tools unavailable for the rest of their team. And besides, the sheer fact that NIN even has those sorts of options and survivability is exactly what makes it so strong. You yourself are admitting that actually killing them is often too much to ask. And the second you allocate your resources elsewhere, the NIN can just switch gears and go to town. That, or Seiton cleans up a close teamfight like no other ability in the game can do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gserpent
NIN has good single-tgt damage, aoe, burst, dps, cc, ranged options, (safe) mobility, and best-in-class safety through bunshin/huton. It's top of the dps food chain by miles in almost every category, only beaten out in aoe by a handful of casters.
MoN remains one of the best cc's in the game, and Purgation one of the best and fastest LBs. Just because people have discovered AST had a higher skill cap doesn't make WHM any less broken. I'd really like to see an API release, because idk what healer diversity you're seeing that I'm missing. Most everyone is still spamming WHM/AST, with a smattering of SCHs and maybe 5 Crystal SGE mains in the whole DC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
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07-08-2022, 09:04 AMRisvertasashiAh yes, the ol' "I'm going to list the things a job can do to make it sound OP!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva
But you hit the nail on the head with what you said in the second part: SGE needs a buff. AST, WHM, SCH are in good spots. Which is similar to where most roles are right now. -
07-08-2022, 09:24 AMMyrha_LhlalhevaI eagerly await the valid counter-argument to that absolute mess of a kitchen sink that NIN has available to it. Which other jobs can do all that? Or even approach that in terms of relative versatility + strength + safety? It sounds OP because it is OP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
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07-08-2022, 09:30 AMPetiteWhy do you feel the need to downplay NIN so much when you speak about it? It’s not oppressively strong, but it has no weaknesses besides getting clipped out of Stealth (not a big deal if you replace Assassinate with a Shuriken).Quote:
Originally Posted by Gserpent
Here are the other 4 melee DPS's weaknesses (and I'm sure I'm missing some):
DRG
• Is 25% more vulnerable under Gierskogul
• You can mitigate WWT if you manage to gap-close the DRG in time
• Horrid Roar has to hit people to work on them
• LB can be countered with a simple Guard
SAM
• Has cast times
• Chiten is short
• The 3s LB debuff window is short
• LB can be countered if you’re on the lookout for Chiten or have shields
MNK
• Must attack in melee range to work towards its burst
• Earth’s Reply can’t go off when CCed
RPR
• There’s a 2.94s gap between your last Reaping weaponskill and Communio which is ample time for you to LOS it and heal yourself
• LB can easily be messed with or guarded
Please don’t give me that "but NIN has the weakest sustained damage" argument you once gave before. That’s a BS argument when it concerns a 20s burst-specialized job that can deal up to 46.4K in 4s with a built-in 2s stun.
Besides that, NIN is incredibly versatile with access to:
• tons of ranged attacks;
• an instant 16k barrier;
• a self-HoT;
• a potent AOE DOT;
• an AOE slow;
• fire-and-forget mitigation with Bunshin;
• teleport into stealth;
• double-stun
• An LB which only the NIN itself can cause to fail.
Look, I love NIN, it’s my alt job in ranked CC. But let’s not BS each other out of fear of our jobs getting nerfed. SE only moves when there's mass outrage like in 6.11a anyway. -
07-09-2022, 12:17 AMKatoarThat's not true though. I had a monk in crystal top 100 ( the game was with people of top 100) it took him good 40s-50s to kill me but basically what happened was, I used card spread and macrocosmos on the party, run to the potions, heal with recuperate, used macrocosmos again and card spread, gravity, heal low hp allies, I ran out of mana at this point and had no way of healing myself back up and the party was still fighting so the mnk ended up killing me and I think they didn't use lb. I was playing astQuote:
Originally Posted by Petite
Point is, mnk can in fact kill healers if they focus solely on it. -
07-09-2022, 06:41 AMMyrha_Lhlalheva
I think you're slightly misreading there friend. Petite is only saying that the LB is an almost guaranteed death button, but they never said that MNK was incapable of killing people normally.
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07-09-2022, 07:12 AMGserpentNIN's sustained DPS is bottom of the barrel and their burst DPS is only middle of the pack. Their entire gimmick is in sticking around and constantly harassing and attritioning things down, their actual burst damage is very weak unless they fully commit to it... in which case they are literally the easiest DPS in the game to kill, because spending on burst means they can't spend on defense. Full burst requires Assassinate (uses Shukuchi), Hyosho (uses 1 mudra), and then either Goka applied beforehand (uses 1 mudra) or more commonly Raiju (costs 1 mudra) to force Purify and/or prevent healing if they don't have Purify. This means all three of their resources that can be used for defense have been committed to offense. They don't have a life steal skill, they don't have a separate DR or shielding button, they have absolutely nothing if they commit both mudras to offense. And if they *don't* commit everything to offense, their burst DPS is *also* bottom of the barrel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva
NIN is completely fine and doesn't really need any changes. The reason I say you don't need to commit to killing the NIN isn't because it's too hard, but because if you force them to burn their mudras on defense, their DPS output is less than a Scholar's for the next 10-15 seconds. You can literally just ignore them. Killing them would bring them back in the same 15 sec, except they'd have full mana and all cooldowns. Better to force out the cooldowns and then ignore them.
WHM is a little weak, actually. Purgation is good, but it's not nearly as good as you're making it out to be. You will typically be unable to hit more than maybe two people in high skill games with it unless you setup with your teammates (a draw-in combined with Purgation is very strong but that's a team comp thing, not WHM itself), they have the lowest DPS of any healer, and even their healing isn't that great - Cure 2 has a cast time (making it ineffective for healing people that are having to kite/LOS), and Cure 3 has a 20 sec cooldown. Seraph Strike is a good defensive button due to it only having 20 sec cd (compared to 30 sec for other healer defensives), but it requiring you to go into melee makes you vulnerable. Aquaveil is okay... it's basically a worse BRD Paean because it can't be used in advance.Quote:
MoN remains one of the best cc's in the game, and Purgation one of the best and fastest LBs. Just because people have discovered AST had a higher skill cap doesn't make WHM any less broken. I'd really like to see an API release, because idk what healer diversity you're seeing that I'm missing. Most everyone is still spamming WHM/AST, with a smattering of SCHs and maybe 5 Crystal SGE mains in the whole DC.
So that just leaves Poly, so you better believe Poly has to be amazing because it's carrying the entire class between Purgation uses. But it doesn't stop movement and it doesn't deal damage, so even then it's not really as great as people make it out to be. And once you force the poly out, the White Mage has minimal impact in the game until either Purgation or poly comes up again.
Compare that to AST, who does way more DPS than WHM, has effective CC on a much shorter timer (that also does damage), an arguably better defensive skill in Macrocosmos, and cards... and then every 2 minutes they get the exceptionally strong Celestial River? Nah, fam. WHM is garbage compared to AST right now. I actually think they should revert the Afflatus Misery potency nerf, and also let Aquaveil be used proactively (provides CC shield that will block the next CC, exactly like Warden's Paean.) Because right now, only AST and SCH are worth taking in high skill games (SGE isn't a healer, it's a DPS.) -
07-09-2022, 07:16 AMPetiteCaught in 4K. Guess you didn't read my post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gserpent
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petite
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07-09-2022, 08:39 AMGserpentMore like ignored that bit, because it's just someone being salty instead of dealing with actual facts. NIN *does* have low sustained DPS, and they also have low burst DPS if they're forced to use mudras defensively. Like, you play NIN right? You should know this. The best way to mitigate a NIN's impact is to just thump them. Every time they have to use Shukuchi or Huton to escape a beating, that's a massive chunk of damage taken off the table for 15 seconds. If they just used Assassinate you can very often force both mudras to be used defensively since they have no easy way of escaping melee at that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petite
No other class has to balance offense and defense in the same pool like that, except maybe GNB since D&J has a cooldown? Chiten, Roar, Crest, Riddle, etc... none of them cost anything to use. You can pop them without impacting your damage output at all. Meanwhile, every time NIN has to take a defensive action instead of an offensive one, their DPS drops like a rock. Bunshin is the only "free" defense button they have, but it's weak compared to every other melee's, and because the shadow duration is equal to the cooldown, NIN will almost always have used Bunshin well in advance of their attack so that they can stack the charges - you ideally want to throw out 5 buffed GCDs, Bunshin again, and throw out another 5 for maximum DPS. Sometimes that second Bunshin means you get to benefit from the shield, but more often than not it's wasted since the duration is only 10 sec. -
07-09-2022, 08:52 AMSarevok_Thordin
The NIN is simply put massively OP for reasons given before, but the stealth aspect of it makes it an entirely different kind of animal. The minute a nin gets attention in the middle of a fight, it can hop into stealth, remove targeting on it and then just come back in when those against it are trying to keep their damage going. They have tons of CC to keep a target constantly locked down and their damage isn't anything to sloth at.
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07-09-2022, 09:23 AMPetiteAgain, how is that a weakness unique to NIN? You're clearly playing on a different patch than the rest of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gserpent
Also calling me salty when all I'm doing is explaining how your arguments are wrong. Are you projecting or coping? -
07-09-2022, 09:29 AMPetiteDespite my post above and holding the opinion that it is the strongest melee DPS, I don't think NIN is OP. I just think it has no real weaknesses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarevok_Thordin
Uncovering them from Hide only penaizes their burst a little and the only LB counterplay is to keep yourself above 50% (easier said than done when all they have to do is press a button at the right time) -
07-09-2022, 10:05 AMMyrha_Lhlalheva
I think there's a very fine line between "best in class" and "OP job", and NIN does a pretty poor job of straddling that line sometimes. Then again, I'm very biased because I main the worst healer in the game.
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07-09-2022, 01:59 PMGserpentBecause no other class has to sacrifice DPS in order to gain defensive benefits. As I've said twice now, and you've ignored twice now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petite
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07-09-2022, 02:39 PMMyrha_LhlalhevaI think you're missing the point--or at least, my point in particular. The sheer fact that it has the option at all to survive like that, and that it requires that much attention to counteract--THAT'S what makes the job too powerful. Like I've said before, resources allocated to the NIN are resources unavailable for the rest of their team. Painting NIN's wide toolkit as a weakness and dilemma is kind of disingenuous. "Oh noo...what EVER will I choose? The ability to tank better than half the tanks? Or the ability to delete an enemy caster? I can't believe I can't have my cake and eat it too!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Gserpent
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07-09-2022, 04:05 PMGserpentWhat about MNK, who is inarguably the best class in the game at deleting casters, tanks better than most tanks, and doesn't have to choose between deleting casters and being tanky?Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva
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07-10-2022, 05:45 AMPetiteLet's just drop it. He's so bullheaded he's changing the subject to MNK lol. I'm out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myrha_Lhlalheva
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07-10-2022, 06:35 AMGserpentWhat? The subject is how NIN is unique among all melee (and all classes in general) in that it has to divide resources between offense and defense. MNK is absolutely relevant to the discussion because it's an example of exactly what I'm talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petite
That's not changing the subject, dude. It's providing support for my position.